Comments on: League defends touchdown calls for Texans, Panthers

By: Ron Webb

Ron Webb — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:48:12 +0000

The NFL is doing the absolutely worse thing they can do in this situation by defending all three calls. They need to acknowledge that these situations were not handled properly and state that they are administratively evaluating the interpretation of the rules and will take action to ensure consistency of enforcing the rules. Yes… such a statement is utter BS, but reading between the lines, you can see that they acknowledge that a mistake was made.
The worst offense of these three events (Murphy, Rosario and Jones) has to be the Murphy touchdown for the Raiders. It was called a touchdown on the field but reversed on review that was called from the booth. Murphy caught the ball while a defender was on his back, he turned, had both feet on the ground, had his thigh/butt on the ground, continued the rotation with one hand on the ground, then after his elbow hits the ground and the point of the ball touches the ground, the ball SHIFTS in his hand. Due to review, the call on the field was reversed.
In Rosarios case, while he was being tackled, there was quite a bit of movement of the ball in his hands. He clearly did not have full control of the ball as the ball passed the goal line. If they want to call it a reception, it HAD to be a fumble. Thankfully for Atlanta, the outcome of this play did not alter the outcome of the game.
In Jones case, it was a continuation of motion… he caught the ball as he was going to the ground… hit the ground but continued moving to the point the ball came completely free. I consider this to be a touchdown because he came down and hit the ground with his body in the endzone before loosing control, but he clearly lost control. Murphy on the other hand, never lost the football, it only shifted in his hands and then set the football on the ground afterwards.
A miscarriage of justice has clearly been made in these three cases. Without an official acknowledgement of this by the league, they are in effect acknowledging that the league is corrupt; which many already believe is to be the case.

By: Archangel

Archangel — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:05:31 +0000

Should not be surprised that the Raiders are ONCE AGAIN screwed over by the refs. They are the most scrutinized team in the NFL by the refs. Calls are made against them and when it happens to the other team RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REFS, the calls are not made. Definitely a conspiracy by the league because of Al Davis not being scared of them and what has happened in the pass.

By: wiley16350

wiley16350 — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:37:32 +0000

I said it before and I’ll say it again. It’s about momentum. In the Jones catch after his original momentum while catching the pass was over he still had possession of the ball, then he was thrown by the defender to create new momentum and after he hit the ground again by this momentum he lost the ball. This is how it is being interpreted. Murphy’s momentum wasn’t stopped when he landed on his butt he was still twisting and falling forward by his own momentum. That is the difference. I’d prefer the rule be like it used to be, if it looked like the receiver had control of the ball once he had two feet, knee, elbow, butt hit the ground then it is a catch. Look it is obviously hard to make some of these calls, otherwise we wouldn’t be disputing it. But I think that we all could agree that if it wasn’t for the rule then the Murphy and Jones TD’s were both catches. The rule makes it simpler for the refs to make a call, but it causes arguments because we all know what a catch looks like and this rule takes some away.

By: Guildenstern

Guildenstern — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:20:19 +0000

The real bottom line is that officials need to quit trying to win or lose games and let the players decide their fate. With all 3 catches they show once again that they are never wrong no matter what they call. Reverse the three decisions and they would still justify their decisions. The NFL needs to retool their replay system and get it out of the hands of the on field referee. Look once,twice then make your call. The Raiders got screwed plain and simple. Those other were not TD’s if you are going to review at least get it right regardless of the team.

By: fugitive99

fugitive99 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:55:21 +0000

The bottom line is I have been watching raider football for 37 years. Early in the 70s we were a hard hitting team. The league did not like the idea of a bunch of cast offs out there winning superbowls with the agressiveness they brought to the game. So for the last 37 years or so i have been watching the raiders get screwed year after year on calls. All of the media and explayers are always down on th raiders because they literally kicked everybody dick in the dirt for 30 years. So any one who thinks murphy catch was incomplete does not know anything about football or are just upset because the raiders kicked there teams ass many times . Raider fans there are a different set of rules for us. There always was and always will be. All they can do is go out and play 11 on 18 every week.

By: Wardo

Wardo — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:07:35 +0000

SteelTown_6 says:
September 22, 2009 11:56 AM
Shoudn’t a really good team be able to overcome all sorts of adversity thrown their way on the field, including bad calls?
————–
Kindof like how the Steelers overcame all those bad calls in their last two superbowls?
I can see you watching a game “It’s OK the refs just gave the game away, if the Seahawks were anygood they’d have overcome those 17 bad calls. Go Stillers!”

