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A case for Vincent Jackson and Logan Mankins showing up to work

The Chargers and Patriots have discussed a deal for Vincent Jackson, but multiple reports indicate that a deal is unlikely.  Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune says including Logan Mankins in a possible swap is even more unlikely, because the Chargers don’t need help at guard.

That doesn’t mean both players will sit out the season.  In New England, there’s been a general sense that Mankins could eventually come to work.  After all, he was reportedly close to a big contract extension at one point.  His problems with the Patriots almost seem more personal than financial at this stage.

Vincent Jackson appears more steadfast in his holdout, but Jason La Canfora makes this case on NFL.com that there is a “strong probability” both players will show up by Week Ten.

“If they sit out the entire season, there is still a very, very strong
chance they end up right back where they are — restricted free agents,”
one CBA “expert” told La Canfora.

There are clauses in the current CBA that is reportedly worrying the union when it comes to Jackson and Mankins.  They may not want to risk winding up in the same position next year.

It’s hard to predict what language will be in the next CBA, and whether it would allow Jackson and Mankins to be free agents in 2011.  We’re in uncharted territory.

“Even if we tried to challenge that language through a grievance or a
settlement, there’s no guarantee we would win,” a union source told NFL.com.
“There is no way to guarantee in any instance they would get the
language they want.”

Thus far, the action on the field isn’t helping Jackson and Mankins’ leverage.  Philip Rivers is on pace to break Dan Marino’s single season passing record.  The Patriots have scored the most points in the league.

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50 Responses to “A case for Vincent Jackson and Logan Mankins showing up to work”
  1. kuze says: Oct 8, 2010 9:45 AM

    Kyle Orton changed his name to Philip Rivers?

  2. Steve W. says: Oct 8, 2010 9:50 AM

    Thus far, the action on the field isn’t helping Jackson and Mankins’ leverage.
    _____________________________
    I don’t know that I’d go that far, at least in Jackson’s case. The Chargers are 2-2 right now, with both losses coming with the Chargers unable to score in the red zone on the last drive. Both losses also include missed opportunities by Chargers receivers to make plays. Having said that, there’s still no way AJ changes his stance.
    These guys might end up needing to show up to make sure they don’t get stuck in the same position, but there’s nothing that says they have to show up and really work. If I were Jackson, I’d show up, take the money, and cause as many problems in the locker room as possible in an effort to get cut. It might be highly unprofessional, but no more so than the GM passing up on real draft value for a player he won’t keep and who won’t play simply to keep him in the situation he’s in.

  3. Richm2257 says: Oct 8, 2010 9:51 AM

    “The Patriots have scored the most points in the league.”
    ————————————————-
    This is the first time I’ve heard this anywhere…. how is it that the writers and talk radio have managed to not mention this fact before?????

  4. Tha Winkla says: Oct 8, 2010 9:52 AM

    The Patriots have scored the most oints in the league? How many of thos points were offensive?

  5. dave says: Oct 8, 2010 9:58 AM

    orton’s also on pace to break marino’s record, but with orton it’s due to a total lack of running game, as the chargers have rushed for 300+ more yards than denver, yet rivers is less than 100 yards behind orton, in 34 less attempts
    i would say the likelihood of someone breaking that record would be more with orton due to denver’s horrible run game, and that’s not a bad thing for denver really, because it does seem like they won’t be too hurt by getting into shootouts, they’ve got a real nice passing attack (like sd does)

  6. steelerer says: Oct 8, 2010 9:59 AM

    That would mean that the new CBA would have to require 6 years of service for a player to be a UFA. i doubt that because if the owners want to in stall a rookie cap then i doubt the union will be onboard 2 years being added for a player to become a UFA. The whole point to a rookie cap is so the veterans can get a little extra money, whats the point if it takes an extra 2 years for players to hit the open market.

  7. Austskate says: Oct 8, 2010 10:00 AM

    Orton and Manning must be too, since Rivers is 3rd in the league in passing right now.

  8. BadBoyBenny says: Oct 8, 2010 10:00 AM

    If there is no football next year what happens to them? Is there anything in the current CBA about how a lockout affects the years of service?

  9. sammieboy says: Oct 8, 2010 10:01 AM

    I can see a 3 way trade. Eagles need a Guard and Mankins would be a huge addition over there. So, Eagles should give a 2nd and Patriots a 3rd round to Chargers and Eagles get Mankins while Pats get Jackson.

  10. HarrisonHits says: Oct 8, 2010 10:04 AM

    Unless there’s an injury on the O-line the Pats can do without Mankins just fine. Scarnecchia is the best O-line coach in the league and whoever he has performs very well.

