As part of our ongoing research into the question of whether off-field conduct should keep players out of the Hall of Fame (we’ve done that research in connection with our season preview magazine . . . have we mentioned that we’re doing a season preview magazine?), we came across some strong opinions regarding two receivers who have had, based on their on-field performances, Hall of Fame careers.
Randy Moss and Terrell Owens have been great players, but at times bad teammates. Possibly bad enough to delay their entry into Canton.
We take a closer look at the situation in our latest item for SportingNews.com.
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I don’t buy it for Moss.
Owens has ALWAYS been a pain in the butt teammate, Moss just has his moments.
Plus, Irvin made it in.
And Michael Irvin and Lawrence Taylor were quite the angels
Moss is the man and a Hall of Famer with out a doubt…he’s got too many records and put in too much hard work over the years for his HOF position to be “delayed”
“and Marvin Harrison (despite his off-the-field issues) in the mix, too”
So Owens and Moss might have a tough time getting in because of upstanding human beings like Marvin Harrison being in line in front of them. Are you serious?
Also.. Moss and Culpepper had chemistry.
When Jerry Rice went to Oakland, he got Rich Gannon in MVP form.
Randy Moss got who?
He’s just condusive to a winning atmosphere.
So he’s a little selfish. That’s part of being a WR.
probably true for Owens, and Moss was probably on that path earlier in his career, but he’s been much better with the Pats. If this new agent thing ends up with him re-signing in New England without TO type drama Moss will be first ballot for sure.
If thats the case, Michael Irvin into The Hall sould be reconsidered.
That’s garbage. They are two of the best of all time, when it comes to playing WR specifically. What is the point of the HOF fame if it ceases to recognize the best players to ever play the game?
You are a shitheel for even suggesting this.
not sure that T.O. even gets in. He has had some good seasons but he has had problems with drops and he is a cancer in the locker room.
Randy either. He has been known to take off plays, doesnt like to go across the middle and he even walked off the field one time before a game was over.
and neither have a ring…
sorry but both these guys should be first ballot hall of famers.
How many times have those two been arrested during the course of their career?
If Moss doesn’t make it in on the first ticket the HOF is officially a joke. That guy dominated the game for a long time in a way no other has.
not bad enough yet, based on what i know, to keep them out
but, tell me more…
I think the fact that the Hall of Fame voters are idiots is more a reason why they wouldn’t get in than anything else..
Voters should be Hall of Famers… not writers who have never stepped foot onto a football field in their lives.
Can’t keep a guy out cause he’s an a*hole or selfish. You’d have to kick out all the WR’s.
What a crappy post.
As a Viking fan, it would be great to see Randy make the HOF, however; unless he adds a championship ring to his jewelry collection I don’t see him as a first round HOF’er. Very few “non-champs” make it on the first round.
They may have personality issues in the locker room and with management, but Owens has never legal problems off the field, and Moss’ only problems were with the weed. Nothing like Irvin, who made it in year 3 of eligibility, and LT1, who was a first ballot HOF’er.
T.O. – 1006 rec 14,951 yards 144 TDs
Moss -926 rec 14,465 yards 148 TDs
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James Lofton 764 rec 14,004 yards 75 TDs
Art Monk – 940 rec 12,721 yards 68 TDs
Michael Irvin – 750 rec 11,904 yards 65 TDs.
Stop trying to make the HOF a good guy club Florio. The HOF is for great players. Both these guys will be get in.
I’m not sure how Randy Moss can be considered one of the best receivers of all time. He QUIT on two teams.
To me that ends the discussion. His attitude makes a mockery of all the players who are already enshrined in the hall.
He COULD have been one of the best of all time but he’s not. He should not be elected.
TO was a bad teammate with a bad attitude but to my knowledge he played hard all the time, every play. His teams were better with him on it.
Moss’ teams were not better with him on it.
Gregjennings85 says:
June 2, 2010 2:55 PM
That’s garbage. They are two of the best of all time, when it comes to playing WR specifically. What is the point of the HOF fame if it ceases to recognize the best players to ever play the game?
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What is the point of the HOF?
As a Viking fan, it would be great to see Randy make the HOF, however; unless he adds a championship ring to his jewelry collection I don’t see him as a first round HOF’er. Very few “non-champs” make it on the first round.
If Ray Lewis can kill a guy and get in first ballot, Randy Moss can get in first ballot for dogging it a little.