By: kbaby604

kbaby604 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:40:28 +0000

See … this is why the government can do anything they want. All they have to do is tell you a BS line and you have morons actually believe it. Open your eyes use your brain … you are making VY wonderlic score look like a genius.

By: lanche

lanche — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:19:36 +0000

In 25 years of watching the NFL, I have never seen a catch like Murphy made in the Raiders game not being a valid catch.
He catches the ball with both hands and maintains control. Both feet are down in the end zone. TD.
He then maintains control as he falls. His thigh is on the ground, then his but. Still has the ball. His elbow touches, still has control. The ball moves as his chest hits the ground.
If this is some new rule or interpretation of the rule, it needs to be changed. Based on “controlling the ball to the ground” the Steelers should not be the NFL champions because Santonio Holmes clearly does not maintain possession of the ball on the way down, after he taps two feet.
What is especially troubling is that the league keeps insisting it made no mistake in the Raiders game. Since when have possession, two feet down and the ball across the plain not been good enough for a TD? Once those things occur, the play is over, it’s a catch and TD.
The officials were wrong then and they’re still wrong now. The rules for possession and a legal catch have never been interpreted that way. Admit it was a mistake already.

By: ShruggingGalt

ShruggingGalt — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:02:00 +0000

@thetruthwillsetyoufree and others:
If he was “rolling” over to celebrate his first TD, then WHY WAS HIS TORSO 90 degrees turned away from his butt when he hits the ground????
Because he was still making the catch! That’s why. The play wasn’t over yet. His momentum was still happening, and thereby the play was still going on.
And the ball didn’t just move. It came OUT. You can see it from the far side replay. Just look. (I know they only showed it once on the telecast) He scoops it up quickly however.
It could have been worse. He could have dropped the ball at the one inch line after making a catch in the open field to celebrate his first TD…..

By: Raiders757

Raiders757 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:59:58 +0000

I think it’s pretty easy to say by the response last week and this week, that this rule is very subjective in meaning to the fans and to the refs. Therefor it needs to be looked at by the competition committee. It’s very obvious that most NFL fans think it’s a crock. In a world where the customer is always right, it would be a good idea this time around for the NFL to listen.

By: BillFromSanClemente

BillFromSanClemente — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:58:28 +0000

Thank you Mike Florio for providing a balanced point of view. It’s far more respectable than your Richard Seymour treatment.
The Raiders and their fans have every right to complain about this call. It is completely inconsistent with the other two calls. It doesn’t pass the sniff test either.
There are Raider Haters that will blur their eyes and try hard to see it their way. They won’t admit their blatant bias gets in the way of sound logic. There are Raider Fans who will cry that the NFL is out to get the Raiders. They aren’t, but not everyone is convinced.
The way I see it, the NFL is going to defend their call as long as they think they can put up a semi-credible argument. They are like any other big business and what they are doing is called “Circling the Wagons”.
There. Now we all have a start towards our MBA.
Too bad there are such a bunch of hapless bureaucrats running the NFL these days. They will put self-serving rationalization ahead of sport every time.
Go Raiders!

By: stanjam

stanjam — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:57:48 +0000

There is “no way” all three are right? Florio, you should know better than to deal with absolutes. The catch where the guy stretched the ball across the plane. He didn’t just stretch out, he turned and then stretched across. The ref determined that this was a “football move.” That is something you never seem to address in your need to create drama. While I disagree that this is a football move, the ref didn’t. Once he makes a football move while in possession of the ball, he becomes a runner. As such, as soon as the ball crosses the plane he has scored.
I didn’t watch the other play, but the explanation seems to indicate he wasn’t hit while making the reception, and that, in fact, he went to a knee, was THEN hit by the defender, and THEN hit the ground and lost the ball. Going to knee and being hit by a defender could very well constitute a football move, and since his knee was on the ground, as soon as he made that football move, the play was over.

By: chugs

chugs — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:26:02 +0000

who goes to work on a yellow bus??
what’s that even mean?
Truth won’t set you as free as knowledge or brains or wit….since you can’t seem to differentiate…between truth & reality.

By: Mark0226

Mark0226 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:21:07 +0000

Add another that agrees with the NFL on these. In particular, Rosario. He caught the ball and THEN turned up field stretching for the TD. It was clearly two moves, not one as Florio sees.

By: lawdjayee

lawdjayee — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:55:35 +0000

My favorite post here is the one which complains about the refs missing VJ bobbling the ball vs. the Ravens, because on the slo-mo instant replay it “looks like” he does. Hilarious!
Also: the NFL doesn’t have it in for the Raiders. The Raiders have just sucked for the last seven seasons. Deal with it! Or was there a questionable call in the 2002 Super Bowl that I missed?

