Comments on: Westbrook was knocked out

By: drbob1117

drbob1117 — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:11:59 +0000

@housseofho: I have practiced in a field of medicine for over 23 years in which neuropathy is a big deal, so I know a little about neurology in general. The doctors Westbrook is seeing are the best in the business; they know plenty about neurology in all aspects; the docs at Pitt that are interpreting his tests are some of the top people in the study of concussion injury. Now let’s address your points: 1)As red13 noted above, every player took a baseline test before the season, it’s required by the NFL; also trainer Rick Burkholder, who has won awards for being one of the top trainers in the league said that he was immediately lucid after the injury 2) Burkholder said that since he still has a headache, no physical activity can be undertaken; the neuro convention here is that the headache must go away completely before he graduates to the next stage, he clearly stated that whether that happens tomorrow or 3 weeks from now makes no difference to him; he won’t be clearing him until after he put him through the activity challenge; and then if he gets another headache we go back to square one; this is exactly how you’re supposed to handle it. 3) You are definitely prone to more concussions after your first, but those patients whose docs have followed the protocol have had much more success in keeping symptoms from recurring. I absolutely think that the Eagles staff will err on the side of caution, my objection was to people who made a diagnosis by talking to orthopedic surgeons who never examined Westbrook; or worse, took one line from a book or pamphlet and tried to make a blanket statement about his prognosis. Let the professionals do their jobs, and I’m sure that they will make sure he’s 100% before sending him out there. BTW, the Eagles have never told Burkholder or a doc to clear someone early, no health professional with any ethics would do that, and the Birds don’t ask them to; whether it’s a head injury or anything else.

By: Opie

Opie — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:02:57 +0000

socojava: I hope that puts the TMZ style shiznit to rest!

