Last week, we complained that the decision of the Browns to drop only vague hints regarding the reasons for the departure of G.M. George Kokinis seems grossly unfair to Kokinis.
Comments from owner Randy Lerner suggesting that the developments were "unforeseen" coupled with other circumstances prompted speculation that Kokinis must have done something very wrong, bad, or both to be fired "with cause."
Over the past several days, more details have emerged. Apparently, the team's argument in support of firing Kokinis and not paying him is that Kokinis wasn't working.
Recent reports have suggested that Kokinis was "in over his head," that became "disconnected" from coach Eric Mangini, that the two men had little if any contact, and that Kokinis became so withdrawn that the team "ordered him into counseling."
Did it ever occur to the team that the problem wasn't Kokinis, but Mangini? Lured from Baltimore with a written contract giving Kokinis full authority over the roster, Kokinis made the mistake of believing that the content of the document reflected the true state of affairs. By all appearances, Mangini steamrolled Kokinis. So should it be a surprise if, eventually, Kokinis' demeanor reflected the domination that Mangini was displaying?
Moreover, we've heard from several sources that Kokinis wasn't simply going through the motions.
"He'd call me from his office at midnight," one source said. "George is a worker. All he does is watch film. You can say anything you want about George, but you can't say he didn't work hard."
On one hand, we understand that owner Randy Lerner doesn't want to be responsible for an ever-growing list of buyouts. But this is the wrong way to do business, and it will as a practical matter makes folks with options less likely to trust the team when offered employment.
Moreover, while the Browns benefit from the fact that any legal fight regarding Kokinis' ongoing compensation will be decided by the league office, the Browns need to be careful about what they say and do beyond the confines of the employment relationship. If they keep sending out smoke signals that Kokinis did something far worse than what he really did, Kokinis might be able to seek some relief in a court of law, too.
Browns' case against Kokinis seems to be weak
Posted by Mike Florio on November 10, 2009 11:18 AM ET
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Latest stories in: Cleveland Browns, Latest News and Rumors, Legal, NFL Mobile Exclusives - Legal, Top Stories
Latest stories in: Cleveland Browns, Latest News and Rumors, Legal, NFL Mobile Exclusives - Legal, Top Stories
The brownies are terrible. What a crap franchise
If he truly did not know about the Braylon Edwards trade, he was fired "with cause" and the case is strong.
Also, if that was the case, Mangini could be fired "with cause" as well for making a trade without keeping the GM properly informed.
they're just doing to Kokinis what they did to Brady Quinn, which is basically trying to screw the guy out of money.
If Kokinis had "final authority" on the roster, how does Edwards even get traded without Kokinis' signature? Sounds fishy to me.
The Browns are a penny wise and a pound foolish. Yeah they could save some money not paying this man, but in the long run, no competent GM or rising star is going to want to work for the Browns.
So Mangini has alienated the players and acted in ways that preclude free agents or rookies from wanting to go there. Now Lerner is acting in ways that will prevent good executives from wanting to go there.
Hey, if they don't want to compete above the high school level they're going about this the right way.
Every day, the Browns make the Raiders seem more like a "stable" franchise.
You gotta love all these people making judgments with NO CLUE about what actually happened. And of course, that includes PFT.
Maybe the firing *was* unjustified. Maybe it's all because Mangini *is* a prick. The point is, no one outside of the browns offices actually *knows*... and yet...
Who gives a crap? He got fired. Whether or not he gets paid seems about as newsworthy as Mangini not naming a QB, Michael Vick not playing well after his 'vacation', and any story about Brett Favre.
Please don't use the word "moreover" more then once in a story.
Speculation, that's all it is. Keep bashing the Browns...you should rename this site Browns bashers.com
looks like mangina did to kokinis what tannenboob did to mangina.
People like RL who inherit everything and never earn anything don't know how to run anything. End of story.
As a Pats fan I loved the hire of the mangenius by the Browns because I knew he would likely fail then eventually he will get scapegoated by their horrible owner which is what that toilet fodder so richly deserves.
