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NFLPA counsel says voice expert supports Hargrove’s position

Anthony_Hargrove_96470257_620x350 Getty Images

The NFLPA continues to believe that the supposed smoking gun in the bounty case is neither smoking nor a gun.

The league insists that the notorious sideline video from the 2009 NFC title game proves that former Saints defensive end Anthony Hargrove said, “Bobby, give me my money” after learning that Vikings quarterback Brett Favre may have suffered a broken leg.

NFLPA outside counsel Richard Smith tells Tim Rohan of the New York Times that a voice recognition expert has concluded Hargrove’s voice doesn’t match the voice on the tape.  The expert also said that Hargrove’s lips aren’t visible when the key phrase is uttered (it didn’t take an expert for that), and that the first word uttered wasn’t “Bobby” but the product of a player and a coach speaking at the same time.

That last point seems like a stretch.  And it’s also irrelevant.  It doesn’t matter whether Hargrove says “Bobby”; it matters whether he said “give me my money.”  Trying too hard to prove that he didn’t say “Bobby” invites the same kind of scrutiny the league has encountered by trying too hard to prove that Hargrove said “give me my money.”

And the league continues to try too hard to prove that Hargrove said “give me my money.”

The NFL’s stubbornness serves only to fuel the NFLPA’s belief that the investigation has failed to get to the truth.  Smith calls the interpretation of the Hargrove video “my best piece of evidence because it calls into question the thoroughness, the accuracy and veracity of the NFL’s investigation and their statements.”

The league nevertheless continues to insist that Hargrove is the person who said “give me my money,” with no apparent effort to have an expert analyze the voices captured by the NFL Films microphones.

“It’s just unfathomable to me that the NFL would simply rely on their naked eye and their ears to determine if a player has said something,” Smith said.

And so, while there seems to be evidence of a pay-for-performance program that rewarded players for applying clean, legal hits that forced opponents to leave a given game temporarily or otherwise, the pieces of proof that have become public have permitted the NFLPA to pounce on actual or perceived defects.

“Anything that we have tested, been able to test, like the videotape, is crumbling,” Smith said.

It’s hard to know whether the entire case would crumble under scrutiny, because the league has refused to give Smith access to coach Sean Payton, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, all of the documents generated by the investigation, and the statements of everyone interviewed by the league.

And that’s unfortunate.  The league is convinced the Saints used a bounty program.  Every piece of evidence that the league either has leaked or released exhibits very real flaws.  By not allowing the NFLPA to see the rest of the evidence, it’s impossible to know whether it’s flawed, too.

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57 Responses to “NFLPA counsel says voice expert supports Hargrove’s position”
  1. joetoronto says: Jun 29, 2012 5:44 AM

    This is unreal, SOMEBODY on the Saints roster said it.

    SMH.

  2. mburkett1980 says: Jun 29, 2012 6:02 AM

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…Watch Will Smith during the video. When the words “give me my money” are uttered, his eye contact goes directly to Remi Ayodele, as if he is listening to him say something.

  3. drgreenstreak says: Jun 29, 2012 6:03 AM

    Imagine that! A lawyer hires an expert witness that finds evidence in favor of the lawyer’s client. Imagine that!

  4. drgreenstreak says: Jun 29, 2012 6:17 AM

    Florio loves all this lawyer drama.

    The players involved are not going to win. The NFL does not have to show anything other than the money. They have done that.

    The NFL needs to occupy the Saints franchise and bring that Dixie empire of Benson’s into reality check mode. Mike Karney is but one who thinks Williams crap wouldn’t exist without Loomis and Payton. I agree.

  5. cwwgk says: Jun 29, 2012 6:29 AM

    Ah, the “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain defense.” Usually only works in the movies and the media. Too bad neither of those forums have the ability to vacate the suspensions at issue.

  6. realityonetwo says: Jun 29, 2012 6:30 AM

    And then the NFL trots out its “expert” who says that it is Hargrove’s voice. Nice try, bozos.

