Eagles’ Chaney upset with “cheap shot” from Steelers’ Foster

Eagles linebacker Jamar Chaney is using Twitter and YouTube to call attention to a cheap shot he received from Steelers offensive lineman Ramon Foster during Thursday night’s preseason game.

“Looking at the cheap shot #73 for the Steelers gave me Thursday night, I should be be getting ready to have season ending surgery,” Chaney wrote on Twitter.

Chaney later tweeted a link to a YouTube video of the cheap shot, which shows Foster diving into the back of Chaney’s legs. Chaney also directed a tweet at Foster and called him “a coward.” And Chaney re-tweeted a tweet from a fan directed at NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, calling for Foster to be disciplined.

A couple of hours later, however, Chaney tweeted that he had heard from Foster and was willing to forgive.

“It’s all good Twitter fam. @RamonFoster reached out to me & I respect him for that. Most important thing is that I wasn’t injuried,” Chaney wrote. “Y’all know I ain’t the type of dude to hold a grudge. Wouldn’t benefit me none to do that anywayz. Just thankful Im still able to play.”

But while Chaney apparently feels no hard feelings toward Foster, the fact is he had every right to be upset. There’s no place in the NFL for one player taking out another at the knees from behind, and Foster deserves to be fined for what Chaney accurately called a cheap shot.

117 responses to “Eagles’ Chaney upset with “cheap shot” from Steelers’ Foster

  1. I thought this was just a guy whining because a lesser linebacker holds his rightful position, but HOLY CRAP that’s about as dirty as it gets.

  2. I agree. The Steelers aren’t as good as they used to be, but they refuse to go down that easily, so they resort to playing dirty and getting cheap shots in whenever they can. That, plus all the legal and PR troubles is tarnishing the reputation of a proud franchise. I wonder what Terry Bradshaw thinks…

  3. I’m western PA bred Steeler hardcore — but Chaney is right on. Foster intentionally launched his 3 bills plus body directly at Chaney’s knees … from behind.

    Not cool.

    No one hates the pussification of the NFL more than myself, but the play in question was just plain dirty – and has NO place in the game.

    Really glad Chaney appears to have escaped serious injury – but that was bush league and disgraceful. Big time.

    Apologies to Eagle Nation. Major apologies to Chaney.

  4. Wish I could make excuses, but it seems to occur separate from the action and does look like a bad hit to me. Shouldn’t an official have been in a position to see that? The point of flagging this behavior is that it addresses the situation immediately. And it hurts the team, which should be a deterrent. Fining doesn’t help after the game is over.

  5. this wouldn’t be on the website if it didn’t involve a steeler.. Foster is definitely wrong in what he did but this site clearly has an anti steeler bias

  6. Maybe the Steelers will loan you one of there many Trophies
    Got to have something in it other then andys lunch

  7. It’d be poetic justice if Foster gets a knee taken out.
    Cheapest of shots. Makes him look like a punk.

  8. What about the cheap shot that Jason Babin took on Roethlisbergers knees ? Ohhh no one seen that . Even Joe Buck commented that he cant believe a penalty wasnt given . Maybe it was retaliation for that .

  9. Yikes thats almost as bad as when carson palmer tore his acl, or when keith rivers broke his jaw, or when muhhamed massoqui got that concussion, or when wes welker got knocked out by ryan clark, or when vince young got tombstoned. Those were all such cheapshots and something was very similiar about all of them but i just can’t put my finger on it.

  10. No, the coward is the guy who does nothing about it on the field when it actually happens, and then goes home and uses twitter to try and settle the score.

  11. @ Deb:

    Yeah, it was away from the play; from behind; late; and a lame takeout knee shot. So many aggravating circumstances. It was like textbook horse poo (admittedly weak attempt to keep this show rated G).

    Love my Steelers and feel James Harrison has been wronged on a number of occasions — but Foster really blew it here.

    Foster could have shotgunned Chaney’s career and future in an instant with that one stupid ass move.

    So grateful Chaney somehow avoided a life-changing injury there — just really really thankful for the guy.

