“All they admitted to was pay for performance”. That’s a nice defence, but here’s the problem

A pay for performance outside of the contract is against NFL rules
B. They made an an absolute and deliberate attempt to lie and cover it up.
(Why, if therrs nothing wrong with it?”
C. Pay for performance encourages excessive aggression, head shots, ACL targets, ankle twists and repeated head attacks All of which are EVIDENCED inthe GREGG WILLIAMS tape and upper level management is held accountable for lower level performance. EVIDENCE ISSUE. SOLVED.
P.S. Private enterprise, not a court of law
_________________________

I’ll try to handle your lack of proper syntax in order.

A. Yes, “pay for performance” is outside the rules of the NFL. But it has never been enforce. Scores of current and former players have come forth publicly and admitted that they participate in it too.

B. Yes, and that’s why Sean Payton, Mickey Loomis, and Joe Vitt have been santioned.

C. “Pay for performance” awards big plays like interceptions, bit hits, tackles behind the line of scrimmage, etc. No one has said that pay-for-performance involved things like head shot, ACL targets, etc. Any conclusion of such would be clear assumption on your part. And, again, if anything, the Williams audio proved that there was no ‘pay to injure’ program since the Saints did not try to injure any 49ers player in that game. You’re simply refusing to see the whole picture. You’re just being a simpleton who swallows what Goodell is spoon-feeding you. And that’s ok. We need people in the world like you.

P.S. Private enterprises can be sued too. That means a court of law will soon be involved.

A pay for performance outside of the contract is against NFL rules
B. They made an an absolute and deliberate attempt to lie and cover it up.
(Why, if therrs nothing wrong with it?”
C. Pay for performance encourages excessive aggression, head shots, ACL targets, ankle twists and repeated head attacks All of which are EVIDENCED inthe GREGG WILLIAMS tape and upper level management is held accountable for lower level performance. EVIDENCE ISSUE. SOLVED.
P.S. Private enterprise, not a court of law

Anyone actually listen carefully to the players during interviews?? They don’t necessarily say they weren’t bounties, they are asking “where’s the proof?” And “show me where money was exchanged”…

Well, that tells me that there was bounties, but because they werent’ able to knock out opposing players, the money probably wasn’t exchanged, so they feel confident there is no “hard proof”. In a murder-for-hire criminal case, the actual murder and exchange of money doesn’t have to take place, just the intent needs to be there.

If you believe there was no bounties, you have to ignore the incriminating audio of GW telling players to go for the ACL, Hargrove yelling “Pay me my money!” after he thought he knocked Favre out of the NFC Championship game in 09′, the coaches and player confessions, the incriminating email, and the players not really explicitly saying there was no bounties, just “no proof” that anyone was paid (2 totally different things).

The bottom line is, this isn’t a court of law and Goodell doesn’t need to “prove” it with hard evidence. All signs point to the fact there were bounties in place, and they continued them even though they were warned. He has nothing to gain by doing this, and it has brought additional negative attention to the game he is paid to run. Any reasonable person could see what was going on, but that won’t stop the 50% of you guys thinking theres some crazy conspiracy. Guys tried running bounties and they were the ones who got caught… time to move on.
___________________

You don’t live up to your handle very well.

First of all, no player has admitted to a pay-to-injure program. Some have conceded that there was a pay-for-performance pool, not unlike what happens elsewhere in the league. The NFL is jumbling the two together, because both are against the rules yet penalties for pay-for-performance have NEVER been enforced.

Secondly, the players are asking for proof because the league has said that it has based its penalties and decisions at least partly based on “forensic” evidence it has found. If forensic evidence exists linking players to a pay-to-injure program, the players deserve to be shown that evidence so they can properly appeal the suspensions.

Thirdly, GW’s audio may or may not incriminate himself in the matter, but it doesn’t incriminate the players, who went out the next day and did not commit a single penalty. Nor did they ever hit Alex Smith’s head, or Frank Gore’s head, or Crabtree’s ACL, or Kyle Williams’ concussed head. That’s a fact.

Fourthly, how do you know Hargrove is the player who yelled, “Pay me my money!”? Hargrove admitted to saying, “Favre is out,” but that’s hardly evidence of a bounty program. Sounds like a defender who is glad that the opponent’s backup QB might be entering the game. Hargrove wasn’t even in on the play that Favre was shaken up on. That was Remi Ayodelle and Bobby McCray, neither of which received league sanctions.