  7. samapoc says: Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM

    @joetoronto The video doesn’t show that it was said by anyone one the Saints roster.

  8. Reggie's Bush says: Jun 29, 2012 7:00 AM

    This is unreal, someone stole a bike in Toronto – screw it lets just arrest joetoronto then

  9. besdayz says: Jun 29, 2012 7:07 AM

    This is unreal, SOMEBODY on the Saints roster said it.

    —————————————-

    Thats not the point. But why are you maligning a single player and ruining his name when you can’t say for sure it was him.

    You don’t just through the baby out with the bathwater. This is why we have a thorough criminal justice system in this country. For due process, so people don’t get burned at the stake like at Salem for being supposed witches by hearsay.

    Saints had a pay for performance scheme but there is no proof so far that it was bounty besides the locker room talk, ie GW speech.

    This is the most botched case in NFL history. They had a guilty party who committed a fairly minor offense, relative to the league, and they turned it into a crusade. Now they will pay, and will ultimately lead to more suits, tied up in court, and Goodell’s detumnescence in a few years.

  10. mwindle1973 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:08 AM

    More ridiculousness. Richard Smith has stated over and over, and does in the article referenced, that this video is his best piece of evidence. So what if it’s not Hargrove! That doesn’t make the whole body of evidence crumble. The NFLPA can’t seem to get that they aren’t defending a criminal in court. They can’t just cast petty reasonable doubt on one aspect of the case. It’s basically a situation where the word evidence is overused. The NFL gather info through an investigation and concluded that their was a pay to injure scheme. Like any employer, they didn’t wait to have enough proof to win a criminal conviction, they simply disciplined there employees. And BTW I still think it’s Hargrove on the tape. Let’s see what the league’s analyst said. Or better yet lets bring a few independent experts in and see what they say. And anyway the NFL maintains that what the video proves is that Hargrove knew what was going on. It’s a corroborative piece of evidence. They never said it could stand on it’s own. It’s easy to tear it apart when viewing it alone. But in the context of all the evidence, it’s just too coincidental that someone on the Dline asks for their money right after being told that Favre’s leg is broke. Hargrove is being punished for lying and obstructing the league investigation. All they have to show (notice I didn’t say prove) is he knew about it. How long until training camp starts? The media really needs something else to focus on. THis isn’t news really. Once a court case is filed and the NFLPA/players win then it will be news.

  11. gingerkid2000 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:13 AM

    Whether Hargrove said it or if he knows who did and they are more than willing to let him take the blame, this whole thing reeks of cowardice. Bottom line, a “pay for performance” program was going on, these guys were investigated for it, asked to stop, and tried to cover it up. Even in a court of law the punishment is always stiffer when the defendant pleads not guilty. Of course in a court of law a defendant will supply evidence that they are not guilty to a judge or jury. Not go whining straight to the press like child.

  12. skinsnut says: Jun 29, 2012 7:14 AM

    I don’t understand, doesn’t D. Smith also represent the players that were targeted by the bounty hunters? What is he trying to do….prevent the NFL from protecting the players?

    Just seems weird.

  13. drozman says: Jun 29, 2012 7:16 AM

    Maybe it is just me, but this topic is beginning to feel like a birther/truther thing. Everyday a new issue without fact in each direction.

  14. mwindle1973 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:17 AM

    mburkett1980 says: Jun 29, 2012 6:02 AM

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…Watch Will Smith during the video. When the words “give me my money” are uttered, his eye contact goes directly to Remi Ayodele, as if he is listening to him say something.

    ________________

    I agree it’s possible. Because Ayodele is the one who hit Favre’s leg on the play before they went to the sideline. That’s the one where McCray hit him high first, right after Favre releases the ball, then Ayodele dives and hooks the leg.

  15. easyeddie says: Jun 29, 2012 7:27 AM

    Everyone knows that so-called “experts” hired by the accused or their proxies are so so trustworthy. Nice try NFLPA.

