Item No. 1? Fire coach Eric Mangini.
We separately recommended that Holmgren settle the claim that former G.M. George Kokinis filed on Monday for the balance of his contract in the wake of his termination for cause.
While talking about the Cleveland situation on Wednesday with a league insider, a connection between the two emerged.
Given the specific content of Kokinis' allegations, the Browns and Holmgren should consider settling with Kokinis and then working directly with him to make a case for firing Mangini with cause, which would cut off his claim for ongoing compensation -- saving far more money than the $4 million or so that would be paid to Kokinis.
Jeffrey Kessler, who represents Kokinis, recently told Tony Grossi of the Cleveland Plain Dealer that Kokinis was fired because he objected to being a "yes man" for Mangini.
"It's George's contention that a variety of promises were made to him about the authority he would have even outside of the contract because he was concerned about that issue," Kessler told Grossi. "It's one of the principal issues he raised before agreeing to move to Cleveland and leave the Ravens.
"There are a lot of representations they made about that and we now believe that the team knew it was not going to honor those representations. They were just made because that's how they induced him to leave the other team."
Those representations also were necessary to secure the ability to pilfer Kokinis from his prior team, the Baltimore Ravens. Absent Kokinis receiving full control over the roster in Cleveland, the Ravens could have told the Browns that Kokinis would not be leaving.Kessler told Grossi that the Kokinis contract provided final say on all personnel matters, and that it also provided that Kokinis would report directly to the owner. Kessler's argument, then, is that Mangini disregarded the contract and dominated the relationship.
And if the evidence supports that Mangini committed such actions in violation of his own contract and/or directives from ownership, the Browns might have enough ammunition to slam the door on Mangini's ability to receive the balance of his contract if Holmgren decides to fire him.
Florio, you and Tony Grossi need to go get a room together.
Why not talk Kokinis into coming back after We fire Mangini. I am sure Holmgren could train him and he was Ozzie Newsomes right hand guy in baltimore. I think Kokinis got a raw deal. Holmgren has got enough stature in the league that he could probally smooth this over then thats one less hire. I am sorry mangini is an idiot and we would be better off bringing back Romeo and that is sad.
Randy Lerner should fire himself for ever hiring Eric Mangini in the first place. I mean really, what has this guy done that warrants two head coaching gigs and an ego that makes him think he should have full control over everything? Bet you didn't know that he was actually DEMOTED in New England the year before he got the NY Jets job. Sure, he kept his Defensive Coordinator title, but Billy St. Hoodie realized that his "boy wonder" couldn't call defenses worth a damn and took the process over himself. I wholeheartedly agree with the Sporting News article; firing Mangini had better be the first thing Holmgren does...really he should have done it 5 minutes after taking the job.
Isn't doing a crap job "cause" for firing? It is in most other jobs.
I think it is slim at best to fire the Gina with cause and it may make future coaching candidates hesitant to sign on with the Browns. This whole thing seems to be a wink-nod agreement between the owner and Gina and if they fire Gina and don't pay him off it is going to be fugly because Gina will need money because no one is going to hire this idiot again.
Al Davis still owns a team so I retract the last part of my statement.
Mangini is gone. Holmgren want a West Coast/4-3 guy. He'll get oone of his guys. I want Gruden. Don't give me this "He's happy in the booth crap." He's a coach. All Holmgren will have to do is appeal to Gruden's massive ego & throw bags of Lerner's money at him.. It'll get done.
Also Holmgren needs to dump BOTH BQ & DA and make a trade for Kevin Kolb.
Oh, and please please please pay Josh Cribbs.
What ever works to get Mangini out of Cleveland is cool by me.
Uh, judge florio: one is fired "for" cause, not, as you said, "woth cause. Can't just make up shit just you cashed a big NBC paycheck, midget.
I am not a big fan of Mangini, but i dont think there is one coach in the world that could have a successful season in Cleveland, they are bad regardless of who is coaching them.
Only coach in the NFL worse than Mangini is Raheem Morris.