  12. @bigbluefan1 …. Your not allowed to take shots at us . Philly loves the New York Giants , your 2 guaranteed wins for us every year . (Eagles vs. nyg last six gms , EAGLES 6-0) . Keep cherishing 07 cause your team has been humiliated by Philly ever since . Were the team to beat in the East and NEWSFLASH: YOU LOSERS CANT BEAT US

  13. people hating on chaney must not have had any physical contact before because his football career could have been over. completely justified in calling him out

  14. For anyone calling him a baby, your idiots. How would you like someone to cost you a years worth of paychecks or even worse your career? I hope #73 gets what he deserves. Karma is a bitch.

  15. See what not wanting to practice does…weak!!! There are how many lineman hits as that each week and oh how nice it is to tweet, tweet ,tweet.

  16. Im a Steelers fan & I do think that was dirty! crying on twitter to me was a punk move also cause there are alot of was to get your point across then snitching/crying to the whole twit/ youtube nation pointin & $##t on video.. IMO there was alot of shots to the knees in that game from both teams!

  17. steeltownpride says:
    Aug 20, 2011 7:21 PM
    What about the cheap shot that Jason Babin took on Roethlisbergers knees ? Ohhh no one seen that . Even Joe Buck commented that he cant believe a penalty wasnt given . Maybe it was retaliation for that .

    ======================

    i was thinking the same thing. Difference is Ben didn’t go whining and crying about it on twitter.

  18. Foster should have been flagged, ejected from the Philly game, fined about $25,000 and suspended for AT LEAST four regular season games for this crap. It’s the only way the Pissburgh Squealers dirty crap will ever stop. As their coach, Mr. Tomlin, says, “The tape will tell the tale.” Well, this tape sure tells the tale on this latest installment of “Steeler cheap shots of all time.” Playing hard ass football is one thing. Taking shots like this is quite another. Suspend this bastard and send a strong message to all such dirty players.

  19. @russianbreadmaker : Your team finished in LAST place last year. No division titles since 1999. Till the skins win the division this millenium you should keep your opinions to your boyfriend . Enjoy ANOTHER Last place !

  20. Payback for the cheap shot by Jason Babin at Roethlisberger’s knees earlier. Even Joe Buck commented how he couldn’t believe that wasn’t called; ball was long gone and Babin dives at Ben’s knees.

  21. All these accusations about “cheap” shots levied against the Steelers are really unfair.

    Have you ever been to Pittsburgh? Everything looks ridiculously cheap if you’re not actually from there.

  22. typical Squealers behavior…..now queue all of the squealers deflecting this behavior with the talk of their 36 rings or however many the have…..

  23. With a nickname like “Hitman-Shawty” and claiming he is in “Bird Gang”, you’d think this guy would a grow a pair….

    All of that tough talk just to say he made peace with the guy. Too much rap music.

  24. We just saw Ryan Williams go out for the season cause of a knee injury on a freak play, now this dude is intentionally targeting his fellow player’s knee?

    c’mon man….

  25. A bunch of haters. That’s what goes with SUCCESS. It’s funny how grown men post hatred on these sites. Get a life. It’s a game.

  26. nickster2k says: Aug 20, 2011 7:48 PM

    steeltownpride says:
    Aug 20, 2011 7:21 PM
    What about the cheap shot that Jason Babin took on Roethlisbergers knees ? Ohhh no one seen that . Even Joe Buck commented that he cant believe a penalty wasnt given . Maybe it was retaliation for that .

    ======================

    i was thinking the same thing. Difference is Ben didn’t go whining and crying about it on twitter.
    ———

    If he didn’t know that it was going to warrant a bunch of people unleashing on him about raping (at least) two women, he would, otherwise.

  27. Steeltown, you just copied and pasted your comment”What about the cheap shot that Jason Babin took on Roethlisbergers knees ? Ohhh no one seen that . Even Joe Buck commented that he cant believe a penalty wasnt given . Maybe it was retaliation for that .” that goldenhandsva posted on the youtube video.

  28. A little ridiculous that all the comments on here are either Steeler fans calling Chaney a girl (for not liking a 300 pounder diving at his knees from behind), or Steeler haters with lame jokes calling all Steelers dirty.

    Let’s call it like we see it – this was a dirty play. Was the Babin one illegal? Maybe, though it wasn’t as egregious as the Foster play. If Chaney didn’t go so public about this hit, it wouldn’t have the attention it has now, nor would the pressure on the league be the same to fine Foster.

