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Players want coaches, others at bounty hearings, too

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The NFLPA wants to get to the truth, whether the NFL can handle it or not.

As a result, the union has — in addition to requesting the production of evidence that may indicate the innocence of four players whose bounty suspensions will be appealed on Monday — asked for several individuals to be present for questioning at the hearings, according to Jim Varney of the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

In a letter sent to Commissioner Roger Goodell on Thursday, the NFLPA requested that the following persons be in attendance:  (1) Sean Payton, the head coach of the Saints who has been suspended for a year; (2) Gregg Williams, the former defensive coordinator of the Saints, who now is the indefinitely suspended defensive coordinator the Rams; (3) Joe Vitt, the Saints interim head coach/linebackers coach who faces a six-game suspension when the regular season begins; (4) Mickey Loomis, the Saints G.M. who will be suspended eight games when the regular season launches; (5) Blake Williams, the son of Gregg Williams and a former Saints assistant (he now works for the Rams); (6) Michael Cerullo, a former Saints assistant who reportedly blew the whistle on the bounty situation (we’ve resisted mentioning his name as long as possible but it’s now unavoidable); (7) Joe Hummel, a former NFL Security employee who worked on the bounty investigation; and (8) Jeff Miller, the head of NFL Security, who with Hummel worked on the investigation.

It’s likely that the NFL will refuse to make the witnesses available (as to Cerullo and Hummel, the NFL has no control over either of them because they no longer work for the NFL or any NFL team).  With Commissioner Roger Goodell setting aside only one day for all four hearings, the league obviously envisions a streamlined and concise presentation of evidence.

The union believes that a more detailed and meaningful process is required, which would include an opportunity to question witnesses live at the hearing and to confront anyone who has suppled evidence indicating that the players offered money, paid money, and/or received money for the infliction of injury on opponents.

Once the NFL refuses the request (which seems inevitable), the NFLPA and the players will have additional ammunition for fighting the outcome of the appeal hearings in court, by claiming that the NFL’s in-house procedure lacks a fundamental level of fairness.  While overturning arbitration rulings in court isn’t easy, proof that the players had no meaningful shot at proving their innocence will help.

In order to get to the truth, and in order to properly test the allegations against Jonathan Vilma, Will Smith, Anthony Hargrove, and Scott Fujita, the NFLPA needs to have the ability to question persons who are aware of the things that the players did and didn’t do.  Gregg Williams and any other defensive coaches with knowledge of the pay-for-performance/bounty program are vital to that process.  (The NFL possibly intended to have Gregg Williams testify at the appeal hearings — before the cartoonish audio emerged of his rantings before the January 2012 playoff loss to the 49ers.)

The persons who handled the investigation become important to the process because they know what did and didn’t happen as the evidence was complied, and ultimately which evidence does or doesn’t point to guilty.  Hummel becomes even more important because he resigned before the investigation ended, under circumstances that have prompted speculation that he was pushed out.

Payton’s presence on the list is perhaps the most intriguing, given that he apparently had no direct knowledge of the nuts-and-bolts of the pay-for-performance/bounty program.  But as Mike Silver of Yahoo! Sports reported last week, the NFLPA previously reached out to Payton to discuss the bounty case. If Payton said anything useful, the NFLPA surely hopes he’ll repeat it on Monday.

Ultimately, it would be a surprise if the NFL relents.  The league doesn’t envision the process to require the sort of procedures that would be used in a court of law.  Given the consequences to the suspended players and in light of the fact that they strongly dispute the allegations, it seems that there should at least be an opportunity for them to demonstrate their innocence by testing the quality of the evidence on which the NFL has relied in telling the world that they are guilty.

If they don’t get it on Monday, hopefully they’ll get it somewhere else.  They deserve a chance to prove that they didn’t do it, whether they did it or not.

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43 Responses to “Players want coaches, others at bounty hearings, too”
  1. CKL says: Jun 15, 2012 9:08 AM

    When I heard this yesterday, even Tiki couldn’t have been more flabbergasted than I
    at the freaking nerve of these guys! One of their “strategies” is to try to blame the coaches for this whole thing, now they want them to testify FOR them? I’d give them the one fingered salute.

  2. medtxpack says: Jun 15, 2012 9:14 AM

    This article is a perfect example of how attorneys will slow down any possible process.