JAJ says:
"Holmgren want a West Coast/4-3 guy"
Yes, he is a WC guy, but Holmgren couldn't care less what style of D is run, as long as it is not horrible. Rob Ryan is no Rex, but he has had flashes of competence, and I don't think his fate is tied to Manboobs.
Gruden would be a great hire, as long as he has someone to rope him in on his love affairs with every player he sees. I think Holmgren would be just the guy, as he has a long-standing relationship and Gruden looks up to him. Gruden would allow the Big Show to make personnel decisions without as much fight.
Gruden is an amazing coach, but absolutely horrible as a talent evaluator. Until a guy actually plays for him, that guy is the best player he has ever seen (see Michael Clayton, Cadillac Williams, Gaines Adams, Dexter Jackson, Bruce Gradkowski, everyone who has played a MNF game this year, etc, etc...)
Mike,
While what you say may offer a better financial solution for the club, simply saying that Mangini exceeded his contractual authority is far from making a case for cause. If Kokinis did nothing to over-ride decisions that Mangini was suppose to make and the Browns were notified by Kokinis and did nothing about it/support Mangini, that would simply make the case for Kokinis and Mangini.
Ultimately, the Browns are screwed here. They made a very quick and poor decision last year to hire Mangini. What followed was a slim chance for success.
Holmgren is a great hire for them. Three years from now, when they are perennial division and playoff contenders, we'll have to look up who was involved to remember.
# tlwtowing says: December 24, 2009 8:40 AM
"Why not talk Kokinis into coming back after We fire Mangini. I am sure Holmgren could train him and he was Ozzie Newsomes right hand guy in baltimore. I think Kokinis got a raw deal. Holmgren has got enough stature in the league that he could probally smooth this over then thats one less hire. I am sorry mangini is an idiot and we would be better off bringing back Romeo and that is sad."
Did you think about what you were going to say before you started typing or were you trying to sound like a GIANT moron?
The matter of fact is Mangini traded Braylon Edwards to the Jets without KOKINIS knowledge or consent
Gruden would be perfect. He's psychotic. He's from Sandusky, OH. He coached a SuperBowl team. He meets all my criteria as a solid choice for Browns HC.
The simple fact is that Holmgren and Mangini could never co-exist, as their styles are completely different. As everyone in Cleveland, New York, and New England knows, nobody likes Mangini. Holmgren will want his own coach who can run the West Coast offense. Jon Gruden, perhaps?
Karma is a bitch Mangina....see ya.
And they don't need cause to fire him. Another 4-12 season and the players can't stand him. He never should have been hired in the first place. He is a complete fraud.
@JAJ
I cant wait for the 4-3. I'm about this close to wetting myself over it. This team has been drafting 4-3 guys and trying to force them into the 3-4 for years now and finally we might get some production out of them. As a Browns fan nothing sounds better than Corey Williams and Shaun Rogers in the middle with Kamerion Wimbley coming from the outside as a DE. That's the way it should have been all along. I can't imagine convincing those three to buy in will be difficult for Holmgren.
Maybe now that Holmgren is in town all of this nonsense about turning Cribbs into a running back will stop. He needs to be a slot guy with a legit number one next to him. Cribbs isnt a a number one. He's a wingman. And he's a damn good wingman at that.
# patsSB44champs says: December 24, 2009 9:31 AM
And they don't need cause to fire him. Another 4-12 season and the players can't stand him. He never should have been hired in the first place. He is a complete fraud.
That's the best description of him yet.......FRAUD.