  29. Roethlisberger take more dirty, late cheap shots than any QB in the league with no flags thrown or fines issued.

    Last year the Ravens clubbed him in the freakin’ face and spread his nose in seven different directions witn NO FLAGS OR FINES. What gives? Seriously?

    He constantly takes dirty, late cheap shots and nothing is ever done about it.

    Call it both ways refs. Not just against the Steelers.

  30. Foster and called him “a coward.”

    A coward?
    Foster isn’t the one who waited two days, then griped on Twitter…
    Say it to his face next time. Man up.

  31. Babin’s hit wasn’t in the same league as far as “dirtiness”. Roethliesberger could see him coming, Foster dived at Chaney from behind. Even if Babin’s hit was dirty and deserved retaliation, by what common sense does that make it okay for Foster to cheap shot Chaney? If you want revenge, have an OL try to take out Babin.

  32. “Roethlisberger take more dirty, late cheap shots than any QB in the league”
    Actually he buys cheap shots for 19 year old female b4 he take them in the bathroom.

  33. stixzidinia says:

    No, the coward is the guy who does nothing about it on the field when it actually happens, and then goes home and uses twitter to try and settle the score.
    ———————————————
    What did you want Chaney to do? He could have waved his arms at the officials like Brady, but since he’s not Big Tom, I doubt it would have done any good. Or he could have run over and pounded Foster, but then he would have been ejected–and that would have been pretty stupid. Come on, now. Our guy made a dirty play. It sucks, but it is what it is.

    @paulieorkid …

    Considering our rocky start, it’s amazing how often we now seem to agree 🙂

  34. 3octave, what’s worse: diving at someone’s knees from behind trying to injure him, or calling someone out on twitter? the two aren’t even comparable.

  35. The hit was late, unnecessary and should have been flagged but…

    hitting Chaney from behind like he did isn’t going to “take his knees out”. All Foster did was cause Chaney’s knees to buckle in their natural, bending motion. Had he hit Chaney FROM THE FRONT then yes, he absolutely could have caused serious injury by hyper-extending one or both of Chaney’s knees. So, while the play deserved a flag, it wasn’t quite as dirty as it looked, since it lacked any significant potential to cause serious injury.

  36. @stuartscottslefteye …

    Even I wouldn’t argue against a fine for something this blatant, but this stuff still needs to be flagged on the field. And the refs miss more things than … well, Stuart Scott without his glasses 😉

    Suppose that had been late fourth quarter of a playoff game, and the Steelers had just converted a 3rd and 17. Whether or not the officials flagged that personal foul could make the difference in the game’s outcome. That’s why I’m tired of officials missing things when they happen and the league fining them later. Officials are paid to see it when it occurs. And if they can’t, we need new officials, more officials, or the NCAA’s system of booth review.

  37. Anyone who defends that hit and takes a shot at Chaney is an ignorant Steelers fan. As an unbiased fan, the ref missed it and Foster should be fined…..get ready for some Harrison mouth garbage.

  38. Citizen Strange,…Big Ben is an absolute WARRIOR. I’m an Eagle fan but think Ben is the toughest QB in the league. He can play for my team anytime! total respect for Ben, especially after getting his nose busted and kept on playing.

  39. To many of u couch geeks never played the game or touched a football in your life if you cry foul like little girls. Steelers owned the Eagles. Cry, pout, say it’s preseason, whaaaaa, whaaaaa. Only cheap shot coming from the game is Vick saying to the filhadelphia fans he was not interested in the Eagles. Congrats bird fans, u have a Donovan Mcnabb junior. Gotta go, Mr. Vick at the door with collecting money for pita.

  40. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Steelers fans are scum for excusing Foster … except most of us aren’t excusing him. And if a player on your team made a dirty hit, you’d be defending it with the fervor of King Richard in the Crusades, as the Suh threads demonstrate. Hypocrite, thy names are … too numerous to list.

  41. Wow, look at these Steeler fans making fun of Chaney. I used to think it was wrong for Goodell to fine Harrison, but they play dirty on the field and are dirty people off the field. Hines, rapist, Harrison, and now this guy. I still think it’s rapist’s bad influence.

