Faced with a fresh set of sexual assault allegations, should Ben Roethlisberger make like the mob and “go to the mattresses” (probably not the best metaphor) or should he apply a more pragmatic approach?
We suggest the latter.
For more, here’s our Wednesday submission to SportingNews.com.
Latest Stories in: Features, Legal, Pittsburgh Steelers, Rumor Mill, Top Stories
This is an unofficial and independent source of news and information not affiliated with any team(s) or the National Football League (NFL).
Corrections. Independent Programming Report. AdChoices
Copyright © 2010-2012 NBC Sports. Images provided by Getty Images. Powered by WordPress.com VIP.
Really? I’m glad you’re not my lawyer.
Never!!! Don’t give in to those skanks, Ben!
Agreed. Although, if he did assault this gal, he should go to jail.
Well a bargain would benefit him in the short run, it would also show admission to guilt!
I am not a Steelers fan and I love to him taken through the ringer, but I am a 30+ year old man, that works in the real world!
If I didn’t do anything wrong, then I would fight it through to the finish!
But, if he strikes a deal, the league cna possibly suspend him for misconduct, especially sexual misconduct! Because it can be considered an admission to guilt, to get rid of the problem.
Well if he offers to settle, does that imply guilt?
I suggest to Ruthlessraper letting the Georgia police smell his fingers. That’s the only way we’ll know if he did anything or not…
I am glad I have Dennis Dixon on my Dynasty FF team.
Mike,
How can you give him that advice? The legal process needs to play out here. Paying off this girl, if he’s guilty, continues a pattern of pro athletes committing crimes, and buying their way out of consequences. IMHO, the first time a charge is levied, I can understand the possibility of it being untrue. Each additional time, you have to start to question his innocence. Big Ben is a great example of athletes living a lifestyle that makes them entitled to do things the rest of us would be arrested for. Rape and sexual assault are heinous crimes, and serious charges. He should have to go through the legal process. Should he be found innocent, he should SUE HER! Should he be found guilty, he should not avoid jail because of celebrity status. And I’m actually insulted that you would suggest he settle. Do you have a daughter? Would you feel this way if he did this to YOUR daughter? By suggesting he settle and get on with his career, you’re showing to be part of the problem, not the solution.
If he’s actually guilty, yes, he should.
If not, fight with every dime you have to claim your innocence.
Sorry Mike, but I have to agree with the dissenters on TSN. If you are innocent, you simply open the door to future proceedings, and you close the door to ever walking out in public again. Unlike others, I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth of this situation and as stated countless times before–just how is this charge proven in court???? Can someone answer? It always gets down to his word versus hers.
That said, wouldn’t it behoove Ben to wait it out? How can the guy be convicted, and how can the NFL suspend him?
Seriously? You never, ever settle a lawsuit before it’s commenced, especially if there is a risk of criminal chargers. Stop playing the lawyer role. You sound like Nancy Grace – also an idiot.
There is one problem with that advice Florio.
If he is actually innocent, it will just invite more women to file claims against him as a way to strike it rich quick. If he is innocent, he should file counter charges against her for defamation of character among other things.
Now, on the other hand, if he did it, your advice is probably good but I still hope he doesn’t take it. If he actually assaulted this woman I hope he gets put in jail where he would belong.
Unfortunately, like I said in the comments of another post, none of us are likely to ever know what really happened that night. So what he does from here on out will shape how the public perceives him going forward.
Florio- you write “Surely, there’s a number north of $100,000 and south of $1 million that she’d take to waive any civil claims and drop her charges.”
What you are suggesting is illegal. You can’t pay a victim to “drop her charges.” How do you not know this? Your an attorney, right?
What the hell is behind all your posts about a forthcoming civil suit, Florio? The girl (have a hard time calling a 20 year old co-ed a “woman”) hasn’t said boo about a civil suit and is taking all the right steps in this criminal investigation against a millionaire NFL franchise player who has already defended himself against one sexual assault charge.
You’ve got half the idiots on this website thinking she’s either already filed a civil suit, or is going to any day now. Why not let this criminal investigation play out before you start doing Roethlisberger’s legal team the favor of getting her tarred and feathered with accusations of “gold digging”. I can’t believe how hard you and PFT are going after her.