By: socojava

socojava — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:12:02 +0000

From Head Athletic Trainer Rick Burkholder of the Philadelphia Eagles at today’s press conference:
First of all, I know that there were some articles put out there and certain people that claim they were experts and had some misinformation. In 2001 in Vienna and then follow up in 2004 in Prague and then 2008 in Zurich a group of physicians and clinicians worldwide got together to put to rest some of the myths and some of the different grading systems, return to play, that kind of thing to make it easier for parents, coaches, athletic trainers, therapists physicians to come up with universal treatment plan for concussions. We follow that. We follow their guidelines. Also, I am one of two athletic trainers in the National Football League that sits on the NFL’s committee on concussions. I see it two or three times a year in those meetings and I take that part of my job as one of the highest levels of concern for our players and for me as a clinician. That injury has a lot of focus within the media and within the players union and within the players’ safety group, but it’s a big issue with their livelihood and that’s one of the things that I concern myself with as their healthcare provider. We’ve gone to great lengths to make sure that we know what we’re dealing with. As far as our physicians are concerned, [team internist] Dr. Gary Dorshimer out of Pennsylvania hospital is my go-to guy and if you noticed on Monday night after we determined that he had a concussion, and that he didn’t have a neck injury, I immediately turned the case to Dr. Dorshimer as I walked off the field. Dr. Dorshimer spent time in the locker room evaluating him. He has been on the phone with myself and with Brian the last couple of days. We will evaluate him again tomorrow. He is our guy that does it. Our [orthopedists] have never handled concussions here and that will not be the case as long as I am the athletic trainer here. Dr. Dorshimer is the guy and he is very versed in all the concussion terminology, nomenclature, diagnosis, all of that kind of stuff.
Some of the basic stuff that I think should be out there that you guys should know about is that concussions come from a direct blow. In Brian’s case it came from a direct blow from a knee to the head, but it could come from a blow to the face, to the neck, to the body, anything that transmits into the brain. In most cases, there is no anatomical disruption. There is nothing to find in their brain that causes this. It’s just a loss of function. There is nothing torn. You don’t see damage on an MRI. You don’t see damage on a CT scan. That’s why often times with these concussions we don’t do testing like that because they don’t mean anything. It is really based on the symptoms. They have rapid onset. As you saw with Brian’s case, he was hit in the back of the head and instantly had symptoms. They are usually short-lived symptoms. A guy sprains his knee, it is four to six weeks of symptoms. These guys that get concussions, it’s short lived. There is usually no structural damage, just a loss of function.
Originally, a lot of the literature that you guys have seen and a lot of literature that was talked about, it graded concussions first degree, second degree, third degree. At one time there were twenty different standards out there which really confused the athletes, confused the medical community, that kind of thing. When they went to Vienna in 2001, they classified it as simple and complex. They had two classifications. They’ve since even dropped that. That’s what led me up here today, somebody asked Andy, ‘What was the grade of the concussion?’ We don’t know. We don’t know because we don’t grade the concussions until after we’ve run the whole course of how they’ve responded to their symptoms and how quickly they return to normal function. That’s been the recommendation of this committee to make sure that automatically when he is knocked out he’s a grade two, grade three.
Brian did lose consciousness on the field. We think it was less than a minute. That does not play into the grading. What that does is the loss of consciousness often times gives you an indicator that it’s going to be a little bit longer for him to return from symptoms then a guy who is not knocked unconscious. We don’t use it as a grade, but we use it as an indicator that he may take a little bit longer. That is not always the case either. The ‘loss of consciousness’ thing is just one thing for us. We look at a lot of symptoms and we look at how he responds to those symptoms and I will tell you that immediately once he woke up on the field he knew everything. He knew where he was. He knew his brother was in front of him. He knew Coach Reid was behind me. He knew everything. He has a very short interval between breaking the huddle and the play that he doesn’t remember. That’s called retrograde amnesia. It’s not a big indicator for us when we look at recovery. When we look for amnesia, and you’ll see some of this as you guys research it, the amnesia that we worry about is that he can’t remember things that happened after he was hit. He has none of that. He remembers waking up. He actually remembers that he was dreaming. He remembered a lot of things about the event, but he doesn’t have any time in there where he says, ‘I don’t remember you guys walking me off the field. I don’t remember how I got to the locker room. I don’t remember the second half of the game being out on the field talking to Andy and the team.’ He knew all of that so those are all good indicators for us. We look at his symptoms as he goes along here over the next couple of days. We look obviously at headache, his fatigue factor, how he’s responding in meetings, whether watching film or studying the playbook affects him, whether he’s irritable, whether he’s nervous, whether he appears to be depressed, that kind of thing. I’m talking to Brian all day. Every time that he comes out of a meeting and takes a break, I talk to him. [Eagles assistant athletic trainer] Chris Peduzzi talks to him. Dr. Dorshimer calls me to check on him. We’ve already spoken twice today about it. This is a constant, ongoing thing with him. We’ll look at his symptoms and once his headache clears, because that’s his big symptom because he has a very mild headache, mild to me is okay but he still has a headache. When that clears, the next step is you take him through an exercise program so you get his heart rate up. Does that make his symptoms worse? If it doesn’t make his symptoms worse, then you go to the next step, which is you start to do some football-type drills where you get balance and footwork and change in direction. If that goes well, then you return him to practice. Then, if that goes well you return him to a game. The question has been asked to me, ‘Have you had anyone knocked unconscious here and then play the next week?’ Yes. I’ve had guys not knocked unconscious here and not play the next week because the grading scale to us doesn’t matter. It’s all symptoms and it’s how do they return from their symptoms [and] when they do, can they take the next challenge? Can they take the next challenge? Can they take the next challenge? Where are we game-time wise? And that’s exactly what we’ll do with Brian.
I’ve had guys here who had very mild concussions that played in a game that we didn’t even know it until after the game. They came to us after the game and said, ‘I got my bell rung.’ We took them through our process. They had symptoms through Thursday, Friday. We didn’t let them exercise. [We] put them on a bike on Friday, they got worse symptoms, we backed them down and they didn’t play Sunday. Every time they get increased symptoms, we back them to their next step and then we move forward. Some guys it takes 10 days, some guys it takes three days. I think we are very up to speed on our assessment. I think we are very up to speed on our treatment, and I think that we have had a very good record here at the Eagles, at least in the 11 years I’ve been here and searching back.
I think as the education on concussions has increased so has our awareness and it will continue to be that way. I invite the opportunity to be able to speak on the subject, and I spoke at the 2007 conference for the NFL and I think it’s something that our league needs to notice. I think the Commissioner has done a phenomenal job of bringing this to light, and I think our players are protected better now than ever before. One thing that the Concussion Committee and the National Football League has determined is that, for the most part, the physicians for the NFL teams are doing a great job of managing these things on the sideline. I think that Brian’s is just another case of something that we see every year. He just happens to be a star running back here and it was on national TV. He was knocked unconscious clearly on TV. He’ll go through the course as other guys here have gone through and I think he’ll do fine.”

