Seriously every time i hear these stains players in the news defending themselves, (esp brees or fujita or vilma) the same words they release to the media the Sheep saints fans repeat as if its their own words in forums like this. You moron saints fans dont know half of what you think you do. Shut up. All of your conviction and attitude will once again be brought to the light as mindless stupidity.

Was it wrong? Yes. Do most teams (probably all teams) do it? Yes. Listening to his locker room talk, yes, he was talking about injuries to other players. ALL other teams look at their opponents’ injury list and plan their defense accordingly. So let’s not be holier than thou, crap.

So what happened for their head coach to get a one year ban? I believe that it was not about bounties on the offenses. It was about the NFL telling the Saints to stop their bounty system because of the ex-players lawsuits. And, of course, the Saints didn’t stop, so the NFL came down hard on them.

I believe it is as simple as that.

This thing has gone way too long all because of the sissified way the NFL handled the whole thing. If you have something on a team (anyone of them), Call them in, present your information or evidence and go from there (punishments or sanctions) BEFORE it gets to be a media scandall like this has become.
And YES I understand where Brees is coming from of his remarks how the MEDIA blows every thing up trying to sensualize the story for more readers on the poll. Remember if readers read their stories – thats job security for them. Between the media, lawyers, and law-suits – this country is fast going to hell.

Just because the IRS or the Feds aren’t currently looking into the matter (yet) doesn’t mean that it still wasn’t immoral. You can defend the bounty issue all you want because I’m not talking about the bounties but you can’t tell me the Saints didn’t do anything wrong. Feed me the same “everyone was doing it” line in the end the Saints were the ones that got caught.

Were the punishments harsh? Yes but bounty or not you can’t tell me that they were completely clean. If we find out the bounties didn’t happen, yes there needs to be apologise and the suspensions need to be reduced but you can’t tell me they did nothing to bring this themselves. The nfl didn’t force them to keep using a pay-for-performance system. After they were asked to stop.

Call me a Saints hater or whatever you will (I am a Falcon fan but I actually enjoy having a relevant rivalry with another great team and I would be disappointed if it came out the Falcons had been doing the same thing) the only point I’m trying to make is you can’t scream “We are innocent!”. Though a thief may not have committed murder they still committed theft.

What I want to know is, how long before someone realizes that if some of these players and coaches were actually telling the truth to investigators when they denied participating in a pay-to-injure system, they should not be punished for lying or impeding the investigation into it either?

One last thing – I have used the term “Let’s get our ducks in a row” many times in business, and it was always about COMPLYING with the rules of the company, not about skirting them, or lying about it. Has anyone on Park Avenue or in the media ever bothered to ask Sean Payton what he meant?

I never stated what was true or not, I am not sure where you got that from my post. What I did say is that when (and if) this goes to court, then they better have corroboration. The fact that they admitted that they did not have it against the Vitt Farve allegation, and they did not punish him for that instance does not negate the rest of the document on its face. You seem to be an expert on who has what corroboration, as well as reading into what I am thinking apparently… None of us know the truth, and it will only come out as this plays out in its finality.

Well, it seems that the arbitrators have RULED that this is NOT a cap issue or they could have heard the appeals so that kills your federal crime theory. As for earned income not being reported goes, I don’t remember hearing about the Feds or IRS looking into this matter for any reason. Care to provide a web site that says they are? Care to provide a web site that confirms this was a cap issue?

If a person out right lies to your face about something that did not require them to do so and you know what they said was a lie and let them know it, then that person tells you something else, are you going to believe them outright the second time around? Will you now question whether what they are now telling you is the truth or not. They have NO corroboration on the other things they said as well. Every time they say that someone told them this or that or admitted to this or that, that person comes forward denying that calling the NFL liars. Now, tell us, what is a lie and what is not. You seem to be an expert on something being a lie or not by reading it or when the NFL says it or not.

The TRUTH is every time something else comes out that makes the NFL look more like liars that fabricated their evidence, a Saints hater such as yourself come in here wanting to move on and forget about it. It’ s TOO late for that now. They have drawn the line and we have crossed it. The ONLY way you will be able to move on from this is if the NFL finally comes out and says outright that their evidence, after further review is not what they thought it was and they are dismissing all punishments handed out thus far with back pay for all. Leave the fine and lost 2nd round draft pick taken away this year and say that is the penalty for pay for performance and then take away every other teams 2nd round draft pick in next years draft. The Saints will be the ONLY team in the NFL allowed a 2nd round pick next year. A public apology for Vilma, Payton, Loomis, Williams, Vitt, Hargrove, Fajita and Smith. Let not these things happen and you can forget about quietly hiding in the shadows and this being forgotten. You sure did not care to forget about it when you were so sure the NFL did what was right and proved it, now did you? That’s what I am taking about.

