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St. Paul mayor thinks local burden for new stadium is unfair

Vikings Stadium Football AP

Previously, St. Paul mayor Chris Coleman had said nothing about the deal that would put the new Vikings stadium in his county — and that would subject his city to a one-half percent sales tax aimed at covering the county’s portion of the total financial package.  His silence spoke volumes.

Now, Coleman has said something other than nothing, and he apparently wants nothing to do with a proposal that imposes a significant burden on the county that has the privilege of hosting the building in which the Vikings’ home games will be played.  Thou he has yet to take an official position, he called the imposition of a sales tax by Ramsey County an “unfair burden,” according to Rochelle Olson of the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

“People in Virginia [Minnesota] watch the Vikings on TV.  People in Mankato are eating buffalo wings and drinking beer on Sunday [and watching the games],” Coleman said.

Still, Coleman favors the concept of building a stadium.  “I start with the premise the Vikings are an important asset.  We’ve got to find a way to keep them here,” Coleman said.

Coleman said he won’t take an official position on the proposal until he has more time to study it.  “I need to know those numbers,” Coleman said.  “What are they asking the residents and the people shopping in St. Paul to pay?  What are the benefits of the Arden Hills site to St. Paul? . . .  The fact that it’s not in Minneapolis is not a reason to support something in Ramsey County.”

Coleman prefers a statewide one-cent or two-cent tax on beer and liquor sales to fund the project.

Though Coleman has no direct power over the question of whether the Legislature will or won’t pass a bill imposing the sales tax in Ramsey County, Coleman’s position would give extra ammunition to the opponents of the move, and possibly nudge some fence-sitters toward not supporting the project.

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70 Responses to “St. Paul mayor thinks local burden for new stadium is unfair”
  1. itsallaboutmee says: May 12, 2011 3:03 PM

    Coleman prefers a statewide one-cent or two-cent tax on beer and liquor sales to fund the project.

    ===================

    Is that on the assumption that most folks who watch football sit around and get drunk while the game is on?

    If so…WELL PLAYED SIR!

  2. felcus says: May 12, 2011 3:04 PM

    Tax the whole state, not just one county. Done deal.

  3. jerichotfx says: May 12, 2011 3:04 PM

    There is no way a stadium deal of this magnitude will ever please 100% of the officials & public. Some toes will need to be stepped on to get this done. I think the Ramsey County residents can deal with paying an extra few cents everytime they visit McGoverns or Rosedale Center. GET. IT. DONE.

  4. contra74 says: May 12, 2011 3:05 PM

    Yea well LIFE is unfair. Just SHUT UP and LET IT HAPPEN!

  5. Jonathan says: May 12, 2011 3:10 PM

    The State of Minnesota needs to get a bigger commitment out of Zygi Wilf. Its disingenuous at best for the NFL to ask for billions to be taken off the top of revenues under the guise of stadium construction. 10 seconds later they are asking tax payers to contribute as well. This process is flawed at best and Minnesotans should not take it. Tell Zygi to step out!

  6. cosanostra71 says: May 12, 2011 3:13 PM

    another roadblock that makes the LA Vikings more likely… I’m more than ok with this.

  7. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 3:13 PM

    Coleman prefers a statewide one-cent or two-cent tax on beer and liquor sales to fund the project.
    ________________

    If they did that in Wisconsin, we could end world poverty.

  8. realitypolice says: May 12, 2011 3:14 PM

    Legalize, regulate and tax sports gambling.

    You’d make enough money to build a stadium in every county in Minnesota and the Vikings could rotate their home games.

  9. redskinspike says: May 12, 2011 3:15 PM

    I don’t get why these people are so against the stadium being built in their county. Do they not understand that for at least 8 Sundays a year there will be an influx of people going to their county, which would be a massive lift to their local economy? People will go to their bars, gas stations, hotels, grocery stores, etc. Suck it up, the pros far outweigh the cons, in my opinion.

  10. nflfan101 says: May 12, 2011 3:15 PM

    They need to sell PSLs and leave the taxpayers alone.

    They have something like 50,000 season ticket holders who could buy PSLs. Stadium problem solved and the Vikings would be worth more $$$ because they would own the stadium.

    The government – local, state, or federal – is not the solution, but the problem. Sell PSLs.

  11. getyourpopcorn says: May 12, 2011 3:16 PM

    Are all these people in Minnesota stupid?

    Don’t they realize they are going to lose their Vikings?

  12. 28purple4mvp says: May 12, 2011 3:22 PM

    1/2 cent tax burden on people who shop in st.paul-cry me a river-was not such a burden when the tax me for the walker art center that i will never go to-get it done-it will cost us more in the long run-GET IT DONE

  13. carlgerbschmidt says: May 12, 2011 3:24 PM

    Even the mayor of the 2nd largest city in the state doesn’t want the vikes. Of course, who can blame him.