By: Opie

Opie — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:01:59 +0000

CornFlorio: I know that when I used to have to write people’s direct quotes, if I left anything out before or after the part I was quoting, Ihad to put the (………) in there. You would be wise to do the same. To purposefully leave shit out is why we take issue with your quotes.
Vox: back to your Mom’s cellar. McCheckdown? Really?!? You might want to look at stats before you ask for Westy to get the ball…….or win a playoff game in the past 12 years………or not yell for your Mommy “clean up in my pants” when you shard in them from watching yet another lost season from your ‘boys!
AR won’t play someone who is hurt. The doctors won’t clear him if he’s hurt. Money invested or not, it won’t happen.
Now, if Westy does play……then why can’t Canty take his panties off and come outside for the game?!?

By: jreed

jreed — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:35:22 +0000

OK stop mixing the truth! This is a direct Quote from Big Red Himself:
“I know Brian’s going to want to play,” Reid said. “But unless Brian’s tests come back to where they’re in a position where he can play, then we won’t do that. He is making progress. It’s a matter of time. We’ll just see how he does this week. We’ll see what the tests show.”

By: typhil21

typhil21 — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:05:41 +0000

well its his 1st concussion so we will see, he has a baseline test, has been stated on the eagles website, they will go from there, he is likely out this week any1 with a brain knows reid is playing games…however where is any rage over kevin boss getting destroyed in that cards game ( i saw that hit he couldn’t walk straight off the field, head and neck soreness my *ss lol ive had 2 concussions and concussions cause that) and they let him go back in the damn game he looked lost when he went back out there

By: rotaryfiend

rotaryfiend — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:29:56 +0000

@Resolution – I was referring to the folks harping on Reid in the comments, and yes…I am pretty righteous…
lol
Get Better Westy!

By: mattitude

mattitude — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:23:20 +0000

VoxVeritas says:
October 28, 2009 9:40 AM
re: Steve Young
“and he makes a hell of a lot better Commentator than Emmit smith or Tiki Barber.. and many more..”
Sure, if you can get past the stuttering that wasn’t there when he started his NFL career.
————————————————-
What you perceive as stuttering is your inability to understand a human being speaking without a Southern twang or a piece of straw in their mouth. That’s ok. You’re from Texas, you’re not expected to understand a lot of things.

By: Kevin from Philly

Kevin from Philly — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:30:07 +0000

You want him there because McNabb relies on him? Of course a QB relies on his best weapons, especially if they’re open and the deep pass is covered well. Your logic is astounding, as usual.
P.S. How’d you like that “checkdown” to his second option on the 57 yard TD? Dope.

By: leatherneck

leatherneck — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:11:16 +0000

Steve Young? The guy who was forced to retire early because of concussions?
Fortunately, he did retire early, and he still has normal brain function.

By: VoxVeritas

VoxVeritas — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:42:46 +0000

“Funny how the Giants and Cowboys fans are clamoring for a two week hiatus for Westbrook”
Not me. I want him in there because McCheckdown relies on him too much. To the detriment of his team, a lot of the time.

By: VoxVeritas

VoxVeritas — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:40:07 +0000

re: Steve Young
“and he makes a hell of a lot better Commentator than Emmit smith or Tiki Barber.. and many more..”
Sure, if you can get past the stuttering that wasn’t there when he started his NFL career.

By: Bunson

Bunson — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:28:33 +0000

leatherneck says: October 27, 2009 9:38 PM
“I think this could end Westbrook’s season or career. I said the same thing on last night’s thread when I correctly guessed he had been knocked out. ”
Leatherneck is a rocket scientist. You “guessed this correctly last night?” Then you are way behind. I was at the game in DC, and knew even before he got up what happened. They announced it on the TV broadcast. This won’t end his season, nor his career.

