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NFLPA document: A number of problems with league evidence

File image of Saints head coach Payton talks defensive coordinator Williams before practice for Super Bowl XLIV in Coral Gables, Florida FOR NFL-BOUNTIES Reuters

When Jonathan Vilma’s attorney Peter Ginsberg left league offices this morning after a brief stay at his client’s bounty hearing, he described the league’s process as a “sham.”

It’s clear that the Players Association agrees with that stance.

According to an NFLPA document obtained by PFT, the union took five main points away from the 200 pages of documents the league turned over Friday.

They are:

1.  None of the slides the NFL presented as evidence were ever shown to any Saints coaches by league investigators.

2.  The union believes it has valid explanations from Saints players, coaches and individuals who attended defensive meetings for the information the league is using as evidence of bounties.

3.  The union believes after interviewing players who were present in the defensive meetings, that the words of former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams which are being used as the focus of their investigation were intended to be motivational, rather than literal.

4.  The union learned that Sean Payton associate Mike Ornstein told NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell personally that he never intended the email as a “bounty,” telling Goodell of a message from Williams indicating the team never took it as such.

5.  The league never informed players of any of potentially “exculpatory or mitigating evidence.”

The NFLPA also takes issue with the fact the league would not identify who created the documents or when, where, and how they were obtained, or whether players had seen them.

The NFLPA then asked for a three-day continuance to find out more answers, but that request was denied.  At that point, the Commissioner informed players the league would not offer any witnesses at Monday’s hearing who created the documents.

Other key findings from the NFLPA information include:

1.  A chart showing “Kill the head” hits, which are graded by coaches from coaches tape. That film doesn’t include sound, so officials’ whistles are inaudible, which they feel explains the high number of such hits shown in the chart.

2.  A slide prepared by Williams to illustrate “assessing the opponent.”

This slide features an image of the reality television character “Dog the Bounty Hunter,” and includes the phrase “Now its time to do our job…collect bounty$$$!” along with “No apologies! Let’s go Hunting!”

The NFLPA document refers to it as “a poorly chosen and ironic example to use but life plays havoc on us at times.”

We’ve also acquired the information the league turned over, and obviously, we’ll have more on that as the day goes along.

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42 Responses to “NFLPA document: A number of problems with league evidence”
  1. bigjdve says: Jun 18, 2012 2:32 PM

    Yeah I bet Payton’s friend did tell Goodell that he didn’t mean it for bounties.

    Just like anyone being accused of conspiracy says that they didn’t mean what they said.

  2. 49erstim says: Jun 18, 2012 2:42 PM

    “Bounty$$$”!!!??? :-) nah….. Too easy. Nothing says innocent quite like the word bounty in conjunction with dollar signs and a not-to-be-taken-literally mention of taking out Michael Crabtree’s ACL!! Are you guys being serious?

  3. CKL says: Jun 18, 2012 2:43 PM

    Am I the only one who laughed at this? Dog the bounty hunter???? “Life plays havoc on us” as a defense to that??

    “The union believes after interviewing players who were present in the defensive meetings, that the words of former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams which are being used as the focus of their investigation were intended to be motivational, rather than literal.”

    Gee, ya think??? There’s a shocker! I’m convinced!

  4. wstover says: Jun 18, 2012 2:49 PM

    Is evidence ever truly considered “ironic” if it directly points toward guilt?

  5. swampdog4life says: Jun 18, 2012 2:50 PM

    To those who don’t seem to understand what the guys are fighting for…

    At this point I don’t see Vilma fighting for playing time this year. I see him fighting for big time money in his defamation case. And from everything we’ve heard so far… he’s going to win! In fact, he has nothing to loose! Is there any argument about that? Lets agree and move on… the Saints already have and as a Saints fan… I’m comfortable with our new additions at LB’er to where his absence will be tolerable.

    The other players are actually doing the same thing… but building a civil suit in a different way. They have more to loose than Vilma.