By: Eli

Eli — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:51:56 +0000

@Dmacattack
Absolutely, positively correct.
Here is the RULE again EXACTLY as it relates and appears in the rule book…
“If the player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass he must maintain control of the ball AFTER HE TOUCHES THE GROUND”.
NOWHERE and I mean NOWHERE does it state ANYTHING about continuation of the play, infinity of the play, momentum of the play or as Florio has incorrectly suggested… “possession of the ball through the ENTIRE play.”
NOWHERE.
If the rulebook stated THAT, then I along with the majority of others wouldn’t be on here arguing that in the first place.
That’s what this is all about.
So, all Murphy had to do was “maintain control of the ball AFTER HE TOUCHES THE GROUND”.
With the key word being… “TOUCHES”.
Here again is a slow motion video of the Murphy touchdown and the blown call by the official…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnBS8tTsnWE
A). At 1:02 you can CLEARLY see both feet and his butt are BEGINNING to “touch the ground” and he is controlling the ball.
B). At 1:14 you can CLEARLY see that his RIGHT elbow has “touched the ground” and he is controlling the ball.
C). At 1:15 you can CLEARLY see that his RIGHT forearm has “touched the ground” and he is controlling the ball.
D). At 1:16 you can CLEARLY see that his LEFT hand has “touched the ground” and he is controlling the ball.
The play SHOULD have been ruled a completed catch and a touchdown the split second after his butt INITALLY “touched the ground”.
And it for sure should have been ruled a catch and a touchdown after the second time a part of this body “touched the ground”!
But what makes this such a travesty is that not 1, not 2, or even 3, but in FACT 4 separate times a different part of his body “touched the ground” while he maintained control of the ball!
Both, Mike Florio and Mike Pereria are WRONG.
Anybody with a pair of eyes, common sense and a conscience can CLEARLY see in the slow motion replay that was posted here that the NFL robbed that kid of a touchdown.
And, quite possibly robbed the Oakland Raiders of a victory

By: eliasmd2003

eliasmd2003 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:35:25 +0000

Thats a bs call when I see on and it’s not a conspiracy but the refs in part because on nearly every flag thrown they retract the flag and say there was no penalty on this play, refs looked outdated…and they did discuss about each and every time they threw a flag … the refs blew that game for the raiders and it’s clear now after seeing those other teams get touchdowns when they a far more deserving of this raider rule!…I am a true raider fan but and open minded one. RAIDERS GOT HOSED GUYS .

By: theTRUTHwillSETuFREE

theTRUTHwillSETuFREE — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:02:45 +0000

@ENDZONEVIEW First off, I think you have been watching a little too much Chappelle Show because it’s Louis Murphy not Charlie Murphy.
2nd watch the damn Murphy Video again you idiot…He has posession when both feet and his ass HITS THE GROUND!! He then turned his body to get up for celebration of his first TD in the NFL when the ball comes loose.
The rules are right my ass! You people should be going to work in a yellow bus!

By: simple_simon1

simple_simon1 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:54:08 +0000

Ok…. So lets easily solve all this BS and simply go back to the way it used to be called.
a) Simply, if the ball hits the ground, it’s no catch, period.
b) Second, once establishing a catch and going to the ground, if the ball comes out, it shouldn’t matter unless it’s a diving catch. Otherwise, as soon as two feet hit with possession, it’s a catch.
Not too hard to figure out. We spent many years with these rules and only a handful of times did it ever cause any sort of issue.
I think that they need to make a new rule though. On penalties that result in automatic first downs, or any 15 yard pentalties, the refs should be able to review the call. Make it a challenge play. Sometimes, if the ref had the chance to see the play over, he might realize the wrong call has been made. As an example, there were two calls in Detroit on Sunday (and it happens lots when you’re a crap team the doesn’t get the good officials) that completely turned the game around when Detroit was hanging in there and the game was still really close. Momentum was demolished and Minnesota quickly benefitted. The calls were horrible. That’s just as bad as any wrongly called catch.

By: endzoneview

endzoneview — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:51:04 +0000

The Charlie Murphy “catch” happened in the endzone, so he had to maintain the possession once hitting the ground.
The other two catches occured in the playing field, then broke the plane of the goal line. After that happens, nothing else matters.
Obviously, the breaking of the plane overrides anything that happens afterwards. Right or wrong, this is how the NFL is interpreting these plays.
Live with it.