  11. The Ghost of Terry Bradshaw says: Oct 8, 2010 10:05 AM

    Both Orton and Rivers on on pace to break the record.

  12. urban says: Oct 8, 2010 10:07 AM

    They have to show up by week 7 not 10 since they have to sit 3 games before after they report. Showing up week 10 and sitting 3 games will not get them enough games to claim a year of service. Expert reporters on the NFL should know this it’s been reported enough times.

  13. Lucky5927 says: Oct 8, 2010 10:09 AM

    No, he is saying that River’s isn’t missing Jackson in the stat column (Thats what happens when the special teams and defense give up big plays and the QB has to play catch up the whole game). Just the WIN Column. But Orton has the most passing yards in the league at this point, so I guess it means that Orton and Manning are also on pace to break the record if Rivers is.
    Also, the Chargers don’t NEED help at guard, but for the Chargers to insinuate (Via Greggy boy)that one of the best guards in the game wouldn’t boost that line is absurd. That line becomes better instantly. Especially, with a former starter as a swing lineman

  14. MP2 says: Oct 8, 2010 10:10 AM

    Technically, Orton, Peyton Manning AND Philip Rivers are all on pace to break Marino’s passing record – so that comment in the article is accurate.

  15. p-dubs_uw says: Oct 8, 2010 10:11 AM

    Did you bother to read the article regarding Dan Marino’s record?

  16. metaleffect85 says: Oct 8, 2010 10:12 AM

    Hate to burst your bubble kuze, but Rivers is also on pace

  17. RIP__21 says: Oct 8, 2010 10:24 AM

    Kuze–Orton, Manning, and Rivers are all on pace to break Marinos record.

  18. PirateFreedom says: Oct 8, 2010 10:27 AM

    1. kuze says: October 8, 2010 9:45 AM
    Kyle Orton changed his name to Philip Rivers?
    Rivers is on a pace to break it
    Orton is on a pace to obliterate it

  19. jecates says: Oct 8, 2010 10:29 AM

    Manning, Orton, and Rivers are all three on target to break Marino’s record, according to the linked article. The irony of a comment implying that Rosenthal didn’t read the linked article, by a commenter that didn’t read the linked article.

  20. Batman says: Oct 8, 2010 10:30 AM

    Kuze…no shit right? I mean Rivers COULD be on pace..but he isnt even 2nd in passing yards…Manning is. Rivers could be on pace to break Marionos record…and if he does,..that may put his season third of all time…next to Orton and Manning of 2010

  21. Kiss Bills Rings says: Oct 8, 2010 10:32 AM

    F-Logan Mankins……DOUCHE

  22. nfl says: Oct 8, 2010 10:33 AM

    Here’s a cae for them to show up: they play football and get paid quite well to do it. Show up and see what happens.. especially in VJ’s case where he already has 2 strikes on the conduct side.

  23. Iron Wolf says: Oct 8, 2010 10:39 AM

    Yep Harrison, Mankins misplayed this one. Very good player, but not $6mm better than Connolly.

  24. PFTiswhatitis says: Oct 8, 2010 10:42 AM

    @sammieboy: that three way trade sounds great actually except that Jackson cant play for another 3 weeks and these complex deals are super hard to get accomplished.

  25. RIP__21 says: Oct 8, 2010 10:44 AM

    The Lord of No Rings just need to get his head out of his ass and get a deal done. They want tier one compentstation for Jackson but they dont offer him a tier one contract.

  26. ChargerDillon says: Oct 8, 2010 10:49 AM

    No Kyle Orton didn’t change his name, but if you had to bet on 1 or the other to do it, id put my money on Rivers any day of the week
    Orton is overrated at best, which means he’s still just slightly better than Jay Cutler

  27. superius says: Oct 8, 2010 10:55 AM

    They have to show up by week 7 not 10 since they have to sit 3 games before after they report. Showing up week 10 and sitting 3 games will not get them enough games to claim a year of service. Expert reporters on the NFL should know this it’s been reported enough times.
    ————–
    Don’t think Mankins has been suspended by the Patriots like Jackson has, so he wouldn’t need to show up by week 7.

  28. Grape_Ape says: Oct 8, 2010 10:58 AM

    Tha Winkla says:
    October 8, 2010 9:52 AM
    The Patriots have scored the most oints in the league? How many of thos points were offensive?
    —————–
    They have scored 131 points, 82 by the offense.
    That’s a little over 20 points per game, not to bad.

  29. Grape_Ape says: Oct 8, 2010 10:59 AM

    Tha Winkla says:
    October 8, 2010 9:52 AM
    The Patriots have scored the most oints in the league? How many of thos points were offensive?
    —————–
    They have scored 131 points, 82 by the offense.
    That’s a little over 20 points per game, not to bad.