    Sounds like the NFLPA missed a bunch of important items when they were being “such hard negotiators for the players, past, present and future!”

  3. Mike Florio says: Jun 15, 2012 9:19 AM

    Yeah, why slow things down to ensure a just outcome is happening? Just hang ‘em from the highest tree and move on.

  4. xsherr says: Jun 15, 2012 9:27 AM

    Holy balls. This needs to end.

  5. robf2010 says: Jun 15, 2012 9:31 AM

    “One of their “strategies” is to try to blame the coaches for this whole thing”

    Quote a single player or coach from the Saints who has said that, please. The only ones proffering that theory are the sports pundits and talking heads.

  6. 49erstim says: Jun 15, 2012 9:33 AM

    @CKL…. Very well stated. Look at the underhanded garbage the players tried to do (including Brees). First you try to blame it squarely on the coaches and now that it seems beneficial they wanna team up. Wow.

    By the way…since Brees won’t be there will they select somebody to give him an explanation? Might wanna work that out ahead of time.

    These guys wanna turn a 1 day meeting into a drawn out court proceeding. What a joke. Maybe they should’ve negotiated SOMETHING into the CBA for the player. Nope. The NFLPA was too busy posturing to do anything remotely useful. They are going to have to accept these punishments eventually because the PA doesn’t have an actual plan. They just watched a marathon of Law and Order and then proudly proclaimed “we got this!”.

  7. pftcensorssuck says: Jun 15, 2012 9:35 AM

    The Owners “own” the NFL, and have empowered the Office of the Commissioner with the authority to mete out guilt and punishment.

    Roger Gooddell serves at the behest of these owners, and thus carries the authority designated by these owners.

    Gooddell has decided there has been a breech of the rules, and has assigned guilt and punishment he feels suitable.

    This is an arrangement agreed to by the NFLPA.

    This is NOT a court of law; Roger Gooddell does NOT serve at the behest of the players, or the NFLPA.

    He owes the players and the NFLPA nothing, whether anyone likes it or not.

    He doesn’t owe them the right to view any evidence he based his decision on; he doesn’t owe them the right to question any of the coaches, team staff, or NFL staff.

    What he owes them is an appeal hearing, in which they can argue – and prove on their own evidence – that they were not guilty as charged, or which they for more lenient punishment.

    That’s it. That’s your appeals proccess.

    Gooddell has made his decision, based on the authority vested in him and based on what evidence he has seen.

    The burden of appeal is not on HIM, it’s on the people he found guilty and punished.

    He merely exercised the authority the owners have vested his position with.

  8. gingerkid2000 says: Jun 15, 2012 9:36 AM

    So they want the coaches & GM to back up their innocence by what… taking more heat by accepting all the blame for something they already apologized for? And the players think THIS will absolve them of any wrong doing? They have an excuse for everything to avoid responsibility. Why don’t they just issue a statement that they are too stupid to be considered accountable for their own actions.

  9. maverick2560 says: Jun 15, 2012 9:38 AM

    Lawyers slowing down process…”….right…imagine if you were losing a half or whole year salary and fellow employees could prove you are innocent. Perhaps the investigator passed on evidence of your innocence. Fans have to understand that players may only play for a limited amount of years. Coaches often coach for many years.Losing a season can be devastating to a players future.Why not get the information correct the first time. Affording access to all relevant info might actually enable both sides to resolve the matter without endless appeals. Despite the above, knowing Goodell, he is not a person who accepts one proving him wrong. He likes his own way.I predict the NFL will deny the requests.

  10. eagleswin says: Jun 15, 2012 9:46 AM

    robf2010 says:
    Jun 15, 2012 9:31 AM
    “One of their “strategies” is to try to blame the coaches for this whole thing”

    Quote a single player or coach from the Saints who has said that, please. The only ones proffering that theory are the sports pundits and talking heads.

    ——————————–

    I believe it was part of Pamphillon’s backstory regarding the release of the William’s video. I have yet to hear Fujita or Drew “I need an explanation” Brees refute Pamphillon’s version of events.

  11. CKL says: Jun 15, 2012 10:02 AM

    robf2010 says:
    Jun 15, 2012 9:31 AM
    “One of their “strategies” is to try to blame the coaches for this whole thing”

    Quote a single player or coach from the Saints who has said that, please. The only ones proffering that theory are the sports pundits and talking heads.
    _______________________________
    David Cornwell, leader of the NFLCA, is the person I saw saying it. He contended that was the actual strategy of the NFLPA vis a vis Hargrove specifically.