  14. pdxvikesfan says: May 12, 2011 3:26 PM

    If Mayor wants the entire State to pay a sales tax perhaps he will be kind enough to send the revenue generated for his county from the stadium to the rest of the State as well.

  15. ffootballontwitter says: May 12, 2011 3:28 PM

    “…Coleman prefers a statewide one-cent or two-cent tax on beer and liquor sales to fund the project.”

    In politicalspeak, that’s called kicking the can down the road. It has as much of a chance as a snowstorm in Hell. In these tough economic times, if the region that hosts the team is unable to muster the political support, there’s no way you’re going to get the state to step in.

  16. fallcoon says: May 12, 2011 3:38 PM

    What’s up with you Notherners. First the Lakers then the Timberwolves. Next, it’s the Norhtstars
    then the Wild. It’s alot cheaper just to keep the team you have then to add one later. Get er done!

  17. huskerguy says: May 12, 2011 3:39 PM

    So basically he wants to reap all the rewards but not bear any burdens???

    No wonder Viking fans are so irritable.

  18. theytukrjobs says: May 12, 2011 3:40 PM

    I think Ramsey county should pay more than the rest of the state because their benefits exceed those of the rest of the state. And the rest of the state is shouldering some of the cost through the 300 million state contribution already, so I think he’s a little off base with his comments. It isn’t up to him how the State comes up with their 300 million.

    But at the same time I do believe a half cent county wide sales tax probably isn’t the best way to go about this.

  19. oumoonunit says: May 12, 2011 3:40 PM

    This is why I’m glad I live in Texas. We are more than happy to vote in sales taxes that pay for football cathedrals. You can hate on Jerry all you want, but when humans are wiped off the face of the earth, and the aliens come down to examine what remains. They will be looking at Dallas, Texas as the holy city where our church was founded.

  20. mvp43 says: May 12, 2011 3:46 PM

    Although taxing the entire state is probably the most equitable way to do it, its also the most dangerous and would sh*tcan the entire project. You would have counties on the outskirts complaining that the majority of their population don’t even attend the games etc…….then you’d be looking at referendum after referendum. There’s no time for that.

    Whenever tax hikes are an issue, particularily when a state in such a horrible economic mess as Minnesota is concerned, you have to take the path of least resistance. The Vikings need to pony up more of their own money to offset the additional tax burden.

  21. ernieernie says: May 12, 2011 3:50 PM

    I just bought a bunch of liquor Mr Coleman and there were 5 taxes listed on the receipt, sales tax, tax#2, #3 #4 #5. All special little taxes to pay for one thing or the other in the state.

    Why should anyone who lives out of the metro area and never goes to the game pay anything at all. Its not my team. I’m a Packers fan.

    No if you want the stadium in your back yard and all those taxes the players pay on their salaries,
    you pony up to the bar. Also lets just tax the ticket sales and food and beverage at the games. A user tax for the users.

  22. mrcowpatty says: May 12, 2011 3:53 PM

    I have a friend in Dallas that refers to Jerry joint as the “Death Star.” I wonder why? On another note: where the hell are the tea party people that don’t want more taxes?

  23. 28purple4mvp says: May 12, 2011 3:55 PM

    HEY CARL-GET A JOB AND A LIFE LOSER

  24. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 3:58 PM

    fallcoon says:
    May 12, 2011 3:38 PM
    What’s up with you Notherners. First the Lakers then the Timberwolves. Next, it’s the Norhtstars
    then the Wild. It’s alot cheaper just to keep the team you have then to add one later. Get er done!
    ________________

    Last I checked, the Timberwolves and Wild were still here.

  25. fargovikesfan says: May 12, 2011 3:59 PM

    Jonathan says:
    May 12, 2011 3:10 PM
    The State of Minnesota needs to get a bigger commitment out of Zygi Wilf. Its disingenuous at best for the NFL to ask for billions to be taken off the top of revenues under the guise of stadium construction. 10 seconds later they are asking tax payers to contribute as well. This process is flawed at best and Minnesotans should not take it. Tell Zygi to step out!
    ______________________

    Um, the $407 million pledged by the team is the 3rd most put up by ANY ownership group for any of the current NFL stadiums, behind only Dallas and New England. Plus the team pays for any stadium cost overruns. I’d say thats more than fair.

