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Report: Vikings, AEG meeting didn’t involve L.A. move

Zygi Wilf , Mark Wilf AP

In response to the report from Charley Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press regarding a Tuesday night meeting between Vikings management and folks from AEG, the company that wants to build a new pro football stadium in downtown L.A., Albert Breer of NFL Network reports that the meeting arose from an interest by the Wilf family in building an entertainment district in the vicinity of the stadium that the team plans to build in Arden Hills.

That’s fine, but let’s not be naive.  AEG has an existing entertainment district in L.A., and AEG needs at least one — and presumably would prefer two — NFL tenants for the football stadium it wants to build.

And if the Wilfs want advice on how to build an entertainment district in Minnesota, it would be foolish for AEG not to help out.  If nothing else, the gesture could give AEG some insight into whether or not the Vikings will potentially be in play for relocation.  Then, if it all falls apart in Minnesota, AEG already has the relationship in place, strengthened by the fact that AEG was willing to help the Vikings find a way to make things work.

Put simply, AEG is the guy who desperately wants to date a female friend who currently is in a difficult relationship.  Worst-case scenario, he strengthens the friendship.  Best case scenario, she moves to L.A. with him.

The fact that the meeting, as reported by Walters, occurred in a manner that allowed it to be noticed likely was no accident.  So while the Vikings can plausibly claim that they aren’t doing anything to overtly put the squeeze on Minnesota to get a stadium built, the mere existence of the line of communication should give the powers-that-be in the land of 10,000 lakes a little extra incentive to get their act together, quickly.

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147 Responses to “Report: Vikings, AEG meeting didn’t involve L.A. move”
  1. willycents says: May 26, 2011 9:14 PM

    I say that Zygi offers shares in the new stadium to every fan/voter in the state, say for $1000 per share. Granted, it might be complicated, but, with the size of the Minne market, he would be able to raise enough to build maybe 60% of the stadium and provide the rest himself(as he has offered).
    The only problem with this approach is that his partners(the players) would get 50% of the money raised, thus leaving a shortfall of approx$300M that the state would have to raise.
    Perhaps he could hire the NFLPA* lawyers to litigate out the details.

  2. dazdillinger213 says: May 26, 2011 9:23 PM

    You must have read my comment!

  3. dazdillinger213 says: May 26, 2011 9:35 PM

    Do you work for AEG? The Vikings come out and say “It didn’t involve moving to LA” It was a meeting with a former Minnesota Timberwolves VP that happens to work for AEG now. Why do you flip it and “stir the pot” like you do with every other story?! Get real. They aren’t leaving and I already know this..

  4. carlgerbschmidt says: May 26, 2011 9:38 PM

    Really? Yeah, and contra, pervy, phantom, and daz read Playboy for the articles…or Playgirl, whatever.

  5. Kave Krew says: May 26, 2011 9:38 PM

    I bet that the LA Vikings will win a SB before 2020…….

    I bet that The Mayflower Van Lines is sending truck to Minnesota as we speak……

  6. gdeli says: May 26, 2011 9:46 PM

    IDK if here in mn they will get their act together or the budget comes first.

  7. dazdillinger213 says: May 26, 2011 9:49 PM

    Shut the f up Carl. When it signed on the dotted line you and a couple of others will never hear the end of it from me. NOW go read about Packers stuff and get a life.

  8. goombar2 says: May 26, 2011 9:54 PM

    Nah nah nah nah… Nah nah nah nah… Hey, hey, hey! Goodbye!

    And might I add good riddance! No more welfare for the Minnesota Welfare Queens.

    Ziggy: Yeah… Errr… We were just discussing the best tex/mex with AEG… We said errr… Chilli’s baby back ribs… Ummm… We weren’t talking about the move 6 months from now!

  9. commandercornpone says: May 26, 2011 9:57 PM

    expansion.

    2 teams in LA. then lets talk… san antone… and canadia!

  10. hobartbaker says: May 26, 2011 10:07 PM

    No, the best case scenario is that she drives him just this side of comatose in a wild revenge **** weekend, then returns to the boyfriend who subsequently assumes all child rearing expenses.

  11. rcali says: May 26, 2011 10:10 PM

    Thank God we’re all stupid or this would be another example of Ziggy holding Minnesota tax payers over a barrel.

  12. schemefactory says: May 26, 2011 10:14 PM

    they can’t play in that flat balloon. they can’t play with the other teams in the division anyway: the only chance they have at another lost superbowl is to get transferred to the nfc weak, or “west”.

  13. ditkadontbutkus says: May 26, 2011 10:18 PM

    Queens are as good as gone, it looks like. So lets face facts and move on…

    How will this shake up the conference? Or will it? Will we have an NFC North team with a pacific time zone? Would MN become a market for an expansion team?

  14. vikefan says: May 26, 2011 10:22 PM

    whoooooooo, aint nuttin like puttin cart b4 da horse, eh pro football talk? so much for credible journalism here.

    good news is wilfs CAN have it both ways on this one, they can claim they r talking new stadium deal and strong arm the legislature and back door it with a different offer from the same developer in a different city. I dont blame em a bit, they are the owners, they can do whatever they want.

  15. deconjonesbitchslap says: May 26, 2011 10:32 PM

    the only accomplishment for MN sports in the past 20 years is that Kris Humphries is banging kim kardashian.

  16. seals1 says: May 26, 2011 10:49 PM

    Wilf is not stupid. Wilf will build a champion in MN or LA I’m sure of it.

    If the Vikes win a super bowl for Kim Karshian and not the blood and guts Vike fans in the Midwest I will melt down no question.

  17. david7590 says: May 26, 2011 10:51 PM

    and Bob Irsay had no intention of moving the God Damn team. If he did he’d tell you all right.

  18. therealfranchise says: May 26, 2011 10:54 PM

    All the meeting was about in a nutshell:

    Wilf: “Hey Minnesota, look, I’m talking with AEG. Better get my Arden Hills stadium passed, or I’ll actually start actually threatening to leave.”

    I’ve stated it before, the Vikings are not moving.

    Wilf wont split ownership or revenue, meaning he would have to sell the team. If L.A is going to build a billion dollar stadium, they will needclose to another billion to buy the team.

    Period. End of story.

  19. shelovesfootball says: May 26, 2011 11:07 PM

    Oh oh! Time to pick your new team..Lions or Packers or Bears, oh my!

  20. denverhighrize says: May 26, 2011 11:38 PM

    Hello Ray Lewis here. Please make sure the NFL happens this year or crime and murder will rise in your city.

    Love and peace (maybe),

    Ray Lewis

  21. seahawkhuskyfan says: May 26, 2011 11:50 PM

    We need a post that gives us the opportunity to express which side we are on and why. I am on the Owners side because —- Or I am on the players side because—– Give us a chance to read others comments as to why they support who they do.

  22. seahawkhuskyfan says: May 26, 2011 11:55 PM

    I am on the owners side because I think the players make too much money now. This world is tough enough for the “Average Joe” to just make it. So it is tough for us to feel sorry for some 25 year old kid with no other jobs skills who has been making more money in a year than some of us make in 20. Anybody can be an owner, just put up the dough and buy a team!
    And the players really lose ground when they speak, do they even understand how bad they come across to the “Average Joe”. And before you slam the “Average Joe”, he is the one who buys the jerseys, game tickets, and other stuff that makes this wheel turn.

  23. nahcouldntbethat says: May 27, 2011 12:17 AM

    So sorry for Minnesota fans at this point. It really sucks to lose your team and having LA take a team away again is going to rub salt in the wounds.

  24. xx4zu1 says: May 27, 2011 12:42 AM

    Hmmm looks like the circle jerk just added a new player and Minnesota is about to have premature evacuation of the Vikings. Ziggy played it well by dragging his feet on his best offer for the team’s share of the stadium.

    The legislature is out of session and lets face it folks does anyone have confidence that any currently elected offical will get something done during a regular session let alone a special session?

    In reality if the league wants to hold back another Billion from the players they could build their own stadiums one every year but why do that when they can pimp cities for a seat at the circle jerk? Sorry Minny fans guess you guys are gonna have to take a lesson from your former players and rent a boat and get some hookers from this point forward.

  25. jaggedmark says: May 27, 2011 2:15 AM

    I’m still trying to figure out why Zygi Wilf (who doesn’t live anywhere near Minnesota) hasn’t packed up his team and moved already.

  26. GG Eden says: May 27, 2011 6:23 AM

    denverhighrize says: May 26, 2011 11:38 PM

    Please make sure the NFL happens this year or crime and murder will rise in your city.

    Love and peace (maybe),

    Ray Lewis

    ———–

    haha.

  27. dg0122 says: May 27, 2011 7:22 AM

    Is that Ziggy or Uncle Leo?

  28. kennyrogerschicken says: May 27, 2011 7:26 AM

    dazdillinger213 –

    You’re really beginning to sound like pervy, claiming to know inside things and calling your shots like their inevitable. I’m hoping you keep it up, just like pervy does, since I’m sure there’s no way any of your claims are wrong, just like none of pervys ever are.

    I’m guessing the Vikings stay here, but I don’t know that for sure. You don’t, either, because if you were “in the know” you would practice a little more discretion. Or not, since you seem to be an idiot.

  29. dcviking says: May 27, 2011 7:36 AM

    xx4zu1 says: May 27, 2011 12:42 AM

    Hmmm looks like the circle jerk just added a new player and Minnesota is about to have premature evacuation of the Vikings.

    In reality if the league wants to hold back another Billion from the players they could build their own stadiums one every year but why do that when they can pimp cities for a seat at the circle jerk?
    —————————————

    Glad hear the expert on circle jerks has chimed in…

  30. youngs79 says: May 27, 2011 8:16 AM

    Look, anyone that thinks the Vikings are leaving Minnesota is dilussional. I’ve been reading Charley Walter’s column for years and I’ve got to tell you, he’s not always the most accurate or correct in what’s printed in his column.

  31. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 8:52 AM

    so groombar, how long have u lived in mn? if less than 50 years, Vikings were here first so get the f out!!! if u dont like it eh?

  32. dickroy says: May 27, 2011 9:01 AM

    I like tradition. When it comes to sports I will admit that I do not like change. I don’t even like to see teams change uniforms. I am a Steeler fan, but I would hate to see the Vikings move anywhere. If any team had to move to LA, I would rather see Jacksonville move because they are still establishing their tradition. I would also hate to see another expansion team, as that would throw off the even 32 teams. The four team 8 divisions is perfect.

  33. smoothjimmyapollo says: May 27, 2011 9:02 AM

    “Look, anyone that thinks the Vikings are leaving Minnesota is dilussional. I’ve been reading Charley Walter’s column for years and I’ve got to tell you, he’s not always the most accurate or correct in what’s printed in his column.”

    But the Vikings admitted they met with the AEG people so what he reported is accurate. This meeting doesn’t mean the Vikes are leaving, but if reading that the Vikings (a team rumored to consider moving) met with AEG (a group that wants a team to move) doesn’t make your heart skip a beat as a Viking fan, then you’re just being naive.

  34. thephantomstranger says: May 27, 2011 9:53 AM

    Daz –
    Do you know what happened to Jimmy? He hasn’t commented since you called him out.

  35. minnesconsin says: May 27, 2011 9:53 AM

    I’m not sure why Vikings fans have so much faith that Ziggy is going to do right by them. What has he done to earn that trust from you in the last 5-6 years to display this great love and concern for the state of MN and its people? He’s a business man. He has great love and concern for his bank accounts. He’s going to do right by Ziggy, first and foremost.

    The Wilfs are firmly installed in the driver’s seat, and he’s letting the MN legislature know it. Maybe there was no serious talk with AEG, who knows? I’d have to think they’d choose a more discrete location than the bar at the W Hotel if they were having any kind of advanced discussion. But it doesn’t matter. They could’ve been talking about American Idol or LA Live or the newest addition to their fleet of private jets. Point is, they met, they were seen, and that’s only going to add urgency to the situation in MN.

    I do find it interesting that, when asked about developing an entertainment district around the Arden Hills site, Ziggy has mostly given responses like “We’re focused on the stadium right now, nothing else.” Yet now he’s meeting in public to discuss ideas for an LA Live-esque development?

  36. goombar2 says: May 27, 2011 10:11 AM

    Poor… Poor vikefan… Like I said, I only have another year of living here before I leave. And then I will leave of my own accord.

    So I guess we could have a poll? Who’ll be here longer, me or the vikings? Put yer money down folks!

  37. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 10:24 AM

    I’m not sure why Vikings fans have so much faith that Ziggy is going to do right by them. What has he done to earn that trust from you in the last 5-6 years to display this great love and concern for the state of MN and its people? He’s a business man. He has great love and concern for his bank accounts. He’s going to do right by Ziggy, first and foremost.

    The Wilfs are firmly installed in the driver’s seat, and he’s letting the MN legislature know it. Maybe there was no serious talk with AEG, who knows? I’d have to think they’d choose a more discrete location than the bar at the W Hotel if they were having any kind of advanced discussion. But it doesn’t matter. They could’ve been talking about American Idol or LA Live or the newest addition to their fleet of private jets. Point is, they met, they were seen, and that’s only going to add urgency to the situation in MN.

    I do find it interesting that, when asked about developing an entertainment district around the Arden Hills site, Ziggy has mostly given responses like “We’re focused on the stadium right now, nothing else.” Yet now he’s meeting in public to discuss ideas for an LA Live-esque development?

    ******************************************

    What has Zygi done to earn our trust? Only be willing make an awesome trade for #69, willing to take a chance on Harvin (minus the headaches), cleaning out locker room from riff raff, extremely supportive & generous in local community, dedicated to creating the best team possible (even if it meant getting sucked in by Favre), and immediately putting $ INTO the practice as soon as team was purchased. This all proves & shows dedication to the team & community about being commited to sucess.

  38. tombradysponytail says: May 27, 2011 10:27 AM

    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 9:53 AM
    Daz –
    Do you know what happened to Jimmy? He hasn’t commented since you called him out.