  12. thcnote says: Jun 15, 2012 10:19 AM

    Wouldn’t it be great if it went to court and the judge looked at De and said you gave Goodell this power when you agreed to the CBA now you have to live with it. Case dismissed!

  13. mitchdms says: Jun 15, 2012 10:19 AM

    CKL, Cornwall is a lawyer for the NFLCA. And when defending Vitt, he tried to blame it all on Williams. So he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth.

    Why can’t everyone just calm down and let this play out. Any person on the planet, whether they play for a team you hate or whatever, has a right to basic principles of fairness. That doesn’t mean they are trying to blame people or not take responsibility for their actions. They are trying to defend themselves. Hopefully one of you never have to try to exercise that right when you’ve already been declared guilty.

  14. mjkelly77 says: Jun 15, 2012 10:25 AM

    Way to go, NFLPA. Attempt to make the coaches testify against the players. Tear the team apart.
    DeMoron Smith. Got spanked like a little girl in the CBA negotiation process. Now he’s turning his back on 98% of the players in an effort to defend the miscreants.

  15. mornelithe says: Jun 15, 2012 10:26 AM

    If this does go to court, no matter what’s decided I can almost guarantee that the NFL will use it’s lawyers to drag this out so long, that the players and coaches in question will end up serving their time.

    Even if a court does decide in favor of the players, the NFL could seek an immediate injunction while an appeal is filed. Which would stall the whole process even further.

  16. cwwgk says: Jun 15, 2012 10:31 AM

    The CBA provides for the player to be represented by counsel at this hearing. It also provides for the players to present any evidence, including witnesses, relevant to the proceeding. Article 46 Section 2(b).

    Only time will tell whether the League/Goodell will abide by this term. For those already predicting they won’t, isn’t that kind of like claiming a fact as true without sufficient evidence? Sound familiar?

  17. eagleswin says: Jun 15, 2012 10:43 AM

    mitchdms says:
    Jun 15, 2012 10:19 AM

    Why can’t everyone just calm down and let this play out. Any person on the planet, whether they play for a team you hate or whatever, has a right to basic principles of fairness. That doesn’t mean they are trying to blame people or not take responsibility for their actions. They are trying to defend themselves. Hopefully one of you never have to try to exercise that right when you’ve already been declared guilty.
    —————————————

    Actually, it does mean they are trying to blame other people or not take responsibility. Those are pretty much the only 2 options if they don’t accept ownership of Goodell’s findings. They actually tried the “not taking responsibility” route first by trying to get a ruling saying Goodell didn’t have the authority via a grievance. That wouldn’t have been a vindication, it would’ve been a “you can’t touch us no matter what we did” ruling.

    Also, please don’t equate this to a Brian Banks type issue. That was the judicial system (which this is not) and he spent years in jail (which the players will not).

  18. thejuddstir says: Jun 15, 2012 10:45 AM

    Just like in any court of law, Payton and these coaches are “convicted” and thus how much weight could be given to any testimony they would offer…….very little if any. It reminds me of an old saying about lawyers, ” one will lie and the other will swear to it”. I think we’re all sick and tired of the Taints and their “word games”, it’s time the NFL says, “if you want to keep playing these games, then we are going to look at increasing your punishments…end of discussion”

  19. ksm31311 says: Jun 15, 2012 10:51 AM

    mitchdms says:
    Jun 15, 2012 10:19 AM

    They are trying to defend themselves. Hopefully one of you never have to try to exercise that right when you’ve already been declared guilty.

    —————-

    I am not subject to the CBA gives Goodell all this power so I am not worried about it…

  20. robf2010 says: Jun 15, 2012 10:57 AM

    “CKL, Cornwall is a lawyer for the NFLCA. And when defending Vitt, he tried to blame it all on Williams. So he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth.”

    He was standing next to Vitt when he said that. When the microphones turned to Vitt, he would not confirm that statement.

    No player or coach from the Saints have said they intend to blame everything on coaching. Statements by Cornwall don’t count and, in my book, nothing from Pamphillon counts.