When you look at Moss’s record and you see what so many of these other idiots have done, he looks like an upstanding guy that maybe expressed himself a little poorly when he was a young man. I’d hate to see my foolish expressions as a young man listed in public. He looks good compared to me! Time to get over the water bottle and meter maid incidents. Oakland is Oakland. That place wasn’t the Black Hole, it was the Sh*t Hole. Moss knew it before we did. I don’t even think they had a QB on those Raider teams and Al’s dementia was just setting in.
Get off Moss’s back. lskynryd87 said it right from the git go.
Obviously, the longer he stays with the Patriots and TB, the better off he will be, but he also needs to do what he can for himself. If he could post another big year with Brady, he could make up in endorsements what he might not get in a long term contract at his age. Hopefully for both parties he works it out with the Pats. They’ve been pretty good for each other. Personally, I might buy one of those Moss Masks. Those are ridiculous
PFT: All Randy Moss, all the time!
\he is first ballot, no question. dumbass.
Why would they want to gain entry into Canton? Canton, TX? Is that where misfit WR’s go after they’re done playing? Is it a retirement home or dude ranch there?
If either player does not get in on the first ballot I hope they refuse induction when they are eventually voted in as a protest and an f-you to the selectors. I’m tired of all this sanctimonious BS. We’re talking two of the greatest playmakers of their generation – anybody who wants to delay their entry into the hall to make a point has personality issues they need to work out.
This is EXACTLY why the Hall of Fame voting process should be changed. There is no doubt that both Randy Moss and Terrell Owens are both first-ballot Hall of Famers, but there are some cynical sportswriters who have Hall of Fame votes will find a way not to vote them in.. Look at Michael Irvin, he had to wait 3 years until he finally got in and Cris Carter STILL has to wait. Both Irvin and Carter had off the field problems, Carter’s were early in his career and Irvin’s were late in his. Michael Irvin and Cris Carter should have both been first-ballot Hall of Famers and I bet most players and coaches that are in the Hall of Fame would agree.
And why are the Hall of Fame votes not made public? I think that the players in question should know who the writers are who decided not to vote for them and why and the voters should be held accountable for explaining why they decided not to vote for a particular player.
To me, I think that Hall of Fame players and coaches would be much better qualified to determine who is or isn’t a Hall of Famer instead of cynical, grudge-holding sportswriters who never played the game. Far too often, I read articles from sportswriters who have a biased opinion towards a particular player( By the way Florio, I haven’t read a positive Randy Moss article from you, they have all been negative, just like this one is), and they are the ones who control the fate of Hall of Famers.
Getting back to the topic, I don’t believe that personal conduct should be considered in determining a Hall of Famer. If that’s the case, then why is Lawrence Taylor or OJ Simpson still in the Hall of Fame? Because they were both GREAT players, and they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, and Moss and Owens both belong in the Hall of Fame.
no way you can compare Moss to T.O. Moss had some WR moments but never dogged his team or players publicly. but on the field both were one of the best, Moss had more back to back years at being the best. HOF is not about your personality it’s about your play
Moss and Owens should get into the Hall first chance, no questions asked. When they are done playing, statistically, they will be the #2 and #3 receivers of all-time in basically every category.
Moss, might not have a ring, but he is the only common player between the top two scoring offenses in the history of the game.
I don’t mind off the field problems being a factor – but there needs to be a balance. So for both Owens and Moss, on one hand, you have overwhelming evidence of great, hall worthy careers, and on the other, you have some instances that weren’t great but neither one ever did anything terrible.
Moss a HOF??? What an overrated bum.
As for Owens………think about this……if Hines Ward or any other number of receivers WITH HANDS……had Owens’ size they would be better than Jerry Rice………….Owens dropped more balls than any Hall of Famer and he is lucky he was born big and strong ……….he is a bum !
The only place you’ll find this opinion is here and in SportingNews — both articles written by Florio (with this as a shameless plug for the other). Hall of Fame is either about numbers or it isn’t.
Numbers says these guys are in.
And if it’s not about numbers, then these two will get ousted somewhere LONG after OJ Simpson is removed from the Hall.
Questionable team mate vs. perjury, larceny and murder. This is a worthwhile argument.
I suppose it’s hard to find stuff to write about throughout the summer…
Mike Florio looks like Brian Griese with a bad haircut.