    _______

    Do you blame Jimmy? Daz seems a touch unstable if you ask me…

  39. thephantomstranger says: May 27, 2011 10:59 AM

    Why is it so many of the biggest Packer fans live in Minnesota? Goombar, Jimmy, Carl, kenny. Maybe we could fund the stadium with a $5 toll on everyone in Wisconsin who tries to escape into Minnesota.

  40. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 11:04 AM

    Poor… Poor vikefan… Like I said, I only have another year of living here before I leave. And then I will leave of my own accord.

    So I guess we could have a poll? Who’ll be here longer, me or the vikings? Put yer money down folks!

    ***********************************

    groombar, this is the first i have heard of u moving, best regards in your future, glad u wont have to pay the taxes u r not interested in paying. Hope u can find a place that will make u proud of your community……….thats why the Vikings are here cause WE ARE PROUD!!

  41. carlgerbschmidt says: May 27, 2011 11:35 AM

    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 10:59 AM
    Why is it so many of the biggest Packer fans live in Minnesota? Goombar, Jimmy, Carl, kenny. Maybe we could fund the stadium with a $5 toll on everyone in Wisconsin who tries to escape into Minnesota.

    _________

    I don’t think so. Lived there for about a year as part of a job exchange program between WISDOT and MNDOT, but got out as soon as I could. Taxes are way too high and the people are kind of hard to take long-term….

  42. minnesconsin says: May 27, 2011 12:03 PM

    vikefan says:

    What has Zygi done to earn our trust? Only be willing make an awesome trade for #69, willing to take a chance on Harvin (minus the headaches), cleaning out locker room from riff raff, extremely supportive & generous in local community, dedicated to creating the best team possible (even if it meant getting sucked in by Favre), and immediately putting $ INTO the practice as soon as team was purchased. This all proves & shows dedication to the team & community about being commited to sucess.
    ——————————–

    The Wilfs have made some bold moves and have drafted a couple of very good players. They do want to win, and have shown they’re not afraid to spend money to make that happen — that’s clear.

    What’s not clear to me is how this translates to an indication that Zygi is dedicated to the best interests of the people of MN, or that he cares even in the slightest bit about the “history” or “tradition” of the Vikings or what they “mean” to their fans.

    Every team in the NFL is involved in positive ways in their surrounding communities, some more than others. That’s how business build good will with the public.

    Listen, I’m not saying Zygi is a scumbag, I’m saying he’s a businessman. Some might say there’s no difference, I’m not one of them. I just wish you guys would take off the Helga horns and purple tights long enough to consider the very real possibility that your saviors Zygi and Mark just might place their own prospects of financial gain ahead of your perception that the Vikings are a MN institution that must stay in place for eternity.

  43. minnesconsin says: May 27, 2011 12:11 PM

    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 10:59 AM
    Why is it so many of the biggest Packer fans live in Minnesota? Goombar, Jimmy, Carl, kenny. Maybe we could fund the stadium with a $5 toll on everyone in Wisconsin who tries to escape into Minnesota.
    ——————–
    I grew up right on the border, but on the Wisco side, and half the city cheered for the Vikings. That’s not surprising, as a big chunk of western Wisco falls into the Vikings’ tv territory.

    That’s what makes the rivalry so interesting to me:

    Plenty of Packers fans in the Twin Cities
    Plenty of Vikings fans in Western WI / St Croix River Valley

    Plenty of Packers fans in Duluth
    Plenty of Vikings fans in Superior

    Plenty of Packers fans in Rochester
    Plenty of Vikings fans in La Crosse

    etc, etc.

  44. thephantomstranger says: May 27, 2011 12:13 PM

    carlgerbschmidt says:
    May 27, 2011 11:35 AM
    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 10:59 AM
    Why is it so many of the biggest Packer fans live in Minnesota? Goombar, Jimmy, Carl, kenny. Maybe we could fund the stadium with a $5 toll on everyone in Wisconsin who tries to escape into Minnesota.

    _________

    I don’t think so. Lived there for about a year as part of a job exchange program between WISDOT and MNDOT, but got out as soon as I could. Taxes are way too high and the people are kind of hard to take long-term….
    _______________

    I thought I recognized that guy in a cheesehead picking up road kill. Thanks for your contributions toward beautifying our state.

  45. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 12:20 PM

    for someone who complains bout taxes carl have u filled up at the pump lately, WI has one of the highest state gas taxes in the country, dont see those highways made of gold & silver & u have more country roads than us.

  46. carlgerbschmidt says: May 27, 2011 1:27 PM

    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 12:13 PM
    I thought I recognized that guy in a cheesehead picking up road kill. Thanks for your contributions toward beautifying our state.

    __________

    Its’ called a cheeseHAT, people who wear them are called cheeseheads.

    You people are so stupid. You deserve the vikes.

  47. carlgerbschmidt says: May 27, 2011 1:29 PM

    vikefan says:
    May 27, 2011 12:20 PM
    for someone who complains bout taxes carl have u filled up at the pump lately, WI has one of the highest state gas taxes in the country, dont see those highways made of gold & silver & u have more country roads than us.

    ______

    I have no problem with gas taxes, it’s a user tax, you don’t want to pay it, then don’t drive. Problem solved.

    Persaonlly, I do have a problem with having to pay sales taxes to fund some rich guys stadium, but hey, if you’re okay with it, by all means, give Zygi a helping hand.

  48. dazdillinger213 says: May 27, 2011 2:15 PM

    Of course PFT deletes my comment.. Why? Is it because you want to stir the pot??? Hmm?

    Well here is again.

    From Bagley written by Tim Nelson:

    Vikings meet with LA developers

    Posted at 4:30 PM on May 26, 2011 by Tim Nelson (0 Comments)
    Filed under: Vikings stadium

    Well, that didn’t take long.

    Just a day after the Legislature adjourned without a stadium deal for the Vikings, team officials were meeting with representatives from AEG, the Los Angeles outfit that’s proposed Farmer’s Field in L.A.

    They were spotted at a downtown Minneapolis hotel. It wasn’t what you think, says Vikings vice president Lester Bagley.

    The meeting was with former Timbervolves VP, and now AEG CEO Tim Leiweke. His company runs the Target Center, as well as a host of other venues. The company developed LA Live, a 4 million square foot, $2.5 billion dollar downtown LA sports and entertainment complex.

    “The discussion about Los Angeles was about LA Live, that sports entertainment model that they created there,” Bagley said of the meeting. “We’re trying to re-create that type of energy at the Arden Hills development if we can.”

    Bagley said AEG might well be a candidate to do that in Arden Hills themselves — bringing LA to the Vikings, as it were, rather than the other way around.

    But AEG is also the developer behind Farmers Field, a proposed NFL venue in Los Angeles. The insurance company has reportedly offered $1 billion in naming fees if AEG can bring a pair of NFL teams to the stadium.

    Improve Target Center
    Tim Leiweke — president and CEO of Anschutz Entertainment Group, which has a contract to manage Target Center — was in town to work on improving the building at the same time St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman announced a Vikings stadium plan that would include shutting down Target Center and moving the Wolves and Lynx to Xcel Energy Center.

    Leiweke, who started his managing career at Target Center and has built AEG into one of the biggest companies of its type in the country, said: “We are working with the Timberwolves and the city on a long-term vision to renovate Target Center. And we’re also working to make sure that the building is working at fitting into the long-term vision for downtown Minneapolis.”

    From AEG:

    Leiweke, Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak, members of the Minneapolis city council and business community and Wolves, Twins and Vikings officials got together to talk about how to improve Target Center. Built in 1990, it’s now one of the oldest arenas in the NBA.

    Leiweke and AEG also are in the process of building a football stadium in downtown Los Angeles and hope to land an NFL franchise, but Leiweke said he was here to help the Vikings with their stadium problem and not to try to steal their franchise.

    “We met with the Vikings to understand their vision,” Leiweke said. “We were supportive of them to try and find a solution. We’ll stay in touch with them and see what we can do to help them long-term.”

    Leiweke, who has proved to be a super-genius in helping various cities work out their sports arena problems, has a feeling for this area and he no doubt can contribute a lot in trying to solve those issues. He can be a big help to this community.

    That is the real story PFT….quit spinning it.

    @Phantom, I may or may not know where Jimmy is. It’s nice that he is gone though..

    @KennyRogers, you can choose to believe what you want. I am just posting the “real news” here and not someone’s one minded spun article.

  49. brewdogg says: May 27, 2011 2:18 PM

    minnesconsin says:
    May 27, 2011 12:11 PM
    thephantomstranger says:
    May 27, 2011 10:59 AM
    Why is it so many of the biggest Packer fans live in Minnesota? Goombar, Jimmy, Carl, kenny. Maybe we could fund the stadium with a $5 toll on everyone in Wisconsin who tries to escape into Minnesota.
    ——————–
    I grew up right on the border, but on the Wisco side, and half the city cheered for the Vikings. That’s not surprising, as a big chunk of western Wisco falls into the Vikings’ tv territory.

    That’s what makes the rivalry so interesting to me:

    Plenty of Packers fans in the Twin Cities
    Plenty of Vikings fans in Western WI / St Croix River Valley

    Plenty of Packers fans in Duluth
    Plenty of Vikings fans in Superior

    Plenty of Packers fans in Rochester
    Plenty of Vikings fans in La Crosse

    etc, etc.
    ———————————————

    For once we agree. And I think that’s why the fans on both sides in these contested areas are so hard-core about it. It’s like a little guy always fighting at a bar…… He feels he has to constantly prove he’s tough. When surrounded by fans of a rival team, you find yourself holding to your loyalty that much tighter.

    That said, it still troubles me that people act so much more childishly behind the anonymity of the internet. When face-to-face with fans of the rival team, most people are at least respectful and honest. It’s much different on here….

  50. brewdogg says: May 27, 2011 2:53 PM

    You know, I wonder if the detractors to this Arden Hills site have considered the ancillary benefits of the stadium and surrounding development at that site….

    Think about it. The Lino Lakes and Hugo areas are wide open. Forest Lake is growing rapidly. There’s nothing north of 35W. Is it so hard to imagine the northern area of the metro area involved in a developmental boom like what the Bloomington/Edina/Burnsville area has seen. While I realize at least part of whatever success development in these areas has will be at the cost of the southern suburbs, the thought of additional tourist destinations north of the downtown areas intrigues me. Let’s not forget that Zygi targeted an area in Blaine earlier. I think he, as a businessman and developer, is looking at all this and seeing numerous possibilities.

  51. goombar2 says: May 27, 2011 3:19 PM

    My wife works in TV and I follow her. Just because I’m only here a year doesn’t make my vote any less than anybody else.

    And if you had your way, you’d kick 75% (that’s the % that is against the Ziggy Bailout) of the people out of the state to build a stadium for a rich guy and then figure out… Duh, there’s nobody to actually pay for the stadium.

    If nobody has the testicular fortitude to say it I will. Ziggy doesn’t care if he wins or loses, all he cares about is drumming up interest in his product. That’s why he wanted Favre so bad. He didn’t believe he was going to win anything now or later. It was a circus freak move that sold tickets to the same idiots that would pay money to see a chicken head eating geek show.

    The reason Favre retired from the Pack is that TT would spend big bucks to get Moss. And guess what Ziggy did? And then he got mad at Childress for canning Moss, even though Moss was a turd, a distraction, and lazy – then fired the coach!

    Ziggy didn’t care that Moss sucked and it needed to be done. All he cared about was that fans weren’t buying jerseys or the hope in the crappy product he helped to create.

    And since Circus Solea or whatever the heck’s in town, maybe you should take a look at how they operate. It’s a lot better than the vikes AND they ain’t begging for welfare year after year and then asking for EVEN MORE welfare.

  52. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 3:37 PM

    groombar: so you are only here for 1 year YET your voice should be heard and vote counted as if you will be here for the next 30, THAT is complete B___ F__kn SH__!!! YOU think that you have the right to determine what every other resident that will reside in this state the rest of their lives will get to do cause u lived here 1 year, u are a fricken a-s!!

    Zygi has commited to spending quality $ since buying the vikings unlike his predessor mccombs WHO did not care bout winning, only $. Since u r leaving and hate the vikings as well, the only right u have is keeping your mouth shut. Ron White is correct!! U just cant fix stupid!!!

  53. goombar2 says: May 27, 2011 5:33 PM

    Yeah, I get to vote because I live here. Tough cookies, that’s America and representative democracy. I don’t sit here and say, well, geez Minnesota, I’ve only been here 2 years so how about I not pay taxes…

    At Christmas time I made donations in cash (because they were so far behind in the Twin Cities) and I also bought my son a toy to give another child. I didn’t sit around and say, well, I’m only gonna be here for a little while and it’s not really my community so screw it. Perhaps you remember how bad it was this last Christmas? Or maybe you just didn’t give a crap about others…

    I’ve done many things for the community that I’m not going to mention cause I did them out of civic pride and love my fellow man, I’ve been a good neighbor and citizen, I’ve paid my taxes – I have just as much right and my vote means just as much as anyone else.

    You may disagree with me on this issue of bailouts for billionares, but keep in mind and it’s something you have yet to square away, you also disagree with 75% of voters too!

    So most of the folks you think are Minnesota “enough” side with me – not you! Stick that in your tail pipe…

  54. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 5:51 PM

    All Packer nutjobs, queue most recent story bout LA, hahahahahahahahahahahaha

  55. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 6:18 PM

    show me 75% of voters that are against it

  56. vikefan says: May 27, 2011 6:21 PM

    …………and to vote on something that you will not be here to deal with and dont care about is completely classless, good luck in your referendum (which u wont get) hahahahahaha

  57. therealfranchise says: May 27, 2011 6:23 PM

    Again, people seem to forget that no matter what team agrees to go to L.A, their owner will be splitting revenue. I cant imagine any owner is willing to do that with the current situation the NFL is in.

