The Miami Dolphins will play the New England Patriots on Sunday, which means it's another installment in the mentor vs. protege rivalry of Bill Parcells vs. Bill Belichick.
But Belichick tells our friend Tom Curran of CSNNE.com that he has nothing but respect for Parcells.
"Out of all the strengths that Bill has, his ability to take an organization that's really pretty bad and turn it around is the one that stands out to me," Belichick said today. "I don't think anybody does it better and I've learned a lot being around him whether on his staff or watching him do it with other teams."
Belichick added that Parcells is one of the best in the business at, as Belichick described it, "knowing the big picture" -- assessing what a franchise needs to do to engineer a turnaround.
For all the talk that Belichick and Parcells have hard feelings toward each other, this mentor-protege relationship doesn't seem to have soured the way the Bill Belichick-Eric Mangini relationship did. Belichick comes across as though he has genuine admiration and affection for his former boss.
Bill Belichick praises Bill Parcells
Posted by Michael David Smith on November 4, 2009 7:49 PM ET
These two buried the hatchet a long time ago. MDS, "google, it".
Well I guess Belichick has identified the answer for the current Raiders petition http://messagetoal.com
Now if the Raiders could only pry him away from the Fins.
Hard feelings? Watch this years combine and you'll see Parcells and Belichick sitting by themselves watching for an entire session!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2565510
Here you go MDS. That's over three years ago.
I often forget that Bill Belichick was the head coach of the Jets for about 25 minutes.
I wonder if the Jets list him as a former head coach in their historical record?
Parcells and Belichick never had any issues at all until Belichick backed out on the Jets job. Even then Big Bill just moved on, plugged in linebackers coach Al Groh and left the Jets franchise in good shape talent wise, just as he always does. In keeping his promise to Woody Johnson.
There always has and there always will be a tremendous amount of respect between these two men. You just don't coach in three Super Bowls and four Conference Championship games together and throw that all away over ego and job preference.
Big Bill is loyal...very loyal...almost to a fault.
Is little Bill among those Big Bill counts on one hand as his most treasured of friends? No, afraid not. But nonetheless the two men are still close and have communication with each other to this day. Mostly in the offseason, as in stating the obvious here that they are still division rivals.
Yeah, he does turn a team around. So does Marty Schottenheimer.
And aside from his 2 championships with the Giants, he has essentially been Marty Schottenheimer. You know....without as much regular season success.
This relationship hasn't ''soured'' because Mangini is a total douche, and has no talent and completely alienated himself from the entire coaching community by calling out someone who genuinely tried to teach him how to win.
Bill Belichick = winner
Bill Parcells = winner
Eric Mangini = big stupid a-hole
BB is nothing short of a class act. You paying attention Steeler fans?
The Bill's patched up their differences after the '04 Cowboys/Patriots Sunday Night game.
BTW, JP Losman is tearing it up tonight. He looks better than anyone the Browns, Bucs, or Titans have.
Belichick comes across as though he has genuine admiration and affection for his former boss.
that's because he's about to stick it up Parcell's keister on Sunday ....
Pats Rule....In a thread stating absolutely nothing about the Steelers you have to throw a jab at the fans?? What does that say about you?
It's hilarious a patties fan is calling the Steelers fans classless....people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
# TFBuckFutter says: November 4, 2009 8:23
"Yeah, he does turn a team around. So does Marty Schottenheimer.
And aside from his 2 championships with the Giants, he has essentially been Marty Schottenheimer. You know....without as much regular season success."
Right because as an NFL Head Coach winning 2 Super Bowls, taking 2 different franchises to the Super Bowl and taking 3 different franchises to the Conference Championship game is such a menial accomplishment...
Somebody remind me to speak to Florio about getting some of those eye roll thingees on here. Or at least a really good dancing fat man. Like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuEpouRT7bk
***# TFBuckFutter says: November 4, 2009 8:23 PM Yeah, he does turn a team around. So does Marty Schottenheimer. And aside from his 2 championships with the Giants, he has essentially been Marty Schottenheimer. You know....without as much regular season success.***
Guess he should have took up CHEATING, like his mentoree little Bill?
"Asswipe Johnson (Pronounced Az-Wee-Pay) says:
Right because as an NFL Head Coach winning 2 Super Bowls, taking 2 different franchises to the Super Bowl and taking 3 different franchises to the Conference Championship game is such a menial accomplishment..."
Sorry. It's true. Aside from those two seasons, he has been only slightly above average.