  42. She says as shge excuses him by blaming other teams’ fans.

    *****************************
    Deb says:
    Aug 20, 2011 10:09 PM
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, Steelers fans are scum for excusing Foster … except most of us aren’t excusing him. And if a player on your team made a dirty hit, you’d be defending it with the fervor of King Richard in the Crusades, as the Suh threads demonstrate. Hypocrite, thy names are … too numerous to list.

  43. @dmobey …

    Do you even have a favorite team? I follow the league in general and have never seen you comment on any NFL issue or any team except the Steelers. In fact, usually you’re specifically mouthing off at me about Roethlisberger no matter what I’m commenting on. But by all means, keep posting. Comments like yours–all trash talk and no substance–have tremendous support in high places.

  44. Yes, a vocal component of Steeler Nation can be less than gracious in trying to explain away everything with bombastic exclamations about just how jealous others must be of “their” success – even when one of our own clearly crosses the line.

    In this case, no one is envious of “our” success.

    We effed up.

    We need to own it.

    My experience has shown that many of the brothers and sisters of Steeler Nation do have some class, and are able to rightfully discern when we’ve mis-stepped. Clearly, this is the case in this instance.

    Amazingly enough, Chaney dodged a life-changing injury. Very thankful for that.

    @ Deb: you’re alright, girl. You’re alright.

  45. As much as I hate the Eagles, that was ridiculous. I wouldn’t even argue about a one game suspension along with any fine for Foster. No call for such an obvious cheap shot.

  46. LOL at the Browns and Ravens fans trying to jump on this. You’re jealous of Pittsburgh’s trophy case. Flacco will never win a ring, and the Browns will always be the Steelers’ resident punching bag. It’s simply the way of things. And Steeler Nation will always fart in your general direction.

  47. @freedomispopular

    You’re right, a player getting clipped from behind like that could blow out their ACL; however, it would have to be a shot to the knees which would cause the player to fall completely backwards onto his own heels, and also be combined with some sort of twisting motion for this to occur.

    On the play in question, if you watch the video, you’ll first see Foster barrel into the back of Chaney and then Chaney sits/bounces off of Foster’s back before falling forward to the ground. The “sit/bounce” off Foster’s back stopped Chaney’s backward motion and protected his ACL from damage.

    Still, it was a bonehead play, as I’m sure Mike Tomlin made clear to him today at practice, and well-deserving of 15 big ones for a late hit and/or unsportsmanlike conduct.

    Also, the play was ripped by at least one local Pittsburgh sportswriter here (see second bullet point): http://blog.triblive.com/steel-mill/2011/08/20/after-further-review-2/

  48. Wow, I can not believe anyone would even begin to try to explain this. Steelers fans, cmon now. Look I know we all defend our teams and sometimes we do it even if the team is wrong. But seriously this is about as cheap as a cheap shot gets.

    This Foster dude needs to sit for at least the opener. Going after somones knees in the PRESEASON no less is pathetic. I am sure the guy isn’t a bad guy and i am also sure it was heat of the moment. At the same time he did the crime and he should do the time, and that should be a 1 game suspension. And yes if it was an Eagles player i would think the same thing.

    The league wants to keep players safer well heres te leagues chance to step up. Not a fine. Kid should lose a game. That way maybe players think twice before doing something like. I am not one of these “Steelers are cheap” guys but i think if Tomlin (who i do think is a classy coach, unlike some of the fan base)were to do the suspending him self i think it would go a long way to help with that image and might make the league office lay off the steelers next time they have a border line hit or whatever.

  49. i agree it was a shady play but the play before or 2 plays before an eagle went after ben’s legs and hit him low. even the announcers said it should of been called. so i believe he was protecting his own. if the refs aren’t going to protect ben then somebody needs to send a message! you would do the same for your teammate and if you wouldn’t then your not a good teammate or you never played sports. if he was not protecting ben then i agree it was a shady play.

  50. Dude is 5 yards behind the play on a running play. He sees the back get tackled and decides to dive from behind and a take a dude’s leg out. How he does he not get fined?
    And being a die hard Eagles fan doesn’t make a difference. And if he was on my team the same reaction would of came like in the past. He is not defended, but called an idiot and gets called names for being stupid and always hurting the team.

  51. Babin cheap shotted Ben, Ben also got his head twisted by a facemask (That was called) on the play before Foster’s hit. Ben’s facemask was grabbed last week in the Washington game, and that one wasn’t called.