#2 and #3 all-time in receiving TDs? Both top 10 in receiving yards?
…how can you not put them in the HOF? Michael Irvin wasn’t a quarter of the receiver or even a quarter of the PERSON (which says something) that these guys are, and he’s in.
Some great posts here. It’s certainly a factor if the guys are likeable, winning a ring is favourable, but Moss and Owens are iconic! Maybe not 1st ballot but they gotta go in.
Sorry Randy, but no ring, no bust. Do better in the next life.
Regardless of how much anybody likes or dislikes either Owens or Moss on a personal level, I can’t see any valid reason why either one would not make it into the Hall of Fame in their first year of eligibility. When they retire they’ll most likely rank 2nd and 3rd behind only Jerry Rice in every important receiving category (assuming Owens finds a team to play for this year.)
whatdiga says:
June 2, 2010 3:03 PM
I think the fact that the Hall of Fame voters are idiots is more a reason why they wouldn’t get in than anything else..
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Bingo!
I think Florio smokes pot once in a blue moon.
Irvin was a respected leader on SB winning teams. Owens and Moss have zero rings. Owens is a home wrecker and all about himself. Bill has rehabbed Randy’s image a bit, but the film doesn’t lie…he takes plays off.
Canton isn’t in their future.
The only “Hall” I want to see those two with is DeAngelo Hall. All three of them can go to hell.
Two loud mouths and a quitter.
1. No championship players not being affected is true IF you’re not a white QB (Tarkenton, Marino and Kelly). Anyone questioning Donovan McNabb’s qualifications and THEN trying to use the argument that the defense was more responsible should note that this didn’t keep Tarkenton out.
2. Winning a championship doesn’t always guarantee that you’re going to get in first ballot (Hayes, Irvin and Monk).
3. Just because your QB went in and you were just as responsible for his success, that doesn’t mean you’re going in (The Marks Brothers).
Moss and Owens, in that order, are HOFers BUT I would give Owens less of a chance of making it on the first ballot and maybe even never.
God’s Own Silver and Blue says:
June 2, 2010 3:57 PM
Sorry Randy, but no ring, no bust. Do better in the next life.
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You are an idiot.
Off the top of my head…
Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Barry Sanders, Dickerson, OJ, Sayers, Kellen Windslow, Bruce Smith, Dick Butkus…All amoung the best at their positions, HOFers, no rings. Moss and TO will probably be in the same situation.
I would be pretty surprised if they didn’t get in. There stats were not only on par with others in but ahead of the peers in there generation. They both played in Super Bowls and they both contributed.
The more entertaining question is who is better? Moss in my opinion, but I would rather have TO on my team. He was on my team once before and that worked out just fine, kinda.
look at their TD #’s. Moss will be 2nd only to Rice and TO is way up there too. First ballot HOF’s no doubt or the entire HOF is worthless.
Randy Moss is a first ballot Hall of Famer.
Stop lumping him in with Owens. Two totally different players in almost every respect.
Ray guy has it right, and for that matter if Ray Guy is not in the hall, why should these three stooges be.
Please stop with the Randy quit on his team baloney.
I remember the Vikings incident, when he walked of the field with 2 seconds left. Wasn’t the following week a rarely done playoff victory IN green day?
The infamous “mooning incident.”
Moss was traded to North Korea/Oakland and left to rot in purgatory, only to immediately set the single season touchdown receptions record upon release.
That’s hall of fame chops right there.
The New England quitting incident during a
Victory over Carolina. Didn’t Belichick say the losing team should have bigger problems than criticizing the winning players?
Most ridiculous though process ever. These guys may not be angels in the outfield and are for sure whores in the media atmosphere, but is the Hall of Fame about that? The Hall of Fame is a players accomplishments compared to goals based on the position. They have both superceeded those goals and have both, for the most part, stayed out of trouble with the law, which is really the most important thing in today’s game.
Question Rapistberger? Sure, feel free because there are some deep concerns regarding his interaction with women in a sexual regard. Moss & TO? Well, they may not be what you call a consumate Team Player, but no doubt they are each one of a kind at the position of WR.
I question the decision makers of who gets in if that were to happen and their integrity!
chauncey pullpecker is just under .500 with moss.
he is way under .500 without moss.
moss is a freakin miracle worker.
owens has good numbers ,if u dont count percent of balls caught. but he wrecks locker rooms. 3 and counting.
moss probly 1st ballot. owens gets to wait.
moss probly has a couple of damn good years left. owens is slumping out the door.
