He uses the quote, “Kill the head and the body will die.” Later, he says “we break their will, we don’t break their skill.” These two go together. Affect the head, meaning break their will. If they were literally knocking guys out of games (hitting the head and ACL), then they would be breaking their skill, so that would contradict this statement.

1) in no statement or apology does any one from the saints organization apologize/admit to “bounties”. Greg williams statement apologizes for running a pay-for-performance program (very different than pay-for-injury). on a side note, Greg Williams did not write this apology. He wrote one, the NFL didn’t like, so they wrote one for him and had him sign. kind of odd that an admission/apology wouldn’t even mention pay-to-injure or the word “bounty” (that they coined).

2) the tape you mention is a 12 minute audio clip from a video (no one has seen) of Greg Williams making a speach the night before a game. It may have been over the top, but not where is an incentive for pay, other players, or coaches mentioned or heard. it’s also interesting that most people have only heard the daming 3 minutes where Williams goes off the deep a little. But what is not heard is the remainin 9 minutes which in Williams states to hurt the other players, within the rules of the game (there is also a difference between being hurt and being injured).
I agree that williams should not have said to target an ACL, but sorry , that in no way shape or form proves a bounty program (especially since the guy who released the audio said there was not any sort bounty during that game).

your “kill the head” comment is a metaphor, and is incomplete. it’s “kill the head, and the body will die” . as in , Stop the most important part of there offense, and it will fall apart. I guess when other players say, “we are going to kill the giants tomorrow” they literally mean they are going to murder them, right? Use some critical thinking. Furthermore, nothing did happen during that game. The saints had 0 penalties. If someone intentionally trying to hurt someone, you would have seen someone intentionally trying to hurt someone. so sir, you tell me where “something really happened after all”

If that sir is enough “evidence” for you, then I pray you are never on a jury.

You said they wouldn’t apologize unless they were stupid or guilty, but you forgot one other option: cornered.

It was pretty obvious to everyone that the Saints were attacking the quarterback. Everyone except Brad Childress and his coaching staff. Instead of crying to the officials and the league, they should have adjusted … maybe left Shiancoe or Chester Taylor in to block, especially in the second half when the Saints were mauling the Viking offensive line.

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Maybe Adrian Peterson should have stayed in to block instead of fumbling the ball FIVE times.

DeSmith was all like: PSHHHHT you best be showin some evidence before I throw these dudes under the bus

Goodell was all like: Come on De! You’re my homie! We’re keeping it real! On the housey, or is it hizzy? I’m not sure how you people say it these days.

DeSmith was all like: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY YOU PEOPLE?

Who is acting entitled? Yes, we are asking for everything now. It directly affects the upcoming season. What, are we suppose to wait until after all appeals and finished before evidence is shown to anyone? That would be convenient for Goodell. If it shows there was indeed not enough evidence, then the accused could do nothing.

Where does YOUR entitlement come from? YOU are the one condemning someone with noting more than public opinion. YOU are the one making claims, not saints fans. saints fans are asking questions, you are are making declarations.

“Trust me, when this is all over with, you’ll look back and wish you weren’t begging for the demise of your team so quickly like a bunch of anxious children.”

– any further evidence will not bring about further “demise” to our team. punishments were already dolled out, and if it seems they should have been greater, then Goodell still comes out looking dishonest for covering it up. If it turns out the saints are guilty, then so be it, but that still does not make you right, or give you the ‘entitlement’ to convict by reason of popular belief.

More than likely it’s because they were likely to incriminate themselves/teammates further. The last thing the NFLPA wants would be increased penalties due to players incriminating other players.

If anything, their refusal to cooperate makes them look even more guilty.

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You realize players were not allowed to have any counsel in these meeting with Goodell, right? when you are accused of something (guilty or innocent) the first thing you are advised to do is obtain legal counsel.

but, I guess they could have gone into these meetings (without being formally accused), let the NFL write a declaration (carefully worded not to confirm or deny anything, but made that i can be implied), and then get them to sign it. (see hargrove’s and williams’ statements). That is why players were correctly advised to not attend.

to another point, suspended coaches were told , in the suspension letters, to not speak about the allegations, or further punishments may be incurred. Basically it’s Goodell saying, play along with me if you want to come back. these coaches had no way to object to these accusations. The players have the NFLPA, and are attempting to get some form of due process. you would do the same if it was you.

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You sir are everything that is wrong with society today. Saints fans are not condoning malicious intent to injure,(which i assume is why you are calling us ‘fifthly animals’), we are simply asking for evidence that this occurred.

If you have an actual point, and not just name calling, then please share it. But, when you accuse people of having ‘screwed up values’, you better have something to back that up. Otherwise, you come off looking like a bigot, and more biased than any saints fan.

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I assume the ‘vast majority agreeing’ makes it right? Until you , or your team, is affected by something you think is unjust. But I guess if the majority says it’s cool, you wouldn’t put up a fight, right?

More than likely it’s because they were likely to incriminate themselves/teammates further. The last thing the NFLPA wants would be increased penalties due to players incriminating other players.

If anything, their refusal to cooperate makes them look even more guilty.

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They are able to have council at those hearings, so the NFLPA (or attorneys) can control what the players say. Problem is without knowing the evidence, you don’t know what your trying to defend.

For example: When Payton went in the commissioners office, RG showed him an email from Ornstein and said what does the P.S. mean. Payton said a bounty but stated he never read the email.

–Well without all the evidence we didn’t know that the email wasn’t sent to Payton and the sender stated he sent it in jest because the NFL was on GWs case about bounties.

Also who the email was sent to is very important. It was sent the VP of PR for the Saints. Obviously someone who doesn’t report to Loomis or Coaches. So if he thought the email was even close to serious, it would have never made it to the coaches.