  30. mr_snrub says: Oct 8, 2010 11:02 AM

    All they have to go on right now is the old CBA – the new one can include whatever new terms they want.
    If free agency still takes 4 accrued seasons the NFL is going to have a difficult time explaining why someone like Vincent Jackson or Mankins (assuming they don’t report) isn’t a free agent despite 5 accrued seasons and someone with 4 is.
    So right now, yes, the union would likely fail if it challenged it, but in working out a new CBA the union need only ask for something like a Mankins/Jackson Exception clause, which probably would be accepted by ownership given it would only affect 2 teams and the it wouldn’t be something worth haggling over after having been haggling for like 27 months.

  31. metaleffect85 says: Oct 8, 2010 11:03 AM

    ChargerDillion – lets swap Brandon Lloyd for Anontio Gates, take away Rivers fail-safe option and you wont be saying Orton is overrated.

  32. 8man says: Oct 8, 2010 11:07 AM

    Tha Winkla says:
    October 8, 2010 9:52 AM
    The Patriots have scored the most oints in the league? How many of thos points were offensive?
    ————————————————
    That’s why it was phrased as the “Patriots” not the “Patriots offense”. Technically field goals and extra points are special teams as well, so only touchdowns would count.
    But, yeah, don’t look at their total points scored and think it’s all offense. That being said, when your defense or special teams score, your offense doesn’t get off the bench and the defense goes right back onto the field. Hard to score on offense if you don’t touch the ball.
    The Chargers are expecting way too much for Jackson. Hope they want to keep him, because that is where he is staying.

  33. Steeler fans are tools says: Oct 8, 2010 11:14 AM

    Don’t understand how Jackson can even bother to hold out! Doesn’t he have a couple DUI’s?? It was enough to warrant a suspension. I understand he’s a good WR, but c’mon dude.

  34. sluggrad says: Oct 8, 2010 11:38 AM

    I wonder if Mankins has learned anything from the Moss trade? Why not just show up, be a jerk and only play hard occasionally, then the Pats will dump you.

  35. exactlyright21 says: Oct 8, 2010 12:18 PM

    Flip floppin’ Pats fans.. Gotta love it

  36. HarrisonHits says: Oct 8, 2010 12:20 PM

    @sluggrad,
    What possibly makes you think the Pats will allow one of their own drafted players who they developed to be accommodated in the same way that Moss was ? Especially since Mankins is coming off his rookie contract. Not the same situation by any means.

  37. chipwade says: Oct 8, 2010 12:37 PM

    I wonder what the odds are of Seattle trading Deion Branch to the Pats for the Brandon Merriwether, the 1st round draft pick the Seahawks gave up to get Branch. Isn’t he in the dog house in NE?
    Former first round picks on the Hawks that didn’t pan out for their old teams:
    Mike Williams
    Marshawn Lynch
    Kentwan Balmer
    Junior Siavii (36th pick – 2004)

  38. BenRapistberger says: Oct 8, 2010 12:39 PM

    Read the article he linked before jumping down his throat. In the article, he mentions all 3 are on pace to break it. It applied to this article because one of the guys on pace to break it is doing so without his #1 receiver, who is the target of half of this story.
    Wake up people.

  39. Empire Jones says: Oct 8, 2010 12:46 PM

    We are all such geniuses, yet there isn’t ONE GM in the entire NFL that would take Kyle Orton over Philip Rivers.
    Besides the wopoint wasn’t that Rivers was theonly one on pace, it was to simply point out that even WITHOUT Jackson Rivers is having a fine year.
    9 TDs and 4 picks, three were tipped picks, two by Gates. The 4th pick wa a last-play desperation throw where Rivers admits to throwing the ball in double coverage to try and get a PI call.

  40. Filbertkiwi71 says: Oct 8, 2010 1:00 PM

    Steve W. said:” If I were Jackson, I’d show up, take the money, and cause as many problems in the locker room as possible in an effort to get cut. It might be highly unprofessional, but no more so than the GM passing up on real draft value for a player he won’t keep and who won’t play simply to keep him in the situation he’s in.”
    ==+
    That would be the dumbest thing VJ could do. You don’t think that any new potential team is going to look at that and think twice about bringing VJ in?
    You do understand that most likely one of the primary reasons VJ is not finding a home with another team is because of his off the field issues, right? So, you would compound that problem by having him come back to a team and being a disruptive force?
    Try bringing that track record to a new team and try signing a long term deal. It won’t happen.
    Who said AJ was passing up real value for VJ? How do you define real value? At a minimum, the Chargers will probably get a 3rd round comp pick for VJ if he just walks. Getting a second rounder only via trade is ridiculous when you compare it to what the Broncos got for Marshall.