    The only other option is to sell the team, and I highly doubt the L.A group will be able to buck up a billion doallars for a stadium and close to another billion to buy a team.

  58. brewdogg says: May 27, 2011 10:20 PM

    goombar….

    I had a feeling deep down you were a decent guy, despite the rounds we’ve gone. Just a couple things….

    First, where did you find the poll you are referring to? What was the sample size and how was it achieved? By saying that 75% are against it, you are speaking for 4 million Minnesotans. And while we are at it, let’s poll the same people and ask if they approve of tax breaks to Fortune 500 companies. Essentially the same thing, except tax breaks don’t make the news and are never put up for public vote.

    Second, while you have the legal right to vote on any of these propositions as a current Minnesota resident, does that give you the moral right to vote on something that will, in the long term, not benefit or burden you financially?

    The facts of the matter are that, one way or another, the state’s tax revenues will be affected by this decision. If the Vikings leave, so does a signifigant amount of tax revenue that will have to be accounted for in the coming years. This is not an issue of right and wrong, but more of a decision of the lesser of two evils. In order to maintain the current level of tax revenue, additional revenue will have to found for the new stadium, OR, in order to maintain the current level of government expenses, new tax revenue will have to be obtained to account for that which left.

    The decision seems simple to me, if you look beyond the big numbers put up and the anti-Viking rhetoric. It’s easy to hate the idea, but we should be aware of the consequences as well.

  59. goombar2 says: May 28, 2011 2:45 AM

    Oh my, does the word “fallacy” mean anything to you Brew? Because your worn out argument is nothing but!

    According to you, nobody over 50 should really vote on this because as of right now most people would die before the 30 years is up. And vike fan doesn’t think anyone under 50 should get a vote as they aren’t Minnesota “enough”. Perhaps children should be signed up because actuaries could vouch for them! Nonsense! Utter nonsense! It’s the stuff of folks that know they are in the wrong.

    And you don’t know whether I would move back here, because I don’t know that either. The morality argument is bunk. As long as I, in good conscience and sound mind, cast a vote I believe is right – that WOULD BE the absolute moral thing to do!

    I’ll admit, I can goof about things a bit too much and be a smart guy. But I’m not putting down things that are untrue.

    There is no proof the tax base will change either way, and certainly no proof sports teams are beneficial as tax bases. That’s a lie. And it was on this site that 75% aren’t in favor of the billionaire bail out for Ziggy. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/31/vikings-stadium-bill-only-days-away/

    http://www.startribune.com/politics/105646548.html

    But if not for revenue sharing, the vikes would almost never show a profit. And with the CBA situation, revenue sharing might be a thing of the past. So what happens if it goes away? Will there be another bail out because Ziggy can fill the stadium and fan interest is luke warm (people will catch on that this is a freak show)? Wouldn’t you have to after you throw millions toward this boondoggle? This is why government has no place in private enterprise.

    You guys act like you’re thinking about the future, but all you guys care about is the here and now. I see you vike fans still have learned nothing from the Favre debacle. Just amazing…

  60. thephantomstranger says: May 28, 2011 10:48 AM

    Thank you for looking out for our best interests, goombar. You’re right, we’ll be so much better off when the team leaves town. Oh, and thanks for putting a dollar in the Salvation Army pot last Christmas. What would we do without you?

  61. brewdogg says: May 28, 2011 1:41 PM

    How can you say there is no proof the tax base will change? Seriously, who is being ignorant now? Are you contending that none of the Vikings players pay taxes? That the franchise doesn’t pay taxes? Are you really going to contend that there will be no drop in state tax revenue if the franchise leaves? Please…..

    And as far as your revenue sharing argument…. What happens to the Packers if revenue sharing disappears? Whoops….. How are they going to make up for that? Would you, if you were a Wisconsin resident, approve a slight tax increase to keep the Packers financially solvent?

    You are acting like you are thinking about what is best for the people of Minnesota, but all you care about is seeing the Vikings and Viking fans suffer. If you have convinced yourself of your stance, then by all means, cast your vote. But stop pretending like you have some holy purpose for it. It’s about your own personal feelings for a business you revile, period.

  62. goombar2 says: May 28, 2011 3:38 PM

    Because no one can offer one bit of evidence that the tax revenue changes. Just because you collect taxes, doesn’t negate that you are spending just as much government money as it generates.

    The one guy here who mentioned prestige in a goofy way had a point. By having an NFL team a region can attract corporate headquarters and businesses. So perhaps there might be an offset there, but it’s no real gain and it’s unprovable. But there are already a pro hockey, basketball, and baseball team, so an argument can be made that there already is enough to do.

    And when balanced against a 5 billion debt and telling schools to tighten their belt and the loss of public services… It’s not even a choice.

    If your argument was actually true, California should be going gangbusters and tax revenue should be pouring in and taxes should be low. But it is NOT true.

    As far as the Packers, no I would not be in support of putting them on the dole. Either their brand makes money or it doesn’t. But this isn’t even a debate, the Pack makes a profit as a nonprofit. Is it as much as Washington or Dallas? No, but #5 isn’t bad either considering they aren’t supposed to make a profit.

    I’ll admit, I don’t like the vikings, but so what? It doesn’t take away from the logic that in Minnesota the don’t have enough fans to make money. So because their business model is so poor we should make everyone pay for the entertainment of a few? And cut services from the poor and middle class while doing it?

    Sorry Charlie, you should feel lucky you got 21% support… Billionaire bailouts for Ziggy can wait. He should cut a deal with AEG, just makes sense.

  63. goombar2 says: May 28, 2011 4:06 PM

    I gave away far more than “a dollar” phantom… It’s nice though you feel like marginalizing what I do for my community when it was in need. It’s one of many things I’ve done over the past year of being here.

    If the crux of your argument is to attack me on my community service and donations, you won’t get much support and you only look foolish.

    My point of bringing it up wasn’t that, look at me I’m a better person or anything like that. The point was, I do take a vested interest in my community and it’s betterment. To say I’m not Minnesota “enough” to have the right to a vote…

    Well, I’ll put it this way, I’m not surprised the guy wanting to marginalize another’s community service and citizenship would also be in favor of welfare for the billionaire who’s not a resident while sending the bill to the middle class and poor of the actual state of Minnesota.

  64. brewdogg says: May 28, 2011 9:31 PM

    Okay, fine, let’s just go with the contention that the removal of a few hundred million in corporate revenue and a hundred million more in personal income doesn’t generate a dime of state tax revenue. (rolleyes) Let’s just discuss the “burden” of the proposals….

    Assume for a minute that the state contribution is spread equally to every working Minnesotan. I’ll even give the argument that $300 million in bonds will mature to $500 million in payouts over 30 years (which makes sense anyway). 5.3 million Minnesotans, and let’s just assume half are children and retirees. That leaves 2.65 million working Minnesotans to bear the burden of that $500 million. That comes out to….$6.29 per year. Wow. I can see why people are up in arms. That’s a whole pack of cigarettes!! We’ll just ignore the fact that any kind of sales tax or income tax will be less for those who make less and therefore spend less, and more for those who make more and therefore spend more. I can see how losing a can of pop every couple weeks will be too much to bear.

    There was talk of a 2% tax on alcohol. Well, we can’t have that!! An extra quarter for your case of Busch Light?!? I don’t think so!!!!

    But you’re right, I have no proof that the Vikings generate any state revenue, nor do I have proof that they create more local revenue. But guess who does…..The government officials who are making the decision!!!! They do have access to the amount of tax revenue that is directly tied to the franchise, as have the officials of every state and city that has approved public funding for stadiums. But I’m sure every one of them is just making an emotional decision at the cost of the financial well-being of their constituents……

    I’m sorry if this is just too logical for you to bear….

  65. vikefan says: May 28, 2011 9:41 PM

    Groombar, to say the state will not lose tax revenue is absurd. U claim the state will spend the same amount of money without the payroll taxes and business taxes directly and undirectly related to it? That is the exact reason we need to keep the Vikings here with community pride and loyal fans aside!! That HELPS bridge the states 5billion gap!! If they leave, it becomes larger & more schools, welfare, etc will be hurt. Some of your narrowmindedness does not truly understand the satellite $ impact to this state the Vikings have. I know ppl who fly in from europe and all over the u.s. every year for vikings games. You are talking hotels, restaurants, airline tix, taxis, souvenirs, etc. THESE are tax $$$ you want the state to throw away. I hope you have lots of pride in your community giving cause if this fails and the states gap widens, u will get the opportunity to give a lot more. But maybe thats what u want to see all along, u making your community look better for a year while 2/3 of the state cry if the beloved vikings leave. I am glad u care about your immediate community but obviously u dont care bout state as a whole. To claim there is already hockey, basketball, baseball is nonsense. Some of us only like 1 sport and that is football. We should not be dismissed cause there is “enough” sports already. Pathetic argument. But then every one of yours has and u still have not proven a single fact in any argument. You really better hope for a referendum (again which i state no other pro team has needed and vikings wont either) or your last thought will be as absurd as the rest. I understand u dont like the vikings but that is no reason to act as a vikings hater and attempt to ruin it for those very people who LUV to give their money to the Vikings and NFL. U need solid ground for solid arguments and like the rest of the nay sayers that have come forward, you continue to prove nothing.

  66. recon163 says: May 28, 2011 10:57 PM

    Economic Review-2001
    “What Are the Benefits of Hosting a Major League Sports Franchise?”

    Authors: Rappaport and Wilkerson

    “Still another approach to measuring the impact of professional sports teams is to analyze the specific economic activity generated by specific teams in specific locations. For example, Hamilton and Kahn measured the annual returns to Maryland residents from Baltimore’s NFL Ravens at approximately $1 million, compared to a $14 million annual public cost for their new stadium. Similarly, Baade (1997) meas- ured the annual returns to Washington state residents from Seattle’s MLB Mariners at between $3.8 and $5.1 million, compared to a $28 million annual public cost for their new stadium.”

    And…..

    “If anything, the baseline values estimated above likely overstate rather than understate the benefits they measure. As discussed, there is much doubt that hosting a professional sports team creates any jobs. Moreover, many host metro areas tax spending at a rate lower than the assumed 5 percent baseline. And, many do not tax income at all. As a result, it is reasonable to believe that the net present value of the jobs and tax benefits may be no more than $5 million from hosting an NBA or NHL team and no more than $10 million from hosting an NFL or MLB team. Even using the upper-bound estimates from the analysis above suggests that the public outlays on current sports facility projects far exceed any associated jobs and tax benefits.”

  67. recon163 says: May 28, 2011 11:00 PM

    @ brewdogg:

    “Assume for a minute that the state contribution is spread equally to every working Minnesotan. I’ll even give the argument that $300 million in bonds will mature to $500 million in payouts over 30 years (which makes sense anyway). 5.3 million Minnesotans, and let’s just assume half are children and retirees. That leaves 2.65 million working Minnesotans to bear the burden of that $500 million. That comes out to….$6.29 per year.”

    You are very generous with other peoples money. According to you they should all be happy to give up $6.29 a year. Try this…..stand on a street corner and demand every passer by provide you with $6.29 to support a new stadium for the Vikings. Let us know how that goes for you……

  68. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 10:10 AM

    Recon: so ur saying all the satellite sales not only game day & team tax dollars directly related to a new stadium, but higher real estate values in Arden Hills, shops, restaurants, entertainment, jobs, hotels, business growth for Arden Hills and surrounding as a specific travel destination would not cover $300 mil in bonding? Sorry, personally I dont believe it.

    There is so much bitching over this, maybe the Vikings should just sell PSL’s and Parking PSL’s, take state out of equation. Do so via vikings season ticket holder accounts credit card system where all game day charges get put on your account and make Vikings publicly accountable to season ticket holders only. When the Vikings make money, season ticket holders are rewarded with a dividend via season ticket holder account. Then all of you haters that want to be part of success in a few years can f__k off.

  69. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 10:19 AM

    BTW Recon: thats what happed for twins & timberwolves, NOBODY in public wanted that stadium, only twins franchise, I personally HATE baseball but firmly believed it would be awesome for twins to have outdoor field casue I lived in chicago for 10 years and loved outdoor baseball @ wrigley & comiskey. Think about this, not only did the community NOT WANT IT, it is rated as one of the best stadiums in the entire country!! Again i dont like baseball, but how aweome is that for the community?!!! Its about the greater good of the community, NOT my personal likes…..and now the place is almost sold out every game 82 times over, THAT is awesome. Its what is right for the community, team, & sport. SAME THING FOR THE VIKINGS!!

  70. therealfranchise says: May 29, 2011 10:26 AM

    Quick economic points:

    A 2009 study completed by Conventions, Sports & Leisure (CSL)showed that a new stadium and the Vikings will generate $26million in taxes annually.

    Over 22% of Vikings Season Ticket Owners live outside the Stateof Minnesota and approximately 40% of STOs reside outside ofthe metro area. 50% of fans who come from outside the TwinCities stay in a hotel and spend money in the community whenthey attend a Vikings game.

    A 2010 study completed by the University of Minnesota on theJanuary 2010 Vikings-Cowboys playoff game showed visitinggame-day attendees (non-metro residents) spent $5.8 million inrestaurants, hotels and retail stores and on transportation.

    Due to the $5.8 million in direct spending by Vikings visitors,overall sales (output) in the Twin Cities economy expanded by$9.1 million for the weekend.

    CSL’s study also showed the project will lead to $145 million in direct annual spending by fans, the Vikings, the team’semployees and players, visiting teams and the NFL in connection with games and the operation of the facility.

  71. therealfranchise says: May 29, 2011 10:32 AM

    I also forgot to add that with the new stadium would add hosting such events as The Final Four and the Super Bowl, which host cities/states economy gains were $87 million for the NCAA Final 4, and $320 million for the Super Bowl.

  72. therealfranchise says: May 29, 2011 10:38 AM

    Vikefan,

    You are also forgetting about what the Excel Energy Center.