By: Borg30

Borg30 — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:37:05 +0000

Big Giant fan, but To all you Eagle Fans,
I hope Brian gets better soon
He always has been and always will be a Giant Killer.

By: Kevin from Philly

Kevin from Philly — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:28:51 +0000

Funny how the Giants and Cowboys fans are clamoring for a two week hiatus for Westbrook – now, who are the Eagles playing those weeks?
Of course Reid isn’t ruling him out this week. Hell, if Belichick was the coach, Westbrook wouldn’t even be on the injury report.

By: clemenza

clemenza — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:25:09 +0000

i would love to see westbrook play against the giants this week but being knocked out cold like that there is no way in hell he should play this week.i hope he is good to go for the dallas games almost 2 weeks from now

By: red13

red13 — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:00:26 +0000

thehouseofho:
FYI, every player is now required to take a baseline test before playing, so they can judge any effects of a head injury. They test memory skills, etc. and record the answers, and then ask the same questions after any head injury. The player cannot be released by the docs until that test is passed and the player is back to his baseline level.

By: CtownBleedsGreen

CtownBleedsGreen — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:22:10 +0000

Other snippets from Reid about the injury other than the firestorm minutae quote posted on PFT: “We just have to make sure the tests come back and he’s OK to play,” the coach said.
The coach said it was a frightening moment, but he was relieved that his star running back was unconscious rather than paralyzed.
“That is scary,” Reid said. “I think we all felt that. You don’t want anybody to get hurt, but you’d rather have a knockout than somebody be paralyzed. Actually, by the time he came back [to the sideline] for the second half, he was really coherent and kind of with things. He didn’t remember a thing, but he was with it at that moment.”
“He’s OK,” Reid said. “He’s going to be OK, so . . . it’s a matter of time now. We’ll see where he’s at as we get closer to the end of the week.”
…………………………………..
Why not include more quotes so that you’re not starting all this empty argument? You’re the Perez Hilton of the football world with shit like this.

By: Resolution

Resolution — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:20:00 +0000

rotoryfiend & DJ,
Using “strategy” is even more obvious than you two think it is. In fact, its so obvious most people don’t bother mentioning it, so stop thinking you’re the only ones who realize it.
You’re going to sit here and call people names for not mentioning the obvious? Well, you both are self righteous tools.

By: DJ

DJ — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:30:12 +0000

I love all the self righteous neurological experts.
Have you slapdicks ever hear of “strategy”?
Reid knows already if he’s going to play at all this next week. He’s just not going to make it easy for the Giants and announce on TUESDAY before the first practice of the game week that his best playmaker isn’t going to be available for a crucial divisional game. It was shocking enough to publicly and conclusively declare that Brian had a concussion, given the Gestapo tactics of some clubs in characterizing injuries ( lower body injury, head injury, etc..).
The fact the Eagles were THAT quick with a diagnosis explains the severity of the injury.
Couple that with the fact this ball club “babies” its players with injuries (both Andrews, Abiramiri, Westbrook again) makes it all the more ludicrious to expect the team to put him in harm’s way again in the condition he’s in.
Want proof? They held out a starting player AFTER a doctor definatively stated there was nothing “structurally wrong” with his body.
And THAT guy doesn’t even handle the football in anyway shape or form!
Brian is going to be on the shelf until after Veterans Day at the very earliest.
But Reid isn’t going to make that public. He’ll continue to be coy and announce that Westbrook is a day-to-day-situation-we’ll-see kind of situation every single week and announce him as one of the inactives leading up to game time, especially when his OL is short for “OLE!” and his rushing game can’t move from here to there without his backfield wearing a top hat, cane and black cape.
This will work….until the losses start to happen and depending on how the season is shaking out…then he’s going to have to figure out something else that doesn’t work.
But in the midst of three division games, he’s not going to make it easy for his opponent.

By: Mike Quick

Mike Quick — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:17:32 +0000

Is everyone really that dense? A little common sense would go a long way. If you watched the play it was obvious he was knocked out. Reid wants the Gnats to prepare for him. Westbrook wont be playing this week. Get your heads out of your asses.

By: jimacph

jimacph — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 04:11:00 +0000

In a civilized game like rugby, being KO’d would get you an immediate 4 week quarantine.
It is possible that it will be 6 weeks or more before he can run without throbbing headaches, blurred vision, nausea, etc. And that is his brain telling him to stop, not just an owee boo boo to an appendage.
If Andy Reid actually said that, he should be sent packing.