    The bottom line usually always comes to money. CBA or not, the Federal Court system is going to be involved and this will be about the money. And, by all counts… the players are leading this battle and will get their game checks from the NFL one way or another.

    The NFL will not be able to hide behind the CBA once this goes to court. Although Godell has all power under the CBA, the law requires there to be an appearance of fairness. What’s even more interesting is the possibility of the Court system ruling that the CBA is an unlawful contract!

    Believe it or not, the NFL is in serious trouble on this one. I love football, and don’t think for a moment that our beloved sport is going to end. However, I wouldn’t rule out another work stoppage or the possible resignation of Godell.

    And for the record… there IS a difference between Pay-for-Performance and Bounty system! Get a clue

  6. thegreatgabbert says: Jun 18, 2012 2:51 PM

    Life is gonna play a little havoc on their asses.

  7. daveman8403 says: Jun 18, 2012 2:54 PM

    bigjdve says:
    Jun 18, 2012 2:32 PM
    Yeah I bet Payton’s friend did tell Goodell that he didn’t mean it for bounties.

    Just like anyone being accused of conspiracy says that they didn’t mean what they said.

    ———————————————————————————————————

    I bet you didn’t read taht email either. If you did, you would realize that it was made after the first time the saints were accused of “bountie” and it was in a P.S. line. Any rational person reading that would have realized it was sarcasm (especially since he was behind bars at the time and had no access to his money)

  8. cags777 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:00 PM

    The NFLPA is a sham for all its players. It seems to be only concerned about finding a way to gripe against Roger Goodell than protect all their players and player safety. Absolutely disgusted with them right now.

  9. abr173rd says: Jun 18, 2012 3:00 PM

    Yeah I bet Payton’s friend did tell Goodell that he didn’t mean it for bounties.

    Just like anyone being accused of conspiracy says that they didn’t mean what they said.
    ——————————————–

    Do your homework buddy, this guy was and has been Goodell’s best friend way before he knew Payton. Ornstein has also been employed by plenty of teams specifically during their Superbowl runs way before he was ever associated with the Saints…Get your facts straight, even though to most of you they don’t matter.

  10. derfshambeaux says: Jun 18, 2012 3:04 PM

    Rog: “Look, we don’t have any evidence. At least not anything concrete or substantial. But it’s not like you guys can prove that you didn’t do it, right? So we may as well let bygones be bygones and uphold your suspensions to further perpetuate the belief that we here at the NFL only care about current or future pending lawsuits, er, I mean player safety.”

  11. regulator01 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:07 PM

    the issue here is the attorneys want this to be a court of law, they let that right get away from them with the new cba, its pretty obvious the players got bad advice from counsel.gonna have to live with it now, just like the innocent dude in the gray bar hotel that got bad advice. i love pro football, but the vast majority of the player would be standing on street corners begging or drug dealers if they werent nfl players, we all know that to be the truth so why sugarcoat it or make it anything different than what it is?

  12. kidpresentable says: Jun 18, 2012 3:09 PM

    Again, what’s more likely, that the Saints ran and executed a bounty program,

    OR

    the NFL went through the effort of forcing confessions out of Payton and Williams, recording Williams saying things like “take out the head” or “take out the ACL,” recording players like Hargrove bragging about hits, calling a high number of roughing the passer penalties and unnecessary roughness penalties on the Saints in order to fit their predetermined narrative, creating a fake ledger highlighting payouts, creating fake slides with words like “Bounty$$$” and with Dog the Bounty Hunter on them, provided “joke” e-mails about bounties from outside sources, etc. all in an effort to screw over one of the NFC powerhouse teams? And for what? To create a headache for itself? So it can act like it cares about player safety in a future lawsuit? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

    Taking ye olde Occam’s razor to the story, the Saints running a bounty program seems far more likely.