  26. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 4:02 PM

    redskinspike says:
    May 12, 2011 3:15 PM
    I don’t get why these people are so against the stadium being built in their county. Do they not understand that for at least 8 Sundays a year there will be an influx of people going to their county, which would be a massive lift to their local economy? People will go to their bars, gas stations, hotels, grocery stores, etc. Suck it up, the pros far outweigh the cons, in my opinion.

    huskerguy says:
    May 12, 2011 3:39 PM
    So basically he wants to reap all the rewards but not bear any burdens???
    _____________________

    The issue is that St. Paul isn’t going to reap the rewards. The stadium is in Arden Hills, which is about 10 miles north of St. Paul. Why would people go to hotels, bars, gas stations, grocer stores etc. in St. Paul if they’re attending the game in Arden Hills? I want to see this get passed but I don’t blame the St. Paul mayor for complaining that his city will bear the brunt of the burden but see few of the benefits.

  27. mvp43 says: May 12, 2011 4:09 PM

    Not really familiar with the area, but how many bars, gas stations, hotels etc are actually in Arden Hills?

    Isn’t it safe to say that St Paul will benefit greatly because it has all those establishments?

  28. carlgerbschmidt says: May 12, 2011 4:10 PM

    28purple4mvp says:
    May 12, 2011 3:55 PM
    HEY CARL-GET A JOB AND A LIFE LOSER

    ———-

    Ooooooooooh. All caps, you must be really serious…

  29. fargovikesfan says: May 12, 2011 4:26 PM

    thephantomstranger says:
    May 12, 2011 4:02 PM

    Why would people go to hotels, bars, gas stations, grocer stores etc. in St. Paul if they’re attending the game in Arden Hills?

    ______________________

    The same reason people who come from out of town now stay at the hotels, eat at the restaraunts, etc by the Mall of America or other areas when they come down for a game.

    Anyone who says that the entire metro area doesn’t see some sort of benefit by having the team in town (no matter what city its in) is either lying or stupid. let the team move and see how much they miss the revenue.

  30. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 4:27 PM

    mvp43 says:
    May 12, 2011 4:09 PM
    Not really familiar with the area, but how many bars, gas stations, hotels etc are actually in Arden Hills?

    Isn’t it safe to say that St Paul will benefit greatly because it has all those establishments?
    ______________

    Good point, mvp43. There aren’t a lot of those things in Arden Hills now, but they’ll be built around the stadium. In the meantime, I think St. Paul is far enough away that people aren’t going to automatically go there. They’re more likely to go to Minneapolis because there are more options or to Roseville because it’s closer.

  31. contra74 says: May 12, 2011 4:27 PM

    carlgerbschmidt says:
    May 12, 2011 4:10 PM
    28purple4mvp says:
    May 12, 2011 3:55 PM
    HEY CARL-GET A JOB AND A LIFE LOSER

    ———-

    Ooooooooooh. All caps, you must be really serious…
    ———–
    Why are you on a Vikings post? Just asking. No seriously, why?

  32. schmitty2 says: May 12, 2011 4:34 PM

    oumoonunit says:
    May 12, 2011 3:40 PM
    This is why I’m glad I live in Texas. We are more than happy to vote in sales taxes that pay for football cathedrals. You can hate on Jerry all you want, but when humans are wiped off the face of the earth, and the aliens come down to examine what remains. They will be looking at Dallas, Texas as the holy city where our church was founded.

    Well your “Cathredal” couldnt house all the people that paid to go to the Superbowl

  33. carlgerbschmidt says: May 12, 2011 4:40 PM

    contra74 says:
    May 12, 2011 4:27 PM
    carlgerbschmidt says:
    May 12, 2011 4:10 PM
    28purple4mvp says:
    May 12, 2011 3:55 PM
    HEY CARL-GET A JOB AND A LIFE LOSER

    ———-

    Ooooooooooh. All caps, you must be really serious…
    ———–
    Why are you on a Vikings post? Just asking. No seriously, why?
    _______________

    Why can’t I comment on a vikings post?

  34. 28purple4mvp says: May 12, 2011 4:45 PM

    carlgerbschmidt says:
    May 12, 2011 4:10 PM
    28purple4mvp says:
    May 12, 2011 3:55 PM
    HEY CARL-GET A JOB AND A LIFE LOSER

    ———-

    Ooooooooooh. All caps, you must be really serious…
    ———–
    Why are you on a Vikings post? Just asking. No seriously, why?
    _______________

    Why can’t I comment on a vikings post?

    because your input a joke just like yourself-

  35. carlgerbschmidt says: May 12, 2011 4:50 PM

    @28purple4mvp says:

    because your input a joke just like yourself-

    _____________

    What? Why don’t you a go jump lake.

  36. swede700 says: May 12, 2011 4:54 PM

    It’s about equal distance from Arden Hills to both Minneapolis and St. Paul. I see no reason why St. Paul would not benefit however, considering the sales tax revenue will still be coming into the county coffers, which last I checked are all located in St. Paul.