  21. mitchdms says: Jun 15, 2012 11:01 AM

    eagleswin says:

    Also, please don’t equate this to a Brian Banks type issue. That was the judicial system (which this is not) and he spent years in jail (which the players will not).
    __________________

    As stated above, they have a right to defend themselves per the CBA. I’m not making it out to be more than it is. I’m sure it would be nice for some of you for teams with the wrong logo in the sides of their helmet to be blindly punished with no recourse, but even this warped process has an opportunity for some level of fairness. Goodell can take that even further.

    These guys have had their reputations ruined. They have been accused of intentionally trying to injure their colleagues. The one who accused them and punished them will oversee their appeal. Believing that is not fair does not equal “not taking responsibility.” They tried to get a fair hearing.

    Ugh, it’s just the same thing over and over. We get it. They aren’t Eagles or Falcons or Panthers or Bucs or 49ers or Vikings so they have no rights. Nothing EVER goes beyond that jersey I guess. God forbid that if they think the NFL is wrong, they don’t just shut up and take a punishment they don’t believe is fair.

  22. daveman8403 says: Jun 15, 2012 11:03 AM

    thejuddstir says:
    Jun 15, 2012 10:45 AM
    Just like in any court of law, Payton and these coaches are “convicted” and thus how much weight could be given to any testimony they would offer…….very little if any. It reminds me of an old saying about lawyers, ” one will lie and the other will swear to it”. I think we’re all sick and tired of the Taints and their “word games”, it’s time the NFL says, “if you want to keep playing these games, then we are going to look at increasing your punishments…end of discussion”

    ———————————————————————————————————

    No one was “convicted”. people keep saying this isn’t a court of law, but then you still compare it to that. No conviction requires a trial. what payton and the other coaches got was a punishment.

    Then you go on to say defending oneself could increase punishments. Are you kidding me? you are the worst kind of person.

  23. eagleswin says: Jun 15, 2012 11:27 AM

    mitchdms says:
    Jun 15, 2012 11:01 AM

    Ugh, it’s just the same thing over and over. We get it. They aren’t Eagles or Falcons or Panthers or Bucs or 49ers or Vikings so they have no rights. Nothing EVER goes beyond that jersey I guess. God forbid that if they think the NFL is wrong, they don’t just shut up and take a punishment they don’t believe is fair.

    ————————————–

    Actually, it’s only the Saints fans who can’t see beyond the color of the jersey. Goodell is following the letter of the CBA including with the appeals process. The players are being given what they are entitled to as stated in the CBA. Unless Goodell violates procedure, which he has yet to do, it’s all useless whining on the Saints fans and NFLPA’s behalf.

    Just because you and the NFLPA want something doesn’t mean you should (or deserve) to get it.

  24. realdealsteel says: Jun 15, 2012 11:37 AM

    First, I am not a Saints fan but this is crazy.

    There is no “on the field” evidence of any bounties. Talk in the locker room is just that….TALK! Saints were in the bottom 8 of teams with the least injuries to the opposing team during Greg Williams tenure.

    So with no on the field evidence, these guys were convicted and punished and you don’t see anything wrong with that?????????

  25. thejuddstir says: Jun 15, 2012 12:16 PM

    realdealsteel says:Jun 15, 2012 11:37 AM

    First, I am not a Saints fan but this is crazy.

    There is no “on the field” evidence of any bounties. Talk in the locker room is just that….TALK!
    —————————————————–
    There doesn’t necessarily need to be “on the field evidence”…….the lockerroom talk and tape recordings you are referring to is called “conspiracy to do wrong”. People conspire to committ murder, rob banks, blow up buildings, etc. but are often arrested and charged before being allowed to carry out their deeds….it’s called conspiracy and I think we have seen enough proof to know it existed.

  26. mitchdms says: Jun 15, 2012 12:18 PM

    Anyone claiming the players are “blaming it all in the coaches” should follow Jim Varney on Twitter. The NFLPA is asking for evidence that the NFL has that actually shows Williams is not the bad guy the NFL made him out to be. They have notes and recordings supposedly proving that he did not literally mean for anyone to injure an opponent. But that doesn’t jive with the “evil Saints” story that some of you have decided to blindly believe, so please ignore it!

  27. daveman8403 says: Jun 15, 2012 12:41 PM

    thejuddstir says:
    Jun 15, 2012 12:16 PM
    realdealsteel says:Jun 15, 2012 11:37 AM

    First, I am not a Saints fan but this is crazy.

