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League not commenting on possible changes to 12 men penalty

Tom Coughlin AP

At some point soon, a video will be posted in the right rail with a PFT (Almost) Live take on the late-game penalty called against the Giants for having 12 men on the field.

Apart from whether Tom Coughlin is now the anti-Brad Childress, using an extra man to his advantage in a key moment of a fairly important game, the question now becomes whether the league will remove the incentive to send an extra defender onto the field in such moments, where the five yards becomes meaningless and the free play is easier to stop, what with the 12 men on the field, and time gets sucked off the clock.

Here’s the key language from Rule 5, Section 1, Article 1:  “The game is played by two teams of 11 players each. If a snap, free kick, or fair-catch kick is made while a team has fewer than 11 players on the field of play or the end zone, the ball is in play, and there is no penalty. If a team has more than 11 players on the field of play or the end zone when a snap, free kick, or fair-catch kick is made, the ball is in play, and it is a foul.”

The penalty is fairly tame:  “Loss of five yards from the previous spot.”

Given the text of the rule and the penalty, why stop at 12 men?  Send 13.  Or 14.  Or 20.  Regardless, the penalty will be only five yards.

“There is no other penalty for too many men on the field,” the league tells PFT via email.  “The Competition Committee agenda for the off-season is in the process of being formulated.  We are not going to comment on it at this point.”

That’s fine, but someone needs to add this item to the agenda.  Either Coughlin is brilliant, or he has discovered plutonium by accident.

So when the clock is a factor late in a game, use extra defenders.  As long as the penalty doesn’t happen on the final play, the tactic serves only to chew up time.

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101 Responses to “League not commenting on possible changes to 12 men penalty”
  1. chrisexv6 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:08 PM

    I was just talking to a co-worker about this this morning and he menti0ned that Buddy Ryan had done something like this on purpose: goal line stand, sent something like 13 players out….they stopped the other team of course, took the penalty (half the distance) but basically ran out the clock because of it essentially completing a goal line stand with too many men and winning the game.

    Im a Giants fan and the first question I had was if they would add time back onto the clock, simply because 5 yards didnt make anywhere near the difference that adding the time back onto the clock would have.

  2. rpiotr01 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:09 PM

    I would think and hope that if a ref noticed a team doing this more than once on a drive he would start handing out 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalties to the defense.

    But yes, some sort of “within two minutes left in the game, clock resets” rule is in order as well.

  3. ravensruleandharbaughisgod says: Feb 7, 2012 2:10 PM

    Too many men on the field is essentially a dead ball foul. It should be treated as such. No time should run off the clock because time is more important than yardage at the end of a half or game. Perhaps the rule should be no time off either period or, at the least, in the final 2 minutes of a half or game.

  4. tundey says: Feb 7, 2012 2:11 PM

    Didn’t someone post a playbook from a famous defensive coach that highlighted this very same strategy? Funny thing is that I was just telling my wife about that strategy when the Giants pulled it off.

  5. war27 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:11 PM

    “The Competition Committee agenda for the off-season is in the process of being formulated. We are not going to comment on it at this point.”

    Including this in your story means you shouldn’t even have bothered with this.

  6. noquickreactionshere says: Feb 7, 2012 2:11 PM

    We talked about this after the game (Not being bitter we were rooting for the G-Men). It is a pre snap foul so it should be a dead ball foul, if the penalty is accepted time goes back on the clock.

    Problem solved…. your welcome NFL

  7. bleachertees says: Feb 7, 2012 2:13 PM

    I think the fix to this would be on penalties for too many men on the field, the game clock gets reset to the time at the snap. So the offense gets a free play that is an untimed down.

  8. goeagles55 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:13 PM

    Buddy Ryan came up with this idea. He called it the Polish Defense. Except his defense was for closer to the goal line and he would use 3 extra linebackers on the second to last play of the game. He was never able to use it in a real game.

    He did use the Polish Punt Team though. He had 14 men on the field for a punt to ensure it wouldn’t be blocked. The penalty would only be 5 yards after the play. But the referees didn’t notice and he had 13 guys blocking on a punt with no penalty.

    link: http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic

  9. tundey says: Feb 7, 2012 2:14 PM

    Here’s the playbook: http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic

    I would have thought the NFL would have closed that loophole by now. As long as the defense doesn’t commit a pass interference penalty, the 5-yard penalty is so worth it especially if you can bleed valuable seconds off the clock

  10. geemoney713 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:14 PM

    I was saying the exact same thing to everyone when this happened. “Watch, the Giants are going to put in all 53 on the next play. Pats offense is good, but unless the clock is about to run out, put 53 on the field and I’m sure you can stop em for that play.”

    5 yards for 10-15 seconds, well worth it.

    I’m reminded of a movie quote “Two minutes, well worth it” D2 Mighty Ducks.