  13. cssaint78 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:11 PM

    From CBS Sports Mike Freeman, who’s been bashing the Saints since day one: “CBSSports.com obtained the entire list of evidence the NFL turned over to the union. Let’s just say the evidence isn’t all that convincing.”

  14. atekipp says: Jun 18, 2012 3:12 PM

    From what I can tell from glancing at the exhibits, is that the saints players were rewarded for big plays and owed money for mental errors/penalties. This would be indicative of a pay for performance system and not a system that rewarded violent hits to take out opposing players at all costs….

  15. marvsleezy says: Jun 18, 2012 3:13 PM

    You know whats ironic, the Saints defense hasnt even been that good the past few years. Id trade all the cheap shots for a defense that could just cover people.

  16. pape27 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:20 PM

    swampdog4life says:Jun 18, 2012 2:50 PM

    In fact, he has nothing to loose!
    ————————————————–

    Thats cool. Does he have something to tighten then?

  17. jakek2 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:22 PM

    Serious question to those who believe the Saints’ punishments should stand.

    If “monopoly money” was used, would your opinion change?

  18. booker1974 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:22 PM

    If you looked at the evidence, the reference to Dog the Bounty Hunter was used as an allegory for preparations. There was a list of things that “Dog” does in preparation for going after his targets and it compared it to a defensive unit preparing to play an opposing offense. Once the job was complete Dog would collect his “bounty$$$” — the equivalent of a defense stopping the offense and collecting a win — it did not say that players would collect a bounty, it said Dog would.

    It was a very unfortunate metaphor in light of all that’s followed, but context does mean a lot, and this is ultimately one more piece of “evidence” that was taken completely out of context.

  19. wstover says: Jun 18, 2012 3:27 PM

    Maybe the lesson is:

    NFL teams, don’t joke about using a bounty system, because the league might actually believe you.

  20. regulator01 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:29 PM

    at least philly fans know a little something about football, both are asses but saint fans are all from what ive seen homer idiots.when you kid does something wrong you dont quit loving them, but you admit they did wrong, saints homers cant do it

  21. kidpresentable says: Jun 18, 2012 3:34 PM

    “Serious question to those who believe the Saints’ punishments should stand. If “monopoly money” was used, would your opinion change?”

    That depends on whether or not the players treated the monopoly money like currency. If it had value to them, like say cigarettes for prison inmates, and it motivated them to blindside Kurt Warner after an INT or dive low on Favre after a throw, then no, my opinion wouldn’t change.

  22. raidafan7 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:44 PM

    NFL evidence…..Article#18 One Saint player telling another “nice hit dog”.

    NFL evidence…..Article#4755 Saint PA playing “Who let the dogs out” after a sack

    NFL evidence….Article #2456 Unknown Saint player telling Farve in NFCCG “If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay chained to the porch”.

    What a crock of BS……

  23. chazk100 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:46 PM

    Such BS, NFLPA.

    1 “The union believes after interviewing players who were present in the defensive meetings, that the words of former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams which are being used as the focus of their investigation were intended to be motivational, rather than literal.”

    Um, no. Where else in this country can you tell an employee to ‘kill’ and ‘injure’ someone else and have it be just ‘motivational’?

    Hell, every mafioso ever convicted of ordering a hit should appeal their conviction and just say “i was being motivational”.

    2. “A chart showing “Kill the head” hits”. Right. That is “motivational”. So the coach can say ‘kill the head’ but the player is supposed to hear ‘make a clean legal hit. between the whistles. in bounds. don’t hit the head.”

    NO NO NO NO NO. That is not ‘motivational’. It is ‘instructional’.

    Everybody heard what was said. What Williams said was specific and included no suggestion that it was ‘allegorical’.

    To answer earlier posters- monopoly money wouldn’t change my mind. It’s still a reward for attempting to injure.

    And, some suggest it’s not a ‘bounty’ it’s a ‘pay for performance’ program.