“moswesley says: June 2, 2010 5:03 PM
Please stop with the Randy quit on his team baloney.”
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So how can you call it “baloney”, and then go on and list 3 quitting examples that he did yourself? He has quit on every team he’s played for at one time or another and “plays when he wants to play”, his words.
In Oakland, he didn’t just merely quit on a play, or 2 seconds left in a quarter, etc. He quit on a SEASON.
Yeah, hall of fame material right there boy. Last time I looked, there were criminals in the HOF, but no QUITTERS.
On a tangent, I’m surprised SportingNews.com doesn’t make you turn off comments here so people have to register with them to call you an idiot.
in fairness to Randy, his first two touchdowns as a raider were over turned by offensive pass interference calls. The only times he has ever had TD’s over turned. Call it korea or whatever, I call it unfair bias by the refs when it comes to the raiders.
For the record same goes last season for Louis Murphys first TD on opening night on Monday night football against the chargers Refs sucks!
@EverybodyGOTAids
“Michael Irvin wasn’t a quarter of the receiver”. Oh really? More yards per game than Owens and just a couple of yards behind Moss. Never got kicked off one team, much less four. Oh yeah, three rings. 16 career Super Bowl receptions with 12 first downs plus 2 TDs.
Some of you guys are blinded by your Moss hate and you don’t know what your talking about. Moss is a quitter?? Randy Moss had Jerry Rice- type numbers when he was in Minnesota. Randall Cunningham, who came out of retirement to play again, had his best year ever with Moss, so did Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper. In his last year with Minnesota, Moss was on a record-breaking pace before he tore his quad mid-way through the season. Moss played a couple of games hurt, and then sat for 3 games, came back and played well, but then he got hurt again late in the season. Remember the famous “Moss Moon” playoff game against the Packers, Moss took over in that game and scored 2 TD’s on one leg. He could barely run, yet he still played through it.
Sure, he struggled in Oakland in 2006, but in his first year there, before he got injured, he was having a good year with Kerry Collins. Just like in Minnesota in his last year, Moss played through his injuries, but was never quite the same that year. Look at his 2005 numbers, they are almost identical to his numbers in 2008 when he played in New England with Matt Cassel, a guy who didn’t play since high school. Everyone saw what happened once Moss got to play with a GREAT QB.
And Moss didn’t quit in New England. He had a bad game in Carolina and all of the Moss haters were quick to say that he quit. Merril Hoge, a long time Moss critic, came to Randy’s defense and explained why Moss didn’t quit that game. Moss is an easy target, as is Owens, but for people to say these receivers aren’t Hall of Fame worthy are just delusional and in some cases, cynical and bitter.
And when comparing Moss to Owens, rememeber this: Terrell Owens came into the league 2 years before Moss, so when you compare their numbers, you have to factor that in there.. And Moss still has more TD catches than Owens. Owens is great, but Moss is and always has been a better receiver than Owens.
I really hope that someday they change the Hall of Fame voting process because it’s flawed.
BenRapistBerger – You beat me to the punch.
TO EVERYONE ELSE:
This is Florio being Florio. He has nothing REAL to write about, so he has the mindset of “hey – why don’t I MAKE UP something to stir up the bees nest so I can get hits on this site.”
You truly are pathetic Florio. Why don’t you get a real job? Then again, a mindless wonder like you would most likely have problems flipping burgers….
Ray Guy says:
June 2, 2010 6:55 PM
“moswesley says: June 2, 2010 5:03 PM
Please stop with the Randy quit on his team baloney.”
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So how can you call it “baloney”, and then go on and list 3 quitting examples that he did yourself? He has quit on every team he’s played for at one time or another and “plays when he wants to play”, his words.
In Oakland, he didn’t just merely quit on a play, or 2 seconds left in a quarter, etc. He quit on a SEASON.
Yeah, hall of fame material right there boy. Last time I looked, there were criminals in the HOF, but no QUITTERS.
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I’m so sick of people, the media included, taking the “I play when I want to play” quote out of context. Moss was responding to questions about Cris Carter’s affect on Moss, basically crediting Moss’ success to Carter. Moss was saying he motivates himself and that he doesn’t play because Carter gets him to. Know your freakin’ facts!