    There is no “on the field” evidence of any bounties. Talk in the locker room is just that….TALK!
    —————————————————–
    There doesn’t necessarily need to be “on the field evidence”…….the lockerroom talk and tape recordings you are referring to is called “conspiracy to do wrong”. People conspire to committ murder, rob banks, blow up buildings, etc. but are often arrested and charged before being allowed to carry out their deeds….it’s called conspiracy and I think we have seen enough proof to know it existed.

    —————————————————————————————————-

    sorry, the recordings you speak do not suggest this. please do your research. the recordings display over the top bravado, but at no time are boutnies, or pay-to-injure an opponent refered to. you need more the metaphors to accuse someone of a conspiracy.

  28. sfsaintsfan says: Jun 15, 2012 12:43 PM

    Over a three year period there were ZERO “cart-offs” or “knock-outs” of an opposing offensive player who was injured as a result of an illegal hit by the Saints Defense.

    Again, ZERO Evidence of the Field.

    Talk is all it was when it comes to a “bounty” program.

    There was a minimal “pay for performance” program for interceptions, fumble recoveries, etc., something many other teams have had in the past. Something no other team has ever suffered any sort of discipline for. The Saints were told to stop, they didn’t, and they deserved something, but not what happened to them.

  29. silentcount says: Jun 15, 2012 12:49 PM

    If in fact there were only verbal jokes about pay for performance, then the punishment Goodell imposed was way out of line. For him to publicly accuse players of “A bounty system to intentionally injure other players”, then he must provide clear evidence that can’t be disputed. If not, then he has no right to force severe financial and reputation damage to coaches and players based on exaggerations and fabrications. Even as the NFL boss, he still has to follow the rules of fair play that is required of all businesses in the USA.

  30. cwmorga says: Jun 15, 2012 12:52 PM

    thejuddstir says: Jun 15, 2012 12:16 PM

    ….it’s called conspiracy and I think we have seen enough proof to know it existed.
    —————————–

    OK, let’s hear it. I’m not talking about what Goodell has said, I’m talking about the “proof” you’re talking about. I’d like to see it. Or I’d at least like the accused players and coaches to see it.

  31. dexterismyhero says: Jun 15, 2012 1:10 PM

    fart de lis!!!!

  32. eagleswin says: Jun 15, 2012 1:33 PM

    cwmorga says:Jun 15, 2012 12:52 PM

    OK, let’s hear it. I’m not talking about what Goodell has said, I’m talking about the “proof” you’re talking about. I’d like to see it. Or I’d at least like the accused players and coaches to see it.

    ———————————

    You do know that the players will get to see the evidence that Goodell is using at the appeal hearing. They would’ve seen the evidence earlier but the NFLPA recommended that if they ignored Goodell he would go away. So to reiterate, it’s the players own fault they haven’t seen the evidence.

    The coaches? I haven’t heard a peep out of them regarding the evidence. They met with Goodell and accepted their punishments without all the blithering going on with the players.

  33. 49erstim says: Jun 15, 2012 1:40 PM

    I love how Saints fans don’t want to take the audio as literal. That is because it proves wrongdoing! Blah blah blah cartoffs blah blah blah everybody does it. Gregg Williams WAS being literal. Even if his players had NO intention of carrying out his commands he is still guilty. The Pamphilon stuff is pretty much the nail in your coffin guys. I know that I am “biased” because I am “not a Saints fan”, but I don’t really hate any teams. I love football. I don’t care for some fanbases (Cowboys for instance), but the teams themselves don’t bother me. Not every fan wants to see the Saints go down simply because of rivalry. Please grow up and join an adult conversation.

  34. mitchdms says: Jun 15, 2012 1:49 PM

    eagleswin says:

    You do know that the players will get to see the evidence that Goodell is using at the appeal hearing. They would’ve seen the evidence earlier but the NFLPA recommended that if they ignored Goodell he would go away. So to reiterate, it’s the players own fault they haven’t seen the evidence

    _________

    Please stop it. You know that Goodell ONLY has to turn over evidence he will present. He can hide anything he wishes. That is not what the NFLPA is asking for.

    In regards to the coaches, the NFLPA said today that they are asking the league to compel their attendance because the coaches are afraid of retribution from the league if they testify. When you’re readmission to the league is up to the NFL, Williams is never going to voluntarily cross them. He accepted his punishment because that was his shortest path back to football.