    HELLO!!! That is still illegal and against the CBA!

    It’s compensation provided to some employees but not others, outside the bounds of the CBA- and not reported to IRS.

    Go rot if you think it’s all good what they did…

  24. purpleguy says: Jun 18, 2012 3:47 PM

    I can’t tell if those trashing the league’s stance on the bounty punishments are stupid, deluded by their fandom, or both. First, this ain’t a court of law where due process is mandated — it’s a CBA negotiated punishment process. If the league thinks it has enough evidence to punish, that’s all that is needed. If the players don’t like it, they should change the CBA.

    Second, the players don’t have civil litigation rights for the punishment, as they agreed to be bound by the CBA process and forum, not to mention that they agreed to release most claims as part of the settlement last fall (it’s a matter of time before that claim is dismissed). They can also try Vilma’s lame defamation lawsuit, but there are so many holes from procedural and jurisdictional validity all the way to even meeting the legal elements of defamation, that the likelihood of success is limited if not non-existent.

    Then again, if the goal is to rally those Saints fans with low IQs, they’ve done a masterful job.

  25. daybreaker2 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:49 PM

    kidpresentable says:
    Jun 18, 2012 3:09 PM
    Again, what’s more likely, that the Saints ran and executed a bounty program,

    OR

    the NFL went through the effort of forcing confessions out of Payton and Williams, recording Williams saying things like “take out the head” or “take out the ACL,” recording players like Hargrove bragging about hits, calling a high number of roughing the passer penalties and unnecessary roughness penalties on the Saints in order to fit their predetermined narrative, creating a fake ledger highlighting payouts, creating fake slides with words like “Bounty$$$” and with Dog the Bounty Hunter on them, provided “joke” e-mails about bounties from outside sources, etc. all in an effort to screw over one of the NFC powerhouse teams? And for what? To create a headache for itself? So it can act like it cares about player safety in a future lawsuit? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

    Taking ye olde Occam’s razor to the story, the Saints running a bounty program seems far more likely.

    ———-

    Lets go through this bit by bit, because I want you to understand the misinformation that is out there.

    “NFL went through the effort of forcing confessions out of Payton and Williams”

    Neither one has confessed to PAYMENT FOR INJURIES. Never. At any point in time. No coach or player has ever admitted to this.

    They have admitted to pay for performance bonuses that did NOT include injuries.

    “recording players like Hargrove bragging about hits,”

    What? This proves intent to injure? No other defensive player ever has bragged about hits???

    “calling a high number of roughing the passer penalties and unnecessary roughness penalties on the Saints”

    This is flat out wrong. The Saints were around the league average in these penalties the last 3 years.

    “creating a fake ledger highlighting payouts,”

    again, several sources have said the ledger shows payouts for big plays. NOT FOR INJURIES.

    So let me ask YOU whats more likely:

    That the NFL really does have evidence of a 3 year long pay for injury system, but just doesnt want to show us the evidence “for our own good”

    OR

    That there was one bounty on Favre, and a three year long pay for performance system that Goodell incorrectly associated with pay for injury and once he looked through all the evidence was already in too deep to admit he over reacted?

    Because everything you just said was either flat our wrong, or over-exaggerated or mis-information.

  26. FinFan68 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:51 PM

    While I understand that Goodell needs to “protect the shield”, especially from current/future lawsuits filed by players, I find it difficult to believe that he/the league made all this stuff up. The problem for Goodell is that he has tried to just punish the “ringleaders” (for lack of a better term) in the scandal. He would have been better off suspending all the players he knows to be involved rather than trying to make an example out of a few players (rather than the 20+ originally reported)–but that would have devastated the Saints and impacted a few more teams as well.