    I like it. Eye for an eye. The Steelers are fed up with constant cheap shots to Ben being ignored.

    Teams want them to stop? Then the NFL should get the officials to stop their “Prison Rules” treatment of Ben Roethlisberger.

    Period.

  52. Same old cheap shot Steelers. I don’t know why this team has this culture. They have talent. They don’t need to resort to this kind of lowlife stuff all the time.

  53. Why do you idiots even post talking about tampons and skirts and stuff? That was the definition of a dirty play! If you cant see that then your blind or wayyy to bias!
    1. The play was over.
    2. His back was to him

    People are soooo piss ignorant these days its pitiful!

  54. Anyone who is calling Chaney a wimp clearly hasn’t seen the video.

    Cheap shot all the way.

    The hit was away from the play, after the runner was down, and Foster clearly dove at Chaney’s knees, from BEHIND. Chaney never even saw him coming.

    This is as dirty as it gets and it could have killed Chaney’s season, or possibly his career.

    All you morons with the “bruised vag” jokes, and the tampon, skirt, pu$$y jokes need to actually click on the youtube link and THEN come back and say those things.

  55. It looked like a dirty cheap shot to me. Glad Chaney wasn’t hurt. I hope the league fines Foster, but as some said that would not offset a potentially serious injury to the other player. No room in the game for that. I am sure Tomlin will have a spirited discusison with him.

    And yes, I thought Babin’s hit to Ben was illegal as well. Comparing one to the other doesn’t matter, but the officials missed both.

    But wow, many posters above apparently have never watched a Steeler game since you would think every play they make is dirty, which only makes the posters look like stupid fools to say such a thing. That is what jealousy does to you I guess.

    GO STEELERS!!

  56. “Boo Hoo Hoo. Another cheap shot by the Steelers. Boo Hoo Hoo.” Because the other 31 teams never have one of their 53 players ever ever do a cheap shot during an entire 16 game season plus playoffs. It is only a Steeler right? Or is it that only when a Steeler does it, it is plastered on headlines and commented on by jealous losers. And the OL never ever cheap shot James Harrison and there are never ever late hits on Ben Roethlisberger where the referee stares at it and does not throw a flag. (See 1st quarter of both preseason games on 2 separate times.) Face it people. The NFL is FULL of cheap-shot artists on EVERY TEAM. Look at the lineman leg-whips and horse-collars. Winners produce jealousy.

  57. Besides the old Buddy Ryan Eagles and Ray Lewis’ bounty from the past, I highly doubt that a player is intentionally trying to hurt another player (Harrison’s use of the word “Hurt” from his comments last year is referring to intimidation of the opponent and not actually injuring someone, but you dwell on it). Foster is just an idiot for missing his block and trying to dive at the defenders back and hitting his knees. Do you actually think that a back-up OL is smart enough to intentionally injure someone?

  58. gimmeabruschi says:

    Same old cheap shot Steelers. I don’t know why this team has this culture. They have talent. They don’t need to resort to this kind of lowlife stuff all the time.
    ————————————————-

    You’re too smart for that. I’d never defend this hit, but don’t damn the team over one idiot. The Steelers don’t take anymore cheap shots than any other team–including yours. Babin’s hit on Roethlisberger was ridiculous. I’ve never seen one of our players set out to break someone’s face, as Ngata did last season. James Harrison may be the stereotypical angry young man but ignore the hype and watch his play. He became a DPOY by using good technique. Steeler screwups just get highlighted because they generate so much attention from lovely commenters like you 🙂

    Take off your Pat glasses, and be fair. The Steelers aren’t just big, bad hitmen.

    BTW … seen my cannolis? 😉

  59. I’m a Steeler fan, and that was about as cheap as it gets. Foster deserved a penalty and a fine if not a suspension. You just can’t be allowed to do that.

  60. I’m with ya Contract – Steeler fan here too, but Foster’s b.s. was wayyyy out of line.

    I think most real Steeler fans (i.e., not posers, bandwagonners, pot-stirrers) get it. Foster really crapped his pants on that play, and a message needs to be sent his way.

    This is a GREAT example presented on a silver platter for Goodell to learn to DISCERN the difference between a dirty ass play like Foster’s blindside … after-the-whistle … away-from-the-play unnecessary (potentially career ending) knee launch ———- from legitimate hard-nosed football at a game way faster than damn near anyone in here (and Goodell) can comprehend.