    Plus, people from out of state are still likely to visit St. Paul while they are in Arden Hills to visit the various sites, such as the Capitol…heck, since they’re sports fans, they might catch a Saints game in St. Paul (during the Vikings’ preseason) or a Wild game during the regular season. It’ll benefit St. Paul to have the Vikings in Arden Hills…as it is now, having the Vikings in Minneapolis now likely means less opportunity for St. Paul to benefit, considering people are less likely to leave Minneapolis for St. Paul than leaving from Arden Hills.

  37. rosloe62 says: May 12, 2011 4:55 PM

    Since the players want to be partners with the owners, I think the NFLPA should kick in some dollars for the new stadium.

  38. cliverush says: May 12, 2011 4:58 PM

    If you cannot afford to build the stadium with private funds then you do not build a stadium. Those who say the area will recoup the money because of money spent in local establishments are wrong. Remember that govt. run organizations do not generate profits. Government does not solve problems, they rearrange them, then they give high paying jobs to unqualified people to run it into the ground. Think of AMTRAK, USPS, etc. as an example. If the state needs to improve infrastructure around the facility then do so. Taxing the public for a sports team is stupid.

  39. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 4:58 PM

    fargovikesfan says:
    May 12, 2011 4:26 PM
    thephantomstranger says:
    May 12, 2011 4:02 PM

    Why would people go to hotels, bars, gas stations, grocer stores etc. in St. Paul if they’re attending the game in Arden Hills?

    ______________________

    The same reason people who come from out of town now stay at the hotels, eat at the restaraunts, etc by the Mall of America or other areas when they come down for a game.

    Anyone who says that the entire metro area doesn’t see some sort of benefit by having the team in town (no matter what city its in) is either lying or stupid. let the team move and see how much they miss the revenue.
    ______________

    That isn’t the point. The point is that St. Paul has the largest financial burden but won’t see a commensurate amount of the benefit. The sidewalks in St. Paul get rolled up at 5:00 PM on Fridays. How much extra business are they really going to see from 10 home games (and 2 playoff games! Go Christian Ponder!) played in Arden Hills?

  40. cosanostra71 says: May 12, 2011 5:22 PM

    LA Vikings w00t!

  41. goombar2 says: May 12, 2011 5:31 PM

    Since the Vikings were part of the Favre discussion, Murphy asked former defensive tackle Gilbert Brown to give his thoughts on the color purple.

    I’ve got two things about purple,” Brown said. “No. 1, grown men should never wear purple. Two, they look like 11 little Barney’s out there. Three, the Vikings are horrible.”

    Murphy then added a little jab by saying, “And also their stadium has a hole in it.”

  42. goombar2 says: May 12, 2011 5:47 PM

    Geez, already a thumbs down?!?! I didn’t say it, that’s just what a former vike thinks of their “organization” and the President of the ACME Packers.

    Just thought you guys might want to know.

  43. swede700 says: May 12, 2011 5:58 PM

    Re: cliverush

    The Metrodome has been fully paid off for the last 5 years. Every single cent from the tax created to help build it has been pure profit since then.

  44. swede700 says: May 12, 2011 6:00 PM

    swede700 says:
    May 12, 2011 5:58 PM
    Re: cliverush

    The Metrodome has been fully paid off for the last 5 years. Every single cent from the tax created to help build it has been pure profit since then.

    ———————————————–

    Actually, let me correct myself…every cent from the tax created to help build the Metrodome has been pure profit for the last –12– years. The Metrodome debt was paid off in 1998.

  45. jimmysee says: May 12, 2011 6:09 PM

    Of course Coleman’s right.

  46. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 6:12 PM

    goombar, I think the thumbs down is because your comment has nothing to do with the story. Did you forget which one you were reading, or was it just so delicious that you couldn’t wait for a relevant post?

  47. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 6:17 PM

    cliverush says:
    May 12, 2011 4:58 PM
    If you cannot afford to build the stadium with private funds then you do not build a stadium. Those who say the area will recoup the money because of money spent in local establishments are wrong. Remember that govt. run organizations do not generate profits. Government does not solve problems, they rearrange them, then they give high paying jobs to unqualified people to run it into the ground. Think of AMTRAK, USPS, etc. as an example. If the state needs to improve infrastructure around the facility then do so. Taxing the public for a sports team is stupid.
    ______________

    Everything you just said is true, but there are many non-economic reasons for having an NFL team in your state. The reality of the business is that if the Wilfs can’t get a good enough deal in Minnesota they can just go somewhere else. So do you want to pay a little to keep the team or do you want to save some money and watch the team leave? Our tax dollars are wasted on a ton of things that don’t provide an economic return on the investment. At least this time we get a pro football team out of the deal.