  16. mwindle1973 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:28 AM

    I guess Drew Brees said on Letterman last night that he speaks for all NFL fans and we are sick of hearing about the bounty. I would assume that would mean we are sick of hearing him talk about it too? I guess he says they are all so shocked and the NFL needs to put the hard evidence out there and tell what the accusations are. Then guys will be punished if they need to be and if not they be exonerated. But I thought they were already punished, and I thought the NFL already made it’s accusations. I just got one question…is this what these guys do when they lose a game. Do they go around denying saying they were robbed and providing a million reasons why they really didn’t lose the game.

  17. jpb12 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:45 AM

    What a circus. Players trying to say there was no bounty based on fact you can’t prove who said give me my money?

    Sean Payton is not coaching this year. Greg Williams may never coach again based on his audio tape.

    These guys proclaim their innocence until there is solid proof… which the League won’t give because it would expose guys who the players call ‘snitches’… which would deter future guys from snitching.

    Goodell is the commissioner. Deal with it.

  18. sj39 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:46 AM

    The hell with it, suspend the whole team, front office, all of operations, everyone for a year and be done with it.

  19. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 7:48 AM

    Our country’s court system is founded on the premise “innocent until proven guilty”. Why with this bounty debacle should it be otherwise? If the NFL is so confident in it’s belief and proof that these players are guilty of a “pay to inujure” program, why don’t they just release all they have and put this matter to rest? For those of you bashing Vilma, etc for demanding the evidence, what if you were being fired from your job for something that you know you didn’t do? You would take them to court and make them prove it. These players deserve the same right whether you like it or not. And if the NFL can’t prove it, they deserve to be reinstated, whether you like it or not. Show us the evidence Goodell and prove it, if you can.

  20. dryzzt23 says: Jun 29, 2012 8:00 AM

    Oh I am SURE that the NFLPA’s “counsel” is speaking as an “unbiased” person.

    Yeah right

  21. gtodriver says: Jun 29, 2012 8:12 AM

    samapoc says:

    “The video doesn’t show that it was said by anyone one the Saints roster.”

    Actually, it does. Why? Because the directional microphone used along with the video camera – the words “give me my money” obviously came from someone either in the video or very near to those on the video. That only includes people from the Saints organization.

    The nearest hot dog or beer vendor (that have been claimed as a possibility) are behind the camera and microphone – and the directional microphone would not have captured that sound.

    Positive proof that someone on the Saints team was expecting to get paid if Brett’s leg/ankle was broken.

    If no one on the Saints will man up and admit to it, then we know all we need to know about the integrity of the Saints organization.

  22. shepardwong says: Jun 29, 2012 8:36 AM

    NFLPA counsel says Magic 8 ball supports Hargrove’s position

    NFLPA outside counsel Richard Smith tells Tim Rohan of the New York Times that the Magic 8 ball has concluded that it was “Very Doubtful” that it was Hargrove’s voice on the tape in question.

    A league spokesmen questioned the validity of the 8 Ball’s ruling by pointing out the verdict in question was produced only after two prior shakes that prompted them to “ask again later” and urged them to “concentrate and ask again”.

  23. skoobyfl says: Jun 29, 2012 8:39 AM

    Keep beating up the Warden & see if you ever get out of the hole (I watched Shawshank last night).

  24. ytsejamer1 says: Jun 29, 2012 8:42 AM

    I can’t imagine how the NFL claims could ever hold up in any court. Even the court of public opinion doesn’t buy what the NFL is selling…and that court is usually quick and decisive!

    This is the one thing I really don’t care for with the NFL…they’re really heavy handed and one-sided…to a fault.

    We’re going to suspend you for giving $1000 for a big play…but we’ll also fine or suspend you $15k for making a big play.

  25. truthfactory says: Jun 29, 2012 8:46 AM

    And that’s unfortunate. The league is convinced the Saints used a bounty program. Every piece of evidence that the league either has leaked or released exhibits very real flaws. By not allowing the NFLPA to see the rest of the evidence, it’s impossible to know whether it’s flawed, too.
    ———–

    I would say the fact that SOMEBODY said “give me my money” as they were discussing Favre’s injury and potentially leaving the game is pretty solid evidence there was a bounty. It may not have been Hargrove, but someone definately said it.