  11. dohpey28 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:16 PM

    How’d that work out for the Pats when they had 12 men on the field?

  12. gosuhgo says: Feb 7, 2012 2:16 PM

    That was my thought during the last drive. Put literally the entire team on the field if that’s the rule except for the last play. Run the clock to 5 seconds committing penalties and just make that 1 last play.

  13. georgebrett says: Feb 7, 2012 2:18 PM

    It must be changed because others will do the same as the NFL is a copycat league. How about 15 yards and the clock is reset to what the clock said at the snap of the ball.

  14. dmartin17 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:18 PM

    This is something they definitely need to address, and quickly because this is a copy cat league and this is all we will see next year.

  15. 2sausage11 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:18 PM

    So your saying the Giants cheated to win! put an * next to their SB win

  16. all4patriots says: Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM

    Mike Golic said that when he was an Eagle, Buddy Ryan taught his defense to do this: Run extra guys on the field, stop the play while giving up a meaningless 5 yards, and draining 10 seconds or so from the clock.

    needs to be fixed

    In this case (Giants-Patriots) it was likely unintentional and likely irrelevant to the outcome

  17. drunkenhooliganism says: Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM

    They need to roll back the clock on all penalties in the last minute (or whatever time frame you want to use). It’s not just 12 men on the field. It could also be the DB’s tackling the receivers at the line of scrimmage and only getting a 5 yard holding penalty while 8 seconds roll off the clock, or the entire DL jumping offsides and getting to the QB before he can throw the ball downfield, or even a combination of all these things. Even if the penalty is an “honest” penalty, it gives an unnecessary edge to the defense.

    Simply put the time back on the clock, mark off the penalty and replay the down.

  18. patsfiend says: Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM

    Has anyone figured out if he did this on purpose? If so, kudos to him… he out-Belichicked Belichick. Losing that time was killer. By the looks of them all standing around, with no one trying to get off the field… it looked like it was on purpose to me.

    If BB did such a thing, all the “cheating” whiners would be out in force, for sure, but kudos to Coughlin (from this Pats fan) if he worked this penalty to the Giants advantage. Un-frikken-believable.

  19. steelersb says: Feb 7, 2012 2:21 PM

    Put the time back on the clock inside of 2min at the end of each half.

  20. zoxitic says: Feb 7, 2012 2:22 PM

    Easy fix.

    If the penalty happens in the last 5 minutes of play, it is 5 yards and the clock goes back to the original time when the play started.

  21. maxvv says: Feb 7, 2012 2:22 PM

    The penalty ought to change, but as Deadspin pointed out, the Giants clearly didn’t put 12 men out on purpose. The extra man in the backfield is Justin Tuck, trying to reach the sidelines.

  22. vipod4ever says: Feb 7, 2012 2:24 PM

    easy fix, enforce the penalty and the clock is reset.

  23. charlesu2 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:25 PM

    It seems like an easy fix. If the defensive team is called for one of these type of penalties in the last two minutes of the game there would be a ten second add on, much in the same way there is a ten second run off when the offense commits penalties designed to stop the clock.

  24. magnuminsp says: Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM

    The simple answer is to put the time elapsed back on the clock.

  25. sj39 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM

    He out smarted Belichick? Yeah look for a change.

  26. mike83ri says: Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM

    Let’s paint a scenario.

    Brady sees 20 guys on the field.

    Brady snaps the ball and immediately takes a knee.

    1 second off the clock yielded 5 yards.

    If the defense continued the same strategy and Brady were starting at his own 20, he would be on the 5 yards line in 15 seconds.

    Sounds like a pretty terrible strategy to me. And one that should police itself.

    It’s on the defense to decide on either a) taking 5 yards a second in hopes the defense will continue or; b) take high-risk big-play shots down the field with no risk of a turnover and a minimum of a 5 yard gain.

    Most of the time even if they have 12-13 players out there, they’ll take B.

  27. gcsuk says: Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM

    Of course the league has to “look into it”. Who was hurt by the play?

    If the Patriots had somehow benefited, then THAT would be a different story.

  28. cdwains says: Feb 7, 2012 2:28 PM

    They should just make it an unsportsman like conduct, since technically its cheating.

  29. jnbnet says: Feb 7, 2012 2:28 PM

    If Belichick had done that, everyone would be yelling “cheater” at the top of their lungs.

  30. tuckfanforlife says: Feb 7, 2012 2:28 PM

    valid point, but where the post where vince wilwork shown tuck no respect at the coin toss.

    so knock the giants, not the pats, got it

  31. kdish87 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:28 PM

    Reminds me of a November 2006 Wisconsin – Penn State Game. Wisconsin just took the lead and intentionally went offside on the kickoffs to drain time off the clock when there was 23 seconds left before halftime. Just proves that there’s always going to be loopholes.