Sources: Browns to go with QuinnComment Email Print Share By Adam Schefter
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The Browns are not making an official announcement regarding their quarterback situation until Wednesday. But two sources said the team is expected to name Brady Quinn the starting quarterback for Monday night's game at Baltimore against the Ravens.
Quinn started Cleveland's first three games before Mangini switched to Anderson for the fourth game against the Cincinnati Bengals.
Anderson now is ranked last in the league in quarterback rating, and has a passer rating of only 3.1 in the fourth quarter.
Adam Schefter is ESPN's NFL Insider.
Whatever happened, and as one poster said, we just don't know, there's enough information out there to paint a picture. And, simply put, the Browns are losing the battle of perception. This IS a big deal.
The Browns just seemed to be messed in the figurative head. How do they possibly think bringing the Kokinis situation to the public domain would bolster their position? Do they think if this goes the distance and the circumstances come out in court it will not further devalue their name? It's not like Kokinis is a hated figure, or that he doesn't have a leg to stand on. His future in football will not be harmed if he takes this to the courts. The future of Mangini, on the other hand, could take a fatal blow. And the future of the Browns to attract talent that will take them out of their rut is also at risk of suffering terribly. The Browns have nothing to gain by putting out poorly constructed spin in a situation where the perception cards are so heavily stacked against them - unless they have facts to completely substantiate their take. And given the type of organization Mangini is running, I find this incredibly doubtful.
On the most superficial level you might think the Browns aren't completely inept. But if you dig a little deeper you enter Bizarro world where up is down and black is white. It really looks like they have no idea what they are doing. This move to bring in a czar like Holmgren for instance. This will only work if the czar has an eye for talent and a set of connections with which to find the right coaches. The only person in football who has done this with any success is Parcells. So going in that direction when nobody else has proven they can do it seems dumb. Again, it may be conventional wisdom that this is the way to go, but conventional wisdom has failed the Browns since they came back into the league. If it ain't broke don't fix it? In Browns Land they've inverted the principle.
In my opinion they need to find a good, young coach who absolutely knows what he wants to do, and then to find good personnel guys and a GM who will enable this vision. Well they already have a good young coach in Ryan and they had a GM/personnel guy in Kokinis. And in typical Browns style, they've done everything they can to screw this up.
The case against Mangini and his little PP looks great. The offense has less touchdowns than the Saints defense.
CKL...you my friend...are an idiot.
trickbunny is right. Tons of speculation going on here...most of which is probably way off base. I guess that's the problem with today's fast-paced media journalism. Anyone can post anything they want, no matter how ridiculous, ill-informed, biased or completely false....and then never eat crow for it...
Mike Florio said:
"the Browns need to be careful about what they say and do beyond the confines of the employment relationship. If they keep sending out smoke signals that Kokinis did something far worse than what he really did, Kokinis might be able to seek some relief in a court of law, too."
One would think if Kokinis is as smart as you imply him to be, that he would have already hired an attorney and started heading that way...then again since he hasn't, maybe there is something more to this "with cause" firing?
Dig deeper, Florio.
Hey Florio......your constant Mangini bashing is becoming humorous. Do you think that you are somehow personally going to get Mangini fired?? All you're doing now is showing your ass. Here are some facts numbnutz:
1.) Mangini took a Herm Edwards destroyed Jets team and produced 2 winning seasons out of three while in NY. If Farve hadn't had arm trouble, who knows where they might have ended last year. Instead of being fired, he might have been coach of the year.
2.) Mangini has more balls than you do. He wasn't afraid (like some teams) to expose the cheating Patriots.
3.) Mangini quickly helped build a solid Jets roster and turned the team around thru draft and free agency. How many pro bowlers did the Jets have last year big boy??
3.) The Browns flat out suck. Coming to Cleveland was a total rebuilding process, not just players, but corporate culture as well. Do you think that happens in 8 games?? They have no QB's as Quinn & Anderson are both backups. They had cancer's that needed to be cut, etc. etc.. Again, do you think this happens in 8 games.