I get that you can't challenge the tuna....but it's all smoke and mirrors. He's not that great.
It's also not a coincidence than without Belichick, Parcells literally hasn't won shit.
".....and taking 3 different franchises to the Conference Championship game is such a menial accomplishment..."
"Sorry. It's true. Aside from those two seasons, he has been only slightly above average."
If he took 3 different teams to Conference Championship games in only 2 seasons, the man certainly has my respect.
TFBuckFutter says: November 4, 2009 9:21 PM
"It's also not a coincidence than without Belichick, Parcells literally hasn't won shit."
Well that's a game we could play all day. Without Tom Brady, Belichick hasn't won shit. The great Bill Walsh without Joe Montana you ask? Nope, nada.
Parcells has won two Super Bowls with two different quarterbacks (Simms, Hoss) and made a third Super Bowl with another different quarterback (Bledsoe)...made four Conference Championships with four different quarterbacks (Vinny).
These are things my friend that will NEVER, EVER be repeated again.
Parcells legacy of coaches include Super Bowl winners Belichick and Coughlin along with potentially this years Super Bowl winner Sean Payton. So the man also gets credit for putting together outstanding coaching staffs as well.
"Occam says:
November 4, 2009 9:50 PM
If he took 3 different teams to Conference Championship games in only 2 seasons, the man certainly has my respect."
I was referencing his two championship seasons.
"Asswipe Johnson (Pronounced Az-Wee-Pay) says:
November 4, 2009 9:52 PM
Well that's a game we could play all day. Without Tom Brady, Belichick hasn't won shit. The great Bill Walsh without Joe Montana you ask? Nope, nada.
Parcells has won two Super Bowls with two different quarterbacks (Simms, Hoss) and made a third Super Bowl with another different quarterback (Bledsoe)...made four Conference Championships with four different quarterbacks (Vinny).
These are things my friend that will NEVER, EVER be repeated again.
Parcells legacy of coaches include Super Bowl winners Belichick and Coughlin along with potentially this years Super Bowl winner Sean Payton. So the man also gets credit for putting together outstanding coaching staffs as well."
What's the common denominator in all of those seasons, aside from Parcells? I'll give you a hint.....he has three more Super Bowl rings total than Parcells does. As well as 4 more conference championships (Not "appearances").
You can't even argue with it. Parcells was a .500 coach when Belichick wasn't his defensive coordinator.
Conversely, every defensive coordinator that ever left Belichick went on to less than mediocre careers.
What does that tell you? It tells me that Belichick builds championship defenses while other people cash in by taking some or ALL of the credit, regardless of how much they deserve.
Also, it is disingenuous to give Bill Parcells credit for Sean Payton and Tom Coughlin's success just because, at some point in their careers, they worked for him. Both of them were already NFL coaches when they worked (for three seasons each) under Parcells. In fact, both of them worked in the NFL longer NOT under Parcells than under him before striking out of their own as head coaches. Coughlin: 4 years NFL experience as a WR coach under other coaches followed by 3 years as a WR coach under Parcells. Payton 3 years QB coach, 3 years offensive coordinator under Ray Rhodes and Jim Fassel, followed by 3 years as QB coach under Parcells.
And, for the record, there are 32 coaches this year who are "potentially this years Super Bowl winner"....that was one of the dumbest statement ever.
TFBuckFutter says: November 4, 2009 10:12 PM
"You can't even argue with it. Parcells was a .500 coach when Belichick wasn't his defensive coordinator."
You're using faulty logic and a very small sample size. This works both ways as I will show you in a minute as to Belichick's under .500 record without Tom Brady.
First, Parcells took over a 1-15 Patriots team who hadn't seen the playoffs in 8 years and had them 10-6 and on the rise in '95 when Belichick came aboard. Parcells Pats drafted Pr Bowlers McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, Troy Brown, Ted Johnson etc. You might have heard of these same guys on Belichick's Super Bowl Pats teams. LOL.
In Dallas Parcells took over a depleted Cowboys team who finished 5-11 for 3 consecutive seasons before he got there. So Parcells had 5 years without Belichick and took over two very serious rebuilding projects in the process.
Now let's look at Belichick's record without Tom Brady. Belichick was 36-44 with Cleveland after inheriting a 6-10 Browns team with 5 Pro Bowlers. So Belichick's record (46-50) without Brady is worse than Parcells record without Belichick. Despite Parcells dealing with much more inferior talent during this comparison period.