  32. mike83ri says: Feb 7, 2012 2:28 PM

    It’s on the OFFENSE to decide on either a) taking 5 yards a second in hopes the defense will continue or; b) take high-risk big-play shots down the field with no risk of a turnover and a minimum of a 5 yard gain.

    *correction to prior post

  33. schleifnet says: Feb 7, 2012 2:29 PM

    sounds like this may be on purpose, see Old Oiler’s coach Buddy Ryan’s Polish Goalline Play:

    http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic

    12 men for goalline stand stops conversion and burns enough time to only allow one play then regular goalline stand to win (link above includes proof this was used later in his career too)

  34. tobiasjodter says: Feb 7, 2012 2:29 PM

    I should think that deliberately circumventing the rules by sending 13. or 14. or 20. men on the field could trigger a “Palpably unfair act” penalty.

    And the distance penalty could then be determined by the referee.

  35. freedomispopular says: Feb 7, 2012 2:30 PM

    If Coughlin did it on purpose, then it was brilliant. Sounds like something Belichick would do. Though it’s a little sketchy, it is indeed within the rules, and like they say, all’s fair in love and war. After reading this, I agree something definitely needs to be done about it. IMO, it would be pretty simple: either make it a dead ball foul (which could definitely be hard for the refs to keep track of when the offense is in the no-huddle), or make it a 15 yard penalty. And if making it 15 yards is too harsh, just implement it in the final 5 minutes of either half.

    And now cue all the people who will feel the need to attack an asterisk to the Giants win.

  36. Michael says: Feb 7, 2012 2:31 PM

    The only downside to using 12 men in that situation is if they come up with an INT or fumble, it would be nullified. And the coach vilified.

  37. tobiasjodter says: Feb 7, 2012 2:32 PM

    Or if I read the rules correctly, the referee could actually award a touchdown.

  38. footballfan80 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:33 PM

    Inside last 2 minutes of either half rule should be changed to 5 yard penalty AND time reverts back to amount of time left before play started.

    And to the writer of the article, no, Coughlin is not a genious. He was an idiot. They had 12 men on the field because Tuck was running to get off in time. He was not active in the play. If he was smart, he would have told him to run back on the field along with 30 more or so of his teammates.

  39. footballfan80 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:35 PM

    If you want another loophole to consider, how about offensive players just tackling all the defenders after the last play of the first half? No 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty can be assessed on the opening 2nd half kickoff. Those rules are the NFL, not mine.

  40. LoCoSu@%s says: Feb 7, 2012 2:36 PM

    magnuminsp says:
    Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM
    The simple answer is to put the time elapsed back on the clock.
    —-
    Good answer. It will be even more of a deterrent if they were to tack on, say 10 seconds when the penalty occurs during the last 2 minutes of the half.

  41. footballfan80 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:37 PM

    Michael:

    Maybe you should have watched the super bowl. A fumble or interception by the defense with 12 men on the field in that scenario is the dream situation for the defense. More seconds will tick off on the fumble or interception return.

  42. t1mmy10 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:38 PM

    it’s solved pretty easily….just re-set the clock for any accepted penalty on the winning team within 2 min left in the half or game so no time ran off the clock.

  43. squared80 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:38 PM

    Long article for a simple “put time back on the clock” solution. Pretty obvious.

  44. jamessmyth621 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:42 PM

    Piggybacking on maxvv’s comment, the Deadspin article has video of the play.

    http://deadspin.com/5882607/did-the-giants-put-12-men-on-the-field-on-purpose-for-bradys-first-hail-mary

    You can see on the top of the screen that it’s just the typical “12th man scrambling to the sidelines but can’t get there in time” version of the penalty

  45. sonvar says: Feb 7, 2012 2:42 PM

    I could be wrong but I don’t recall very many if any at all with defensive penalties that result in time being put back. So you may not want to look at just this one but others as well. The other problem in this is that it in some situations you probably want the clock to run. If a time is trying to run out the clock but because on a play the defense had 12 men on the field do we still put the time back on the clock? I would say no but then we start putting more scenarios for referees to have to go through and to be honest it’s would make things worse

  46. rcb0424 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:43 PM

    People who are to simple minded to grasp the concept of the rule and the idiocy of ‘adding time back on the clock’ should not be commenting. The time CANNOT be added back on the clock during a free play. The offense could run a hail mary and complete the play and the gain would count, and time would be used. So you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say ‘well we’ll use the time IF it benefits us, but if it doesn’t, and we have an incomplete or other negative outcome, then we’d like the time back.’ It doesn’t work like that.

    So really the simplest solution of all would be making it a 5 yard penalty and dead ball penalty from the snap with no play occuring. If a team has multiple penalties in a row, as if they are trying to delay the play over and over to get the right set of defenders on the field, then you could look at it becoming a 15 yarder for reoccuring.