  41. Grape_Ape says: Oct 8, 2010 1:19 PM

    exactlyright21 says:
    October 8, 2010 12:18 PM
    Flip floppin’ Pats fans.. Gotta love it
    ———-
    Yeah, like they are different from any other fans of any other sports teams.

  42. cause you are the same says: Oct 8, 2010 1:22 PM

    # steelerer says: October 8, 2010 9:59 AM
    That would mean that the new CBA would have to require 6 years of service for a player to be a UFA. i doubt that because if the owners want to in stall a rookie cap then i doubt the union will be onboard 2 years being added for a player to become a UFA. The whole point to a rookie cap is so the veterans can get a little extra money, whats the point if it takes an extra 2 years for players to hit the open market.
    ————————————————
    Here’s another way to look at it:
    There is a salary floor…a minimum that each team MUST spend on their players. Let’s say that you have the #1 pick, but instead of having to drop $60 mil on a rook….you have to spend that on vets.
    There would be mechanisms in there to make sure that the $$$ goes to the guys who deserve it.

  43. LightningLucci says: Oct 8, 2010 1:33 PM

    @snrub:
    “If free agency still takes 4 accrued seasons the NFL is going to have a difficult time explaining why someone like Vincent Jackson or Mankins (assuming they don’t report) isn’t a free agent despite 5 accrued seasons and someone with 4 is.”
    That’s the one half of the problem. The other half is that there is a conflicting rule in the CBA.
    From the players’ perspectives, they did their four years, they should be free.
    However, from the teams’ perspectives, the CBA rules said they were getting those players for a 5th year and they planned accordingly. Also, there is the OTHER CBA rule that says that a RFA who does not report stays a RFA the following year.
    So how do we resolve?
    1. The player can report this year and guarantee he is a UFA in 2011. Team would likely get 2012 comp pick.
    2. Player does note report and is UFA in 2011. Fairer to player, not so much to team. Team would likely get 2012 comp pick.
    3. Player does not report and is RFA in 2011. Fairer to team, not so much to player.
    4. No report. Arbitration in 2011. Player goes free. Team gets some extra compensation, like say an additional 2012 comp pick?
    The safest move for the player is to buy some injury insurance and show up this year. The teams have more reason to stand pat since they win with 3 of those 4 above. And I’m sure I’m completely wrong and there are more possibilities. Who knows what will happen?
    If I were the player, I would want more control over my destiny. I could do that by showing up. Of course, there still might be that pesky franchise tag!

  44. PFTalktothehand says: Oct 8, 2010 2:04 PM

    @RIP_21…
    The Lord of No Rings just need to get his head out of his ass and get a deal done. They want tier one compentstation for Jackson but they dont offer him a tier one contract.
    Really?? This again. 31 NFL teams had a chance to offer VJ tier one compensation during the off season. None did. Not one offered anything over 1 year and the same amount as the tender. Once the Vikings saw their receivers go down they upped the offer. But not nearly enough.

  45. clintcooper says: Oct 8, 2010 2:18 PM

    Philip Rivers is on pace to break Dan Marino’s record.
    Kyle Orton is on pace to obliterate it.

  46. Steve W. says: Oct 8, 2010 2:54 PM

    # steelerer says: October 8, 2010 9:59 AM
    That would mean that the new CBA would have to require 6 years of service for a player to be a UFA. i doubt that because if the owners want to in stall a rookie cap then i doubt the union will be onboard 2 years being added for a player to become a UFA. The whole point to a rookie cap is so the veterans can get a little extra money, whats the point if it takes an extra 2 years for players to hit the open market.
    ______________________________
    No it wouldn’t. There is language in the current cba that would keep a restricted free agent who sits out the season a restricted free agent. Now, that clause probably assumed that the player in question wouldn’t have gained the additional accrued year they needed. While that may have been the assumption behind the clause, that’s not the way the clause is worded. No mention of having enough accrued years exists in the clause, meaning that even though both players would have enough accrued years when the requirements for unrestricted free agency return to normal, these two could still be left in limbo if the clause isn’t changed in the new cba to state that a player with sufficient accrued years would not be subject to the same penalties.
    Think of it like the second amendment to the Constitution, which reads “A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Now, the initial intent of the amendment may have been to insure that there would be a well armed militia available to deal with problems that arise, but that doesn’t change the fact that the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed. The first part is simply the initial reasoning behind the decision, whereas the second part is the decision itself. The amendment doesn’t state that the necessity of a militia is a prerequisite for the right to remain in effect. Just because a well regulated milita is no longer needed doesn’t mean the right disappears. The only way to remove the right would be to alter the constitution. The same may be true here.