Your comment “During a Monday press conference, authorities in Milledgeville acknowledged that the woman accusing Roethlisberger of sexual assault has hired a lawyer. This means that, at some point, she’ll sue the two-time Super Bowl-winning signal-caller” makes a GIANT assumption. What if Roethlisberger IS a sexual predator, Florio? Are you willing to overlook that in your zeal to defend his charcter by trashing this young girl as a gold-digger?
You have a lot more responsibility here than to be this casual in tarnishing this girl. Right now, her reputation is a lot more credible than HIS. He’s got one sexual assault under his belt already, and was happily bringing an underage 20 year old college student “pub crawling” and plying her with drinks. As a 28 year old NFL veteran, what does that say about HIS character compared to hers?
Who cares if Roethlisberger is your favorite player, dude has some issues to address and your painting her as a civil suit waiting to happen isn’t really doing anyone any good, including Roethlisberger – if he IS guilty of something here.
It is tragic if he comes away again unscaved after proving several times that he is a sexual predator. Regardless, even if none of which is true and he is a completely innocent man, he still needs to be punished for his ignorance of continually putting himself in places that causes these issues to continue to haunt him, his life, and his career.
Bottom line, he is either a sexual predator that needs to be put on the Predator Watch List, or he is an ignorant POS that needs to be suspended or repremanded in some way shape or form for allowing himself to be put in situations like these which brings very bad publicity to not only his team and teammates, but the league as a whole and the name of professional football players.
Mike Vick served time for a dog fighting ring…. I guess Animal rights are much more important than those of Human Rights.
I have always said and will continue to say, Ben will look sweet in Orange!
good sound advice…tho since he’s hired a “team” of investigators to “look into” the accuser, my fear is Ben is going take the “trash the accuser” route….
Are u freaking kidding me! The fact that she has her own lawyer tells me all I need to know about this “lady”. She’s out for cash and nothing happened..no way I’d settle this except in a court of law.
Settle? In a criminal investigation? This isn’t a civil issue, it’s a criminal issue. You are not settling with the accuser, but you’re settling against the State of Georgia in a criminal case.
In short, he would be a convicted felon if he settled now. And maybe going to prison.
Just remember Crystal Gail Mangum and the Duke rape hoax.
And how the feminazis like Wendy Murpphy had the lacrosse boys guilty as charged and on every TV network.
I hope the fat slob gets suspended by the NFL! This guy has a rep of being a total j*$koff!
No way should he settle this case. She is smart to make these allegations now. HE IS THE PERFECT TARGET RIGHT NOW. Michael Jackson settled a few times for millions but everyone thinks he is a pedifile. She is smart enough to realize that everyone is going to say oh he must have did it, its the second time so he must have done it. Its a brilliant move by this young women, he is already guilty in the eyes of public opion. I hope he fights any and all charges and beats them all. I’m not a steelers fan or a Big Ben fan. I just hate money hungry people who will do anything for a few bucks except work for it. Big Ben is a dope for putting himself in these situations time after time, but a rapist I don’t buy. I can’t blame him though, what man doesn’t want to bang 20 year old college students.
Um, what about actual CHARGES? Paying the victim isn’t going to help Rapistsberger when he is charged by the police.
Unless you are suggesting the victim won’t press charges once she gets the cash.
This is really pissing me off Florio. If they guy is actually a rapist, how can you sit there and say he should pay off the 20 year old girl.
If that was your daughter, would you feel the same?
This is from the same guy who hates Michael Vick. Maybe he should have raped the dogs instead of killed them.
How can anybody that is innocent (not saying that Ben is) just pay off an accuser? This would just fuel the problem of wrongful accusors. If he is guilty, he would be better off paying out the hush money and not let this go to court and prove his guilt to the world. At least that’s how I see it, I could never just pay somebody off, unless I were truly guilty.
Bring on #7…Mikie Vick!! maybe he won’t get sacked as much and throw the ball away!