    But most of you need to understand if the offense can run a play and accept a possible positive outcome from it then time cannot be put back on the clock.

    you can’t have your cake and eat it to.

  47. herkulease says: Feb 7, 2012 2:43 PM

    from game footage it doesn’t look intentional.

    It was justin tuck or one of hte d-line players was coming off the field. he had his helmet off on that play as he was trying to get off. He was I’d say half a yard from reaching the side lines when ball was snapped.

    Peyton does it often when he sees guys subbing and not getting off fast enough.

    In any case like someone stated the easiest solution is simply put the time back on.

    If the offense accepts the penalty they get 5 yards plus time back on the clock.

    If they decline it then it stays as it is now. yardage gained and whatever time had elapsed.

  48. rusty81 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:44 PM

    the “problem” with this theory about winning the game by just continually taking 5 year penalties is the defense will evenutally have to only have 11 on the field, even if the clock runs out completely. per the rules, a game cannot end on a defensive penalty. so in theory, the so called “polish defense” would result in an untimed down from basically the goal line. i guess if you are on defense and within the 5 and it’s 1st and goal, it would make sense to limit the offense to one shot. in a situation like sunday’s game, it would seem counter productive as you’d give a huge advantage to the offense by allowing the “free” yardage and then one untimed shot from the goal line (or close to it)

  49. chrisexv6 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:49 PM

    I know people have mentioned its a pre-snap/deadball foul, but think about it….the team has until the ball is snapped to remove the 12th player. Therefore there has to be a play run for it to even BE a penalty, so it cant be a dead ball/presnap foul.

    I WOULD think the team should have the option of declining the penalty, which should result in the time being put back on the clock (how does offsides work?)

  50. edrooney says: Feb 7, 2012 2:52 PM

    If Coughlin did it intentionally is it cheating?

    No, not at all; it’s called using a loophole in the rules to your advantage. Every coach looks for an advantage over another team, and until the NFL says “NO” then it’s exploiting a loophole. If the NFL wants to change it, then change it. It’s that easy. (not unlike semantics involving where cameras can & can not be positioned on a football field)

    Congrats to the Giants & their fans on a hell of a game. The G-men earned every second of this title. This Patriots fan is heartbroken, but is confident they will be back next year and in the playoff conversation all year long. I can’t wait for week 1 next September.

  51. cured76 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM

    Playing too many men is great for shaving a few seconds off the clock and giving your opponent free yardage. The only issue, though, is any good play the defense makes is negated. Sack? Doesn’t count. INT? Doesn’t count. Fumble? Doesn’t count. That kind of makes the tactic a little stupid. Ask New England if they think guarding the Giants with 12 men is a great idea. That Victor Cruz fumble call may very well have changed the game.

  52. zerophocus says: Feb 7, 2012 2:55 PM

    I don’t understand all the comments from people who want to muddy up a simple rule. They want to make the rule mean different things at different moments, instead of one rule at all times which is how it should be.

    Its not a dead ball because it isn’t a penalty until the snap, also it essentially gives the offense a free play, which in most circumstances is a bad thing. In this circumstance it happened to be a good thing.

    Some may want to question why Tom Brady didn’t spike the ball once the flags flew, or why he didn’t chuck the ball out of bounds instantly, at which point they would have had the clocked stopped, moved 5 yards, and lost 3 seconds. I suppose its because he didn’t even notice the 12th man.

  53. danthman42 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:56 PM

    leave the rule exactly as it is. could make for a pretty hilarious chess match.

    the strategy wouldn’t work anyway, if the offense were prepared for it..just take a knee as quickly as possible when you see too many men on the field. you could run plays in 1, maybe 2 seconds tops. the patriots could’ve gotten down to the giants 20 yard line if coughlin started employing that strategy with 15-20 seconds left.

  54. jpb12 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:59 PM

    Game can’t end on a defensive penalty. There would be an extra ‘untimed play’.

    It’s essentially a free play for the offense. What if they completed the pass at the 20 and time ran out? They’d get one more ‘untimed play’ with a chance to score a TD.

    Not so sure they need to change the rule.

    Could add five yards for every extra player…

  55. descendency says: Feb 7, 2012 3:07 PM

    I’ve long said to cheat at the end of games to run the clock out.

    Let’s say the team is first and goal on the 1 with a poor running game and 30 seconds left on the clock with you having a 4 point lead. Have your DBs tackle their WRs every play until the clock is at 0:00. Then force them to score in 1 play instead of the possible 4 they would get. Sure, they could run the ball, but it definitely removes any chance of them scoring via the pass.

    I’ve thought it should be fixed for ages. 1 more official could easily fix this issue.

  56. zaggs says: Feb 7, 2012 3:08 PM

    So then didn’t Belichick put 12 men on the field earlier against the Giants when they were in the redzone for the same reason (this was Cruz’s non fumble)? Funny how that one isn’t mentioned.