By: titanstrides

titanstrides — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:47:58 +0000

i guess no one should EVER throw the ball in the end zone then… they should all throw it one yard in front of the end zone instead. that way the player can catch the ball get two feet down and fumble when they hit the ground. it won’t matter at that point cause they already crossed the goal line!!!
that is how this rule is being called. do YOU understand the rule now?!
this has nothing to do with the raiders or any other team. it has EVERYTHING to do with different officiating crews interpreting a rule differently because it was not written well.

By: BleedGreen

BleedGreen — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:41:21 +0000

What about the blatent non-call on Jonathan Stinchcomb for mauling Cris Clemons with a forearm around his neck from behind with the other hand grabbing his facemask as Drew Brees sat in the pocket to throw a TD at the end of the 2nd quarter of the Eagles/Saints game? The ref was calling the Eagles for farting too hard, all the while, caught on video STARING at Stinchcomb blatently holding/illegal hands to the face/facemasking Clemons and that drew no penalty whatsoever.

By: PFTiswhatitis

PFTiswhatitis — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:38:44 +0000

why is it that the league can never admit a mistake or even that there is a problem with the way a rule is written?

By: Drat

Drat — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:37:19 +0000

Simplify the rules, make fewer special pleadings and exceptions. On a running play, the ground can’t cause a fumble. Same should be true on a passing play — the ground can’t cause an incompletion. The decision about whether a receiver had possession of the ball or not should be based on performance before the contact with the ground.

By: ItalianStallion

ItalianStallion — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:33:07 +0000

Honestly, people who can’t see the differences in the catches don’t understand the rules.
Are the rules in this case good? Maybe not, but that is how it is defined.
Louis Murphy is the one who let the ball move when it touched the ground.

By: AutumnWind999

AutumnWind999 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:31:32 +0000

theTRUTHwillSETuFREE says:
September 22, 2009 12:48 PM
For the people defending this call, saying it was right. You all are F–KING IDIOTS! In Periera’s defense of his refs call against the Raiders, he made it very clear that when going to the ground in the endzone, outside the endzone, on the sidelines, wherever “you must maintain posession of the ball through the whole process” This just shows you, the ignorance of some fans along side the NFL. You people are Raider Haters or just completely f–king stupid. 80% of Football fans say that Murphy was robbed, the other 20% hold the same grudge the NFL does against the Raiders or are just mentally retarded.
————————-
Bingo.

By: titanstrides

titanstrides — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:23:22 +0000

the main problem with the interpretation of this rule is that it is being called differently for plays outside of the end zone. in the rule that was explained for the non-TD by murphy, the language clearly stated that it didn’t matter if the player caught the ball at the 50 yard line or in the end zone.
therefore, whether the player goes to the ground while catching the ball in the middle of the field, or whether he is in the end zone, if he goes to the ground catching the ball, “he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.”
i can agree that the rosario possession was a different case… that one should have been ruled no TD because you can clearly see ball being bobbled as he goes to the ground. again, if this happened at the 50 yard line… he catches, two feet down the lunges (let’s say) for a first down and the ball pops out after being bobbled… 9 times outta 10 it would be called incomplete instead of a fumble.
the big problem comes on the jones call. even though he did touch down before being flipped over the rule is being interpreted differently because he was not yet in the end zone (like murphy was when he first touched down with possession). according to the rule explanation given for the murphy non-TD “he must maintain control of the ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.” maybe the missing info here is what if the player is in the field AND the end zone. as it was explained previously the play is not complete until he stops on his back in the end zone, and at that point he had already dropped the ball on the ground, thus NO TD! the key phrase in the rule is “MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE BALL *AFTER* HE TOUCHES THE GROUND.”

By: Dmacattack

Dmacattack — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:22:43 +0000

“RULE: You must MAINTAIN possession of the ball THROUGHOUT the catch, which includes hitting the ground. If the ball is dislodged upon hitting the ground, no catch.”
You act like we don’t understand this. IMO the catch was made in the air. Two feet down it’s over TD. But, then we continue on to “going to the ground”. Ok, his butt hits the ground and he still has possession. TD right? Then he rolls over and the ball starts to wiggle free before it finally comes loose.
The catch was made and maintained through 3 or 4 body parts touching the ground before he even rolled over. How many do you need? And what is “THROUGHOUT the catch”? If he’d held onto the ball when he rolled, but rolled over again and lost it would that be enough for TD?

By: ZombieRevolution

ZombieRevolution — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:21:45 +0000

Maybe Steve Young could explain to it you so you can understand…

By: chugs

chugs — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:13:53 +0000

oh wow, everybody’s dumb as hell except for Florio & Raiders fans…
Just wait till Jesus gets his hands on you Florio.