  26. roadbiscuit says: Jun 29, 2012 8:54 AM

    Earl Heyman: “I was right there, right there in that closeup [of the defensive huddle] they’re talking about,” Heyman said. “Every time they came off the field I was standing right there talking to them, and I know who said it, and I can say with 100 percent accuracy who said it, and I know 100 percent it wasn’t Anthony.”

    “I don’t want to incriminate anyone. I will if I have to, if it goes to court or something like that, I’d testify. But I don’t want to get caught up in this or that or getting more people in trouble. That’s not what I’m about, but I am about protecting Anthony because he’s my friend and he’s been done a great injustice and he’s been done wrong.”

  27. calv23 says: Jun 29, 2012 8:59 AM

    If there was no bounty, there STILL would have been talk about a payout for a sack on the play.

  28. kidpresentable says: Jun 29, 2012 9:02 AM

    It may not have been Hargrove saying “give me my money” but, it was said by a Saint giving weight to the NFL saying a bounty program was happening and it was endorsed by the players. The other damning thing is that it took Hargrove four months to deny that it was his voice. It may not be his voice, but it’s likely he was “talking the talk” of the bounty program, so when the NFL told him that they had audio of him, he seemed to believe it was true rather than reacting in a way a non-guilty person would have.

  29. jazz321 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:09 AM

    If the voice don’t fit, you have to acquit.

    For those bozos saying well someone said it, therefore there is a bounty. I believe the NFPA is saying if all you got on Hargrove is the voice and now we can prove it wasn’t him, he should not be suspended. And I agree.

    The NFL should be working with the NFPA to determine what happened and then God-dell can make his ruling. This seems more like the NFL came to a conclusion and has massaged the data to fit their conclusion. I am not saying there was no “bounty.” But I do believe the extent of the bounty is nowhere near what the NFL originally portrayed. The only evidence shown refers to the 2009 Vikings game and a pep talk in the 2011 49er game. BTW, if this so called Bounty program is so bad (as the NFL is portraying it), why was the NFL willing to let the Saints slide for two more years. Why did they not come down hard on them before the start of the 201o season. That’s ;ike a cop letting you go for speeding and then two years later when he catchesyou again, he gives you two tickets, one showing the violation in 2009.

    Coached suspensions should be upheld and the players should be given a reduction in half or rescinded.

    Let’s let the Supreme Court decide! They do such a wonderful job.

  30. stayclassyasheville says: Jun 29, 2012 9:12 AM

    I can’t wait for training camps to open and for this “man-drama” to go away!
    Wake me when it’s opening kickoff!

  31. pftcensorssuck says: Jun 29, 2012 9:18 AM

    So if the NFLPA went to all that trouble analyizing the voice on the tape, who did they find out WAS the person talking?

    You mean they’re NOT going to give us that?

    Shocking!

    Apparently the Union wants us to believe no one said “Bobby, give me my money!”

  32. cmstrick says: Jun 29, 2012 9:21 AM

    Oh, wow! You know, I would be SO willing to believe that Goodell just has it in for the Saints and just made up the whole thing if it weren’t for the fact that half the coaching staff has already admitted to doing it.

    Somebody was doing all that hitting. Somebody was trying to knock opponents out of the game. It sure as hell wasn’t the coaches themselves.

    Do I care that there was a bounty program in the first place? Not really. Football is a violent sport and people are going to get hit, get hit hard, and get hurt. To a defender, a bounty is nothing more than a performance incentive.

    But this is just another case of lawyers getting in the way. They’re guilty. We all know they’re guilty. Why do we need to spend three years poring over evidence looking for loopholes and ‘maybe’s?