  57. vtsquirm says: Feb 7, 2012 3:09 PM

    12 men = 5 yard penalty + time reset on playclock.
    13+ men = 15yard unsportsmanlike + time reset on playclock

  58. zaggs says: Feb 7, 2012 3:10 PM

    “jpb12 says: Feb 7, 2012 2:59 PM

    It’s essentially a free play for the offense. What if they completed the pass at the 20 and time ran out? They’d get one more ‘untimed play’ with a chance to score a TD. ”

    Would they? I think only if they accepted the penalty, but that means not having the result of the play.

  59. sadviking says: Feb 7, 2012 3:13 PM

    It’s essentially a free play for the offense. What if they completed the pass at the 20 and time ran out? They’d get one more ‘untimed play’ with a chance to score a TD………………the problem is, if they were to take the yards from the catch, they would have to decline the penalty and the game would be over. I think that a 12-man penalty should become a free, untimed down with 5 yard penalty added to the result if its on the defense. The offensive rule essentially would not change.

  60. braven4evr says: Feb 7, 2012 3:13 PM

    If this had happened to any other team the league wouldn’t care; but since it’s the Pats, it’s a big deal!

  61. silverhornet says: Feb 7, 2012 3:18 PM

    The play in question was completely unintentional as the 12th man, Justin Tuck was try to get off the field and when he managed to get off the field (a second or two after the snap) he had NO IMPACT on the play whatsoever. So lets get that straight first and stop thinking Coughlin did this on purpose.

    Should there be a new rule put into place however to stop the defense from intentionally doing this? Of course.

  62. murphintampa says: Feb 7, 2012 3:23 PM

    Only one problem with all of the Pats fans/Giants haters who are implying or saying that the Giants cheated: the 12th guy that the Giants were flagged for was running off the field and was one yard from the sideline when the ball was snapped. He wasn’t defending the play in any way. When the Pats got flagged in the 1Q for 12 men, they had 12 guys in the formation and actually playing defense.

  63. BTC says: Feb 7, 2012 3:24 PM

    There is something in football called a “palpably unfair act.” That it something so egregiously advantageous to one team, and obviously done on purpose, that a harsher penalty than five yards is enacted. And if a PUA negates a touchdown, the down is not replayed–a touchdown is AWARDED.

    There is your incentive for not having 20 men on the field. 12, however? Plausible deniability. Not palpably unfair.

  64. alvint69 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:25 PM

    If the offense doesn’t want time to run off the clock, they should just spike the ball and collect their penalty. If they choose to run the play anyway, they are exchanging that time for a chance at a big play or a touchdown with no risk of a turnover. It works the same way if the defense is offsides. This is theNFL, and offenses get paid millions of dollars to recognize situations where the defense is giving them free yards. Move along, nothing to see here.

    @ravensruleandharbaughisgod
    Too many men on the field is -not- like a dead ball foul, because the offense has the option of accepting the results of the play.

  65. evilboy128 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:25 PM

    Guess everyone forgets that the Patriots were called for the same penalty in the first half…where the giants had the pats shut out and were driving and went for a score? Is it all context being discussed here? or how the Pats got screwed out of the Championship…because of thats the case…ask the teams that were affected by Spygate if they feel screwed.

  66. east96st says: Feb 7, 2012 3:27 PM

    “So your saying the Giants cheated to win! put an * next to their SB win”

    Ahhh, 2sausage, I LOVE how this game is destroying you!! This is almost as much fun as winning the game. 1) You know nothing about football. You predicted Ocho Noshow would be the MVP of the Super Bowl and that NE would destroy the Giants 2) The Pats committed the same exact penalty earlier in the game while the Giants were driving to score 3) No proof at all it was intentional 4) NY will take the * when NE forfeits all three of their Super Bowl wins and hands the Lombardi trophies over to the opposing teams. After all, the Commish destroyed all the evidence of NE’s videotaping, so we all know it had to be really dirty for the NFL to destroy all the evidence. Your misery is so much fun after the last 2 weeks of your incessant trolling. Rarely does life punish an assclown such as yourself as quickly and as effectively as this.

  67. judsonjr says: Feb 7, 2012 3:33 PM

    I’m sure it was just an honest mistake, I’m sure the coaching staff said “you, get in there” and two players went in. I’m the Giants have had those kind of signal mix ups before.

  68. rcali says: Feb 7, 2012 3:36 PM

    If they don’t do something to close the hole on this one Belicheat will be using it non-stop.

  69. 13forgbp says: Feb 7, 2012 3:36 PM

    This needs to be addressed but not as much as the injury faking the Giants have mastered. JPP and Rolle did it in the Super Bowl…..fake an injury, miss a play, momentum stopped and rest achieved.