And you’re right: Goodell, under the current CBA structure, does not have to disclose evidence. But it would be the right thing to do at this point.

And he’ll probably have to when Vilma takes the NFL to court.

I believe the Saints are guilty of a pay-for-performance program, and not ceasing in possible “bounty” rhetoric dispite having been warned by the league to do so. That’s on them.

But I do not believe that the Saints players are guilty of carrying out a pay-to-injure program on the field of play. Yet the NFL wants me to believe that in order to protect itself from the gajillion lawsuits being filed by former players.

Let me know if I can help you anymore.

I seriously doubt Saints Head Coach Sean Payton was joking when he told the NFL that.

So who are the ones attempting to spin this? I think an entity is behind this attempted spin and PR campaign. Like the NFLPA.

Denying with a question… classic ‘tell’ of someone who’s lying to you.

Actually, this is the weakest the league has been (from a legal standpoint) in 3 decades and the NFLPA has them cornered!

The game is under fire and Warner and others are not helping things either! There is a 3 pronged attack on the NFL right now and the Saints brought about half of it on everybody because of that fat pig greg williams and the no brain coach, dirty baby payton and now the cheating mickey loomis pops up! what a bunch of white trash and a real horror story for fans may not be far away.

I mean, hey, I am just saying….Guess what he was in prison for?

Second end’s justifies means clause was the decision to take away cap space from the Skins and Cowboys because the refused to basically collude at the request of the league during an uncapped season. When I first heard that the league was taking away $30 million in cap space from the Skins I thought damn what did Snyder do now. The league initially first presented this as a case of the two teams breaking some rule untill people started asking what rule did they break and found out the league was feeding the public BS.

Third ends justifies the means case could very well be this whole New Orleans bountygate thing. No one has seen anything to justify the punishment of the 4 players suspended. Nothing.

I really have a hard time taking what this league says at face value.

The General Manager admitted the program existed; the head coach admitted the program existed; and the defensive coordinator admitted the program existed. For multiple years. As alleged by the NFL. After denying to the NFL. After trying to cover it up. There’s absolutely no stronger evidence in the world stronger than a confession. Ask any prosecutor.
—————————————————–
Yes because we know in the real world cops/prosecutors never abuse their power to pull false confessions out of folks accused of crimes until…..oops evidence like DNA comes out to throw serious doubt over those “confessions”. Ask any prosecutor……Are these the same prosecutor that almost always claims the person they’re prosecuting is guilty even when their evidence don’t stack up? Or when a defendent is found not guilty they used their favorite phrase “he wasn’t found innocent, he was found not guilty”.

In any case whatever the New Orleans coaches did or did not confessed to carries zero weight in the case against the players unless they are directly saying to the league these 4 players that you suspended were directly involved with the bounty program and this is what they did.

THEY
ADMITTED
TO
PAY
FOR
PERFORMANCE

NOT

PAY
FOR
INJURIES

BIG
DIFFERENCE

GET
IT?

There, now take a nap and a V8. You’ve worked really hard today.

These are the reasons being given for, among others, the following: Hargrove’s comments caught on tape during the NFC Championship game, Williams speech before the 49ers playoff game caught on tape, Vilma throwing down $10 grand, Hargrove’s declaration, Williams’ admission, Ornstein’s email, and on and on…

My initial belief was the bounties (intent to injure, not pay for plays) took place for a handful of games and that the suspensions seemed extreme. I do realize though some of the suspension is from how they responded to the league’s investigation. But now, with the EVERYTHING isn’t what it appears to be alibi, I’m starting to think where there’s smoke there just might be fire.

As more and more questions regarding the accuracy of the NFL’s story and more light is shed on the league’s apparent manipulation of Hargrove’s statement (a careful reading of the statement demonstrates he never said “he knew of and participated in a bounty system); their over-hyping of their “independent” counsel who reviewed the evidence (when it later comes out that she had worked for the league on two previous matters); the resignation of the league’s director of investigations in their security operation on a Friday afternoon and the
not so apparent efforts of the league’s media relations people to bury or minimize this; and now this issue with Ortenstein; it’s all starting to look a bit fishy to any objective person who hasn’t made up his or her mind based on what the NFL has released with NO substantiation.