For all the fans that state that the NFL has been ruined, etc., you are truly missing the big picture as it relates to RG and the NFL. RG is appointed at the behest of the owners (all 32), and they act/vote as a majority rules organization. If the majority agree with RG, he will stay as the commissioner. The NFL has steadily increased their revenue over the last decade, and are expected to continue to do so (I think it is supposed to double in the next several years with new TV contracts, etc). Pretty impressive with a recession. However, it is not the fan that blogs on an internet site that is causing the value of the NFL to increase, it is the advertisers that pay for the TV rights and stadium rights, etc that get into mom, and dads, and little Billy’s heads so the next time that they run to the supermarket or decide which company to buy a car from, they go with the advertisers product. RG and the owners know that the hardcore fans will complain and cry conspiracy/or anti-conspiracy (depending on what you believe) but still be there come September. Just like you have been there every year for decades. It is the new blood, the general fan that the NFL is looking to attract. And they do that by appearances (likely minus the facts that the Saints fans are clamoring for). And the other owners (as well as Benson) whom are raking in $$$ hand over fist will continue to keep RG as commissioner as long as that continues to happen. It is not fair, it is just economics and rich people getting richer. There is a reason that Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder did not fight the NFL in court over their loss of salary cap $. Tens of millions of dollars is a pittance compared to the potential losses and overall teams decrease in value if collusion is proven. Once again, nothing personal, just a business decision.

@ampking101

What you are saying is reasonable and fair. But the Pay for Performance is NOT what they have been punished for and not what their reputations are tarnished with. The Saints and all these men will forever be known for “Bounties” and “Pay to injure”. If they are going to be punished it should be for what they actually did. Everyone keeps saying the NFL is making a mountain out of a molehill. What that translates too is yes we had a PFP, punish us for that if you will, but do not say we were out to hurt people when we were not.

===================

Like I said I am not sold that there was or there wasn’t a bounty program. I do agree though that the accusation for the bounties (if not true) was wrong. They should have been punished for the pay-for-performance since that was going on without a doubt. So I completely agree with you on that part.

===================

pay for performance illegal? on a federal level? care to explain that? last time i checked people’s paychecks were based on ‘performance’.

===================

When it isn’t being counted towards the Saints cap (which they obviously weren’t which is what started this whole bounty mess) that means it isn’t being counted towards “earnings” and therefore not being counted towards taxes. Therefore it IS illegal on a federal level. Not to mention it also makes it very close to a gambling type setup when not stated in their contract.

That can’t be disputed no matter who is doing so. Whether your opinion on this is that it isn’t a big deal it still makes it illegal. Do I think the taxes part is B.S.? Yes but it tarnishes the whole idea of the cap (which keeps track of how much money the players are earning to keep the league competition fair and balanced unlike the days when Dallas and San Fran could just buy players because their owners had more money than the other owners).

It seems to me that Vitt could actually sue the NFL for defamation and have an easier time, if he can prove he didn’t pay the money, then Vilma will. He would have an easier time proving malice on the part of the NFL because the NFL just acknowledged the accuracy of its evidence against Vitt, yet published it anyway, which would seem to me to be reckless.

————————————

The NFL is just continuing to give the players and the NFLPA for fuel for a Federal lawsuit because that’s where this is headed unless Roger and his goons man up, and admit that this was poorly investigated, and the punishments inappropriately handled.

This never was about the Saints – It was about CYA from former player lawsuits on player safety.

The Saints simply became an easy target because of GW’s arrogance.

Pay for performance? Absolutely. No one denies that. Did Payton try to sweep it under the rug? I don’t know.

Were there bounties to injure players? Just show the real damn proof. So far, there hasn’t been any.

The NFL and its labor/legal team, particularly Pas & Birch, are quickly becoming a public joke.

Roger, you’re not far behind.