    There is no question that there was a “pay for performance” system set up in New Orleans–and likely most other NFL organizations–and that coaches and players took part in it. Many of the players have used that as a defense by saying it was for legal hits, hard tackles, picks, etc. The problem with that admission is that the players are trying to eliminate the “cart-offs” and headhunting type stuff that was also part of the SAME pool of money. There is tape of the coaches describing injury specific instructions in conjunction with a dialogue about the “bounty” money. There are also several instances of players inferring the existence of a bounty system as part of the pay for performance pool. The players are admitting to a pool of extra money and trying to deny the existence of any intent to injure key players of their opponents.

    Now their only recourse for getting caught is to publicly challenge the veracity of the “evidence” and the system through which their misdeeds are being handled. They complain of a sham only because it is actually being used “against” them. They signed off on the process and they signed off on the power vested in Goodell–all in the name of money. Now it’s time to pay the piper.

    It’s a shame that it would take a signed confession (that wasn’t later retracted) for some of you folks to believe that these guys may have done something wrong. The legal tactics in a disciplinary review process is comical.

  27. windycity0301 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:52 PM

    2. The union believes it has valid explanations from Saints players, coaches and individuals who attended defensive meetings for the information the league is using as evidence of bounties.

    3. The union believes after interviewing players who were present in the defensive meetings, that the words of former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams which are being used as the focus of their investigation were intended to be motivational, rather than literal.
    _______________________________________________

    Did I misunderstand something from a while back, weren’t the players invited to come in prior to punishments being finalized to tell their side and they refused? I imagine if they had they might’ve cleared up at least these 2 points that they’re now complaining about.

  28. booker1974 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:53 PM

    @kidpresentable, let’s go over what you’re saying:

    the NFL went through the effort of forcing confessions out of Payton and Williams,
    _________________________________
    Uh, the actually did do this. The coaches and team denied a bounty program, Goodell called them liars, first privately and then publically, and basically told them to accept everything or never coach in the NFL again. Williams’ confession was provided by the league because the statement he provided was not considered contrite enough, and admitted only a pay for performance, not bounties. Payton and Loomis issued a statement before their punishments were handed out saying that they accepted responsibility for whatever was going on and that bounties were a bad thing. Then they got hit with ridiculous suspensions, which they appealed.
    ____________________________
    recording Williams saying things like “take out the head” or “take out the ACL,”
    __________________________

    “Kill the head” was a common Williams expression — “Kill the head and the body will die” — it didn’t literally mean to kill the head, but to get inside the head — to beat a player physically you first had to do it mentally. ____________________________

    recording players like Hargrove bragging about hits,
    ______________________________

    Where? The recording of Hargrove was “Favre is out of the game!” when they thought Favre might have been out of the game — but defensive players would never get excited when an opposing quarterback got knocked out of a conference championship game, right?
    ________________________________
    calling a high number of roughing the passer penalties and unnecessary roughness penalties on the Saints in order to fit their predetermined narrative,
    __________________________________
    You’re information is wrong. The Saints have been one of the least penalized teams in the league the last few years. Against the 49er’s, the game with the infamous pregame speech you reference above, not a single flag was thrown on the Saints. And opponents injuries against the Saints over the years in question are also below the league average.

    _________________________________

    creating a fake ledger highlighting payouts,
    ________________________________

    No one said the ledger was fake, but it appeared to highlight payouts for big plays, which the players have owned up to since the day the league broke the story. In the games referenced there were no offensive players taken out of the game with injuries (except for a Giants O-lineman who was injured stepping on a loose football), but certain players did have games with sacks, forced fumbles, recoveries and interceptions. The ledger proved nothing as far as pay to injure.
    _________________________________
    creating fake slides with words like “Bounty$$$” and with Dog the Bounty Hunter on them,
    _________________________________
    It was a metaphor — look at the evidence. Dog collects Bounty$$$ after preparing and successfully capturing his prey, as defenders would collect a win after preparing for and successfully defending against their opponents.
    __________________________________
    provided “joke” e-mails about bounties from outside sources,
    ______________________________

    It was one source, a past friend of none other than Goodell himself, who has stated repeatedly that it was a joke and he was ribbing Williams about past accusations and not actually making real offers of money (not to mention he was in jail and broke).
    __________________________________
    etc. all in an effort to screw over one of the NFC powerhouse teams? And for what? To create a headache for itself? So it can act like it cares about player safety in a future lawsuit? Seems like a bit of a stretch. Taking ye olde Occam’s razor to the story, the Saints running a bounty program seems far more likely.