Ben…1 time..ok…2 times shame on us
wow, thats some really bad legal advice.
but then again all you need is a pair of pants to be an attorney in west viginia?
dont give into this whore if youre really innocent, ben. itll just open the floodgates for future lawsuits and false accusations.
en·ti·tle·ment
Pronunciation: \-ˈtī-təl-mənt\
1 a : the state or condition of being entitled : right b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2 : a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program
3 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges
4 : Ben Roethlisberger
Hey Florio, did you ever think maybe this girl isn’t doing it for the money? Maybe, just maybe he is guilty and she would like to see him prosecuted for it? You just assume because she hired a lawyer she’s seeking money, maybe she knows what Ben’s lawyer is going to try to do to her and her reputation and needs to be able to defend herself.
Ben Roethlisberger sounds like he is trying to be the next Jermey Stevens
I wonder who gets charged for the fact that she was 20 and in the bar. Was she drinking? Can “Big” Ben get charged for that, too? The club, at the very least, can get in trouble for that.
All justice and morally right considerations aside, it’s sound legal advice. The accused has little to gain by another extended legal battle regarding assualt charges, and his access to settlement and legal fees will far outlast the NFL’s patience for his continued actions.
@DB26
What about Big Bens rights?
There is no proof of any wrong doing yet. If there is he will be tried. What DA doesn’t want a high profile case like either of these? The answer isn’t many. The chick in Nev. had no proof, and we will have to wait and see on this one. You don’t think these chicks could be out for money? So if hes not guilty he should be suspended for trying to get a young peice? Please. This will cost him millions if hes guilty or not. If hes not then he shouldn’t be suspended at all. If hes not guilty and doesn’t have to go to jail he should never leave his house again.
Richm2256 – Nicely said. Right on point.
@Richm2256- The other case has gone to a civil suit.
For everyone else- Settling the case now before it a) turns into a civil and criminal suit is absolutely the smartest thing Roethlisberger can do. If Ben settles now, the case gets dropped and goes away. No details come out, no more public embarrassment, but also no real justice is served. He moves forward with little damage and all is forgotten by the start of the season. Such is the nature of our legal system.
I agree that if he’s innocent he should fight it, but sometimes the smartest thing to do is to make it go away as quickly as possible, regardless of guilt or innocence.
That said, I gave Ben the benefit of the doubt during the McNulty thing. She came off as an obsessed wacko from day one, so I didn’t buy her story. That this particular victim was quick to file a complaint reads a bit differently than someone simply out for money.
I could understand one false complaint against a star athlete, though many athletes go their whole careers without ever getting a single complaint against them, so take it for what you will. But two complaints from two different people in two unrelated locations starts to make you wonder.
If Ben did this, hope his a$$ gets locked up, and he gets it back in prison, just as he gave it. And maybe Florio should join him. Ben’s gonna have alot of aggression he’ll need to get out.
He probably just fondled her breasts or grabbed her azz. Is that worth jail time? If it were a regular guy like you or me this wouldn’t even be news. No charges would’ve ever been filed and I’m sure I wouldn’t have had to come out of pocket for a lawyer. That’s the price you pay for celebrity status. There’s a lot of money hungry h*%s out here, believe that!
Of course- the rich always make problems go away with money.
Florio, I used to just get annoyed by Steeler love antics, but in this instance, you have crossed the line of no return.
If you do consider yourself, even an ouch of a journalist, you’ll shut the heck up.
Independent, moral, values, due diligence… Do any one these words apply to your work these days?
You have a platform to speak to a large audience, try and use in an an unbiased way. I personally am done with you. You really have shown your true colors on this one.
You give a rats a%% about the girl- just as long as Ben starts this fall.
I too think that it’s in bad taste to state that Roethlisberger paying off his accuser would in any way resolve the issue if he is in fact guilty of sexual assault.
It’s an insult to any person who has ever been assaulted, gender aside, to say that throwing money at them is a replacement for real justice.
It takes a great deal of bravery on the part of an assault victim to go through with filing criminal charges in this kind of case. I can nearly guarantee that she’s already been warned how moving forward will essentially mean having her life (past and present) ripped apart by Roethlisberger’s defense team and probably some unsympathetic media outlets as well.
If Roethlisberger is guilty of the accusations in either Nevada or Georgia, he should be in jail–period, end of story. Sexual assault is a serious crime with long term repercussions for the victim.
There’s no “striking a deal” that will undo that kind of damage–it just projects that it’s okay to sweep this kind of thing under the rug. It is not. The closest thing to undoing the hurt would be the comfort of knowing that the person who committed the crime is behind bars where they won’t hurt anyone else.