By: FumbleNuts

FumbleNuts — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:37:24 +0000

What team doctor would let him play after a ” blender brain” hit like that?
Westbrook is a warrior with nothing more to prove to ANYONE!

By: Marc F

Marc F — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:34:01 +0000

Season Ending?
really.
i got one name for ya.
Steve Young.
King of Concussions!
and he makes a hell of a lot better Commentator than Emmit smith or Tiki Barber.. and many more.. i don’t remember either of those fine running backs ever getting knocke dout, so whats their excuse for the stammering and stutering live on the air?
Westbrook will be good to go on Sunday. he’s a phenominal athlete, and do you think after this many years that Andy Reid or the Eagles would take a chance if the Dr’s and Westbrook didn’t give the OK? if there’s ever been an Eagles Franchise player outside of the QB, it would be Westbrook..

By: timegambit

timegambit — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:15:14 +0000

Andy Reid’s the type of guy who probably caught his son with a bag of crack and made him sit down and smoke the whole thing to prove a point.
This league will be completely different in 5-10 years. Lawsuits a mile long.
Studies are finding direct long term disabilities connected to concussions. The study is focusing on boxing, but getting ko’ed is getting ko’ed, no matter the sport.
Helmuts wrapped in bubble wrap by 2015. Look for it!

By: Stone

Stone — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:43:36 +0000

No shit he got knocked out. Sometimes you’re a real master of stating the obvious, Florio. Westbrook got knocked the F&CK out!

By: King Kreg

King Kreg — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:35:45 +0000

Best wishes to Westy, and I am sure he will be back when he feels ready….
Dang, he did cost me my fantasy week though. I was losing by 2 points going into Monday night and I had Westy get knocked out cold by Fletcher after getting me only one….. what luck

By: east96street

east96street — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:31:01 +0000

birdmancometh says: “but the doctors are smarter than “PFT nation.”
Not when there is a financial conflict of interest. Remember, tobacco companies used to pay doctors to endorse cigarettes. The AMA sided with big tobacco for decades after the negative health effects of tobacco were proven. Today, it’s big pharma companies paying doctors to prescribe medications that aren’t the best and/or the cheapest meds for their patients to be on. If the doc is really enjoying his Eagles paycheck and they want their star RB to play, I’m guessing he will experience a remarkable recovery. After all, 20 years from now, if he can barely speak or move, it won’t be the Eagles problem to care for him. I am baffled as to why this isn’t an issue of concern for the players union. 32 docs who are keenly aware who really pays the bills. It’s not only unethical, it’s potentially deadly. And, no, it’s not just Philly – it’s a league wide problem.

By: thehouseofho

thehouseofho — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:14:06 +0000

@drbob1117
That’s assuming a baseline was even taken. Yes, Andy Reid should butt out when stating a player’s availability due to a concussion. I’ve had four concussions in the past and there are a few of things you need to know about them:
1 – You will actually feel better for the first few hours before you start feeling worse. It takes time for bruises on your brain to develop.
2 – Westbrook definitely shouldn’t be performing any physical activity for a couple of days after a concussion so doctors can make an accurate diagnosis and prognosis.
3 – Once you have one concussion, it’s definitely easier to receive another one.
After seeing the hit on Westbrook, NO ONE should be saying he’ll be expected to play in a collision sport 6 days after suffering from the injury. Especially a coach who is speaking as a coach and not as a doctor.
The doctors have not ruled him out, nor have they cleared him. When it comes to brain injuries of any kind, a good doctor will always err on the side of caution.
IMHO, if Westbrook even experiences one headache or the slightest aversion to light, he should be out two weeks. Concussions are nothing to sneeze at and can cause serious problems later on in life.

By: SmackMyVickUp

SmackMyVickUp — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:48:34 +0000

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4599983 The head of the NFL Players Association said Tuesday his union has differences with the NFL over how to address head injuries suffered during pro football games, but they're not fighting about it. One day before a congressional hearing about head injuries in professional football players, union head DeMaurice Smith credited the NFL for doing a "tremendous job" to improve player safety in the past five years.