If Mangini is permitted to finish a very difficult task, some people might be very surprised. Deep down even the Browns fans know that sometimes you need to take a step back to take two forward.
JetGreeeen
"As a Pats fan I loved the hire of the mangenius by the Browns because I knew he would likely fail then eventually he will get scapegoated by their horrible owner which is what that toilet fodder so richly deserves."
WOW....someone is still bitter over being exposed as cheaters. They have counselors and drugs to help you. Its not good to carry around all that anger.
"By all appearances, Mangini steamrolled Kokinis."
Any chance PFT could use its vast network of NFL sources and actually do some background research on this and try and get some inside info? Speculative articles like this are the laziest type of journalism out there….
And you people write about Al Davis. At least he has cause as his win over Kiffin will show.
But the Browns it is a pure set up of being cheap. What a low class bunch, try and bury a guy and his living with lies because you do not want to pay the man.
The Browns belong in that pit they call a City in Ohio and they are nothing but Bush League with a joke for a coach and an owner that needs to grow a pair.
And you people write about Al Davis. At least he has cause as his win over Kiffin will show.
But the Browns it is a pure set up of being cheap. What a low class bunch, try and bury a guy and his living with lies because you do not want to pay the man.
The Browns belong in that pit they call a City in Ohio and they are nothing but Bush League with a joke for a coach and an owner that needs to grow a pair.
The Ravens need to file a formal complaint with the league because they were not going to let Kokinis go unless he was the "GM" with final authority on all personnel decisions...
Now that it has been determined that this is NOT the case, the Ravens have a case against the Browns.
JetGreeeen- Careful, Man- you're making way too much sense. People around here (especially our hosts) get awfully touchy when someone starts using common sense, looks at the big picture, and comes off like they know what they're talking about.
:)
Kokinis has been silent throughout this entire ordeal leading one to believe that the Browns probably don't have much of a case against him. You have to believe that Lerner fired Kokinis to appease the angry fans and the critical national media.
The problem was, he fired the wrong guy, but to can Mangini this soon would be admitting that he made a huge mistake. Kokinis wasn't his hire so it was much easier to let him go and try to save face. If Lerner doesn't try to make it look like there is justification for Kokinis' dismissal, then he is all but admitting that he's firing the wrong guy.
You can bet that Lerner will somehow get some fool to be his football czar and when they fire Mangini, Lerner can use them as the excuse.
both Phil Savage and George Kokinis have come out the worse for wear after being the GM of the Browns. Both had sterling reputations as talent evaluators. Phil was on the college side and George was on the pro side. I realize that the Clowns will sooner or later get someone to fill the void, but you have to wonder how anyone would want that job at this point. The fanbase is dwindling. The team has a serious lack of talent. The owner cares more about soccer than football. And once you go there it looks like your career is over. Betcha George wishes he never left Baltimore. He was the #3 man in an organization with a great track record for drafting college talent and signing FA's. Since George left this year, our FA signings have been less than stellar, but now his position is gone and the douchebag that runs the Clowns doesn't want to honor his contract. If it wasn't for the fact that I hate the fans of the Browns, I'd feel sorry for them. Al Lerner who brokered the deal for Modell to come to Baltimore and his son Randy had destroyed what once was a storied franchise. If that miscreant Tony Grossi would only stop bashing Modell when it came to the HOF, we would be happy to lift the curse.
This is unbelievable. Could the PR machine get any worse from Lerner and the Browns right now? Get your head out of your arse, get rid of Mangini and put Ryan in charge for the rest of the year on an interim basis. Give Cribbs his new contract and start creating some freaking goodwill around this stinkin franchise. Pay Kokinis and come out and say you did the wrong thing for once. This is getting out of hand. This whole thing is a slow-motion trainwreck that you just have to watch to see what stupid decision Mangini and Lerner are going to make next. This is worse than when Modell took the team to Baltimore...