DB26 says:
March 10, 2010 11:16 AM
Mike Vick served time for a dog fighting ring…. I guess Animal rights are much more important than those of Human Rights.
=========================================================
He didn’t. He served time for running an illegal interstate gambling ring. Unfortunately he never saw a day in prison for the torture and abuse of those animals.
And as JustMike stated, regardless of the moral issues involved, the advice given is smart legal advice. You don’t have to like it, but it is good advice.
From what I have read so far, I doubt the victim would settle (not press criminal charges) this matter at this point.
And geez Florio stop misleading everyone into believing this is a civil matter and all about $. It is anything but that at this point.
Oh yeah, by all means cut her a check. Pffftt.
Look what that did for Michael Jackson.
Nothing screams “guilty” quite like a $25 million out of court settlement.
Florio:
As a fellow attorney, I can’t believe you would publish an article like this in a national publication.
1. You don’t know the facts. Without knowing the facts, it is presumptious, to say the least, to give any unsolicited “legal advice.”
2. You wrongly imply that because she has hired an attorney she is looking to proceed with a civil suit. It is not uncommon for people to hire legal counsel, to act as a buffer and spokesperson, when they are involved in a matter that will invariably lead to national publicity. I am curious without knowing the facts, what was your basis for speculating on what she potentially would accept as a settlement?
Mike, I would disagree with your opinion, primarily for the following reason.
While there are some lawsuits that make sense to settle even if one is not guilty, for example when the cost of defending it is more than the cost of settlement and where there is nothing else that significant to consider by the defendent, in this case that does not seem to apply. In this matter, the real “cost” to Ben is his reputation. If he decides to offer some settlement to avoid any civil case, then he will be considered in the court of public opinion to be more guilty than not. That is just the way it is in my opinion. I would feel that way. He clearly has enough money to fight this assuming he is innocent so there should be no incentive whatsoever to offer a settlement if he is innocent.
If he offers a settlement, then I would never think of Ben in the same way again, as a Steeler fan. As a Steeler fan I would still hope he does well as a football player on my team (for example the same as Bengals and Ravens fans supported their players who were associated with poor behaviors), but consider him a sub-human off the field and never spend another penny on Ben merch, nor have another nice thing to say about him when he was not playing football. And in thinking about that, I would probably not mind one bit if the Steelers would release him if he settles. I am sick and tired of all the nonsense the team and fans have had to experience because of Ben at this point. If he is innocent, all is forgiven. If he is not, all is done with. Again, I am waiting for this to play out, like many Steeler fans, but unlike many morons who troll your threads.
Once I can see it being a money thing, twice the guy is guilty…period.
I have worked many years around sexually devient people, and pretty much can tell when a person is innocent or not. In this case I really believe the guy is guilty.
Florio’s advice seems sound to me. Once a person has been accused the stigma hangs over them for good no matter the outcome of the trial. People still think Ray Lewis is a murderer and Mark Chumura is a rapist even though they were both found innocent in their trials. The damage is already done.
Florio, while you have your attorney hat on, maybe you could explain to us what “Sexual Manipulation” is and how that factors into the equation? Would that indicate that Roethlisberger planned to take advantage of her by perhaps getting her too drunk to consent?
What is criminal is how athletes and celebrities can buy off victims to avoid jail time.
sickening.
I think you got this right on Mike, I dont agree with you all the time but you hit a home run with this article.
No wonder people HATE ATTORNEYS….Sure pay her off and keep the RAPIST ON THE STREET…..till it’s someone else daughter …what then…pay her off too…
So long as he has money…keep settling the suits…RAPE ALL DAY LONG …..RAPE 15, 20 GIRLS…so long as you can afford to.
YOU’RE A SCHMUK FLORIO!
In that case WP you sexually assaulted me and when my friend comes on here to accuse you a second time you will automatically be a pervert. What a dumbass. WP use your brain please.
Richm2256 & mmdd1111:
I agree with both of your comments – well said.
As for Florio, you make an awful lot of assumptions for the small amount of information that has been revealed. I think you use your past profession as an excuse to make unsubstantiated inferences and state them as fact.
First, she has not filed a civil suit, and her hiring of an attorney does not mean she will.
Second, what makes you think that she or her family will take ANY amount of money to see her assaulter walk away free to do the same thing to someone else, if, in fact, the accusations are true?