Now ask yourself how is it that Parcells could win with Bledsoe (Super Bowl appearance) and Vinny T (AFC Champ appearance), yet Belichick could not win with either as his quarterback in New England and Cleveland? Brady is the obvious difference maker...
TFBuckFutter says: November 4, 2009 10:12 PM
"You can't even argue with it. Parcells was a .500 coach when Belichick wasn't his defensive coordinator."
You're using faulty logic and a very small sample size. This works both ways as I will show you in a minute as to Belichick's under .500 record without Tom Brady.
First, Parcells took over a 1-15 Patriots team who hadn't seen the playoffs in 8 years and had them 10-6 and on the rise in '95 when Belichick came aboard. Parcells Pats drafted Pr Bowlers McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, Troy Brown, Ted Johnson etc. You might have heard of these same guys on Belichick's Super Bowl Pats teams. LOL.
In Dallas Parcells took over a depleted Cowboys team who finished 5-11 for 3 consecutive seasons before he got there. So Parcells had 5 years without Belichick and took over two very serious rebuilding projects in the process.
Now let's look at Belichick's record without Tom Brady. Belichick was 36-44 with Cleveland after inheriting a 6-10 Browns team with 5 Pro Bowlers. So Belichick's record (46-50) without Brady is worse than Parcells record without Belichick. Despite Parcells dealing with much more inferior talent during this comparison period.
Now ask yourself how is it that Parcells could win with Bledsoe (Super Bowl appearance) and Vinny T (AFC Champ appearance), yet Belichick could not win with either as his quarterback in New England and Cleveland? Brady is the obvious difference maker...
Also I should add that those Giants teams before Belichick (Special teams coach, then LB coach) took over as the Defensive Coordinator...ranked 5th in yards allowed in '83 and 8th in points allowed in '84. So they were well on their way before little Bill took over there defensively.
Again in this case Belichick inherits an outstanding young and developing group with LT (25), Banks (23), Marshall (23) etc etc who were already being developed by Parcells staff. Lawrence Taylor and crew wasn't going to all of a sudden start sucking because Belichick wasn't his coach, believe me.
overkil2 says: "a good HC or manager for that matter surrounds himself with good people."
Absolutely correct overkil2. And it ends here for myself. Because either Parcells gets credit for putting together the teams, staff and players he did as a head coach and Belichick gets the same...or they don't. It can't be one way and not the other.
Bill Walsh was a great coach and Joe Montana was a great player. Walsh's staff and other players (Lott, Rice etc) were also great and that's what made his 49ers teams great. Same with Parcells teams.
Asswipe, Like I said intially....Parcells is very comparable to Marty Schottenheimer. He's good at turning around a bad franchise.
It's just, he can't do anything with them once he gets them to the playoffs.
Unless he has Belichick to help him along.
"Now ask yourself how is it that Parcells could win with Bledsoe (Super Bowl appearance)"
Parcells was 22-27 with New England before Belichick came aboard. With Belichick in New England, he was 11-5 with an AFC Championship (following a 6-10 season). IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE. Hell, even if you want to discount his first bad season when trying to reshape the roster, he was 16-16 (one caveat though, if you want to do that, you have to throw out Belichick's 5-11 first season with New England when he was trying to do the same).
Without Belichick at all: 55-57 (.491)
Without Belichick Coordinating Defense (or acting as "assistant head coach"): 67-77 (.465)
With Belichick controlling the defense: 95-54 (.638)
Why are we even arguing this? Seriously?
"Well I guess Belichick has identified the answer for the current Raiders petition http://messagetoal.com"
LOL what possibly makes you think that any coach with a successful record would take on the Raiders gig at this point ?
NOONE who is competent will take the Raiders coaching position while Al Davis remains the owner. Most of the better candidates he wanted to interview the last couple times refused to do so, and certainly the best ones out there for next year will just laugh at the thought.
Until Davis is gone, you guys are screwed and your team will remain bottom feeders.
Belichick complimented (extensively) the Tampa Bay Buccaneers wh0 have failed to win a game so far.
He complimented the Tennessee Titans before blowing them out 59-0 (although the game could have been 59-3 or so but the Titans decided to scrap caring about the blowout and try to score a TD).
Belichick would compliment a high school football team if the Patriots were about to play them. You'd think they were the greatest team to ever play football.
He's dead on with his comments too. Parcells is the standard for scouting and getting people into position to turn a football team around.