    Stop playing like girls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  70. jasncondit says: Feb 7, 2012 3:41 PM

    Easy fix that actually makes sense. It is a Defensive FALSE START type penalty. There’s no play no matter what if 12 men were on the field. Clock doesn’t move. Make it 15 yards so they don’t use it to get a quick rest.

  71. champsb3233 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:42 PM

    Go to the high school rule.

    If the officials see more than 11 on the field at the snap, blow it dead, just like a false start. 5 yards.

    If the officials don’t see it at the snap, then it’s 15 yards. And if it’s in the last two minutes, put the time back on the clock if it’s not noticed until after the play begins.

  72. castleofcheese says: Feb 7, 2012 3:51 PM

    2sausage11 says:
    Feb 7, 2012 2:18 PM
    So your saying the Giants cheated to win! put an * next to their SB win
    ——
    It’s not really cheating. It’s not the Giants’ fault that the rule isn’t properly penalized. They found a way to sort of play around the rule and I think many, if not all, smart coaches would do the same in that situation.

    And no, I’m not a Giants fan.

  73. chrisexv6 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:52 PM

    @champsb3233:

    So you’re making it even worse on the offending team based on if the officials see it or not? That doesnt seem to make sense. Look at all the other calls the officials DO see and STILL get wrong.

  74. castleofcheese says: Feb 7, 2012 3:54 PM

    champsb3233 says:
    Feb 7, 2012 3:42 PM
    Go to the high school rule.

    If the officials see more than 11 on the field at the snap, blow it dead, just like a false start. 5 yards.

    If the officials don’t see it at the snap, then it’s 15 yards. And if it’s in the last two minutes, put the time back on the clock if it’s not noticed until after the play begins.
    —-
    You want to penalize the team for the ref not seeing it right at the snap? That doesn’t make any sense.

  75. dccowboy says: Feb 7, 2012 3:56 PM

    So, just do what they do for offensive penalties in the last minute, but, instead of taking 10 seconds off the clock, put 10 seconds back on the clock from the time the play that resulted in a defensive penalty started.

    So, if the play starts with 39 secs left, the offensive team gets the result of the play or a 5 yard advance & the next play starts with 49 seconds on the clock.

  76. PFTiswhatitis says: Feb 7, 2012 3:56 PM

    “rcali says:Feb 7, 2012 3:36 PM

    If they don’t do something to close the hole on this one Belicheat will be using it non-stop.
    ————-

    oh you mean like Coughlin and Chili did?

  77. mikewatson66 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:56 PM

    Coughlin didn’t do it on purpose. First off it’s not really his style. Even forgetting that, the extra man was Tuck, and he didn’t even have his helmet on when the ball was snapped and he was running off the field. I actually remember thinking that the Pats snapped the ball really quickly for that play, which makes sense since they needed a TD, but it seemed like Tuck just didn’t realize he needed to get off the field until it was to late.

    Also if the pass had been completed the Pats would have declined the penalty and we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

  78. roadtrip3500 says: Feb 7, 2012 3:59 PM

    For everyone suggesting this is a dead-ball foul… it can’t be a dead-ball foul because it’s not illegal until the ball is snapped. The extra defender has the opportunity to get off the field before the ball is snapped. This is not the same foul as an illegal huddle on offense.

    This overreaction by the media and the masses because of 1 play a year is getting out of hand. If they’re going to put time back on the clock for this, then you need to also do it for every defensive penalty, because they all have the same net effect on the clock. A D-lineman jumps offside and the QB thinks “free play” – he doesn’t think “I should take a knee because otherwise, it’ll use up clock.”

  79. east96st says: Feb 7, 2012 4:04 PM

    “This needs to be addressed but not as much as the injury faking the Giants have mastered. JPP and Rolle did it in the Super Bowl”

    Didn’t watch the game did you? Yes, it’s completely plausible that the Giants spent all season working on having another defender drive his helmet into JPP’s head and neck at full speed in order to “fake” an injury. The only thing that could have been “faked” on that injury was whether JPP really passed the concussion test. If you want to debate that, then you may be onto something.

  80. nebster21 says: Feb 7, 2012 4:04 PM

    Of course they are not going to comment after the “New York” Giants won the superbowl. Now had the Benglas, Raiders, Redskins, Bills, Vikings, and so on had won the superbowl Goodell would have been down on the field making the change right then and there.

  81. alvint69 says: Feb 7, 2012 4:14 PM

    There is nothing to fix here! If the offense doesn’t want time to go off of the clock, they can just spike the ball and take the penalty. Offenses get paid a lot of money to understand the game situation. If they don’t, and take time they need off of the clock when they don’t have to, it’s their own fault.

  82. badmude says: Feb 7, 2012 4:17 PM

    Yeah but the league will keep the “Tuck Rule” in tact.