    _______________________________

    The concussion suits have the potential to cost the owners billions. This would be a minor headache in comparison. The Saints did have a pay for performance system, but the league has stretched a locker room pool designed to build team comraderie and turned it into a bounty system targeting opposing players for injuries.

  29. daybreaker2 says: Jun 18, 2012 3:54 PM

    chazk100 says:
    Jun 18, 2012 3:46 PM

    “A chart showing “Kill the head” hits”. Right. That is “motivational”. So the coach can say ‘kill the head’ but the player is supposed to hear ‘make a clean legal hit. between the whistles. in bounds. don’t hit the head.”

    NO NO NO NO NO. That is not ‘motivational’. It is ‘instructional’.

    Everybody heard what was said. What Williams said was specific and included no suggestion that it was ‘allegorical’.

    And, some suggest it’s not a ‘bounty’ it’s a ‘pay for performance’ program.

    HELLO!!! That is still illegal and against the CBA!

    ——

    You are wrong, here’s why:

    1) So, if saying “Kill the head” wasnt motivational, you think Gregg Williams wanted his players to literally kill them? How else do you interpret that other than “Dont let their best player beat you”?

    2) Pay for performance *is* against the CBA. But the suspensions were for player safety issues from a three year long pay for INJURY program.

    In terms of suspensions there is a HUGE difference. Because if it was JUST a pay for performance system Goodell found, there would have been NO media firestorm, and NO player and coach suspensions. There very likely would have just been monetary fines.

  30. moagecu says: Jun 18, 2012 3:55 PM

    “(especially since he was behind bars at the time and had no access to his money)”

    You mean like how prisoners are able to get drugs into prison, or how prisoners are able to speak to people outside the prison to do their “bidding” for them. If you really think he had NO access to his own money while in prison you are naive. He had email access, so he had internet access….

  31. daveman8403 says: Jun 18, 2012 4:07 PM

    @chazk100 —–

    what is wrong with you? Do you honestly think when someone say “let’s go kill the other team” they literally mean “Let’s go Kill them”

    “Kill the Head Hits” refer to the saying “kill the head and the body will die” as in, take away the best part of their offense and the offense will crumble. Yea, I am so sure he was instructing people to “kill someone’s head” . that doesn’t even make sense.

    are you being disingenuous on purpose, or are you that naive?

  32. jakek2 says: Jun 18, 2012 4:10 PM

    @kidpresentable – in my hypo, the players couldn’t use the monopoly money for anything. It was all symbolic. The only value it held was bragging rights. Does your opinion change?

  33. raidafan7 says: Jun 18, 2012 4:20 PM

    Chaz, you must not of played one down of football at any level. Your narrow minded view of comparing football to any job is exactly what Roger Goodell wants the public to believe. Not to get your feathers ruffled but from “peewee” football to the NFL the job of the defenders is to hit the person with the ball as hard as you can and dislodge the ball from him. Call it a headkill,whack,cartoff or whatever you want. Does it matter if you keep a log of who does it? Would it matter if you got paid an extra $200 for a good hit. Lets pretend no other team has a pay for performance program…. Do you think when Drew Brees drops back to pass those 4,5,6 guys chasing him don’t want to bury him in the turf? Whether their coached talked about it, showed slides or gives extra incentive to do so he wants to take him out of the game. Do you know deep down inside why they want to take Brees out? Because if he is knocked out they have a way better shot at winning. You can’t translate pre game pep talks to real world civil jobs. There are words spoken that should not be repeated to society but isn’t that the reason we all love football….It is a Savage game for men who’s careers can end on one play, if you think of it as anything else….go rot.