  48. tombradysponytail says: May 12, 2011 6:25 PM

    @thephantomstranger

    Good point, mvp43. There aren’t a lot of those things in Arden Hills now,

    _________

    What do you mean? I’m sure there’s lots of good stuff — toxic sludge has been seeping into the groundwater for the past 50 years…

    By the way, don’t drink from the bubblers when you’re there…

  49. thephantomstranger says: May 12, 2011 6:41 PM

    swede700 says:
    May 12, 2011 6:00 PM
    swede700 says:
    May 12, 2011 5:58 PM
    Re: cliverush

    The Metrodome has been fully paid off for the last 5 years. Every single cent from the tax created to help build it has been pure profit since then.

    ———————————————–

    Actually, let me correct myself…every cent from the tax created to help build the Metrodome has been pure profit for the last –12– years. The Metrodome debt was paid off in 1998.
    __________________

    Wrong! Every cent from the tax was taken from the private sector and put into the public sector. Governments don’t make a profit. They take money from the people who produce and spend it in a less efficient way.

  50. goombar2 says: May 12, 2011 8:04 PM

    I just thought viking fans might want to know what their former players thought and what another teams highly respected president was thinking about the stadium and the state of the viking franchise.

    A little different perspective can help folks understand why hard working taxpayers might not be so willing to foot the bill for this stadium. Real food for thought there.

  51. kennyrogerschicken says: May 12, 2011 8:07 PM

    thephantomstranger –

    Maybe instead of posting on this site you should run for office. Or have the Vikings hire you to educate us all on stadiums and taxes and governments.

    By the way, the biggest day for alcohol sales in Wisconsin is Sunday, as Minnesota’s liquor stores are closed, and the line of cars heading to WI for booze is miles long. I guess us Minnesotans are also drunks. It makes sense, since alcohol consumption and stupidity don’t end at the state line.

  52. thefiesty1 says: May 12, 2011 8:48 PM

    Typical local politician. He’s on the trail for a state office position. Just get Zigy to foot the bill. He can afford it.

  53. dogsweat1 says: May 12, 2011 9:00 PM

    The Burden is the Vikings.

    Release them and bring the Jags to Minneapolis.

    Start Fresh…..

  54. shiftyshellshocked says: May 12, 2011 9:11 PM

    i have never seen such a bunch of cheapskates in my life. 1/2 a % sales tax increase going to kill you guys to keep the Vikes in town? I’m telling you i’ve never seen so many fair weather fans as there are here. I have had season tickets for almost twenty years, and have been to over one hundred football games at the dome and have a blast win or loose. Also always stay at a hotel pay the parking, drink seven dollar beers because I’m a true fan of the purple and gold. You people would cry if your ice cream was to cold. skol baby!

  55. mrcowpatty says: May 12, 2011 9:15 PM

    Minnesota liquor stores are closed on Sundays?
    Before they build a new stadium they need to get their priorities straight first. Then we will talk about a new stadium!!!!

  56. jutts says: May 12, 2011 9:17 PM

    Hello Hollywood:

  57. 22deuce says: May 12, 2011 11:00 PM

    All of us in outstate MN have to pay for all kinds of crap in the twin cities that we don’t use. Bitching about something in your own county thousands of your residents will use/benefit from is weak.

  58. redskinspike says: May 12, 2011 11:11 PM

    cliverush says:
    May 12, 2011 4:58 PM
    If you cannot afford to build the stadium with private funds then you do not build a stadium. Those who say the area will recoup the money because of money spent in local establishments are wrong. Remember that govt. run organizations do not generate profits. Government does not solve problems, they rearrange them, then they give high paying jobs to unqualified people to run it into the ground. Think of AMTRAK, USPS, etc. as an example. If the state needs to improve infrastructure around the facility then do so. Taxing the public for a sports team is stupid.
    __________
    We understand that govt run organizations don’t generate profits, but think – if the Vikings get run out of town, and they move to another city – how much will the government lose then? Imagine all of the taxes lost off of items that are sold on gameday (beer, food, gas, etc. etc.) and the amount of people that stay in hotels. There’s no reason for Minnesotans (?) to go to a bar on Sunday and grab some beers, or go to the local grocery store and stock up on munchies to watch football because they have no team. I’d like to see the amount of money they’ll lose just from that in the future. I don’t mean this just from the St. Paul’s area and how much money that individual area would make back, but the entire state as a whole.

  59. melonnhead says: May 13, 2011 1:03 AM

    Well your “Cathredal” couldnt house all the people that paid to go to the Superbowl

    ——————————————————

    Blame the NFL for over-selling. Or you can blame stadium general manager Jack Hill for hiring a New York-based firm to install the additional seating only to see them walk off the job with work still to be done.