    Nobody wanted to built that facility, yet it is now known as the best arena in the NHL, and completely revitalized the mess downtown St Paul was before.

    Without The X being built, the River Center never would have gotten a facelift, and the same for the Science Museum.

  73. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 10:47 AM

    To all MN resident Packer fan Vikings stadium haters: I challenge each of you to call yourself a true fan, if u were such great fans (even though you maybe for your storied franchise), you are not true football fans. A true football fan would want to continue the aweome rivalries and tradition that the NFC Norris has established in the upper midwest. These 4 teams have an awesome tradition and if you were a true football fan and love going to Green Bay games, you would want the same experience at a Vikings game which the Arden Hills proposal offers. If you are a Packer fan but dont want to see the Vikings suceed at a new stadium proposal, perhaps it is time for u to move further from Green Bay such as ND, SD, IA, Idaho, or Montana where u may get lucky enuff to see them on tv without paying our MN taxes.

  74. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 11:35 AM

    @ vikefan:

    “Recon: so ur saying all the satellite sales not only game day & team tax dollars directly related to a new stadium, but higher real estate values in Arden Hills, shops, restaurants, entertainment, jobs, hotels, business growth for Arden Hills and surrounding as a specific travel destination would not cover $300 mil in bonding?”

    I am not saying it. Economists have said it and proven it. Also studies have shown that locations where public financing has increased taxes it has decreased property values. Why? Because it costs more to live there.

    “Sorry, personally I dont believe it.”

    Up to you.

    ” . . .maybe the Vikings should just sell PSL’s and Parking PSL’s, take state out of equation. Do so via vikings season ticket holder accounts credit card system where all game day charges get put on your account and make Vikings publicly accountable to season ticket holders only.”

    I would agree with this tact. This allows the Vikings fans to have the direct hand in keeping the team in town.

    I find the accountable piece funny. Do you honestly believe the Vikings will shut out all fans?

    “When the Vikings make money, season ticket holders are rewarded with a dividend via season ticket holder account.”

    And herein lies the rub. The owners will not want to share dividends with PSL owners because they consider that their money. But yet one is supposed to believe they will share that largess with the State?

  75. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 11:46 AM

    @ vikefan:

    “BTW Recon: thats what happed for twins & timberwolves, NOBODY in public wanted that stadium, only twins franchise . . .”

    So? I also believe the public should not have to pay for a baseball stadium.

    “Think about this, not only did the community NOT WANT IT, it is rated as one of the best stadiums in the entire country!!”

    So? It is rated highly. Great. In 20 years it won’t be, you will be buying a new one, and it too will be rated highly. How highly it is rated today is immaterial.

    “Again i dont like baseball, but how aweome is that for the community?!!!”

    I though this was about economics, not awesomeness?

    “Its what is right for the community, team, & sport. SAME THING FOR THE VIKINGS!!”

    The only one of the three that matters is the community. The team is a business and their business is the sport they are in.

  76. therealfranchise says: May 29, 2011 12:39 PM

    Recon, scroll up and read.

  77. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 2:10 PM

    @therealfranchise:

    I did read it and take it with a shaker full of salt.

    More from Rappaport and Wilkerson

    “These impact studies that justify stadium projects can be subject to a number of criticisms. Many of the studies look at only the positive effects of hosting a major league franchise. Taking account of negative effects such as offsetting job losses, however, would produce much lower estimates of the net impact on local economic development. Moreover, the impact studies almost always fail to measure benefits in a form that can be compared with public outlays.”

    So to think that an agency pushing for publicly financed stadium construction would find a negative result when they study the issue, is putting a lot of faith in folks who may not have the best public interest in mind.

    As an example, the UM study was commissioned by ‘Meet Minneapolis’, the city’s convention and visitors bureau and was done to gauge the impact of sports on the local tourism industry so it can create better marketing promotions around such events in the future.

    I choose to believe folks who do not stand to gain from a new stadium. Your call on who you believe.

  78. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 2:17 PM

    u r correct realfranchise

    to recon, groombar & rest: aka ron white, you just cant fix stupid

  79. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 2:45 PM

    @ therealfranchise:

    “I also forgot to add that with the new stadium would add hosting such events as The Final Four and the Super Bowl. . .”

    You mean “I hope…” unless you are on the site selection committee for either event, you cannot guarantee that either event will be held at the new facility.

  80. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 4:17 PM

    @ vikefan:

    “u r correct realfranchise”

    Correct about what? Can you elaborate on why you think realfranchise is correct? Or is that beyond your limited mental capacity?

    “to recon, groombar & rest: aka ron white, you just cant fix stupid”

    I agree. An ignorant person can be convinced by providing them with facts and knowledge. The stupid person is the one who cannot accept any viewpoint beyond the one they hold. No facts, figures, or other discussion can get them to admit they may be wrong. Which leads us back to you…..

  81. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 4:30 PM

    Obviiously some make a decision SOLEY on a cost factor to the taxpayer while others………

    ..consider jobs created, travel & entertainment dollars directly affecting local economy, community pride & well rounded entertainment choices, chances of holding larger national events, and embracing community partnerships.

    AGAIN, U CANT FIX STUPID

  82. goombar2 says: May 29, 2011 4:43 PM

    Wow, just wow! In 2001 Jesse Venture, a huge sports fan (and particularly vike fan) put together a group and you know what they concluded about the economic benefits?

    “…hard to justify”. That’s right, a board with real Minnesotan’s (put together by a viking fan) came back and said they found that there was no real proof of ANY economic benefit. http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/taskforces/Stadiumfinalreport.pdf

    So can we please put this myth to rest? Because you can’t show me a real study, by an independent agency that says otherwise. It doesn’t exist. The ones you guys love to show off are bought and paid for. Next you guys will tell me smoking cures cancer – because the national tobacco farmers association’s chief scientist did a study!

    The board did conclude a stadium for the vikes and gophers should be made because of emotional reasons. But I’m sorry, that’s not good enough for me – I’m not a vike fan.

    And stop with the history crap. You guys haven’t had a team longer than Lambeau Field has existed, you have no championships, no legacy, few stars, few big games that are memorable or important in NFL historic terms. The Bucs weren’t that much younger than you and the world didn’t end when they left, and I was no less a fan of football because I could care less about them leaving.

    And vikefan, ask yourself why they won’t do PSLs… Could it be that they already can’t sell out the MetroDump? Imagine telling fans to now pony up 2Gs to see Ponder ( I guess he’s the face of the franchise) and the rest of that 6-10 team. I think the Maytag man would get more calls than the switch board operator at the ticket window for the vikes!

    The truth is the vikings made this mess themselves with a bad product nobody is interested in for that kinda money and they did it over a 50 year span of time. Now it’s time to go knocking on my door once again asking for money. Well, HELL NO! This well is dry! 50 years of hand outs is OVER!

    It only costs 6 bucks… Hey, I wanna be a billionaire like Ziggy, how’s about all of Minnesotans give me 6 bucks too! It’s MY 6 bucks and you have no RIGHT TO IT! I mean, come on, it’s only 6 bucks! And what’s 12 bucks a year? And Jimmy Smith wants to be a billionaire too! What’s 18 buck?

    Before you know it, people will be working three jobs, and you morons will be talking about how many billionaire have been created… What a great economy! Absolutely idiotic!

    If it doesn’t pay for itself, doesn’t have the fanbase large enough for the political pull necessary… Maybe it’s not a good business? Maybe it needs to go to a city more football centric? That’s capitalism for a private company.

    Yeah, some folks will be hurt, but that’s life. A long time ago a horse carriage builder went out of business. Folks lost jobs. But aren’t cars better? You guys are too emotional, this is business. Sorry.

  83. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 5:39 PM

    @ vikefan:

    “obviously some make a decision SOLEY on a cost factor to the taxpayer while others………

    ..consider jobs created, travel & entertainment dollars directly affecting local economy, community pride & well rounded entertainment choices, chances of holding larger national events, and embracing community partnerships.”

    Hmmm…..I think every study I have noted does just that. Maybe you should read a bit before you comment.

    “AGAIN, U CANT FIX STUPID”

    So you haven’t read those studies and yet choose to comment? As I noted before, your comment re stupidity leads us back to you.

  84. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 7:12 PM

    groombar, again your own stupidity leads right back to you and brings out your perosnal agenda front and center, YOU dont want to pay.

    Proof, vikings have had 12 years of consecutive sellouts, a great fan base!! History: the vikings have hall-of -famers, pro bowlers, roy’s, yes no super bowl wins and yes not the history of the packers, gues what? thats 90% of the NFL dumba__!!! YOU keep comparing vikings side by side with pack, U CANT DO THAT!! Packers have been around 2 times longer, % wise vikings have been more successful in their short time but i know u would never admit that!!!!

    Bottom line is U ONLY CARE BOUT U & YOUR TAX DOLLARS

    You dont like the vikings, thats fine, BUT DO NOT SAY THE TEAM HAS NO HISTORY EVER!! PURPLE PEOPLE EATERS, BUD GRANT, AD, FOREMAN, RANDY MOSS, many have not produced championships, BUT THERE IS HISTORY.

    how old are you, 20? oh, tell your family u have no history also, see what they think bout that!!!

  85. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 7:26 PM

    @ reacon, correct bout what franchise said……….well that is if u can read

    which means stupidity question returns to u…mmmm, oh, i get it, sorry ur just to stupid to understand or think beyond urself, sorry i apoligize, did not realize you were stupid & ignorant

  86. goombar2 says: May 29, 2011 8:22 PM

    I wouldn’t want to see detroit kicked out of division. I wouldn’t want to see chicago kicked out either. And I don’t want to see the vikings leave either.

    But the vikes aren’t making money. Those supposed “sell outs” for 12 years are because of last minute buy outs by companies that turned around and gave the tickets away (or threw them in the garbage) so there wouldn’t be blackouts.

    Of course I wouldn’t compare the vikes to the Packers, that’s absurd… But how about the Saints? Or the Cowboys? How do you suppose they measure up to those powerhouses? Try not at all… Here’s what Jerry Jones has to say:

    “Right now, we are subsidizing this market,” Jones said. “It’s unthinkable to think that the market you’ve got here (Minnesota), with 3.5 million people, and have teams like Kansas City and Green Bay subsidizing this market. That will stop. That’s going to stop. That’s called revenue sharing. That’s on its way out.”

    In what language do you understand? I’ll say it again, I don’t want to pay for YOUR entertainment. Pay for it YOURSELF. And if you vike fans can’t then you don’t deserve it…

    That’s not mean. I’d like to drive a Ferrari F-1 race car around. But asking you to pay for it is right?

    The answer to that isn’t for me to say to you, well, you must not like well made fast race cars. No, that’s probably not the case at all. It’s just foolishness for lots of people to pay for the entertainment of a few. Especially now when we’re 5 billion in debt…

    And I love the way you ended this argument… Now my age matters, I’m too immature! I guess the idiotic, you’re not Minnesota enough failed, I haven’t done enough for my community, then I want my community to suffer arguments all failed why not try to claim I’m young and foolish… Because I’m not impulsive like you! Priceless, just priceless!

  87. recon163 says: May 29, 2011 8:58 PM

    @ vikefan:

    ” . . .correct bout what franchise said……….well that is if u can read. . .”

    Oh I am pretty sure I can read I am just wondering if you have any thoughts beyond what franchise said.

    “which means stupidity question returns to u…mmmm, oh, i get it, sorry ur just to stupid to understand or think beyond urself, sorry i apoligize, did not realize you were stupid & ignorant ”

    Guess not. Must be hard to need others to to think for you……

  88. vikefan says: May 29, 2011 9:46 PM

    I was referring to your age as HISTORY OF TIME which you obviuosly could not figure out. I never said you were immature. You could be 40 or 50, i was merely, stating IF you were 20, your 20 years of age would be important history for your family, like 50 is for the VIkings.

    Sh-t dude really, u really need to understand the written word, NOT something that u think is implied.

    And with your logic (or true lack thereof), this state (or any state for that matter) would never get a new stadium cause the general public would NEVER vote for a tax increase (cept Dallas of course, they are the only logical ones at this point), the wild would not exist if it was not for former mayor getting stadium built, twins would still be at dumpy dome (or gone), not in a beautiful open air stadium, let the wolves go, dont renovate target center. Then the lynx are gone too. Who needs professional sports, well really its not a need, ITS AN AWESOME BONUS FOR A WONDERFUL LIFE IN A WELL ROUNDED COMMUNITY.

    I have NEVER claimed u r dumb, immature, whatever, ONLY narrowminded. And yes, i guess i am impulsive if it means doing the same thing every Vikings football game for 50 years, but most normal people call that history!!!

  89. brewdogg says: May 30, 2011 12:29 AM

    Okay, so you say why should those who don’t want the Vikings around have to pay for them…. If that is the way your mind is wired, then tell me why only Vikings fans should have to pay for something that benefits everyone in the state? Maybe next we should do a metro-area gas tax that will be used to fix roads statewide.

    But you’r right, it’s your money, and you should get to decide what it is spent on. Did you know your money is being used to give people free child care, even though they don’t have jobs? Did you know that your money is being given out in vouchers to people with autistic and Down’s adults living at home with them, so that they can be taken to go bowling and out to movies by people who are paid by state-funded agencies? Your money is keeping open the doors of a playhouse in International Falls. Your money is allowing countless businesses to not have to pay taxes.

    Guess what else your money is being spent on…. The elected officials who are saying that giving the Vikings this money is worth it. Bet that pisses you off…..

    Here’s what it keeps coming back to for me. The elected officials have access to the requisite financial information. Not speculative data, but years of financial history. And despite polls like you have dug up, they are still leaning towards going ahead and giving them the money. Why would they do that? They are running the risk of not getting re-elected. Why would they do that for something that will be detrimental to the state?