  34. silentcount says: Jun 18, 2012 4:37 PM

    The bottom line: There was not nearly enough evidence shown to justify the severe punishments. Sean Payton gets suspended for a year, they lose draft picks and fined half a million dollars for verbal jokes about pay for big plays? Goodell could have gone after any team for that. This will go to court and Vilma will win hands down.

  35. mervsvikes says: Jun 18, 2012 4:41 PM

    Yeah, and the NFL rigged it so that the Giants won the Super Bowl last year. Goodell also tells refs to call plays to screw your team over. Everybody that watched the saints play in the playoffs that year knew they were filthy. This being a conspiracy is as likely as 9/11 being a conspiracy. Get over yourself Saints fans.

  36. eagleswin says: Jun 18, 2012 4:42 PM

    1. None of the slides the NFL presented as evidence were ever shown to any Saints coaches by league investigators.
    ————————————————-
    I’m curious as to how the NFLPA obtained this information. The NFLPA is at war with the NFLCA and the coaches refused to stand with the players at the appeal hearing.

  37. nflfan555 says: Jun 18, 2012 5:21 PM

    WPOW, the NFLPA’s defense is the biggest load of crap I have ever read – bunch of clowns

  38. jakek2 says: Jun 18, 2012 5:24 PM

    @raidafan7

    That was a great explanation and I agree with it all but I am sure that a bunch of posters will “thumbs down” you simply because your argument is correct and they don’t have anything to say except the “players agreed Goodell could suspend them” so get over it.

    But, I’d like to expound on your point more as it pertains to the actual “pay” part of the program. Even if THIS is what Goodell is claiming to have punished the Saints for, there is absolutely NO proof that money changed hands. For all we know, Vilma gave monopoly money out for cartoffs which I’d argue is nothing more than “helmet awards”. As someone that has played more than his share of downs of organized football, I was on plenty of teams that gave them out. Posters should know that they’re not given out for doing extra community service but are given out for big (CLEAN – operative word CLEAN) hits, fumbles caused, etc. Linemen would get them for “pancake” blocks and you’d hear them yell out “pancake” when they ran over someone.

    After all this, my point is, at best….there is a lack of evidence showing the Saints even committed something arguably wrong.

  39. winner2277 says: Jun 18, 2012 6:10 PM

    mervsvikes,

    You need to get over the loss and quit trying to blame the Saints fans and the Saints because your team SUCKS and is probably one of the worse in the entire NFL. Now at least TRY and keep up next time son.

  40. mervsvikes says: Jun 18, 2012 6:32 PM

    Winner, you sir are what people like to refer to as stupid. Unlike saints fans, I can get over stuff. We lost. Why do you imbeciles think you can end an argument with “your team is worse than mine”. Yeah, great, I get it. You’re a 6 year old. Now can we discuss your team cheating the rest of the league and trying to end careers and then playing stupid like the rest of your fan base?

  41. SmurfJuice says: Jun 18, 2012 10:15 PM

    There are entirely too many mouths being fed by the NFL.

    Back in the day, many players didn’t even have an agent. Now, they have agents, financial advisers, the obligatory posse, lawyers, image consultants, personal chefs, chauffeurs, etc.

    And it used to be Pete Rozelle. Not Pete, his underlings, a dozen lawyers, former prosecutors, PR staff (that obviously is failing in their jobs), etc.

    More money = more problems. As the income and salaries spiraled, more people latched onto the players and/or league, and we can’t have a simple “yes” or “no” anymore. Everything is related to spin, perception, image. Quit worrying about how things will look, and get back to the basics of your business: An entertaining game.

  42. bleed4philly says: Jun 18, 2012 10:36 PM

    Football is starting to suck

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