    Neither Jones nor the Cowboys own the stadium, by the way. It’s owned by the city of Arlington.

  60. stellarperformance says: May 13, 2011 9:38 AM

    Small market venues have to have local government support, ie: taxes. There are so many anti-football people out there that think too much attention is given to pro sports and not enough to public transportation, arts, schools, infrastructure, etc., that it is always a battle to get these things passed. Losing a pro franchise is like losing a Fortune 100 company. It’s hard to measure but it must be good because everybody wants them in their cities. Lose this one and you’ll never get it back. Pay the stupid tax for crying out loud and get it built. You think the Brown County residents wish they hadn’t approved their tax for Lambeau? Think again. Nobody noticed 1/2 penny per dollar for a little while.

  61. recon163 says: May 13, 2011 10:24 AM

    @ stellarperformance:

    “Small market venues have to have local government support, ie: taxes.”

    Maybe small market venues don’t need to have professional franchises. Is it a self esteem thing? BTW: Minneapolis is not a small market. 16th largest in the land.

    “There are so many anti-football people out there that think too much attention is given to pro sports and not enough to public transportation, arts, schools, infrastructure, etc., that it is always a battle to get these things passed.”

    So it is anti-football to want good roads and better schools? Yeah we wouldn’t want to spend tax money on silly things like bridges and roads when we can build a stadium for an NFL owner who, in turn, will charge us to enter the facility. Not anti-football, just clear thinking.

    “Losing a pro franchise is like losing a Fortune 100 company.”

    So do Fortune 100 companies demand the taxpayers build them a headquarters? Uh….no. Tax breaks on property? Sure. But actually increasing sales tax to build a new facility?

    What would be the reaction if a company worth $1 billion and with revenues of $300 million asked the citizens to impose an extra tax on themselves so they could build a new office structure. How would that go over?

    “It’s hard to measure but it must be good because everybody wants them in their cities.”

    Actually it is very easy to measure, has been measured, and has been shown to come up short.

    “Lose this one and you’ll never get it back.”

    Not so. Only so many places to go.

    “Pay the stupid tax for crying out loud and get it built.”

    Yes millions, pay the tax for a facility that only 70k people at a time can enjoy for 8 days. And if you are good the Vikings may consider requests for other events.

  62. thephantomstranger says: May 13, 2011 12:41 PM

    tombradysponytail says:
    May 12, 2011 6:25 PM
    @thephantomstranger

    Good point, mvp43. There aren’t a lot of those things in Arden Hills now,

    _________

    What do you mean? I’m sure there’s lots of good stuff — toxic sludge has been seeping into the groundwater for the past 50 years…

    By the way, don’t drink from the bubblers when you’re there…
    ____________________

    I thought you were from New York, Tom? Why are you using the Wisconsin term for water fountains? I think I’m beginning to understand.

  63. stellarperformance says: May 14, 2011 7:20 AM

    recon163 says: May 13, 2011 10:24 AM
    R: “BTW: Minneapolis is not a small market. 16th largest in the land.”

    S: Then why such a hard sell? There should be plenty for everyone..schools, roads, and sports venues.

    S: “There are so many anti-football people out there that think too much attention is given to pro sports and not enough to public transportation, arts, schools, infrastructure, etc., that why it is always a battle to get these things passed.”

    S: I’m all for standard-of-living improvements….across the board, especially the arts and schools, but you can’t deny it is hard to convince the masses of the benefits. People gripe about raising taxes for parks too. They gripe about everything if it’s not what THEY want..

    R: So it is anti-football to want good roads and better schools? Yeah we wouldn’t want to spend tax money on silly things like bridges and roads when we can build a stadium for an NFL owner who, in turn, will charge us to enter the facility. Not anti-football, just clear thinking.

    S: Whatever. 1/2 penny per dollar for a few years is no big deal in my book.

    S: “Losing a pro franchise is like losing a Fortune 100 company.”

    R: So do Fortune 100 companies demand the taxpayers build them a headquarters? Uh….no. Tax breaks on property? Sure. But actually increasing sales tax to build a new facility?

    S: They may as well. What’s the difference? They don’t pay anything at all… like GE.

    R: What would be the reaction if a company worth $1 billion and with revenues of $300 million asked the citizens to impose an extra tax on themselves so they could build a new office structure. How would that go over?

    S: Ummmm…how was Mall of America built? The biggest tourist draw in Minneapolis. Any infrastructure required? Any hotels benefiting nearby? I’m guessing yes.

    S: “It’s hard to measure but it must be good because everybody wants them in their cities.”

    R: Actually it is very easy to measure, has been measured, and has been shown to come up short.