He is NOT a good coach. Organizations that have had Parcells and not Belichick have been 64-64 and won a grand total of zero playoff games (0-4). Belichick without Parcells... 62% wins 3 rings. Parcells without Belichick, 0 rings, 50% wins.
Belichick won a playoff game coaching in Cleveland... in CLEVELAND. Yes, The garbage Browns one a playoff game under Belichick. Parcells couldn't even do that with the Cowboys, Jets, or Dolphins. (or Patriots before Belichick got there)
Yes, coaches have to have good players to win with and have a bit of luck to not get victimized by injuries, but elite coaches are what make teams great.
I'll take Belichick.
The relationship with Mangini soured because of how Mangini handled the move to the Jets. On the plane ride back from the Pats' playoff loss to the Broncos, Mangini was openly trying to recruit assistant coaches to leave with him to go to the Jets. Spygate just made things worse.
"Now ask yourself how is it that Parcells could win with Bledsoe (Super Bowl appearance) and Vinny T (AFC Champ appearance), yet Belichick could not win with either as his quarterback in New England and Cleveland? Brady is the obvious difference maker..."
^^^^^^^^
Lest you forget Belichick's Patriots version 2008, with an aging, ineffective defense and no Tom Brady: 11-5.
Look, both coaches are future hall of famers and pitting the two against each other is pointless. That said, if I needed a guy to come in, rebuild and change the culture of an organization, I'd take Parcells. If I had a team of average players who I wanted to get the most out of, I'd take Belichick.
Mangina doesnt even belong in the conversation with the two Bill's. The two Bill's are great at what they do. Mangina is just a rat.
@TFBuckFutter
As previously talked about when Belichick had no control as a coordinator, the '84 Giants team went 9-7, defeated the Rams in the playoffs and had the 8th ranked defense in the NFL. For all the Belichick ball washers here, don't be so naive as to think that little Bill made that defense or team. Parcells and the late great George Young made that great Giants team. That team was well on it's way when Parcells appointed Belichick as the DC.
prophet of the light says: November 5, 2009 3:16
"Belichick without Parcells... 62% wins 3 rings. Parcells without Belichick, 0 rings, 50% wins.
Belichick won a playoff game coaching in Cleveland... in CLEVELAND. Yes, The garbage Browns one a playoff game under Belichick. Parcells couldn't even do that with the Cowboys. "
Belichick without Brady 46% wins, 0 rings. Suck on that one for awhile...
In '91 Belichick inherits Pro Bowlers Kosar, Mack, Metcalf, Clay Matthews, Turner from a team that was 9-6-1 and won the AFC East in '89. Compare that team to the garbage Parcells inherited in New England and Dallas. And his Dallas team was a Romo fumbled snap of a 20 yard field goal away from a playoff win.
I know it's the Pats fans saying that Parcells has never won a championship without Belichek. It is everybody else that loves Parcells that says that Belichek has not won a championship without Brady.
Here are the facts Parcells has rebuilt alot of teams and made them superbowl contenders. the Pat were one of those teams. They were the champs for three years in the early 00s'. The Parcells foundation was set and Belichek took over and won.
The players from the Parcells era are gone now. If Belichek ever leaves the Pats and rebuilds as many team as Parcells has and won a Superbowl ring with every team he has rebuilt then saying Parcells has not won a Superbowl without Belichek would be valid.
The fact of the matter is that Belichek has never built a Superbowl contender, he has only been given the reigns to one and maintained it. The same could be said of Jon Gruden. Tony Dungy built that Bucs team not Gruden. Gruden could not maintain it.
Obviously Belichek is a good coach because he maintains an excellent team, which is a consistent winner.
Having said all of that I think we all want to be right about this subject because of pride for our team. Truth is that we will never know whether we were right. If Belichek leaves the Pats and rebuilds many teams and goes to the Superbowl then we will know.
On the Tom Brady/Belichek comparison I would like to say that a good team doesn't need a great qb, just and average one. example Baltimore winning with Dilfer and Tampa Bay winning with Brad Johnson. Bill Parcells won the Superbowl with Jeff Hostetler as QB and Otis Anderson as a RB in 1990. So you can't really use the old Belichek not winning without Tom Brady, but he did show he can win with Matt Cassel, maybe on a superbowl but 11 games. That's pretty good if you ask me.
hayward giablommi says: November 5, 2009 8:52
"if I needed a guy to come in, rebuild and change the culture of an organization, I'd take Parcells. If I had a team of average players who I wanted to get the most out of, I'd take Belichick."