Not Mangini, they just beat Detroit the other week and Kansas City. C'mon
kokinis wont return.
tempting to pay kokinis off in exchange for info to fire mangini with cause (a la al davis), but i dont see it.
lerner probly just wants to move forward (in these cases people usually do), and winning more games in the future will cure a lot of ills.
they have all they need to fire mangini. the players probly started playing harder when they deduced he was a goner for sure. nov 3, in fact.
how about caaaaaaause he sucks?
is this about the 15th story faglio has written about "firing Mangini".....there's something more to this with the author....gotta be...how can you justify this many stories repeating the same thing without having an agenda?
some of you posters are just damn stupid....
wtf did mangini ever do to any of you moron's?
i must be mistaken, i could have swore mangini took over a 4-12 team & hasn't been on the job even a year....
way to give a guy a chance....i wish someone would list specific reasons as to why?
florio, your a dick sometimes
Champ Kind with Sports says: Holmgren couldn't care less what style of D is run, as long as it is not horrible.
You mean like a Defense giving up 34 points to the friggen Kansas City Chiefs?
Terminating coaching contracts for cause gets messy and is not a practice one sees often in the NFL. Both George Kokinis and Eric Mangini would have strong defenses that any dismissal was done not for cause but to deny them their contractual benefits. Mangini has an even better defense than does Kokinis because the Browns left Mangini in as coach for the full season. It appears Kokinis’ dismissal was timed close to the events that the Browns’ will claim gave rise to cause. Kokinis does have a very strong argument that the Browns did not give him the responsibilities they represented both to him and to the Baltimore Ravens.
Performance that leads to losing football games does not equate to cause. The Browns recent history has been one of under achieving on the field and the Browns have performed better than a number of NFL teams this year. Nor can Mr. Lerner shield his own responsibility. Owners of NFL teams are hardly without power and control of their organizations. Common sense will tell both a judge and a jury that Mr. Lerrner just doesn’t want to pay. Sorry, Mr. Lerner, you should have negotiated a buyout clause.
The NFL will put pressure on Lerner to settle at some very high numbers to both Kokinis and Mangini.
Whatever happened to being fired for sucking?
How about firing him "cause" he sucks at his job?
Kokinis stunk. Just like the last Ravens reject the Browns picked up stunk, Phil Savage. Just being to guy who gets Ozzie Newsome's coffee doesn't qualify you to run an NFL team. The league thought so highly of Savage's work in Cleveland that all 31 other teams didn't even give him an interview...he is doing commentary for the Crimson Tide Sports Network now....Kokinis is on the same path....another nobody spat forth from the Ravens front office who is ready to do anything.
Florio, I'm not a lawyer, and I know you are, but aren't Mangini's actions somewhat mitigated by the fact that he had owner Randy Lerner's tacit blessing the whole way through? I mean Mangini can't take away Kokinis' power without someone above letting him get away with it. And he sure as hell can't fire Kokinis without Lerner's blessing. I guarantee any claim vs. Mangini will be met with a similar response. In fact, Lerner might as well go ahead and pay both of them, because from a practical standpoint, nobody that interviews with new GM Mike Holmgren for the HC job is going to want the job unless this " for cause" stuff gets straightened out; Al Davis and Randy Lerner shouldn't get to be the only owners in the league that get to refuse to pay their former coaches because they simply were lousy coaches, and then invent a flimsy " for cause " action against them.
I think the new HC for the Browns ends up being Mariucci or Morningwheg
It's funny to think that the Browns could have gone after Josh McDaniels and they went after Mangina instead. Amazing. Josh McD is still a rookie making rookie mistakes sometimes but he's going to be a good coach. Mangina never will be. He's a buffoon.
joedickpack says...
Champ Kind with Sports says: Holmgren couldn't care less what style of D is run, as long as it is not horrible.
You mean like a Defense giving up 34 points to the friggen Kansas City Chiefs?
34 points to the chiefs....DID THE BROWNS WIN THE GAME?
Isn't Eric Mangini a native Cleveland son?
The Termination With Cause stuff is just BS.
Pay what the contract says or ......don't be stupid enough to give a multi-year contract to a failed coach that just got fired by the Jets.
Am I taking crazy pills here?
For the last time Holmgren is not the "Big Show". I don't know who gave him that nickname but it is terrible and doesn't fit. So stop.