  33. thejuddstir says: Jun 29, 2012 9:24 AM

    The NFL’s “voice expert” will say it is Hargrove…….but who cares, becuz “somebody” said it. It’s like 4 bank robbers arguing about who was the driver of the get-away car and who wasn’t. The players and the NFLPA want to divert the attention from the facts (somebody said it becuz it’s on tape) to arguing about semantics.

  34. thejuddstir says: Jun 29, 2012 9:27 AM

    If this “voice expert” is indeed an expert, then he should be able to tell us who did say it. Didn’t think they would……so much for that arguement then. Guilty as charged.

  35. marcinhouston says: Jun 29, 2012 9:30 AM

    This wasn’t even much evidence anyway, and now it is not even true. “Give me my money” is pretty similar to “show me the money” which was a line from Jerry Maguire which basically meant “i made good plays, i want them to affect my next contract negotiation.” Obviously players like Ayodele and Hargrove with lower tier salaries would hope that big sacks in the playoffs would result in higher contract salaries very soon with the offseason just months away, and that would be very much on their minds. If Josh Hamilton hits a home run and then tells his teammates “where is my money?” wouldn’t it be just as plausible to interpret him to mean that he hopes the big play will result in a bigger contract than that the Rangers have a pay for performance pool?

  36. rayburns says: Jun 29, 2012 9:30 AM

    Remember when it was all about the game?

  37. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:42 AM

    just release the evidence and let the truth fall where it may. unless the NFL releases it, this will never go away.

  38. rockthered1286 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:42 AM

    What’s worse in this case: Remi letting Hargrove take the fall to protect himself, or the NFLPA not asking Remi to step up. Clear your name son. Why don’t you let them cross analyze and compare your voice to the recording (if they haven’t done so already and are ommitting incriminating evidence)? It’s bad enough that Hargrove thinks the NFLPA has his back 100% when they obviously don’t, but on top of that it almost seems like the Saints are thinking “Hargrove isn’t with this organization anymore, but Remi is. Let’s not lose one more man on the field.” and effectively keeping players quiet about his involvement.

    That being said, I’m sick of the BS. Make a ruling, tell the Saints to shut up and deal with it and lets move on already.

  39. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:44 AM

    all the more reason to release the evidence and prove who said it. if not hargrove, then he does not deserve a suspension, the real culprit does.

  40. roadbiscuit says: Jun 29, 2012 9:45 AM

    >The other damning thing is that it took Hargrove four months to deny that it was his voice.

    Up until Hargrove released his statement saying that the NFL had misrepresented what his declaration said the voice on the tape was “unidentified”. So why would he have had to deny it was his?

  41. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:49 AM

    it won’t stop until they realease all the evidence against the saints. that’s the only thing that will satisfy.

  42. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:52 AM

    we all DO NOT know they are guilty. what’s the reason the NFL won’t release the evidence? it just smells of arrogance and questions. if it’s so obvious then let us see it. simple as that.

  43. zaggs says: Jun 29, 2012 9:57 AM

    Well it sounds a heck of alot more like Hargrove than it does Remi.

  44. musicman495 says: Jun 29, 2012 9:58 AM

    joetoronto says: Jun 29, 2012 5:44 AM

    This is unreal, SOMEBODY on the Saints roster said it.

    SMH.
    —————–
    Well, then, by all means let’s suspend the wrong guy.

    Yes, this IS unreal.

  45. gtodriver says: Jun 29, 2012 10:02 AM

    kellij666 says:

    “what’s the reason the NFL won’t release the evidence?”

    To protect the innocent from retribution.

    If the names of the confidential informants were released, they’d need to be put in a witness protection program to protect them from the Saints team and their fans.

    If the Saints players and management had stopped the bounty program in 2010 – there would not have been the need for the heavy penalties that have now been rightfully accessed.

    The Saints players and management dug there own hole.

  46. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:08 AM

    just because “somebody” said it doesn’t mean that Hargrove should be suspended for saying it and there in lies the problem. You need proof of who it is in order to suspend him and evidently you do not. The right person should be punished. You can’t punish anyone for the sake of punishing someone.