  35. robf2010 says: Jun 15, 2012 2:16 PM

    “The coaches? I haven’t heard a peep out of them regarding the evidence. They met with Goodell and accepted their punishments without all the blithering going on with the players.”

    Payton and Vitt appealed. Both were denied. They have no other recourse and anything they say now that doesn’t jibe with the NFL’s version of events could damage their chances at reinstatement. Vitt has since talked extensively about what his intentions were, though. He has said he was punished for “the spoken word, not the clenched fist”. The issue isn’t the rule violation, it’s the excessive punishments.

  36. bonnette95 says: Jun 15, 2012 2:16 PM

    What i dont understand is how you can suspend a player/coach if he they really didnt know that these bounties were occuring, and how one player can have a smaller suspension then another. How did they go about suspending the players?

  37. goodolebaghead says: Jun 15, 2012 2:35 PM

    If you are sick of this as I am, just keep in mind, all Goodell has to do is show some concrete evidence. That’s it and that’s all. If he doesn’t have it, then these guys are in the right, and he is the one holding all this up. If he does have it, these guys are wrong, but he is the one holding up the shut up.

    I repeat, if you’re sick of this, just blame the one guy holding the evidence that will shut everyone else up.

    IMO, he doesn’t have any, and penalized the Saints based on heresay.

  38. kodakinvegas says: Jun 15, 2012 3:04 PM

    It’s a violation to put cash or pay players outside of contacts. Come on people, Saints fans, these guys were wrong and so were the coaches. Take the punishment and quit ruining your own reputation as well as stopping the dam whining. God Almighty!

  39. mitchdms says: Jun 15, 2012 3:22 PM

    The players were not suspended for being paid money outside of heir contract. Were they, the punishments would be far less. That’s why they are fighting this. This is not hard to understand.

  40. daveman8403 says: Jun 15, 2012 3:34 PM

    kodakinvegas says:
    Jun 15, 2012 3:04 PM
    It’s a violation to put cash or pay players outside of contacts. Come on people, Saints fans, these guys were wrong and so were the coaches. Take the punishment and quit ruining your own reputation as well as stopping the dam whining. God Almighty!

    ——————————————————————————————————–

    If it is a salary cap violation, 0 of these punishments fit the crime. they are being scrutinized for intent to INJURE. Goodell has ruined their reputation by doing this. they are defending themselves. get a clue.

  41. daveman8403 says: Jun 15, 2012 3:38 PM

    49erstim says:
    Jun 15, 2012 1:40 PM
    I love how Saints fans don’t want to take the audio as literal. That is because it proves wrongdoing! Blah blah blah cartoffs blah blah blah everybody does it. Gregg Williams WAS being literal. Even if his players had NO intention of carrying out his commands he is still guilty. The Pamphilon stuff is pretty much the nail in your coffin guys. I know that I am “biased” because I am “not a Saints fan”, but I don’t really hate any teams. I love football. I don’t care for some fanbases (Cowboys for instance), but the teams themselves don’t bother me. Not every fan wants to see the Saints go down simply because of rivalry. Please grow up and join an adult conversation.

    ————————————————————————————————-

    Greg williams was being literal when he said “kill the head” ? get out of here. “cartoffs” are not mentioned in audio. try again, or better yet, listen to the entire 12 minute audio where greg williams says to do everything “withing the rules of the game” the pamphiolon stuff is not the “nail in the coffin”, especially since most was taken out of context and phamplion himself even wrote an essay stating there was no bounties while he was there.

  42. saintsfan26 says: Jun 15, 2012 4:15 PM

    Its hopeless with some of you people. You dont want fairness. You know the CBA is messed up, and you know Goodell is abusing his powers, but you are ok with it. I am looking forward to the day when Dictator Goodell decides he wants to lay the hammer down on your team just because he can. Dont expect no sympathy from this who dat ;)

  43. kodakinvegas says: Jun 15, 2012 8:10 PM

    @Caveman,

    Saints fan are ya? Almost the entire management level of the Saints have said oops, sorry, thuds ain’t right. We pologize. It the heads dirty, the rest of the bodi is too. YOU GOT THE CLUE, NOW
    TO WIT: I too can be quite condescending, butt-hole.

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