@ Kramer
I can understand giving a guy a chance. But you want specifics? The NFL has launched not 1, but 2 seperate investigations into the way eric has handled this team this season. There was the rookie bus ride incident and the james davis' injury. Numerous players have come out and questioned his style. He has completely mishandled the quarterback situation and he still doesn't know how to utilize our best weapon in cribbs. sure everyone is all "he's got a plan, it's working" now, because they won 2 games. They caught the steelers on a short week coming off an embarrasing loss, and needed TWO record breaking performanced to beat the chiefs. Not to mention when he first came here, he completely restructured the training facility to his liking, which is fine since he's the coach, but he removed paintings of legends, people who made this franchise proud. The man just doesn't know how to run a team.
If Mangini dominated his work relationship with Kokinis, don't you think Lerner would be part of the problem (aka counterclaim) for allowing Mangini to have so much control over the organization and essentially breaching Kokinis' contract?? Lerner's an attorney and would likely know when to hide behind his "shy" personality so that he does not open mouth and insert foot.
The Kokinis situation is clear that the Browns don't have a case to be made. Kokinis came to the Browns with the understanding that his role would be that of a GM... not a lateral move.
In reality he answered to the Coach - not the coach to the GM and did not have the final say on personnel matters. This is clear as others pointed out on the Braylon Edwards trade where Kokinis was not even advised.
The Browns may have a better case with firing Mangini with cause as Mangini is on the record stating that he didn't know about Quinn's contract escalators (that would kick in if he had played him).
That's incompetence on the part of a coach and Mangini has given the Browns all the ammunition they need on that and other incidences of incompetence.
Better to have a fresh start with a now stripped down, cap friendly team with 11 draft picks as well for Holmgren to build upon, getting the PR boost of fan excitement that comes with a new coach... the boost that Mangini never brought to Cleveland.
The bottom line for Lerner is that fans are so excited about the direction of the team that they face a blackout possibility for nearly every home game. That's not fan support for a coach and it's hitting Lerner in the pocketbook. That alone means it's one and done for Eric the Rat.
# scrapdawg12 says: December 24, 2009 9:52 AM
Not Mangini, they just beat Detroit the other week and Kansas City. C'mon
_____________________________________
Errr...I think you turned that game off a bit early there. The Browns lost to the Lions.
"In a recent item for SportingNews.com, we took the liberty of creating for Browns new President Mike Holmgren a list..."
Lord, and you accuse Favre of having a big ego and not knowing when to shut up.
MH is likely headed to the NFL Hall of Fame. PFT is definately headed for the NFL Hall of Shame for horrific journalism.
There is no story here. Just conjecture and opinion.
Is writing "what if" scenarios, instead of news from around the league, going to become the norm here.
Welcome to PFE: Pro Football Editorial.
gag.
Chapnasty2 says:
December 24, 2009 11:29 AM
For the last time Holmgren is not the "Big Show". I don't know who gave him that nickname but it is terrible and doesn't fit. So stop.
I agree! His nickname is "The Walrus."
# downwithdansnyder says: December 24, 2009 8:57 AM
Isn't doing a crap job "cause" for firing? It is in most other jobs.
-------------------------------------------------
It is a cause for firing in the NFL. But the issue here is can the "cause" justify not having to pay the remainder of the $$$ owed the Mangenius (hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, I love irony) They could toss him for being horrible, but if he oversteps his bounds and did not play by the established contract rules then they don't have to pay him off either.
# kramer says: 34 points to the chiefs....DID THE BROWNS WIN THE GAME?
Thanks only to the individual effort of one player to run back TWO kickoffs for Touchdowns - a total of 203 yards ... yes.
If not for that super-human achievement that Mangini can claim absolutely no credit for they lose the game thanks to a Defense giving up 34 points to the weakest offense in the league (aside from the Browns).
Do you think Holmgren doesn't pick up on minor details like that?
And isn't the point you were trying to make that the Defense under Mangini is actually GOOD? Maybe you consider 34 points to the Chiefs a good defense?