The way to really get to the bottom of the issue is for the NFL to show what they have that would justify the most harsh punishments in NFL history. Why are so many of you on here so against seeing the evidence????

Also cwwgk, if you can find me any statement by Williams, Vitt or Payton saying they admitted to a “bounty system” over multiple years — as you have stated, please share it with us by posting it. My reading is that they apologized to a “pay for performance” program that was against league rules. No one EVER admitted to a bounty system; AGAIN this is what the league is claiming with no published evidence. And by the way, several other teams in recent history have been cited for a “pay for performance” system and not penalized including Green Bay in 2007.

Looks like Goodell has been taking some liberties with the truth.

Makes you kinda wonder if the so-called “admission” by Payton – vague and unspecific as it is – was coerced by Goodell. “Look, Sean, I have a ton of ‘evidence’ against you. I’m going to suspend you either way. Admit to it and apologize, and the suspension won’t be for life. What? No, you can’t see the evidence!”

I have yet to see a smoking gun in the case against the Saints, and everything the league has put forth so far has called into serious question the NFL’s credibility.

Pretty easy solution here: if the evidence is so persuasive, release it! Is it legally required? No, of course not. The NFL doesn’t have to release anything. But the fans don’t have to believe the NFL is telling the truth, either.

No one on the coaching staff has personally admitted to a bounty program.

Greg Williams – The league wrote his apology letter. I’m sure he was the ringleader of whatever was going on, but if he knew what he was doing was wrong, why did the league have to write his letter for him? Greg probably would admit to wrongdoing, but like I said, the only “concrete” thing we have is a league written apology. No interviews, nothing that Greg wrote our personally, etc.

Sean Payton – admitted that some sort of illicit behavior took place “on his watch”. He never actually admitted knowing about it and never mentioned the words “bounty” or “pay for performance”. In fact, when reporters asked him about the scandal, he simply said that he “took responsibility” because he “paid too much attention to one side of the ball” and that he “should have known”. (I believe those are his exact quotes, if they aren’t, they are very close. I watched his interview by the press a week or two ago at the Florida NFL meeting.)

Joe Vitt – was sent to oversee Williams by Sean Payton. Vitt says things were said that should not have been said, but denies that anything illicit was ever done on the field. In a recent press conference, he said that he has been suspended for “words” and not what happened on the field. He denies, even now, that the Saints ever set out to injure anyone. To my knowledge, he has never said the words “bounty” or “pay for performance” in an interview. Sean thought Williams might be getting out of control, and Vitt was sent to make sure that nothing affected on-field play. Vitt was supposed to babysit Williams until the season ended and Williams could be fired. If I remember correctly, I read most of this stuff on PFT or another news web site a few weeks ago.

So, maybe I am wrong, but I follow the Saints fairly closely, and I don’t think any of the coaching staff has come out and actually said that they were involved in a pay for performance program or bounty program. And, while I’m sure Greg Williams has admitted his involvement to the NFL, the NFL even wrote his apology letter!

At the end of the day, the coaches HAVE to accept whatever punishment the league dishes out because they don’t have a union. If they ever want to coach again, they HAVE to comply with what the league says. But even with this in mind, it’s pretty obvious that Sean Payton and Joe Vitt do not see things the same way as the league sees them. They feel persecuted, and they have resisted as much as possible any admission of running a “bounty” program in the way that the league is characterizing it.

Overall, I see it like this: Greg Williams was getting out of control with his words. Maybe he had some sort of pay for performance program in action. At the very least, it’s obvious he talked about targeting other players. But, the players never tried to carry out that order to intentionally injure opponents, and Payton sent Vitt to make sure that that line was never crossed, even though he knew Gregg was getting out of hand. The league knows that some fishy stuff had been going on, for a long while, and decided to go ahead and make an example of the Saints with whatever weak evidence they had. The more info that leaks, the worse the league looks… then, you also have the NFL’s head of the investigation resign, and then the league quickly says that although he was involved, he was not “the head” of the program, and then they hire a big time attorney to say the evidence is “sound” in place of actually releasing the “smoking gun” evidence… It’s just getting really ridiculous. The Saints had something bad going on in the locker room, but being railroaded by the NFL isn’t really right either.