    Sorry, no amount of studies that dismiss all fan spending as discretionary income that would be spent in the area anyway (which is a ridiculous argument….all you have to do is look at the hotel occupancy figures for home games versus away games to see how many people are coming from far enough away that their spending would not be used in the same area) and assume that no players pay income tax and a business that makes $250 million doesn’t contribute anything will convince me that these people are risking their political careers on a venture that will cost the state millions.

  90. goombar2 says: May 30, 2011 1:04 AM

    I think the town would have come around for the Twins, this is more a baseball town. I saw a lot of emotions when I went to the ballpark the other night. The polls also support that. Sure, sometimes politicians have to go against knee jerk reactions.

    But I just don’t see the viking stadium deal as knee jerk. The vikes have been around for 50 years. Dallas got the support, New Orleans has support… The vikes just don’t have their fan base.

    The idea of throwing this stadium up in Arden Hills will not get a Super Bowl. Places like Jacksonville and San Diego were notorious as bad spots for a SB because the stadiums aren’t centrally located. If you’re able to get away from the static of the last seating snafu in Dallas, there is major disappointment in the location of that stadium too. Add to the fact that it’s in a cold climate, I can guarantee you Arden Hills would never get a SB and it’s unlikely a final 4 too.

    Listen about how everyone will rave about Lucas Stadium this year and how it was a blast because it was centrally located with lots of cool stuff to do.

  91. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 10:27 AM

    To say this is knee jerk is slightly off base. The current proposal maybe slightly knee jerk, but the Vikings have had 2 owners asking for a new stadium for over 6 years, THEY knew this time was coming. IT IS THE STATE AND STATE ONLY that has failed to make a move, so if thats your argument you can blame pawlenty and the rest of legislatures for failing to even think bout it in las 8 years for the state. It is not the vikings fault the state has failed to show up and deal with it properly with a decent timeline of 2 or 3 years when the state completely fails to acknowledge the issue.

    In your opinion that only successful teams deserve new stadiums? Why doesnt the NFL just dissolve every team that has not won the super bowl, and lets continue with that shall we? Only let smart kids go to school, only let talented kids use respecitve talents in sports, music, theatre, drama, etc, only let good drivers buy vehicles & use roads? again you argument just doesn t make sense. If there is someone out there that can afford an nfl team and stadium, they should be allowed to have it, and if residents want to help pay, we can.

    Your Jerry Jones revenue sharing statement is the very issue AGAIN the vikings need a new stadium. Metrodome is not PROFITABLE in todays NFL market. Think about the electronics age with computers and phones alone. 1985 built is a dinasaur in any building view thses days unless it has been retrofitted. There is NO parking around the dome cpet for parking garages which u cannot tailgate in and all lead to the same 2 roads out of MLPS which is ridiclously congested by traffic lights which the city fails to take care of with traffic cops. Arden Hills may not have more roads, but would have less lights and EASIER FLOW. The dome only has 1 level of suites which is very outdated for what todays market demands are. Every other team’s revenue is easily better because of owned parking and more general seating and suites. This is not rocket science. If Jerry Jones does not want revenue sharing to help support the teams like Vikings, maybe he would be smarter to give Zygi a loan, get stadium issue resolved faster, and make a fast buck off the Vikings in interest.

    You can claim the Twins deserved their stadium cause the fan base supports it NOW and have a bigger fan base than the Vikings, THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!! If you take any poll in MN or upper midwest and ask someone their favorite team, it has been the Vikings for the last 30 years, may be close with twins, but the Vikings do own this market.

    And for y0u to worry bout location, what do you care if you hate the Vikings and dont go to their games.

  92. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 10:39 AM

    Groombar, i will expand on a previous thought for u

    the vikings sell psl’s, parking psl’s, whatever to help pay for stadium instead of states portion. in return, since the state did not help pay for it, the vikings decide not to put on tv cause taxpayers did not want to help so only someone with a tix can see the game. watch the entire state piss and moan over that even though U do not care. This is the very reason the state needs to help pitch in so the whole state & upper midwest is not blacked out from games. if the state does not want to help pay, there is no reason to broadcast the games throughout the state since residents did not care bout vikings in first place. Watch an uproar happen then!! Sorry dude, i know u hatem but there is a lot more to life than u and what u like and hate, regardless if you like it or not.

  93. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 10:59 AM

    Recon:
    “I did read it and take it with a shaker full of salt.”

    I’ll believe my actual numbers compared to a 11 year old study on economic studies on stadiums.

    I’ll also take you more seriously if you actually knew the correct name of our former Governor. The guy who put light rail into Minneapolis for the sole purpose of easy accessability for the Dome. I wonder he didnt want a new stadium. Hmmmm.

    Goombar: “this is more a baseball town.”

    If you believe that, your opinion really doesnt matter anymore.

    For both of you:

    Neither of you have any grasp on the well being of Minnesota. The building of Target Field and The X have completely revitalized both downtown districts of Minneapolis/St Paul. Its proven the Vikings draw in millions of out of state income into the metro.

    When the stadium is built, the Super Bowl will be here withing 5-7 years. Its a given. Cold weather isnt an issue (last I checked, NY got one, without a roof).
    If its in Arden Hills, doesnt matter. AH is less than 10 miles from the Dome, AND, if you have been to the Dome, its not downtown, and nothing is around it (last I checked, the SB was here in ’91).
    It will be here, and will bring over $200 million to the state.

    The Vikings alone bring the state $198 mill annually, and the revenue of other events at a new stadium is projected at another $140 (the Dome numbers are at $330 mill in revenue now).

    With just that, it blows any 11 year old study that says building a stadium isn’t economically sound out of the water.

  94. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 11:06 AM

    Hmmmm…..

    “Guess what else your money is being spent on…. The elected officials who are saying that giving the Vikings this money is worth it. Bet that pisses you off…..Here’s what it keeps coming back to for me. The elected officials have access to the requisite financial information. Not speculative data, but years of financial history. And despite polls like you have dug up, they are still leaning towards going ahead and giving them the money. Why would they do that? They are running the risk of not getting re-elected. Why would they do that for something that will be detrimental to the state?”

    Interesting. One would think that with all those supposed years of historical financial data showing what a great benefit a new stadium is, they would be rushing out to make a new stadium deal. But they are not.

    Maybe the opposite is true, maybe they know that it isn’t the great deal many make it out to be and they are hesitant to lose their jobs for funding something that benefits few.

  95. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 11:12 AM

    I’ll also point out the biggest problem the state has, and how building a stadium helps vs losing the franchise.

    JOBS

    1. This project will support 13,000 full and part-time jobs, including 7,500 construction jobs, during the three year construction period.

    2.The stadium will require over 4.2 million work hours, including 900,000 in the first 12 months.

    3.According to Mortenson Construction, nearly $300 million of the overall project costs are wages for construction workers.

    4. 95% of the total materials and labor costs is expected to go to local trades people in Minnesota.

    5. Operation of the new stadium will support 3,400 full and parttime jobs with over $100 million in personal earnings.

    Easing down our 9% unemployment rate, keeping upwards of $250 million in state tax dollars in the state is a no brainer.

    As far as taxpayers are concerned, I pay for theatres, museums, bridges, roads, etc.. I never use or even know of some, but I do pay for them, because I understand the fact that some are needed, and some just make living here that much better.

  96. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 11:25 AM

    @ therealfranchise:

    “I’ll believe my actual numbers compared to a 11 year old study on economic studies on stadiums.”

    Your call as I mentioned before. The factors of the study remain the same.

    “I’ll also take you more seriously if you actually knew the correct name of our former Governor.”

    Don’t think I mentioned anyone’s name at all. I will take you more seriously if you actually knew who wrote what.

    As for your Super Bowl note, you are speculating at best. Unless you are Miami or New Orleans you can’t guarantee you will get one.

  97. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 12:50 PM

    @ therealfranchise:

    “1. This project will support 13,000 full and part-time jobs, including 7,500 construction jobs, during the three year construction period.

    3.According to Mortenson Construction, nearly $300 million of the overall project costs are wages for construction workers.

    4. 95% of the total materials and labor costs is expected to go to local trades people in Minnesota.

    5. Operation of the new stadium will support 3,400 full and parttime jobs with over $100 million in personal earnings.

    Easing down our 9% unemployment rate, keeping upwards of $250 million in state tax dollars in the state is a no brainer.”

    Would these numbers be the same if Zygi was building his own stadium? So are you arguing for a new stadium or a taxpayer funded one?

    If you are arguing for a new stadium than those numbers are great. If you arguing for a taxpayer funded one, than a significant portion of that $300 million in wages is coming from the taxpayers. Aren’t you arguing to take $300 million from a greater group to give to a smaller group? I think the greater group has a right to question and oppose the project if they see fit.

    I mean if the goal is to bring down the unemployment rate, why not use that $600 million of public investment on projects that are beneficial for all, not just the 65k that attend games and the Vikings organization?

    “As far as taxpayers are concerned, I pay for theatres, museums, bridges, roads, etc.. I never use or even know of some, but I do pay for them, because I understand the fact that some are needed, and some just make living here that much better.”

    The needed ones you should pay for, so those can come out of your equation.

    The nice to haves, well that is up to you via the legislature or direct referendum.

    If your argument is job creation then I think there are many other things that $600 million dollars of public investment could do much better than a stadium.

  98. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 1:01 PM

    for such a rich baseball fanbase for the twins, yeah it was a real standing room only crowd for a free memorial service, the crowds were unbeleiveable in that 40,000 seat stadium, oh wait, only 3,000 or show showed up, great fanbase to honor a fallen hero and hall of famer. Think more showed up for former Vikings Korey Stringers body viewing after he passed than what showed up for Harmon Kilebrew memorial service. BTW, do you have kids groombar? How many things do u dislike that they enjoy? Sorry kids, cant go to vikings game, daddy voted against them 10 years ago and they left town. I know u dont like baseball or hockey son, but thats all that is left cause daddy did not want to help rich owner build new stadium, sorry to see u suffer son.

  99. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 1:04 PM

    @ therealfranchise:

    Rather than post the numbers you noted, you should have just linked to the Vikings website where you got them.

    I am pretty sure the Vikings are impartial about getting a new stadium…..aren’t they?

  100. goombar2 says: May 30, 2011 1:56 PM

    None of your metaphors hold water and neither does your argument. A kids IQ has a lot to do with where we place him and what classes he takes and that starts from an early age. Folks that aren’t good drivers tend to have accidents and DUIs, guess what? Government fines them and insurance companies raise their rates and if they keep it up the government does take driver’s licenses away. And the NFL doesn’t just award frnachises to folks that can afford them! Where do you come up with this stuff?

    And who cares if the study is 11 years ago? Especially when owners are claiming there’s less money to be had and revenue sharing might well be on it’s way out. You don’t think they didn’t study this? If you read the report you’d see those working on it were well aware of when the lease was coming up and the study wasn’t done in a vacuum. And the numbers you’re using a projected ones too! Therefore I could as easily counter with, well you can’t tell the future so they’re all worthless.

    But the numbers you’re using are like comparing net and gross. What does the city net? That’s what Gov.s study wanted to see and it isn’t worth mentioning. This is why they don’t want this study shown or duplicated. All they want to do is impress folks with big numbers and hope nobody thinks about them. Obviously they got you to not think too much about it.

    And you can’t guarantee a Super Bowl with an Arden Hills site. And it’s not 10 minutes from the points you claim. Go to google maps and and type in the locations… They say 23min and I will tell you on a sporting event day… Try hours – I LIVE HERE! Lie to someone else, not a local. And I’ve said those times from day one! From the airport? 33 minutes… But during peak times it’s a traffic jam from hell! I drive these roads!

    Comparing Arden Hills to New York would be as unfair as me comparing GB to the vikes. New Meadowlands has lots of access to the site, including a rail system. Arden will not now or ever… New York is a huge market and east coast city… Minneapolis is the midwest.

    But let’s talk about how great that Super Bowl was, shall we?

    The attendance mark of 63,130 was second lowest only to the first Super Bowl’s attendance of 61,946, and the Metrodome was the smallest stadium to ever host the Super Bowl. To date, this is the northernmost Super Bowl ever played. http://football.about.com/od/histo2/a/SBattendance.htm

    So let me get this straight… The vikes have problems selling out the metrodump so a smart move would be to… Build BIGGER!!!! Ha ha ha! Oh my gosh! Are you seriously typing this from an mental health asylum?!?!? After Jared Allen begged BEGGED for fans to show up! You guys even got extensions from the NFL! There is NO waiting list currently!

    I know there are fans of the vikings, I readily admit that. I might not be able to comprehend why… But I know they exist and watching the team leave hurts, but it’s just not profitable and in the future it might be even less profitable. That would require even more taxpayer bail outs… And why? Because a fan base that isn’t even big enough to sell out a stadium of 61,000 will be sad? Boo hoo!

    That’s life, and this isn’t necessary. Be different if we were talking a hospital or something. The vikes haven’t even been that good really…

  101. goombar2 says: May 30, 2011 2:12 PM

    I don’t know what you’re talking about in regards to Killebrew’s memorial service. I have no dog in this fight as I’m not a Twins fan in the least, I got comp tickets and thought taking my kid to the ball park was a good American tradition.

    But what I saw, with my own lying eyes, was a stadium of twins fans some in tears, many with items signed by this guy. Was every seat taken, no, but the VAST MAJORITY were. All I can say is that you obviously weren’t there.

    And I am happily married and my boy is almost always at my side. I tried to take him to a Wild game, but our seats weren’t “good”. They we I guess the equivelent of luxury box on a stool seating… Wasn’t a good fit. And yeah I watch plenty of crap for him, but what I do for family is different than what I do for community. That’s life, and comparing the two is pointless.

  102. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 2:22 PM

    recon163 says:
    May 30, 2011 1:04 PM
    @ therealfranchise:

    Rather than post the numbers you noted, you should have just linked to the Vikings website where you got them.

    I am pretty sure the Vikings are impartial about getting a new stadium…..aren’t they?