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lol, really?

I work to save people from pain and injury for a living.

Last I checked, I didnt offer to pay or receive money to intentionally injure someone. And then whine when I got caught. Your team got caught. Lighten up Francis.

It was pretty obvious to everyone that the Saints were attacking the quarterback. Everyone except Brad Childress and his coaching staff. Instead of crying to the officials and the league, they should have adjusted … maybe left Shiancoe or Chester Taylor in to block, especially in the second half when the Saints were mauling the Viking offensive line.

So you’ll have no problem when the Gestapo kicks down your door, hauls your ass off. and throws you in a cell forever without a shred of proof?

..moron…
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I suppose I wouldn’t, if I willingly signed something that said that they could.

“Everyone knows there was a bounty system”? Wow, I hope you never in position where you judge someone. How does everyone “know”? everyone has not seen any evidence. In fact, no one outside the NFL has seen any evidence.

Greg Williams’ audio, while it might be over the top, is not an indication of a bounty system whatsoever. If you would actually listen to the entire 12 minute audio, this would be even more apparent.

I applaud you for agreeing that it should be, ‘Innocent until proven guilty’, but please do not say ” Clearly they are guilty and everyone knows it. Every one knows there was a bounty program. ” .

The Vicodin thing I think happened. However addition to pain killers happens to many people, of all walks of life. Not sure how this makes someone a horrible person however. Obviously the issue got resolved privately, which is how it should have been handled anyway, no matter who the person who has the problem is.

As for bounties, the fact that no proof has been presented is important. I don’t for a second think that the Saints didn’t have a player pool for everything from sacks, to interceptions, to big hits. I also believe, as per player interviews from many teams and former players, that this is 100% common place within the NFL and has always been part of the culture. For everyone to act as if the Saints created this, manipulated the system for their gain, and were some form of “dirty” team is ridiculous. I believe Greg Williams is an idiot. But the PROOF of the situation is that no matter what he said. The players NEVER went out on the field and did anything of the sort. Once again for the haters. Not ONE SINGLE cart-off in the three years the supposed bounty system was in use. Not ONE!! Facts don’t lie…simple as that.

And the wiretapping thing. Seriously. You haven’t noticed how ESPN dropped that story like a smoking hot lava rock. Their lawyers rightfully have them counsel that although it was a great time to try and pile on the Saints. The fact that their story was 100% based on the interview of a former contract employee who was fired for stealing and who had zero physical proof of any wrong doing…well it wasn’t exactly a form story to run.

Hate on haters. And Panthers fans…prepare to still lose to the Saints.

Why do you think the NFLPA told them not to talk to the commissioner? It is because he would not give the evidence to present their side at a hearing.

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More than likely it’s because they were likely to incriminate themselves/teammates further. The last thing the NFLPA wants would be increased penalties due to players incriminating other players.

If anything, their refusal to cooperate makes them look even more guilty.

Does the NFLPA think that Goodell just picked Jonathan Vilma out of a hat and accused him of this bounty. Pretty amazing if he did and then Gregg Williams still admitted to it.

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Not picked Vilma out of a hat. Not really a vast conspiracy. Simply put the Saints were breaking the NFL’s “bounty rule”, they deserved some punishment.

But the NFL decided to use them as an example and used some bad evidence, and outrageous penalties to try and prove a point.

One of the other pieces of evidence (and probably the one that that implicates Vilma) is a statement from an ex former defensive quality control coach. Problem is he publicly had an axe to grind with the Saints.

The other evidence that was leaked so far, has turned out to be false. Hargrove statement didn’t have what Mary Jo White said it contained. Emails from outside source that proved a bounty on Rodgers and Newton, turned out to be a joke that wasn’t even sent to Payton.

So do I think the NFL has zero evidence. No I think they can prove the Saints had a pay for performance program that is a violation of the “bounty rule”. There is probably also some words used similar to GW’s speech that don’t sound very good. Do I think there is evidence of a 3 year cover up… NO.

The NFL for whatever reason decided to make a statement. Problem is they used weak evidence and excessive punishments. The collateral damage was 2 coaches and a GM involved in a Vicodin scandal, and a DC who seemed to be on the NFLs hit-list (probably for a good reason hearing his locker room speech).

Then they tried to cut a deal with the NFLPA on the player penalties. That failed.

This is a black eye on the integrity of the league front office.

*beats head against English grammar book*

eagleswin says: May 25, 2012 7:20 AM
“The NFLPA isn’t entitled to any evidence.”

So you’ll have no problem when the Gestapo kicks down your door, hauls your ass off. and throws you in a cell forever without a shred of proof?

..moron…

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I wasn’t aware that Goodell had those powers. Are you able to show me an example of Goodell doing any of those things or are you just another angry person with no real argument who thinks throwing out Nazi references and insulting people makes him look smart?

Goodell has not exceeded the powers given to him by the players in the CBA. If this was an issue important to the players, they should’ve included it in the new CBA signed last year.

How would any of you like to be accused at work and lose your job just because someone said you did something. You better have good proof otherwise I’m comming back with a lawsuit.
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You made some good points but I can tell with this comment that you have never had an employment wrangle with a company bound by EEOC laws. Most companies I’ve had experience with that are bound by those are predisposed towards credence for the “aggrieved” party if they are EEOC protected simply because of fear of lawsuit, Evidence isn’t as much of a concern

What the proof the NFL has I don’t know, but Smith was being evasive/disingenuous with his comments about proof for a “pay for injury” program. Fact is “pay for performance” programs alone have been a against NFL rules for awhile. There are signs in NFL lockerrooms about the prohibition of them. Goodell has made an example of them just like he made an example of my team with cameragate. It’s that simple.