    S: Well then I guess everybody should just go back to farming.

    S: “Lose this one and you’ll never get it back.”

    R: Not so. Only so many places to go.

    S: How old are you? Which turnip truck did you fall off of?

    S: “Pay the stupid tax for crying out loud and get it built.”

    R: Yes millions, pay the tax for a facility that only 70k people at a time can enjoy for 8 days. And if you are good the Vikings may consider requests for other events.

    S: And 10,000 will have a job or sell services nearby that they need as much as bread and water. It’s no-brainer. Do you actually think it is only the fans that clamor for these pro franchises, and not the elected officials and business owners? Why aren’t franchises being thrown out of every market, big and small alike? Their benefit is nothing, right? The measurements come up short, right?

    By the way….I’ll take fries with that.

  64. recon163 says: May 14, 2011 12:49 PM

    @ stellarperformance:

    “S: Then why such a hard sell? There should be plenty for everyone..schools, roads, and sports venues.”

    Why is the number 2 market such a hard sell? Why was Boston a hard sell? Because reason won out over ignorance and people realized that paying for a stadium is not an economic gain.

    “S: I’m all for standard-of-living improvements….across the board, especially the arts and schools, but you can’t deny it is hard to convince the masses of the benefits.”

    What benefits? The local community is paying $20 million dollars extra a year for the next 25 years for the right to host the Vikings. Meanwhile the local politicians have given away millions in revenue to Zigy.

    Have you seen the terms of the deal? Do you know how much revenue Zigy is being handed?

    “S: Whatever. 1/2 penny per dollar for a few years is no big deal in my book.”

    You are what Zigy is hoping for. A sea of convenient idiots who don’t question where their money is going. BTW: That ‘few’ years is 25 which matches up nicely with your IQ.

    Meanwhile in Massachusetts smarter people prevailed and guess what (Pittsburgh Tribune):
    ” . . . after years of trying to get Massachusetts taxpayers to foot the bill — even threatening to move the team to Hartford — New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft became just the third NFL team owner to build his own stadium. . . .
    Kraft borrowed $452 million. (2004 dollars) He faces $20 million in annual debt payments, but the new stadium is generating $40 million a year just from sponsorships and premium seating sales. . . .
    By conventional “wisdom” for financing sports stadiums, Kraft should be crying poor. That conventional wisdom says that teams — no matter what the sport — can’t possibly pay for a new stadium on their own and remain competitive. . . .
    On top of that, Forbes magazine valued the team at $756 million (Now at $1.2 billion) — in large part because of the new stadium . . .Massachusetts taxpayers paid $72 million for infrastructure improvements and road construction around Gillette Stadium, but the team is required to pay that money back over 25 years.”

    So the owner is paying the bill and is still making money? What a novel concept.

    “S: They may as well. What’s the difference? They don’t pay anything at all… like GE.”

    So rather than work to see it doesn’t happen, you throw up your hands and fork over your money and then get upset because others don’t do like you? What a maroon.

    “S: Ummmm…how was Mall of America built? The biggest tourist draw in Minneapolis. Any infrastructure required? Any hotels benefiting nearby? I’m guessing yes.”

    Gee let’s see…..

    MoA has annual sales of $860 million. Sales tax on that is $66 million. An economic impact of $2 billion and hosts 40 million visitors a year. Can the Vikings match those numbers?

    Just on visitors alone the Vikings need an additional 39,480,000. So if the Vikings can draw 5 million a game and have the same economic impact that the MoA has, then by all means the local community should build them a stadium.

    Since you want to appear very knowledgeable about the Vikings, what is their economic impact?

    “S: Well then I guess everybody should just go back to farming.”

    Well that is an intelligent answer. But not unexpected after reading more of your drivel.

    S: “Lose this one and you’ll never get it back. R: Not so. Only so many places to go. S: How old are you? Which turnip truck did you fall off of?”

    Ok name those cities who can offer a stadium deal and have the population to support the team. Come on, sports business expert, roll ‘em out there.

    “S: And 10,000 will have a job or sell services nearby that they need as much as bread and water. It’s no-brainer.”

    Other than the bump for construction jobs, where are those new jobs coming from? I am thinking Minneapolis as those workers simply pick up duties at the new stadium.

    “Do you actually think it is only the fans that clamor for these pro franchises, and not the elected officials and business owners?”

    Yes business owners are clamoring to have sales taxes raised in the community because all Viking fans will drive to Ramsey County so they can pay extra on what they are buying so they can support the team. Happens all the time.

    “Why aren’t franchises being thrown out of every market, big and small alike? Their benefit is nothing, right? The measurements come up short, right?”

    Because they have stadiums to pay for. They can’t throw teams out when they have a $20 million dollar payment to make.