    My numbers are not from the Vikings, but you can think that if it makes you happy. They are listed in both newspaper publications websites here in MN. You seem like a half-smart person, its called Google.

    ===================================

    “Would these numbers be the same if Zygi was building his own stadium? So are you arguing for a new stadium or a taxpayer funded one?”

    Yep, but last I checked, if Wilf builds his own stadium, he determines who does construction, labor, etc.. My bet would be if it were to play out that way, his buddies back east would get ALOT of work.

    I’ll also remind you that the state didnt throw any money at the Metrodome, yet collect billions in tax dollars.

    Can I get my cut of that?

    Facts are facts. Letting the team go lets more money walk out of the state than the state would have to contribute, PERIOD.

  103. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 4:27 PM

    @ therealfranchise:

    “My numbers are not from the Vikings, but you can think that if it makes you happy. They are listed in both newspaper publications websites here in MN. You seem like a half-smart person, its called Google.”

    And here is the Vikings website with your numbers:
    www. vikings. com/ assets/docs/ quick-hits-051411.pdf

    or here:

    www. vikings.com/ stadium/ new-stadium/economic-impact.html

    So either the papers are quoting the Vikings or the Vikings are quoting the papers. But no surprise here that the Vikings would want these numbers posted as they offer a rosy picture for all lemmings to latch on to.

    You seem like a quarter smart person, can you use the above supplied addresses?

  104. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 5:09 PM

    And yeah I watch plenty of crap for him, but what I do for family is different than what I do for community. That’s life, and comparing the two is pointless.

    ******************************************

    uh, no- support of community should be extended family, well unless ur anti social or something.

    ……and sounds like unless u get free luxury box seats somewhere you are anti-sports, which is fine as long as you are honest about it, and honest to your son bout it, “son, we dont have professional sports anymore like we used to cause people like me dont like helping upper class support new job growth and tax revenues, so now we just watch it all on tv (if its not blacked out)”

  105. brewdogg says: May 30, 2011 5:26 PM

    recon163 says:
    May 30, 2011 11:06 AM

    Interesting. One would think that with all those supposed years of historical financial data showing what a great benefit a new stadium is, they would be rushing out to make a new stadium deal. But they are not.

    Maybe the opposite is true, maybe they know that it isn’t the great deal many make it out to be and they are hesitant to lose their jobs for funding something that benefits few.
    —————————————–

    So what exactly are you saying? If it was a losing venture, and the public didn’t want it, then wouldn’t they just say no and be done with it? Why would they even debate it? What exactly, if you are correct and the team does not contribute enough to the state to warrant the money they are asking, are they debating? If you can come up with a logical answer to that, then maybe we can give a little credibility to your contention.

  106. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 5:39 PM

    @ vikefan:

    “uh, no- support of community should be extended family, well unless ur anti social or something.”

    Got it…..the community, your extended family should be paying so the you can be a Vikings fan. Much clearer now…..

  107. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 7:30 PM

    Goombar: “Was every seat taken, no, but the VAST MAJORITY were.”

    BHAHAHAHA!!!!

    THERE WERE LESS THAN 3000 PEOPLE THERE!!!

    A vast majority of a 40k plus stadium is 3k to you?!

    I think Vikesfan hit the nail on the head with you:
    “sounds like unless u get free luxury box seats somewhere you are anti-sports”

    Every seat in The X is good. I’ve sat in every corner up top and been on the glass, there is no bad seat. Same can be said of Target field. At least you can stomach going to sporting events for your kids though. You equal the true meaning of why Minnesotans get a “fair-weather fan” tag.

    Also, I have driven from the Dome to Bethel University in less than 15 minutes. My point is that AH is not in the middle of nowhere. People who travel from out of state are still going to stay not only in Minnesota, but more than likely still in the Minneapolis area, or even St Paul, since AH is relatively close to in between both cities.

    Bitch all you want about paying for a stadium, but realize the cost of said stadium has gone up (and will continue to) $50 million every year it gets passed up. It will also cost ALOT more if the Vikings leave, and another team shows up down the road.

    Since your a “local” you should already know that.

  108. recon163 says: May 30, 2011 7:57 PM

    @brewdogg:

    “So what exactly are you saying?”

    I am offering an alternative to your scenario. You state the elected officials know it is a great deal and want it. I note that they aren’t exactly beating down doors to take the ‘great’ deal they have been offered.

    “If it was a losing venture, and the public didn’t want it, then wouldn’t they just say no and be done with it? Why would they even debate it?”

    So there should be no debate? I wonder how a referendum would end up? What do opinion polls show? Would you be against a popular vote?

    “What exactly, if you are correct and the team does not contribute enough to the state to warrant the money they are asking, are they debating?”

    I could ask you a similar question: If a stadium is such a great economic engine as you maintain then why are they debating? They should take the deal as offered, no debate necessary.

    “If you can come up with a logical answer to that, then maybe we can give a little credibility to your contention.”

    And your contention that it is a great deal is credible?

    My contention is much more credible than yours. The proof is in the fact that no stadium deal is in place. As I noted before it is such a great deal as you maintain then it should have over long ago. You maintain it is a great deal and yet we see the people who will be held accountable are much more circumspect than you.

    Maybe it isn’t the great deal you make it out to be.

  109. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 8:18 PM

    On another website on the same topic, someone posed a funny, yet interesting question.

    “So the Vikings bring in millions of dollars of tax money yearly. If they leave, does that mean the state gets to make more cuts to the budget? The same one they helped cripple?”

    Touche.

  110. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 8:35 PM

    Recon: “My contention is much more credible than yours. The proof is in the fact that no stadium deal is in place. As I noted before it is such a great deal as you maintain then it should have over long ago.”

    Lets put it into a little perspective for you.

    2 new stadiums have been built in the last couple of years.

    The budget is an absolute mess, even though that has been the excuse the last 7 years.

    Even though Tim Pawlenty has single handedly driven this state into the trouble we are in, he refused the thought of a Vikings stadium, no matter what. Now we have a Governor who has stated he will sign a bill that hits his desk.

    Its been shown time and time again that letting the team leave will ultimately cost the state more in tax money lost than what their share of the stadium would be.

    Sorry you cant grasp that.

  111. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 8:38 PM

    I’ll also point out that if the state didnt drag their knuckles and got this bill past 7 years ago, their share would be paid for already.

  112. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 9:39 PM

    “uh, no- support of community should be extended family, well unless ur anti social or something.”

    Got it…..the community, your extended family should be paying so the you can be a Vikings fan. Much clearer now…..

    ****************************************

    aint any different than paying taxes when u dont have kids in school, paying for building a YMCA that i dont use, paying for welfare that i dont get, paying for social security that i will never see, etc., and telling me 1 thing is more essential than another is arbitrary just as all of u that claim the revenue that the team brings to the state is.

  113. vikefan says: May 30, 2011 10:01 PM

    franchise, i am stopping with these 2 jokers. groombar complains he has to “sit through” events he takes his son to that arn’t good enuff seats. recon seems hell bent purely on numbers as if what he reads is engraved in stone and may never be altered (haha, good luck with that).

    i have season tix in upper deck of endzone for vikings for 15 years and love it!! 1 son loves baseball and we enjoy going to games for HIM. Another son loves the arts, museums, and plays and we happily go to those events for him. This makes us a better well rounded society and gives us a chance to enjoy other things as a family. We even incorporate some kind of learning into all our events, like a baseball game, my son who is not even in kindergarten yet is learning balls, strikes, home runs, stikeouts, runs, etc all while learning his numbers. It is an awesome fun way to help kids learn in a very fun environment.

    Some morons just fail to understand even though money is required, some things are not ALL about money!!!!! Community pride and spirit can be awesome if u choose to become involved.

    Groombar seriously, just get the F-ck out of MN if you dont like the vikings or bill. Its one thing to not like something but to listen to your constant bs and blowing smoke up everyone elss’s as_ bout it is extremely pathetic. U even say yourself you deal with your son like its such a bad thing to do something for him that you dont like, and god forbid with average man seats, NOT FREE LUXURY BOX. Guess what, my wife gets free luxury box 2-3 times/month and I always let her take one of our sons instead cause i know they love it but i dont go badmouthing the Twins!! All teams are great for the community. Sooner or later u gonna be bitchin bout the wolves too,, arnt ya?!!

    Im done, groombar and recon, move to where someone cares bout ur bs, where u can have lower taxes since thats all u care bout, montana, idaho, vermont?

  114. brewdogg says: May 30, 2011 10:04 PM

    Okay recon, let’s slow this down for you…..

    According to goombar’s poll, 75% of Minnesotans don’t want public financing for the stadium. That means the politicians should say no.

    If the figures available to them show that the proposed state contribution would be substantially more than what the franchise contributes to the state, like you and the rest of the Viking haters on here say, that means the politicians should say no.

    So if the public opinion and the figures both point to no, then why are they still considering the proposal? So once again, the question is…..

    Why would these politicians risk their political careers by going against public opinion?

    The only logical conclusion is that they feel they are doing what is best for the state. And if that is the case, then they must have information that shows them that the Vikings do contribute a substantial amount of revenue to the state.

    But to answer your question, no, I would not be against a popular vote. But I would want it properly worded.

    *********************************
    O Yes, I approve of (these measures) to raise $300 million to contribute to a new Vikings stadium

    O No, I don’t approve public funding, understanding that the loss of the Vikings franchise will likely ensue, and that xxxxx amount of dollars will be lost in direct taxes from Vikings staff and players, as well as potentially xxxxx amount of dollars lost in indirect spending (calculated by averaging hotel, restaurant, and gas purchases in the metro area on home weekends as opposed to away weekends), which will need to be covered either by cutting spending or raising taxes
    *********************************

    I am absolutely in favor of public vote, if the public is given all the information they need to make an educated decision. If you are right, and it will be a net loss for the state, than the importance of the Vikings franchise to the public should be the deciding vote. But to simply ask people if they want to pay for a new stadium or not does not tell the whole story. Tell the whole story, and then see what people say.

  115. brewdogg says: May 30, 2011 10:32 PM

    Ah yes, I almost forgot…..

    O I also understand that xxxxx amount of dollars will need to be spent to maintain and renovate the Metrodome so that it can continue hosting the non-football events that it currently does, and which will be hosted in the new stadium in the future, which brings in xxxxx amount of dollars.

    Let’s not forget, ALL the facts…..

  116. therealfranchise says: May 30, 2011 11:27 PM

    $25 million toward fixing the Dome. Better yet, there are talks up upgrading the Dome (even after the Vikes lease ends) for the tune of $80 million.

    Now THAT is a waste of money.

  117. goombar2 says: May 30, 2011 11:28 PM

    There’s no proof the state will lose anything. Prove it! Stop saying lies.

    The earth is square. The earth is square. Square is the earth… Guess what, it don’t make it true! Stop peeing on my leg and telling me it’s raining! If what you are saying is true then answer why California even has taxes with all the pro sports teams out there! Instead, taxes are through the roof and AEG won’t dare go to taxpayers. That’s so stupid!

    So anyone from the community can just walk up and take your car for a spin? Some how I think you guys are full of crap! A person does things for their family the just simply wont do for strangers – because you know family and you empathize more. That’s just human.

    Like I said, I was at the 5/23/11 game between the Mariners and Twins. Before the start of the game they had a half hour – hour tribute to Killebrew. Att: 37,498.

    http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2011_05_23_seamlb_minmlb_1&mode=wrap&c_id=mlb

    Hmmm… 40,000 seats stadium, 37,498… Yeah, I’d say it was pretty much how I described it…

    I notice this though… Beyond all the crap you guys spew… You don’t want to answer the tough questions.

    Like if the vikes don’t have a waiting list and need corporate help to sell out a stadium that hold 61,000 folks for a PLAYOFF GAME, how adding more seats is going to work? Anytime you wanna answer that?

    Or the fact that the last time there was a Super Bowl, it had the second lowest attendance in Super Bowl history… But don’t worry, you guys are assured of another SB! Cause you’ll add MORE SEATS! Ha ha ha!

    And as far as my love of sports, I love ‘em. But why pay for tickets when they are given to me? I’m sure you guys would turn down free tickets! Ha ha ha! You guys are the reason the vikes won’t do PSLs! No way you guys pony up with the money! And no, I have no interest in socialism for the wealthy, they got theirs and they need to act responsible – not like pigs.

    And Ziggy will just hire guys from out east? Yeah, take a look at what union scale is out east, because that’s what he’d have to pay them! I swear you guys are either shills or think the rest of us are complete morons…

  118. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 12:02 AM

    Vikefan is nothing more than a psychopath. Comparing money to sustain the most vulnerable of people – children through education and welfare programs to you losing the vikings? I feel for your children and worry about their safety!

    And there has yet to be any support from any politician. Where a bill? Bueller? Bueller?

    There’s a governor walking around now talking about 300 mil, only if it passes a teaparty legislature… Wow! He’s really going to bat here folks, putting his career on the line! The mayor of St. Paul is like, don’t expect me to be a part of this! What politician is supporting this?

    And how about this on that ballot with a little more truth:

    Yes: I fully support welfare for billionaires! There is absolutely no proof this stadium will improve the economy, no proof it has anything to do with expanding tax bases or decreasing them (as we’ve already as a state studied this), will have to be built to accommodate more people even though we can bearly sell out the existing stadium so maybe the NFL will consider it as a site for a SB, but most likely will fail due to infrastructure problems!

    No: Welfare for rich folks is wrong when we already have budget problems. Spending our grand-kids’ money on a failed franchise that can barely support itself now and with it’s future looking even worse, it’s a bad investment. Let them raise the money through PSLs like everyone else.

    Or we can stop the nonsense with ballots and believe the people of this state already understand and have thought deeply about their vote and have an up or down vote on this.