  83. buzzbissinger says: Feb 7, 2012 4:19 PM

    Having difficulty getting comments published as of late; guess I need to throw in “Belecheat” or “Patriots are 0-2 in Superbowls after spygate” That should do it.

  84. 2sausage11 says: Feb 7, 2012 4:21 PM

    east96st says:
    Feb 7, 2012 3:27 PM
    “So your saying the Giants cheated to win! put an * next to their SB win”

    Ahhh, 2sausage, I LOVE how this game is destroying you!! This is almost as much fun as winning the game. 1) You know nothing about football. You predicted Ocho Noshow would be the MVP of the Super Bowl and that NE would destroy the Giants 2) The Pats committed the same exact penalty earlier in the game while the Giants were driving to score 3) No proof at all it was intentional 4) NY will take the * when NE forfeits all three of their Super Bowl wins and hands the Lombardi trophies over to the opposing teams. After all, the Commish destroyed all the evidence of NE’s videotaping, so we all know it had to be really dirty for the NFL to destroy all the evidence. Your misery is so much fun after the last 2 weeks of your incessant trolling. Rarely does life punish an assclown such as yourself as quickly and as effectively as this.
    ========================
    LOL you think this is destroying me. I posted this for all the Pats haters that can’t get over the past 10yrs of NE dominance. Yes I trash talked sue me. I took it like a MAN and said congrats. The way you follow my posts makes it look like you have a man crush on me. The answer to your next question is NO i won’t date you

  85. bspurloc says: Feb 7, 2012 4:34 PM

    .
    cuz coughlin KNEW brady was going to dance around and throw the ball deep not a shorter sideline pass

    18-1 = loss
    9-7 = SB x2!

  86. danthman42 says: Feb 7, 2012 4:46 PM

    roadtrip makes a good point..are they gonna start putting time back on the clock for defensive offsides too? because as a defense, you could take this same principle and apply it to offsides (not to mention pass interference, holding, etc).

    just line up two d-ends on the offensive side of the ball…if the quarterback isn’t smart enough to immediately take a knee, he could waste 3 or 4 seconds dropping back before he gets sacked. it should be on the offense to recognize the situation and adjust accordingly.

  87. firethorn1001 says: Feb 7, 2012 4:59 PM

    ‘You can’t say ‘well we’ll use the time IF it benefits us, but if it doesn’t, and we have an incomplete or other negative outcome, then we’d like the time back.’ It doesn’t work like that.’

    ______________________________

    Umm.. ya it does. How about when the defense jumps offsides and the offense gets a ‘free play’.

  88. hooky40 says: Feb 7, 2012 5:06 PM

    Just curious, but once the ball is snapped and Tuck is on the field of play without his helmet on, shouldn’t that be 15 yard penalty?

  89. 2010worldchamppack says: Feb 7, 2012 5:06 PM

    danthman42 says:
    Feb 7, 2012 4:46 PM
    roadtrip makes a good point..are they gonna start putting time back on the clock for defensive offsides too? because as a defense, you could take this same principle and apply it to offsides (not to mention pass interference, holding, etc).

    just line up two d-ends on the offensive side of the ball…if the quarterback isn’t smart enough to immediately take a knee, he could waste 3 or 4 seconds dropping back before he gets sacked. it should be on the offense to recognize the situation and adjust accordingly.
    _________________________________

    No…you can’t lineup defensive players on the offensive side…This is called unabated to the quaterback. the play is whistled dead and the five yards are tacked on..No time would be run off the clock if the clock was stopped.

  90. briang123 says: Feb 7, 2012 5:30 PM

    Buddy Ryan actually had this in the playbook. He called it the “Polish goalline.” I kid you not.

    This rule has got to be changed this offseason. It is going to become a fad like “icing the kicker” and now that everyone is talking about it, the know-it-all-media will be criticizing coaches for NOT employing this tactic.

  91. tatum064 says: Feb 7, 2012 5:30 PM

    No rule change in the world is stopping a team with more heart that makes plays to win a Super Bowl.

    End of story.

  92. tatum064 says: Feb 7, 2012 5:34 PM

    patsfiend says:
    Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM
    Has anyone figured out if he did this on purpose? If so, kudos to him… he out-Belichicked Belichick. Losing that time was killer. By the looks of them all standing around, with no one trying to get off the field… it looked like it was on purpose to me.

    If BB did such a thing, all the “cheating” whiners would be out in force, for sure, but kudos to Coughlin (from this Pats fan) if he worked this penalty to the Giants advantage. Un-frikken-believable.

    ==============

    what was u-frikken-believable, were the 2 drops that preceded the play (Hernandez then Dion Branch), then the two other fumbles the Pats didnt come up with.

    You lost, AGAIN. Move on. Eli made an incredible throw to Mario Manningham , and you know it. It just wasn’t your day, PERIOD.