The problem for Randy is he speaks without a filter and frequently gets burned. What he says and what he means don’t always line up, but he simply doesn’t care enough to explain.
Ron does a great job in his post handling the quitting issue. Two other things to note however: During Moss’s first year with Oakland, multiple media members reported the Raiders’ training camp was run lower than a high school level. The entire organization was starting to look like a joke and Moss was affected by it. Also, those who think Moss dogs it during plays not designed for him, need to go back and watch some of his games with the Vikings. He scored a touchdown against Dallas & New Orleans in which he didn’t even move off the line of scrimage before catching the pass. He simply stood up straight, hands down by his side, turned towards the QB, grabbed the pass and exploded straight up the field and past multiple defenders for the TD. That was the route. Now if he does that same route, thus holding 2-3 defenders on his side of the field while the play goes to the opposite side it can look like he’s dogging it. Yet those 2-3 defenders are now a long ways away from the ball and that route has done its job.
As for the TO & Moss comparisons, I’ve seen games where TO was covered by a LB on a pass play and others where he’s romed free (probably on a busted coverag) or beaten single coverage. Moss is almost always double covered at the very least and never covered with just a LB, plus defenses always know where he’s lining up. In fact, I never heard a team say they game planned for TO (they could have, I just haven’t heard it) but you always heard it about Moss.
Moss – 1st ballott HOF if ever there was one. Just go back and watch his games.
@ Ray Guy
Now YOU should be in the HOF! Best punter in NFL history. Someone in these posts mentioned that the voters are idiots.
I have heard some of these voters say that they would never vote a punter, kicker or special teamer into the HOF. Why? Aren’t we told that special teams is a third of the game?
Now, I don’t want every kicker, punter and special teamer in the HOF, but having only Jan Stenerud as the only K/P/ST in the HOF is a joke.
Ray Guy should be in. Vinatieri should be in when he’s eligible. I don’t know who the all time PR or KR is, but why not look at these guys for what they do?
Oh, and Moss and T.O. should be in without a doubt. And, I can’t stand T.O.
While we’re talking about WRs for the HOF, shout out for Stanley Morgan too. Better numbers than Swann and Stallworth. Look at where he stood when he retired. He had 10000+ yards, 500+ receptions, 70+ TDs, 19.2 yards/rec. Greatr numbers for the era he played in. Yes, they pale in comparison to guys today, but when he was done, he ranked 5th in rec yards, 14th in rec TDs, 14th in yards from scrimmage including RBs, and had the 2nd highest yards/catch average among the top 50 in rec yards. He ranked in the top 15 all time when he retired.
Quick comparison with guys in the HOF:
Morgan: 557 rec, 10716 yards, 19.2 yds/rec, 72 TDs in 14 years and 4 Pro Bowls
Swann: 336 rec, 5462 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 51 TDs in 9 years with 3 Pro Bowls
Swann’s 14 year projection: 518 rec, 8497 yds, 16.1 yds/rec, 79 TDs with 5 Pro Bowls
Stallworth: 537 rec, 8723 yards, 16.2 yds/rec, 63 TDs in 14 years with 3 Pro Bowls
Warfield: 427 rec, 8565 yards, 20.1 yds/rec, 85 TDs in 13 years with 8 Pro Bowls
Biletnikoff: 589 rec, 8974 yards, 15.2 yards/rec, 76 TDs in 14 years with 6 Pro Bowls
Morgan never won a ring although one was stolen from him and given to Biletnikoff. But, all of these guys were on running teams. Swann got in because of his playoff performances. Shoot, then put Deion Branch in!
Stanley Morgan should be in the HOF!
I suppose since Stanley Morgan should be in then Vinny Testaverde should be a shoo in as well? The best example you could come up with is Stanley Morgan? What about Henry Ellard, Irving Fryar, Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, heck, just let everyone in, why bother with a vote?
These two individuals have had very few run-ins with the law. Randy for a good time with (adult) hookers on a boat (which I have no problem with) and Owens a suspected overdose.
Neither one of these are deal breakers.
The problem is that they are autonomous black men who will not act, speak or cowtow to anyone. So get over it. If you want talent, go get it. If not leave it alone.
Rest assured you will not get a “Clarence Thomas” with either one of them.
Owens caused every team (except Buffalo) more problems than he was worth.
He left behind wrecked programs at every stop, until the Bills. A guy like that should certainly go to the Hall of Fame, and buy a ticket to see real football players.