    I guess I’m really surprised at the vitriol and hate from viking fans toward all Minnesotans and anyone that has a different opinion. Deep down you think the rest of us need a reminder to breath as we’d be too stupid to remember to breath. All the personal pot shots I’ve taken. I guess it just goes to show the truth about what they say about the vike franchise and the fans they sell their product to!

  119. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 1:10 AM

    Oh, and by the way, those fancy numbers came from Mortenson Construction… You know, the guys who plan on building the stadium! No dog in this fight! Not like they’ll make a dime off it!

    You guys a shills for this company!

  120. vikefan says: May 31, 2011 11:33 AM

    If you are referring to a psychopath as someone that enjoys supporting the community by voting yes to build a new YMCA, keep current school levies to avoid laying teachers off, and supports the arts in every way including sports, drama, theatre, & museums, then yes I am and very proud of it. But maybe you need a little learning curve, cause dont think that is the proper definition in the library.

    goombar, u are the prototypical michelle bachman wannabe. DONT RAISE MY TAXES, but ill be the first in line for anything when the govt bailouts or freebies start. Guess what, you already paid for those freebies idiot.

  121. brewdogg says: May 31, 2011 2:24 PM

    So, let me get this straight….

    One side of this argument says that logic concludes that the Vikings franchise and employees must pay into the state treasury, just like everyone else that lives in Minnesota and every other company that operates in Minnesota. The other side sites studies that find no significant ADDITIONAL revenue will be generated by the building of a new stadium over the old one, and conclude that it proves the Vikings generate no state income whatsoever.

    One side is sticking to just the financial side of the argument, since what we are discussing is stadium financing and whether the franchise is worth the price tag. The other side brings up on-field struggles, thinking that it somehow strengthens their interpretation of the financial impact of the franchise on the state.

    One side is willing to let the elected officials make the decision they feel is best for the state. The other side wants a public referendum. And when the idea of actually including facts and figures about the impact of the franchise departing the state are suggested for the public to consider, come back with a reworded referendum proposal filled with hate-filled rhetoric.

    It seems to me that one side is much more comfortable with the viability of their stance.

    But let’s get on to these tough questions that you want answered…. Let’s see…..

    Well, generally new stadiums bring increased attendance. I’d site figures from other franchises, but you would just say that Vikings fans are all fair-wheather fans and wouldn’t come out, so we’ll stick with the Minnesotans and say that Target Field thus far is bringing in 10,000 more fans per game than the Metrodome did. Why should we expect less when the Vikings move out of the same building?

    How many people do you think can be put into a 61,000 seat dome? What is your argument here? That the Metrodome didn’t host as many fans as the 90,000+ Rose Bowl? How many seats is Zygi planning on building? That will be about how many fans show up. Or are you going to tell me that a Super Bowl will not sell out because it’s in Minnesota?

    Now answer my hard question…. If the polls show that the public doesn’t want it, and the figures show that it isn’t worth it, why don’t they just say no and be done with it? If it is financially in the best interests of the state and politically in the best interests of the congressmen to refuse to use public funding for the stadium, what could they possibly have to discuss?

  122. brewdogg says: May 31, 2011 2:29 PM

    Oh, BTW, I figured how to trim $2 billion off the state budget. If we use the information available here….
    http://www.eredux.com/states/state_gov.php?id=1131
    http://www.eredux.com/states/state_gov.php?id=1128
    ….and apply the same percentage of total state revenue to education as Wisconsin does, then we have enough money after one year to build 2 of these stadiums!!!

    So how about the residents of the more populous state with the greater amount of tax revenue and lesser amount of revenue for education not tell us to take care of our children’s educational needs…. Unless, of course, you want Dahmer to preach the Ten Commandments at you.

  123. vikefan says: May 31, 2011 3:23 PM

    Well uh duh, metrodome hols 62,000 based on sold out game, say 40% come from out of state. Say they travel by groups of 4 give or take. That is over 6,000 hotel rooms, evening meals nite b4, breakfast next morning, gassing up vehicles (give or take the numbers) that would not be spent if there was no game. This is all ticket sales only. Not even considering visiting team/home team dollars spent on hotel rooms, team meals, bus services. Is it enuff to cover cost of bonds, well who really knows till its all said and done.

    Should the public pay for what 45,000 season ticket holders want? Well IF you ever want to go to a future game yes, and BTW for the umteenth time, this happened for Target Field, musuems, and so on and you cannot put a price on quality of life with them in your backyard.

    You get so worked up bout stats & reports, get what? there is a lot more to life than just info on paper that is immeasurable. Beating cowboys in playoffs, last second throw by favre, favre breaking touchdown record vs vikings. Its about experiences!! but i understand if ur a nuthole and dont do anything that u cannot grasp that.

    Have u shopped at the followning in the last 5 years? best buy, cabelas, pillsbury products, 3m? THEY ALL have received some kind of tax break in the last 5 years, its not adding taxes but same effect, they dont have to pay em so it widens the state gap!!

    Again ur side FAILS TO COMPREHEND THE CONCEPT OF BIG PICTURE. Community, experiences, things to do, enjoyment. If you dont like the Vikings, thats fine. But you cannot claim AT ALL that is the majority vote based on a STar Tribune 800 person poll when there is 5 million in the state……..and if it is the majority strangely, then u better hope your elected leaders have a referendum which again was not done for TWINS OR WILD, so Vikings dont need it either. GOOD LUCK VIKINGS HATERS, UR GONNA NEED IT

  124. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 6:11 PM

    The question of why these politicians are mulling the idea has been answered…. They aren’t!!!! There’s no bill on the table, there’s no support. The real question should be, why does this get press when there’s no bill and no support.

    “The vast majority of Ramsey County legislators don’t support it,” said Rep. Mindy Greiling, DFL-Roseville. “They’re smoking up the wrong pipe. The public is not for this if you poll them, and if they are they want it to be as cheap as possible.”

    Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/article/Twin-Cities-suburb-pitches-new-Vikings-stadium-1373577.php#ixzz1NyD6F5XU

    Of the county’s 22 state representatives and senators, 18 responded to a Pioneer Press survey asking whether they supported the current county-Vikings proposal. … Only one, freshman Sen. John Harrington, DFL-St. Paul, supported it, although Rep. Tim Mahoney, DFL-St. Paul, said he’s “strongly considering it.” Two lawmakers said they hadn’t decided. Fourteen said they oppose it, with many responding via email with capital letters: “NO.” http://www.twincities.com/ci_18053937

    Gov. Dayton? He basically questions what the heck is in it for Arden Hills!

    So your whole argument is bunk!

    Why are individual politicians trying to backroom deal this through might be a good question. That’s easy to answer, Mortenson Construction gives a lot to politicians and it’s not just so the politicians can do good for the public. Do you even realize, in an industry where their competitors are either barely operating in the black and many in the red, Mortenson is seeing huge profits! No wonder, they give tons of cash to Minnesota politicians!

    As far as attendance going up for the Twins, you really think that’s a good comparison? In baseball if the Twins don’t have a sell out it’s still aired. The reason they wanted out of the MetroDump and their own specific purpose stadium was that the seating for baseball games was horrible. That being said, the Dump still hold the record for attendance. Think about that, a crummy stadium and it STILL PUTS BUTTS IN SEATS! Of course it wouldn’t be a bad investment! Over the last 4 years 2.24 mil folks put their butts in MetroDump seats in a season. http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/minnatte.shtml

    And for the vikes over the same time period? 507,000! http://www.vikings.com/team/history/attendance-info.html

    See a difference in viability and cost effectiveness? Like 1.5 million of them! Yearly! You REALLY wanna compare these two? At the end the Twins ran out of seats, one’s you wouldn’t want were selling… Compared to the vikes that in a stadium MADE for football needed an extension and corporate buy out of seats.

    You talk about all your confidence in your argument… Yeah, right! So confident you’re numbers are XXXXX. I wonder why? Maybe the numbers don’t exist yet, though… Wait, you put down a link. If you follow it the say what the tax revenue of this boondoggle would be. It’s 30 million a year.

    So instead of using X’s let’s use the numbers on the board. The expected price of the stadium is 1 billion another 140 million for bare bones infrastructure.

    Ziggy and the NFL will put 400 mil in the kitty.
    Dayton say the state will pony up 300 million, but that includes the infrastructure. 160 toward the stadium.
    http://www.startribune.com/local/121992644.html

    So 400 + 160 = 560 million… Hmmm… Ramsey County is going to pick up 350 million… http://www.kare11.com/news/article/922666/391/Ramsey-County-Vikings-strike-stadium-partnership

    Still seems short of 560 mil, like about 210 million short. So I guess that’s just the tax free bond stuff of dreams… So for 600+ million dollars of public money (I put the + on for the interest of the bonds) The state will generate… Wait for it… Oh, crap I already gave it away… 30 million in tax revenue…

    So after taxing the vikes for 20 years, we’d finally have broke even on this tax deal. Just in time of course for… The new viking stadium! Ha ha ha! Geez, if you just took the 600 mil and put it in the bank at a return of 2% you’d be better off…

    Yeah, you guys really seem like the logical rational folks… And your arguments have been sooo convincing… I just wonder how you got 21% of people to buy this ponzi scheme. Oh, yeah and your argument isn’t so convincing when it has no real links to anything important. So, those two you put down brewdog – more of a waste of bandwidth than anything important. Maybe you should just stick with using X’s instead of real numbers.

    Oh, by the way, the person spear heading this is a real Minnesotan, unlike me I guess, Julie Rosen – from Colorado…

    PS… I’m not part of the Teaparty movement… Not a supporter of Michelle Bachman. Have voted only for 2 republicans in my life. I have not taken welfare or taken welfare for my son. I stay on my budget when I can, take loans for cars. I DON’T gamble… I DO NOT steal. I have no arrests. Other than wanting to keep my money, I have no other dog in this fight.

    I just don’t understand why there is a need to take my money (steal) from me so an entertainment business can be MORE profitable.

  125. vikefan says: May 31, 2011 6:42 PM

    because their not profitable right now in the dome.

    good luck on your referendum

  126. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 6:49 PM

    Goombar: “There’s no proof the state will lose anything. Prove it! Stop saying lies.”

    Its been proven to you 50 times already, but I’ll post this so even my 5 year old can understand it in hopes you may as well.

    When you have a job, you pay something called “state income tax”. From players and coaches to beer vendors and security officers. Everyone in that stadium pays it. When the Vikings are gone, so is that state income.

    Thats just one piece to it. Let men know if you would like me to teach you about property tax, merchandising tax, etc..

    By just the Vikings cut (not counting all the other events held in the Dome) that number is $20 million annually.

    Keep up now.

    By just that number alone, the state gets their $300 million back in 12 or less years.
    ___________________________________

    “Oh, and by the way, those fancy numbers came from Mortenson Construction… You know, the guys who plan on building the stadium!”

    THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!!!!!!

    The numbers are directly from the bid on building the stadium.

    Would you rather see numbers from a company from the wonderful world of Oz?

    Moron.

  127. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 6:53 PM

    Comparing attendance of 4 seasons of baseball with 80+ home games vs 4 seasons of football with 8 home games.

    What a fvcking idiot.

  128. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 7:10 PM

    “So after taxing the vikes for 20 years, we’d finally have broke even on this tax deal.”

    Since the state didnt pay a dime for the Metrodome, they actually profitted that money, not to mention all the tax revenue from the Twins, and every event held inside the Dome in those 20 years.

  129. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 8:43 PM

    Look, proof isn’t telling me a stupid nonsense story. Proof is hard facts I can look up. You link them to folks that have actually said these numbers and can be held accountable or a reporter. Just you telling me something isn’t good enough, that’s an opinion. For a guy so quick to call me a moron you seem a bit slow.

    I dunno… An accounting from a bank that’s going to give the construction company the bond would be better… But you can’t build a decent argument so I very much doubt you’d know anything about construction. And if you actually read the stuff, it’s 30 million annualy…

    So we’re going to float 600 million in free money to get 30 mil a year in taxes, and that seems like a great deal to you? How about you hand me 1 dollar bill and I give you 3 shiny quarters… See, you’ll have three and I’ll only have 1… Great deal, huh? At 2% interest over 20 years you’d get close to 200 mil.. Please tell me you don’t have a credit card and have never purchased a house.

    You’re right the baseball comparison therealfranchise, so why did brewdog want to do that? But fine if you wanna, it supports my idea that Target Field made some sense…

    The truth is, there’s only one good reason to support this boondoggle, you love the vikings… And that’s fine, but to expect me to pay for it is wrong. Use PSLs.

  130. recon163 says: May 31, 2011 8:57 PM

    @ vikefan:

    ” . . .aint any different than paying taxes when u dont have kids in school . . .”

    Equating basic education with your need to attend a Vikings game is asinine. As this is the ultimately the football fans argument en main, you want a team no matter the cost. You think everybody should chip in for your entertainment. Gotta hand it to you, at least your honest.

    ” . . .paying for social security that i will never see, etc., and telling me 1 thing is more essential than another is arbitrary just as all of u that claim the revenue that the team brings to the state is.”

    Not arbitrary at all. Studied and researched. That you don’t agree with it means little.

  131. recon163 says: May 31, 2011 9:04 PM

    @ brewdogg:

    “Okay recon, let’s slow this down for you…..”

    Slowing down your speculation still doesn’t make it true.

    “If the figures available to them show that the proposed state contribution would be substantially more than what the franchise contributes to the state, like you and the rest of the Viking haters on here say, that means the politicians should say no.”

    And they are. Has anything passed? No.

    “Why would these politicians risk their political careers by going against public opinion?”

    Oh I am sorry did they pass a bill? They didn’t? Oh so they haven’t risked anything have they?

    “The only logical conclusion is that they feel they are doing what is best for the state.”

    That is true, they are doing what is best for the state, they are questioning the bill.

    “But to answer your question, no, I would not be against a popular vote. But I would want it properly worded. . . I am absolutely in favor of public vote, if the public is given all the information they need to make an educated decision. If you are right, and it will be a net loss for the state, than the importance of the Vikings franchise to the public should be the deciding vote. But to simply ask people if they want to pay for a new stadium or not does not tell the whole story. Tell the whole story, and then see what people say.”