  93. melikefootball says: Feb 7, 2012 6:14 PM

    More rules for the officials that already have a hard time figuring out from game to game waht and when something is called.

  94. melikefootball says: Feb 7, 2012 6:18 PM

    Wow some other coach beat Bel I Cheat at his own game, so now as usual the league pats the Pats on the back and will look into changing the rules. Bel I Cheat gets caught cheating and what happened to him , nothing in the schme of things.

  95. deadeye says: Feb 7, 2012 6:40 PM

    Here’s the fix:

    The penalty is five yards per player over 11. so 13 players is a ten yard penalty, 14 players is fifteen yards, and so on.

    Whenever this penalty occurs with less than 2 minutes (or another time allotment if necessary), the time is put back on the clock.

    If these two aspects of the rule were adopted, it would never be in a team’s interest to have more than 11 players.

  96. rmc1995 says: Feb 7, 2012 7:19 PM

    If 12 men participate in the play it is a 15 yard penalty. This is called illegal participation. Buddy Ryan only did the goaline because the penalty is obviously very little. The scenario in this article is 12 men on the field where a player is trying to get off the field. No real advantage so only 5 yard penalty.

  97. repojam says: Feb 7, 2012 7:22 PM

    I saw that 12 men on the field with the clock runoff and chuckled to myself.

    Smart move, Coughlin.

    It’s a way to eat time on the clock. The offense can get a free shot to go down the field and if the result is good they can decline the penalty, or spike the ball to stop the clock and then take the penalty.

    He handed the Patriots some rope to see what they would do with it. 8 seconds was a long time to try to make a play. If they would have noticed, they could have spiked the ball, gotten the penalty and a stop on the clock.

  98. patsfiend says: Feb 7, 2012 7:44 PM

    tatum064 says:
    Feb 7, 2012 5:34 PM
    patsfiend says:
    Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM
    Has anyone figured out if he did this on purpose? If so, kudos to him… he out-Belichicked Belichick. Losing that time was killer. By the looks of them all standing around, with no one trying to get off the field… it looked like it was on purpose to me.

    If BB did such a thing, all the “cheating” whiners would be out in force, for sure, but kudos to Coughlin (from this Pats fan) if he worked this penalty to the Giants advantage. Un-frikken-believable.

    ==============

    what was u-frikken-believable, were the 2 drops that preceded the play (Hernandez then Dion Branch), then the two other fumbles the Pats didnt come up with.

    You lost, AGAIN. Move on. Eli made an incredible throw to Mario Manningham , and you know it. It just wasn’t your day, PERIOD.
    ===============
    The game was unbelievable, numb nuts. And yes, that play to Manningham was unbelievable, given the circumstances. Not lucky, mind you, like the Tyree catch, just unbelievable.

    Learn how to take a compliment and enjoy your SB victory instead of being so uptight about your QB and team.

  99. bozosforall says: Feb 7, 2012 8:20 PM

    patsfiend says:
    Feb 7, 2012 7:44 PM
    tatum064 says:
    Feb 7, 2012 5:34 PM
    patsfiend says:
    Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM
    Has anyone figured out if he did this on purpose? If so, kudos to him… he out-Belichicked Belichick. Losing that time was killer. By the looks of them all standing around, with no one trying to get off the field… it looked like it was on purpose to me.

    If BB did such a thing, all the “cheating” whiners would be out in force, for sure, but kudos to Coughlin (from this Pats fan) if he worked this penalty to the Giants advantage. Un-frikken-believable.

    ==============

    what was u-frikken-believable, were the 2 drops that preceded the play (Hernandez then Dion Branch), then the two other fumbles the Pats didnt come up with.

    You lost, AGAIN. Move on. Eli made an incredible throw to Mario Manningham , and you know it. It just wasn’t your day, PERIOD.
    ===============
    The game was unbelievable, numb nuts. And yes, that play to Manningham was unbelievable, given the circumstances. Not lucky, mind you, like the Tyree catch, just unbelievable.

    Learn how to take a compliment and enjoy your SB victory instead of being so uptight about your QB and team.

    __
    Too bad your fan base couldn’t follow that same advice in the early 200os…leading up to today. Pats fans have been obsessing about Peyton Manning vs. Tom Brady since forever…failing to realize that no amount of Super Bowl wins will ever change the fact that Peyton is and always will be the better QB. Heck, Eli is showing that he is better than Tom as well, given his recent head-to-head 3-1 record against Tammy Boi.

  100. mulxedge says: Feb 7, 2012 9:54 PM

    same old pats… breaking all the rules again… oh wait

  101. rexryanstoecheese says: Feb 7, 2012 10:05 PM

    given the way they fell down and had ” synchronized injuries” against the RAMS early in the year, yeah, pretty safe to say it was intentional and CHEATING. who cares, its over and done with

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