So you are saying Parcells '03 Cowboys (10-6) team lead by Quincy Carter, Hambrick, Glenn, Glover, Nguyen etc had more talent than Belichick's Patriots last year with Cassel, Moss, Welker, Seymour, Wilfork, Bruschi etc? LOL!
How about Parcells '94 Patriots playoff team (10-6) lead by Bledsoe, Butts, Brisby, Coates, Slade, Vincent Brown etc compared to Cassel, Moss, Welker, Syemour, Bruschi? LOL!
We obviously have a different opinion on what an average player is...
nikin78 says: November 5, 2009 11:47 AM
"On the Tom Brady/Belichek comparison I would like to say that a good team doesn't need a great qb, just and average one. example Baltimore winning with Dilfer and Tampa Bay winning with Brad Johnson. Bill Parcells won the Superbowl with Jeff Hostetler as QB and Otis Anderson as a RB in 1990."
Listing exceptions to the great QB rule doesn't make it an accurate statement. Those two teams (Ravens, Bucs) had outstanding defenses.
The fact is the only teams who won a Super Bowl without a Hall of Fame quarterback or future Hall of Fame quarterback are the Raiders, Redskins, Bears, Giants, Ravens and Bucs. That is far less than 25% of all the 43 Super Bowls that have been played. Not a very good average. Shows it to be a very difficult task.
Every one of those teams either had outstanding defenses or outstanding offensive lines along with an outstanding running game or running back. We are talking multiple Hall of Famers here, not "good teams" or "good players"...great ones. Hall of Famers.
The fact remains Belichick has never even sniffed a Conference Championship or Super Bowl without Tom Brady and has only made the playoffs once in six years without Tom Brady.
While Parcells has been to 4 Conference Championships with 4 different quarterbacks (Simms, Hoss, Bledsoe, Vinny), been to 3 Super Bowls with 3 different quarterbacks (Simms, Hoss, Bledsoe) and has won two Super Bowls with two different quarterbacks (Simms, Hoss).
The only coach on that level is Joe Gibbs. Period.
Asswipe Johnson (Pronounced Az-Wee-Pay) says: November 5, 2009 11:48 AM
"The fact remains Belichick has never even sniffed a Conference Championship or Super Bowl without Tom Brady and has only made the playoffs once in six years without Tom Brady."
To compare in eight years without Belichick as his DC, Parcells has taken three teams to the playoffs with three different quarterbacks (Simms, Bledsoe, Romo). All three teams were rebuilding projects at the time as Parcells took over a 3-12-1 Giants team, a 1-15 Patriots team and a perennial 5-11 (3 consecutive years) Dallas team.
Parcells never had the benefit of inheriting the multiple Pro Bowl players on these teams, that Belichick had when he took over the teams that Schottenheimer (Browns) and Parcells (Patriots) started building.
In fact, Belichick was so in love with the Patriots team Parcells had started building, that he reneged/backed out on a signed contract to become the NY Jets head coach. Which is where this conversation all started...
nikin78
You have it wrong on the NE Pats timeline. Prior to BB and after TunaPete Carroll coached here. He was teamed with a know nothing GM named Bobby Grier. (good guy, bad boss) who along with the owner Bob Kraft choose bad players in the draft and free agents. All disciline was gone as the player could go to Grier and bypass Carroll. Poor Pete did not have a chance. When BB arrived all of these players except a couple were gone within a year. BB built his own team from the ground up. Parcells, Belicheck, Coughlin, and many other good coaches who worked togethor in forming championships in NY, NE or working in Dallas and now around the league are winners. These guys place the players in a position to win.
why is this a "parcells versus belichick" thread?
my initial reaction to the story?
"See Rex? THAT is how you do it."
can we just agree that Belichick & Parcells are two of the better guys to be involved with the NFL. The same can't be said for another guy in the AFCE...
texasPHINSfan says: November 5, 2009 3:54 PM
"why is this a "parcells versus belichick" thread?"
Because a couple Belichick ball washers came in here falsely claiming Parcells only successes are due entirely to Belichick being there.
As one who knows the story from a good friend who has been with Big Bill since the 1980's and works with him for Miami to this day, I took offense to the inaccuracy of their words. Also as a longtime fan of the NFL...I take issue with anyone who attempts to lay claim to Belichick being soley responsible for Parcells successes.
texasPHINSfan says: November 5, 2009 3:54 PM
"can we just agree that Belichick & Parcells are two of the better guys to be involved with the NFL."
Absolutely. The NFL history and legacy of both men speaks for themselves.