Try to do better next time you attempt some smack talk. Inserting a penis reference in someone's name simply won't do.
In the Sporting News piece, Florio recommends downgrading or firing Jim Brown. Wrong. Brown is a real human with unique reflections and unsurpassed respect. His perspective is sometimes idiosyncratic. Fine. Keep Brown. Ditching Brown would send every bad signal in the Book of Bad Signals. And the Browns will always benefit from Brown. He is an asset.
Ditch Kosar. I agree with this entirely. Useless person.
Every year at the time other teams are discussing playoffs, we're discussing who our new coach will be and who we'll pick in the draft. It gets old after, oh, a year or 16....Holmgren BETTER right the ship or this franchise is going to lose a second generation in a row.
Cripes. And you wonder why Americans hate lawyers. This whole story with the strategy and the shenanigans and the plots just makes us regular folks sick. Lawyers run the world. And not in a good way.
Fire Mangini and pay Kokinis.
Don't fret about a few million dollars here or there -- to these folks, that is like the twenty in your wallet. Florio: get real.
As normal, this article is as ignorant as the person writing it.
Crawl into a hole please and thanks!
Hey Joe Six Pack, you don't think Mangini's coaching has anything to do with Cribbs being set up for those kick returns?
Anyway, typical dreck from Florio re: Mangini . . .
I put the chances of this happening, the Browns attempting to and then succeeding in firing Mangini “with cause,” at about .0001%.
Keep in mind that everything you’re reading (and relying on) about the promises made to Kokinis and how they were broken, comes entirely from Kokinis’ lawyers.
Even if these statements are all true, you’d have to establish that Mangini was bound by the contract that the Browns signed with Kokinis, and to do that you’d have to establish that Mangini agreed to be so bound. That is, that Mangini would have had to have accepted a contractual obligation to yield to Kokinis on personnel matters. This would likely have had to have been done by a modification to Mangini’s original contract.
Could there have possibly been consideration for such a contract?
But even if such a modification was made, it could have been undone, even orally, by Lerner’s uttering as much as a sentence to Mangini.
As it is, Florio doesn't have the contracts, the factual predicate for the analysis of both comes entirely from one side, and all of this speculation requires an assumption that Eric Mangini would have entered into a contract and broken that contract without regard to consequences.
I guess it’s fun for people who don’t like Mangini to speculate like this, though.
Florio you have some of the worst logic I've ever witnessed. You want Mangini fired in case he starts having success in which case Holmgren would be stuck with him? Isn't the whole point of being a coach to have success? Then you suggest replacing him with JIM ZORN!?!? That might be the DUMBEST thing I have ever read in my entire life.
Mangini must have had his lunch money stolen by an athlete as a kid, as he is now the bully boss from hell. He was a horror show in NY.
Anyone who has worked a decade or 3 in life has had to work for one of these jerks . I've found that it is harder to work for someone you like as you don't want to let them down. Mangini would be easy to work for. He would get nothing.
I feel bad for the High School players he eventually coaches.
For someone who supposedly has a law degree, whenever you pontificate on the law any other lawyers in the room must cringe. As also pointed out by another poster, exceeding his authority only has consequences if a) his principal is hurt and 2) his principal objects. Did Mangini scramble any Kokinis calls to the owner so that they could not be made? Did Kokinis notify the league that he was general manager and no trade was approved? Did he hire armed guards so that Kokinis could not talk to the owner? Did Lerner not know of Kokinis? firing? How is any of what Mangini did cause? Making up stuff and pulling legal theories out of your ass is what gives lawyers everywhere and law a bad name.
Come on, everybody in the NFL thinks Mangini should go, so get rid of him.
Call Al Davis to rent the overhead and get this guy outta there.
I'm not a Browns fan but that guy is just a jerk on every level. He's not a head coach at least not in the NFL.
He's Lame Kiffen with a weight problem. His post game remarks are stupid, he treats players like he was a Nazi and all the guys I know who are Browns fans HATE HIM!
Get him outta there!