    That is good. And I agree it should be worded so the layman can see the net results, his/her ‘contribution’ and the anticipated revenues.

  132. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 9:09 PM

    Goombar, “Other than wanting to keep my money, I have no other dog in this fight.

    I just don’t understand why there is a need to take my money (steal) from me so an entertainment business can be MORE profitable.”

    The original bill for the stadium deal was going to limit the state’s economic roll to Ramsey and Hennepin counties via hotels, car rentals, and sales taxes.

    Dont go to games (which doesnt sound like a problem for you) buy the merchandise, or just plain stay out of downtown and Arden Hills and you wont have to worry about paying for it.

  133. recon163 says: May 31, 2011 9:10 PM

    @ therealfranchise:

    “When you have a job, you pay something called “state income tax”. From players and coaches to beer vendors and security officers. Everyone in that stadium pays it. When the Vikings are gone, so is that state income.”

    You do realize that income tax revenue has been allocated to paying for the stadium at the tune of 10%? Which means the state isn’t going to see that money and instead it will be used to pay off the bonds.

  134. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 9:17 PM

    “Since the state didnt pay a dime for the Metrodome, they actually profitted that money, not to mention all the tax revenue from the Twins, and every event held inside the Dome in those 20 years.”

    What are you talking about? Is this written by a drunk or a moron? Who do you think owns it? Who do you think built it? Ziggy? Red? Aliens?

    Who do you think Ziggy rents from? Wow, if you don’t know anything about this, why comment?

    Funny how brewdog makes a big claim about those on his side knowing all the facts yet this post clearly illustrates that’s just not the case!

    Anyway, if you want in here’s a history lesson. Hopefully it helps.
    http://www.msfc.com/history.cfm

  135. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 9:32 PM

    I thought it was funny recon when these schmucks talked about companies getting TAX BREAKS and equating that with the free money give away…

    I guess they don’t realize that there will be NO TAXES on the building materials for Ziggy’s Luxury Palace! And unlike the MetroDump, Ziggy will get almost all profits and pay no rent. And the county will give Ziggy 1.5 million a year for upkeep!!!!

    Section V A&B http://www.co.ramsey.mn.us/NR/rdonlyres/1333C8CA-3ABE-4A94-AB50-A6795634DBAA/23595/TermSheet51011.pdf

    The only honest reason I can think that anyone is in support of this is that either they work for Mortensen or maybe union laborers, are named Ziggy Wilf or don’t know what they’re talking about. And yet it’s 21%!

    And to be honest, it doesn’t help out the union guys that much… Maybe for 3 years? After that there’s gonna be layoffs.

  136. brewdogg says: May 31, 2011 9:45 PM

    Did you read your own link?

    “Rosen’s bill calls for the state to raise its share with a 10 percent state sales tax on sports memorabilia, a sales tax on luxury seats at the new stadium and on digital video recorders, and proceeds from stadium naming rights and a football-themed state lottery game.”

    Now, unless you buy a digital video recorder, this has nothing to do with anyone who is not a sports fan. Tell me again how this would be unfair to the Minnesota public? Let me guess….because the stadium naming rights should go to the people who didn’t want the stadium built, right?

  137. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 9:48 PM

    “And if you actually read the stuff, it’s 30 million annualy…”

    So, the Vikings are lying, and they genterate MORE taxes toward the state?

    http://www.vikings.com/assets/docs/quick-hits-051411.pdf

    So we’re going to float 600 million in free money to get 30 mil a year in taxes.

    You obviously dont read well. “And if you actually read the stuff” Dayton was firm on the state contribution only being $300 million if the site was Arden Hills. It was also stated that any overages would be the Vikings responsability, which the team in every other stadium built has been.

    You bitch about sites and facts, yet your numbers are so far off base, your credability on the subject has fallen into the negative.

    Recon, its actually 5%, and doesnt take affect for the first 2 years. I also apologize for blaming you for not knowing our former Gov.
    It was the so-called “local” who yet again shows he has no clue.

  138. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 10:03 PM

    goombar2 says:
    May 31, 2011 9:32 PM
    I thought it was funny recon when these schmucks talked about companies getting TAX BREAKS and equating that with the free money give away…

    I guess they don’t realize that there will be NO TAXES on the building materials for Ziggy’s Luxury Palace! And unlike the MetroDump, Ziggy will get almost all profits and pay no rent. And the county will give Ziggy 1.5 million a year for upkeep!!!!

    ___________________________________

    Again, learn to read.

    Section VII, C.

  139. vikefan says: May 31, 2011 10:04 PM

    at least its jobs for 3 years goombar

    the vikings are as important as schools are to me, thats an opinion and arbitrary, same can be said for every other sports team, museum, library, YMCA, & theatre. WELL ROUNDED COMMUNITY. Awesome events and experiences!

    BTW, ill give u a buck and u can give me 3 shiny quarters back as long as Vikings stay and keep my game day experience. I personally care less bout the cost, I WANT TO KEEP THEM

    p.s. good luck on your referendum

  140. vikefan says: May 31, 2011 10:07 PM

    sorry goombar, this aint green bay, WE have culture here. not like podunk WI, if u dont like culture, LEAVE

    ………and dont be stupid enuff to start with the sucesses between the franchises again, as a vikings fan i could give a rats ass, completely immaterial to me

  141. goombar2 says: May 31, 2011 11:03 PM

    Lie Lie and tell more lies! The 30 mil figure is from Mortenson… You don’t like it, fine go with the 21 mil… I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt, but fine, so now make it 30 years before the state can see a profit. You win, I guess…

    Overages are based after the estimate (and in this case after Ziggy might want to not have a retractable roof and he gets the savings), the estimate has already been received. The money the governments are allocating are the start up costs – what the governments can back for shovel ready. The rest of the money falls to bonds (tax free). Then if there are cost over runs, site gets flooded and work delayed stuff. But it’s bonded so that’s insured too… It’s a dumb thing to say and means nothing. You just don’t know what you’re talking about.

    You are the biggest BS artist… One day you’re father of the year and the next day the vikings mean as much as schools and museums. The same ones you take your son to… Right! What’s the REAL story? You obviously don’t know much about money or family.

    Rosen’s bill is a failure and she wont even put it out there. No way they get that money from memorabilia…

    A 10 percent tax on wholesale sales of sports memorabilia — including anything sold in Minnesota licensed by any pro sports team or league, not just the NFL — would provide most of the state funding share called for in a stadium bill, according to a study by the Revenue Department. . . . http://www.bluestemprairie.com/bluestemprairie/2011/04/are-republicans-planning-to-tax-some-clothing-raise-income-tax-on-some-rich-people.html

    The article mentions NASCAR, but it’s any licensed thing… Did you guys think this was about signed baseballs? Please tell me you guys aren’t that dumb…

    And it’s not people buying Tivos… How hoodwinked could you be! Who’s buying DVRs anymore? You rent them. I mean really, did you think everyone’s buying DVRs?

    $1.39 million from a 6.5 percent sales tax on direct satellite TV services, including DVR

    So if you rent a DVR from Comcast or have satellite with a box, get ready to write a check folks!

    Wow, just wow… Rosen isn’t getting this passed, so it’s not a big deal, but… It’d be nice if the 21% would take a look at what this is…

    How do you guys think they come up with 600 million dollars? Do you guys just not know how much money that is? That’s a lot of money, I just don’t think you folks know.

    And as far as culture and Green Bay… GB is a smaller city and isn’t nearly as cosmopolitan. I’m not from Green Bay, so again – no dog in this fight. It seems as though you think the vikings are Minnesota or something or to live here you have to be a fan. Heck, Ziggy isn’t a fan. Just more nonsense. And I have no idea how you think football has anything to do with culture… It’s entertainment that’s been in Minneapolis for 50 years their colors are purple and yellow, it ain’t Shakespeare pal.

  142. therealfranchise says: May 31, 2011 11:06 PM

    goombar2 says:
    May 31, 2011 9:17 PM
    “Since the state didnt pay a dime for the Metrodome, they actually profitted that money, not to mention all the tax revenue from the Twins, and every event held inside the Dome in those 20 years.”

    Anyway, if you want in here’s a history lesson. Hopefully it helps.
    http://www.msfc.com/history.cfm
    ___________________________________

    And this proves me wrong how?

    It cost $55 mill to build the Dome, $33 mill came from public money, ZERO came from the state.

    Again, you are unable to provide a rationale thought.

  143. brewdogg says: May 31, 2011 11:39 PM

    I’m really having trouble following your arguments, goombar…. You post links and make statements that strengthen the case FOR funding the stadium. I keep looking through them, thinking I am not following your line of thought and am missing some important point you are trying to make, and I have not found it. Here’s what I have found….

    You claim $30 million in tax revenue contributed by the team. Good. Your own argument defeats you. Now, it is important to know if your figure includes both state and county tax revenue, because that affects what costs it should be compared to. Since Ramsey county is speculating on the increased revenue due to the site shifting to their county, I can only assume that hard figures are in state income. Now, since the state’s share will be $300 million, inflated to $500 million as bonds mature, that makes average state cost $16.7 million annually. Now, granted, that is $16.7 million less than what they are currently receiving, but that’s better than losing $30 million, right?

    Here’s the best part…. The plan is for the stadium to be operational in 2015, when the beginning of the 30-year lease takes affect. That means another 4 years of tax revenue to be added to the total, or $120 million dollars. So, at $30 million annually, the state has made it’s money after 17 years (4 before the lease takes affect), and leaving an additional 17 years to collect that tax revenue for the citizens of Minnesota. So wouldn’t the argument be that I give you a dollar and you give me 8 quarters?

    I have tried to keep myself from making any personal attacks on you. Without looking back, I may have made some less than respectful remarks toward you, and if I have then I apologize. I have no desire to make this personal. This is simply a debate of differing points of view, hopefully with both of us taking something away from it that we had not previously considered.

    That being said…..I think you are trying to find proof for an argument that doesn’t make logical sense. You site an article that says that the majority of Ramsey legislators are against the bill, but in the same article it states that the requisite number of votes had already been secured. You claim no proof that the loss of the Vikings would decrease the tax base, and then give us a figure on how much they contribute. And aside from that, it seems like you are continually trying to sidetrack the argument….

    Anyway, we are just going in circles, and it’s gone on long enough. If it is put to a public vote, you will vote no. We all get that. We will vote yes. So how about we just sit back and see what happens.

    Let’s go back to arguing about the players. That was less contentious.

  144. vikefan says: Jun 1, 2011 11:39 AM

    Vikings football is shakespeare to me

    When i take my family to an event, i dont desensitize it as “dealing with it”, it always a fun and enjoyable experience no matter what the seat or event. (and i am willing to pay for them)

    all stats and reports aside: goombar and recon vote no (if u ever get that chance), again, good luck on the referendum, and no, no one is talking bout this now cause no one is talking AT ALL RIGHT NOW!!

  145. vikefan says: Jun 1, 2011 11:48 AM

    And as far as culture and Green Bay… GB is a smaller city and isn’t nearly as cosmopolitan. I’m not from Green Bay, so again – no dog in this fight.
    *******************************************
    wow!! thats even worse!! straight from the hores mouth, if you dont have a dog in the fight, who cares what u think!! I believe you have good intentions on the wrong website. You need to go the MN legislative website & complain there bout all the proposed raising of taxes (or in your case you would prefer cuts cause you sound so cheap). Dont show up on a sports web site when all u care bout is ur own shiny penny and not raising taxes or bonds. You said yourself u dont have a dog in this fight so get out of the fight.

    Really? talk bout someone with too much time on their hands

  146. goombar2 says: Jun 1, 2011 11:58 AM

    Ummmm… Because I don’t just halve the amount. You can’t just compare the the tax revenue to the third the state is putting up… Yeah, then it looks like you “might” have a case…

    You’re ignoring what the county owes… All of a sudden that money evaporates… And there’s still a huge chunk of change unaccounted for! That’s obviously the leftover money that heads to the bonds… And it’s not chump change. I have it down as 250 million, some sources have it as low as 170 million. It’s based on the fact of whether the infrastructure cost is taken out of the state share or not. Dayton has said it’s coming out of the 300 million. Rosen gives her not so sure response…

    And even the discussion of how much the infrastructure repairs bill is open I guess to interpretation. The land deal is supposed to be for 30 mil with additional clean up on the county’s dime. Nobody can be sure of that cost.

    But you have to know, or you’re just fooling yourself, that if the split on this deal for just the stadium is 60/40 with Wilf on the 40 end and the governments not getting anything as far as rent… There’s no way this is profitable in anyway…

    With the MetroDump, owning it and having the Gophers pay rent, the Twins pay rent, Vikings pay rent, hosting a Super Bowl, World Series, and final 4 touneys… The profit was 237 mil… Cost 68 mil… Time 30 years…

    This deal is we pay 60%, no rent, only viking, 8 games a year, nothing says a Super Bowl’s involved, and revenue sharing might be a thing of the past… But don’t worry, tax revenue makes it affordable? And at that you’re using my bloated number from Mortenson (which I don’t agree with, you guys don’t agree with necessarily, was on one of your links I found highly questionable) to make this case if you eliminate the county portion… I only used it because nobody could disagree with it and even though bloated, it still showed nothing would be gained.

    And you think your case has never been stronger? You’re grasping at straws… You might be a super fan, I don’t know but you can’t prove their is profit to be had out of this. Even the Governor is questioning this Arden Hills deal and says he can’t understand it.

  147. vikefan says: Jun 1, 2011 1:22 PM

    I could care less about any profit……I just want to keep them here, and anyone that flips the tv on on sunday to watch them deserves to help pay…….if u dont, move to where there is no football and u wont have to worry.

    Good luck in your “i have no dog in the fight” fight

    Good luck with your referendum

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