    The benefit is something when the public isn’t paying for it. When the public is paying, the benefit is lost.

    “By the way….I’ll take fries with that.”

    You say that with such confidence. I am sure your years in the food service industry has served you well. I hope you are soon provided with the vital career building skills needed to run the McFlurry machine.

  65. stellarperformance says: May 15, 2011 9:01 AM

    recon163 says: May 14, 2011 12:49 PM
    ——————————————————————

    recon163….too slow to be recon1? No surprise. Your self-righteousness and broad-based assumptive categorizations are typical of people from Minneapolis. They see themselves more akin to Seattle or Denver instead of a mid-western mid-market….in need of every contributing venue it can capture. It’s ALL important….don’t you see? All of it. Parks, schools, roads, big business, sports venues, clean lakes, All of these things are important to a city like Minneapolis. Your answers answer nothing….it’s just a self-serving opinion. Don’t be so angry and don’t take yourself so seriously…nobody else does. The stadium is going to happen and it should. It will be one of the defining characteristics of the “big market” you are in. All of the other cut-backs and program eliminations are all going to happen anyway…you’re broke. What do you think this is…..heaven?

  66. stellarperformance says: May 15, 2011 9:30 AM

    recon 192…BTW…Robert Kraft net worth $1.6B. Ziggy net worth…$300M…near the bottom of all NFL owners. He can’t build it himself. It’s that simple. If Minnesota values this pro sports franchise (if they recognize the benefits of keeping them as you evidently do not,) then they have to pay. Think about this while sipping your coffee at Starbucks and typing furiously on your laptop. My guess is you also have a scarf strategically thrown around your neck and you wear sunglasses indoors. Am I right?

  67. recon163 says: May 15, 2011 10:03 AM

    @ stellarperformance:

    “Your self-righteousness and broad-based assumptive categorizations are typical of people from Minneapolis.”

    Hilarious. You accuse me of self-righteousness and using broad-based assumptive categorizations while using them yourself. Not that bright are you?

    Not from Minneapolis, so your broad based assumptive categorization about me is wrong.

    My belief is that is wrong to pick the pockets of people on a daily basis for 25 years to fund a stadium so an owner can reap millions.

    Speaking of assumptions. Wasn’t it you who wrote: “Pay the stupid tax for crying out loud and get it built.” You assume much for your fellow citizens.

    “Your answers answer nothing….it’s just a self-serving opinion.”

    While your opinion is what? Altruistic reasoning? Hardly…

  68. recon163 says: May 15, 2011 10:23 AM

    @ stellarperformance:

    “Robert Kraft net worth $1.6B. Ziggy net worth…$300M…near the bottom of all NFL owners. He can’t build it himself.”

    You do realize Zygi is the principle owner and the Vikings have minority owners. Zygi can build it with his partners. He heads an organization that is worth $800 million and has revenues of $221 million. The Ramsey County deal will make the team worth over $1 bill and increase revenues into the $300 mill range.

    “If Minnesota values this pro sports franchise . . .”

    I think Minnesota does value the franchise, but does not wish to line Mr Wilf’s pockets. You you don’t care how much money he walks away with, you are quite content to give him whatever he needs, as long as you have them near. Do you even attend games?

    I find it interesting that the elected officials who you claimed were clamoring for this stadium now are questioning the value of the deal. Rut row…..

    “Think about this while sipping your coffee at Starbucks and typing furiously on your laptop. My guess is you also have a scarf strategically thrown around your neck and you wear sunglasses indoors. Am I right?”

    I though I was the one who used broad based assumptive categorization as a literary device? It appears that is your specialty. Not that bright are you?

  69. stellarperformance says: May 15, 2011 5:12 PM

    recon163 says: May 15, 2011 10:23 AM

    stellarperformance: “Think about this while sipping your coffee at Starbucks and typing furiously on your laptop. My guess is you also have a scarf strategically thrown around your neck and you wear sunglasses indoors. Am I right?”

    recon199: I though I was the one who used broad based assumptive categorization as a literary device? It appears that is your specialty.
    ——————————————————————–

    Your haste to respond and the self-centered “I though” in lieu of “Although” tells me I hit a nerve and that my effort at profiling was likely right. Thanks for playing.

  70. recon163 says: May 15, 2011 6:00 PM

    @ stellarperformance:

    “Your haste to respond and the self-centered “I though” in lieu of “Although” tells me I hit a nerve and that my effort at profiling was likely right. Thanks for playing.”

    That’s it? Your argument for the stadium stops at a dropped letter and a word you want me to use?

    No, it I who thanks you. You have proven that indeed a great number of the ‘stadium at any cost’ crowd is comprised of morons, you know, like you.

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