Third, even if the girl refuses to tesify, there’s already a police report and physical evidence from the hospital. She doesn’t have the choice to drop/not file charges. That is up to the discretion of the prosecutor, who I really hope has more legal knowledge than you do…
Mike – since when are you in the business of advising sociopaths on how to clean up their messes? The guy that scuttled his career is Rothlisberger. Suggesting that he buy his way out of trouble because he can is a typical lawyer’s way of manipulating the system. There should never be a way that a rapist because he has money should be able to buy his way out of a jam. He put himself there in the first place, because as an athlete he thinks of himself as bullet proof, a larger societal problem. Don’t you become a standard bearer for what is wrong with the system. As a recovering attorney, refrain from dispensing helpful advise to an alleged criminal.
pretty evident why florio is no longer a practising lawyer. the only question is what career path he moves onto after football blogger finally dries up because there is no way he can make it through another season of weekly spots on NBC’s coverage
You can bribe someone to drop criminal charges?
Civil charges, sure, but criminal charges?
And after the charges are submitted and the DA gets it, isn’t it out of the accuser’s hands?
Anyone know a lawyer? And one a little more credible than Florio?
AZ Red Bird says:
March 10, 2010 12:29 PM
No wonder people HATE ATTORNEYS….Sure pay her off and keep the RAPIST ON THE STREET…..till it’s someone else daughter …what then…pay her off too…
So long as he has money…keep settling the suits…RAPE ALL DAY LONG …..RAPE 15, 20 GIRLS…so long as you can afford to.
YOU’RE A SCHMUK FLORIO!
=====================================
While I’m personally disgusted with Ben’s actions and feel his behavior needs to be looked in to a bit more, you can’t blame an attorney for using a legally available tool to help his client get off. The attorney’s sole job is to to what’s best for the client he represents, same as it’s an agent’s job to get the best deal possible for the person he represents. We may not agree on the outcome or like the arrangements, but we can’t blame people for using legally available tools to help them.
Mike, in the interest of disclosure, you should identify yourself as a lifelong Stillers fan, and biased in favor of Roethlisberger, which may explain your clouded judgement in this particular instance.
@RICHM225
While I will agree that he is scummy, he hasn’t been charged with sexual assult just yet. If she can accuse him and everyone says hes guilty before charges are even brought then I or anyone can call her a gold digger. If you or anyone want to make an assumption hes guilty thats your right, and its mine to call her a gold digger. As far as the buying her drinks thing, I’m sure hes not the only 28 year old to buy a 20 year old chick drinks before. She didn’t have to drink them, what 20 year old in a bar doesn’t want to get loaded? Clearly she had intentions that night to drink underage. I don’t care that she was drinking, I feel 21 is about 3 years over what the leagl age should be.(if you can go to war then why not a bar). Clearly many of us can and will differ on where we stand as far as this case goes. I just hope everyone doesn’t assume that he is a rapist before he is charged and convicted of said offense. Being called a gold digger isn’t nearly as bad as being called a rapist.
I think some of you guys are missing something here- Florio isn’t sticking up for Ben. He’s not justifying Ben’s actions, and he’s not saying what Ben did, if anything, is ok. He’s merely pointing out the smartest course of action Ben can take in this case, which is to settle it before it blows up bigger than it already is.
By going to trial, Ben runs the risk of jail time, plus a severe loss in compensation and reputation. If he just settles before it becomes an issue, the story gets it’s 15 minutes in the news cycle and then goes away. Regardless of whether you agree with the method or not, it’s smart advice.
I don’t think we’ll ever know the real story on this one but if we do and somehow Ben is vindicated, I hope he will bend over on national TV so all of the Ravens and Patriot nation—that apparently live in trailer parks–can kiss his ass.
Paying people off makes you look guilty in the public’s eyes and only encourages more false accusations against people with money. If ten people with dishonest motives accuse you of something it doesn’t mean you’re guilty just stupid for putting yourself in situations where they can make the accusations.
No wonder people HATE ATTORNEYS….Sure pay her off and keep the RAPIST ON THE STREET…..till it’s someone else daughter …what then…pay her off too…
So long as he has money…keep settling the suits…RAPE ALL DAY LONG …..RAPE 15, 20 GIRLS…so long as you can afford to.