  47. JakeDSnake says: Oct 8, 2010 2:58 PM

    I have been given TWO sets of Isotoner gloves by my linemen this year, so I’m on pace to break Marino’s record as well.

  48. Steve W. says: Oct 8, 2010 3:13 PM

    # Steeler fans are tools says: October 8, 2010 11:14 AM
    Don’t understand how Jackson can even bother to hold out! Doesn’t he have a couple DUI’s?? It was enough to warrant a suspension. I understand he’s a good WR, but c’mon dude.
    ___________________________________
    With all due respect, Jared Allen was in the same situation when the Vikings traded for him. That’s turned out well so far. In no way am I defending Jackson’s reckless actions when he decided to drink and drive. Let’s not talk about him like he’s some junkie or violent felon, however. Aside from the DUIs, he hadn’t been a problem for the Chargers until they decided to use the altered rules of the uncapped year to try and make him play for a huge discount. Say what you want, but this is still America. As far as I know, we still have the right to say no to any offer we feel is beneath us…whether we’re right or not.
    Why is it that so many people want to blame Jackson for being offended by the way the organization has treated him, but no one questions the fairness of restricted free agency itself? Is everyone really that jealous over how much these players make? Think about it, the man was drafted out of college, so he had no say in what team he could play for. He played out that five year contract, never holding out or throwing a public tantrum over the team’s failure to even discuss an extension. Then, after he served his time and was ready for his big payday, the chargers give him nothing more than a restricted franchise tender offer (when he would have been an unrestricted free agent had the owners not opted out of the cba).
    So, after having no say in where he could play coming out of college and for the five years that followed, he now has no say in where he can play again through no fault of his own. So, that’s six years in the league with little control over his own career (avg. career length is less than 4 years I believe). That sounds a bit like indentured servitude. Sure, it pays remarkably well, but it would be nice to have some say over your own career after 5 years in the league.

  49. Steve W. says: Oct 8, 2010 3:28 PM

    @Filbertkiwi71
    First of all, yes I realize that could cause problems for him. I simply meant I understand his frustration and would be tempted to do it simply out of spite. Doesn’t mean it would be a good idea. Then again, everyone in the league knows what’s going on, and odds are there’s enough desperate teams out there that at least one would figure if they treat him well all will be good. Look at how much money the Redskins threw at Haynesworth, and it’s not like he had a flawless record before the deal.
    The bit about passing up real value I certainly stand behind however. If Jackson walks away as a free agent, the most the Chargers get is a compensatory pick at the tail end of the 3rd round in the 2012 draft. The Vikings offered a 2nd round pick in the 2011 draft and a conditional pick in the 2012 draft. I think the conditional pick was most likely a 4th round pick, but if the proper conditions were met, might be a 3rd round pick.
    So, the conditional pick itself is either the same or close to what they’ll get as a compensatory pick, and they’d get a 2nd round pick the year before that. In the draft pick trade formula, getting a pick a year early normally costs you a full round. In other words, if you want a 2nd round pick this year, you have to offer up a first found pick the following year. So, if you want to really see the value of what the Chargers rejected, you need to talk about the 2nd round pick in terms of 2012 value since that’s the year they’ll actually get their compensatory pick. So, the 2011 2nd round pick equals a 2012 1st round pick. That means that AJ chose to keep a player he doesn’t want to keep and who doesn’t want to play for him and get a pick at the tail end of the 3rd round, and to do so he gave up the equivalent of a 1st round pick that same year and a pick that could be 3rd or 4th round pick. So, that’s pretty much walking away from a 1st round draft pick that would cost you nothing to get. I call that walking away from real value.

  50. Steve W. says: Oct 8, 2010 3:35 PM

    Really?? This again. 31 NFL teams had a chance to offer VJ tier one compensation during the off season. None did. Not one offered anything over 1 year and the same amount as the tender. Once the Vikings saw their receivers go down they upped the offer. But not nearly enough.
    —————————————-
    Correction, not one team was willing to offer both Tier one compensation and the 1st and 3rd round pick that VJ was tendered at. There’s a difference. As far as I’m concerned, a 2nd in 2011 and a 3rd or 4th in 2012 is a lot better of a deal than a pick tacked on to the bottom of the 3rd in 2012. Since the Chargers have no intention of signing VJ to an extension, that’s all they get. I simply don’t understand passing up a 2nd round pick that pretty much costs you nothing in this case. But that’s just me I guess.

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