Breaking news on Monday showing Saints coaches and players who contributed to “bounties”

Now, two of the accused have publicly and vehemently denied the so-called NFL typed written evidence. Today a third with Joe Vitt.

Then Tony Hargrove holds a press conference on the NFL’s lawn to call them a lie, and challenge his accusers to a lie detector test. The NFL’s response?

They stand by their findings. Just take the lie detector test, NFL.

…And you still believe there wasn’t a poorly investigated and media fueled rush to judgement?

When there are problems in a company, always start at the top for answers…. NFL owners, it’s time for a change at the top.

Goodell and his goons are destroying your product. Don’t think it can happen to you?

Ask MLB.

Some people might be misled, but the truth eventually comes out.

Shame on you NFL, for destroying men’s lives and reputations so callously.

You said: “You’ll notice that Vitt doesn’t say “I’m innocent of any participation or knowledge of the programs” he says “I didn’t participate in this one instance”.

Here is what Vitt said: “I did not pledge any money for any incentive, pay for performance, bounty or any other alleged program in connection with any game, including the 2010 NFC Championship.”

So he does not say as you said “I didn’t participate in this one instance”, he actually does say he NEVER participated in any bounty system in this game or ANY OTHER GAME.

===================

pay for performance illegal? on a federal level? care to explain that? last time i checked people’s paychecks were based on ‘performance’.

What you are saying is reasonable and fair. But the Pay for Performance is NOT what they have been punished for and not what their reputations are tarnished with. The Saints and all these men will forever be known for “Bounties” and “Pay to injure”. If they are going to be punished it should be for what they actually did. Everyone keeps saying the NFL is making a mountain out of a molehill. What that translates too is yes we had a PFP, punish us for that if you will, but do not say we were out to hurt people when we were not.

below is Vilma’s unabridged statement without any interpretation and it seems to contradict what you posted about him:

I am shocked and extremely disappointed by the NFL’s decision to suspend me for the 2012 season. Commissioner Roger Goodell has refused to share any of the supposed evidence he claims supports this unprecedented punishment. The reason is clear: I never paid, or intended to pay, $10,000, or any amount of money, to any player for knocking Kurt Warner, Brett Favre or any other player out of the 2009 Divisional playoff game, 2010 NFC Championship Game or any other game.

I never set out to intentionally hurt any player and never enticed any teammate to intentionally hurt another player. I also never put any money into a bounty pool or helped to create a bounty pool intended to pay out money for injuring other players. I have always conducted myself in a professional and proud manner.

I intend to fight this injustice, to defend my reputation, to stand up for my team and my profession, and to send a clear signal to the commissioner that the process has failed, to the detriment of me, my teammates, the New Orleans Saints and the game.

Yes! Thank you! Even if you think the Saints players and coaches are dirt and did everything the NFL said, why are you still not outraged at just how SHOTTY, SHADY, and UNTRUTHFUL the NFL has been on this case?!? That should still upset people, regardless of their stance on the Saints specifically, and yet it doesn’t at all. The NFL has been proven incompetent and untruthful in several instances. Every time they leak “evidence” it either just backs up the players case or has major holes in it. How does this not concern people?!?

Because it seems to me that when you unequivocally use a guy’s name as a source of information, even have a former prosecutor read the evidence at an appeal’s hearing where she says this particular guy told us about this particular evidence and we will use this evidence against the players, but then come out the next day and say “oh no, this particular guy couldn’t be fully connected with the action that we say he did so we will now officially say he wasn’t sanctioned because of the information we gave him, but we will definitely use what he said against the players even though it’s not strong enough to use against him,” that something defintely isn’t kosher. And that is not too mention every other piece of information that has recently come out that says what the NFL is saying or has said is blatantly wrong or a lie. I’m not a conspiracy theorist by nature but “Something is rotten in Denmark.”

That said, we all know there was a pay-for-performance program which has been admitted. Everyone seems to forget that this is still illegal (even on a federal level). Do other teams do this? Probably. Did they get caught? No. Wete the Saints directly asked to stop? Yes. Did they? No.

In the end bounties or not what the Saints were doing was still illegal (Just like everyone gives the Pats a hard time over spygate but they weren’t the only ones doing it, only the ones that got caught). So to say that the Saints are scapegoats is only half true (if the bounties turn out to be false) because all in all, they were still doing something illegal, were asked to stop, still continued, and got caught.