YOU’RE A SCHMUK FLORIO!
———————————————
Moron. Let’s se you present your evidenfe that he’s a “rapist”. His defense attorneys in Nevada have emails and IM’s from the first accuser bragging about having slept with him and wanting “to move to Pittsburgh to marry Ben and have his love child”. The rape claim has already been defeated in Nevada. The only holdup is waiting for her to realize she has no case and dropping it.
As for the Georgia issue, there aren’t facts enough in the public domain to warrant such an ignorant and retarded statement by you. so would you kindly STFU.
…on second thought, the comments here strike me as better advice.
Paying her would show potential guilt and that you can be pressured into giving someone money if they want to make up stories.
Some of you are missing Mike’s point. A lawyer’s job is to get a client the best possible outcome. If by stettling with the girl and she drops the charges, then Pig Ben can go about his business. The Steelers and NFL will have no reason to suspend him. Sure he’s a dirt bag, but a FREE dirt bag continuing to play in the NFL.
For those of you who scream about justice, an American court of law is no place to find justice.
CaptainFantastik says:
March 10, 2010 1:26 PM
As for the Georgia issue, there aren’t facts enough in the public domain to warrant such an ignorant and retarded statement by you. so would you kindly STFU.
————————————————-
I’m shocked you are even on this site. Usually when something bad happens to the Steelers you are nowhere to be seen.
Is Ben a rapits? Maybe, maybe not we don’t know yet.
Are you gonna cheer for him when he steps on the field if he is found guilty? Yes you will.
Harrison assualted a woman (Yes it is still considered assualt) and you cheer that guy/
Richm2256 – he does not have a previous sexual assault charge against him. He wasn’t charged with anything because she didn’t go to the police. She went straight to a civil lawsuit for the money.
Also, do you have proof or have you read anywhere that Ben was “plying her with drinks” as you put it? I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere.
I’m shocked you are even on this site. Usually when something bad happens to the Steelers you are nowhere to be seen.
Is Ben a rapits? Maybe, maybe not we don’t know yet.
Are you gonna cheer for him when he steps on the field if he is found guilty? Yes you will.
Harrison assualted a woman (Yes it is still considered assualt) and you cheer that guy/
——————————————–
First of all, you need to pay more attention. I’ve been on just about every thread on this subject stating what an idiot Ben is for putting himself in that position.
Second of all,……..”usually when something bad happens with the Steelers”? There’s not much bad that ever happens with the Steelers. LOL. We have it pretty good on this side of the fence.
Thirdly, If ben is found guilty (rememebr no charges have even been brought) you can bet the Steelers will cut him loose. But if they don’t…no I won’t be cheering for him.
Fourthly, don’t try to act like your franchise is free of players who’ve had issues with the law….or that you stopped cheering your team because of it (not that you even knew there was a team there prior to 2001).
Steelcurtains says:
Also, do you have proof or have you read anywhere that Ben was “plying her with drinks” as you put it? I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere.
————————————————-
Silly me, the Capital is world reknowned for their sasperilla! I should have realized that’s what he was taking her to three different bars for (he admitted taking her to multiple establishments, 3 is the number confirmed by police).
So that means he was buying her drinks?? That’s jumping to conclusions if I’ve ever heard one!!
Just saw this thread. RAVNATION applauding Richm2256 because the two of them are soooo concerned about the girl. If this weren’t such a serious situation, I’d be rolling on the floor laughing. Never have I seen two bigger hypocrites. Neither of those two could care less about that girl. The Pats fan and the Ravens fan hate the Steelers and that’s all this means to them. All you have to do is read their posts throughout the season to see that.
Within 48 hours of this devastating assault, she’s hired a civil litigator specializing in personal injury suits. The attorney representing her in the criminal investigation is the Milledgeville prosecutor, and he has the full resources of the state to back him up. If she’s hired a civil litigator, it’s in preparation for a civil suit.
A little naivete is a dangerous thing. A lot of naivete is just ridiculous.
How does Benny boy settle with Goddell??
HE’S GUILTY! He’s done. He’s gonna get charged and he’s done. He may need to get advise from Vick about how to handle the showers.
STEP A W A Y FROM THE STEELERS.. YOU LOSER!