    Goodell will blow it.

    He always does.

    Goodell has proven conclusively that he can’t distinguish the different between physical football and a legit cheap shot — so he fines the crap out of EVERYone with a broad brush.

    It blows my mind why so many players (usually naive rooks) smooch his backside like they do. Seriously.

  61. @paulieorkid …

    Agree with you, except about the hit being after the whistle. Ran the clip several times and the hit happened just as the whistle blew. But it was away from the action, and there’s no justification for it. Don’t know what Foster was thinking.

  62. ha ha ha ha

    ***********************************
    shouldbworking says:
    Aug 20, 2011 9:03 PM
    “Roethlisberger take more dirty, late cheap shots than any QB in the league”
    Actually he buys cheap shots for 19 year old female b4 he take them in the bathroom.

  63. I’m shocked! Deb spent hours reviewing the evidence and found it didn’t happen late despite what everyone saw.

    Next it won’t even have been cheap.

    Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.

    ******************************************
    Deb says:
    Aug 21, 2011 8:54 PM
    @paulieorkid …

    Agree with you, except about the hit being after the whistle. Ran the clip several times and the hit happened just as the whistle blew. But it was away from the action, and there’s no justification for it. Don’t know what Foster was thinking.

  64. mobeydick, he was a bad bad boy. He did a bad bad thing. Really bad.

    But the officials were slow on their whistles. Since they couldn’t even find their flags, is that such a surprise? It would have taken less time to watch the clip yourself than to be an ass. Aw … but where’s the fun in that … right? 🙄

  65. Yeah that hit was hella janky..but he MAND up and said he was wrong
    ..still needs to be fined..but as always we got the hollier then now Steeler haters commin out in full force..lol nothin we not use to by now…Weeeeeniez

  66. @ Deb who said on Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:54 PM:
    @paulieorkid …

    Agree with you, except about the hit being after the whistle. Ran the clip several times and the hit happened just as the whistle blew. But it was away from the action, and there’s no justification for it. Don’t know what Foster was thinking.

    I don’t know what Foster was thinking either, but it may have been an overreaction to the horsesh_t Ben has dealt with for your years and that Eagle game showcased another inexcusable shot that was late, low and after the defender had any reason to kiss Ben other than malice.

    Even so, Foster really shouldn’t have gone there — Chaney’s career could have been flushed in an instant.

  67. All you morons who keep on saying that Babin took a cheap shot on Ben are TOTALLY in the wrong here!! Babin’s hit was late, I’ll definitely give you that, but it wasn’t at his knees from behind rolling into the back of Ben’s legs! Yes, Babin should have been flagged for a late hit (and that’s what Joe Buck was talking about idiots! That it was a late hit, not that it was low and trying to take out his knees!!), but his late hit wasn’t even in the same universe as the cheap shot that Foster gave to Chaney! Foster should be suspended for that hit, while Babin got away with one, so don’t dare try to justify Fosters cheap shot because of Babin should have been flagged for a late hit! These were totally different types of hits, one was disgustingly malicious and the other was just football and tends to get flagged every single game. IDIOTS!!!!!

  68. @paulieorkid …

    As a Bama fan, I’ve been tempted throughout this discussion to note that Foster played for Tennessee, so he probably doesn’t think. But I won’t go there … nah 😉

    @wubanga252 …

    No matter what Babin did, one bad hit doesn’t justify another, so I’m not making any excuses for Foster. And Babin was flagged (wonder of wonders, because a lot of personal fouls on Roethlisberger go unnoticed). But did you catch the facemask/head twist Babin put on Ben while he was making that tackle? If you don’t think that was malicious, you’re also an IDIOT, Mr. Pot. 🙄

  69. @ Deb

    What are you talking about?? Babin wasn’t flagged on the late hit on the 1st drive that everyone is talking about, and Babin never touched Ben’s facemask the entire game (Cullen Jenkins did on 3rd and 20 and was called for it)! I have the game on tape and just watched the first half when the starters played and never once did Babin do anything malicious. So once again, what are you babbling about???

  70. @wubanga252 …

    Well, it sounds like I’m babbling about two different plays, doesn’t it? This does happen occasionally … even to wunderkinds like myself 😳

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