  47. musicman495 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:09 AM

    kidpresentable says: Jun 29, 2012 9:02 AM

    … The other damning thing is that it took Hargrove four months to deny that it was his voice.
    ——————————
    Uh, Hargrove was suspended May 2, the video of the sideline chatter was just released a few days ago. How is that four months? The whole point of this outrage is that the league NEVER showed their evidence to the players accused of these actions before the suspensions were handed down.

  48. sdisme says: Jun 29, 2012 10:11 AM

    truthfactory says: Jun 29, 2012 8:46 AM

    I would say the fact that SOMEBODY said “give me my money” as they were discussing Favre’s injury and potentially leaving the game is pretty solid evidence there was a bounty. It may not have been Hargrove, but someone definately said it.

    __________________________________

    But what is the difference between that and Brian Cushing saying “stacks for sacks”? (with hand motions like raining dollar bills)

  49. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:13 AM

    that’s ridiculous. if you are man enough to make an accusation you should man enough to stand up in a court of law. in this country you have the right to confront your accuser and eventually this will all land in a court of law and that’s exactly what will happen. DEAL WITH IT.

  50. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:14 AM

    we are not denying it was said or that it was said by the someone on the saints sideline but shouldn’t the right person be punished? how would you like it if you were being punished for something you didn’t do?

  51. saltyminga says: Jun 29, 2012 10:23 AM

    I am a voice expert, and he did not say “give me my money”, he said “Frederick, I much fear trouble with the fuselage.”

  52. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:28 AM

    no, what it shows is that the players are on one side and the NFL on the other. funny how the players who were supposedly “targeted” could care less and don’t have a problem with it but fans of other teams do.

  53. bclemms says: Jun 29, 2012 10:28 AM

    Ok, I’ll admit. I was first in line with my pitchfork and flame ready to burn the Saints at the stake when the bounty stuff broke. I’ll also be the first to admit that I thought the Saints’ fanbase was showing new levels of insanity to deny all the evidence the NFL has brought to the table but the doubt the NFL has continued to cast over and over for months now has me thinking the NFL is the one that should be burning.

    If the NFL’s case is so solid then why have they misrepresented and flat out lied about every single piece of so called “evidence” to date? Why is it each time the players claim something they end up being proven correct and the NFL ends up with egg plastered on their face? The powerpoint “evidence” release looked like something a 3rd grader would put together with enough garbage fill to reach his 1000 word minimum.

    Since this bounty story broke it has been one contradiction, misleading information, one-sided goof’s, lazy investigations, flat out lies and manipulation by the league after another. I’m actually kind of embarrased by some of the comments I’ve made and the realization it took this long to see how off Goodell is on this rampage to prove he is worried about player safety.

    Saints fans, I feel bad for you guys. These are, by all accounts, really good people Goodell is throwing under the bus to push his agenda.

    I hope the attorneys in the concussion suit start using this “bounty evidence” against the league. I mean, Vilma had 64 “kill the head” shots in 2009 but the league didn’t penalize him once during the game, didn’t fine him once and didn’t suspend him once for these “violent” hits. How can they let a player get away with 64 helmet to helmet blows without one flag? I guess “kill the head” could have a different meaning but if the NFL claims it doesn’t then who is to argue with them?

  54. kellij666 says: Jun 29, 2012 10:29 AM

    then shouldn’t they suspend Ayodele? herein lies the problem. it looks like the wrong person is being punished.

  55. clownworldmovies says: Jun 29, 2012 10:49 AM

    gtodriver says:
    Jun 29, 2012 10:02 AM
    kellij666 says:

    “what’s the reason the NFL won’t release the evidence?”

    To protect the innocent from retribution.

    You think they’re protecting the innocent? Try being a Saints’ fan going to an away game this year, and tell me the innocent are being protected by this.

  56. tduhe1 says: Jun 29, 2012 2:16 PM

    FINALLY! Somebody out there with some common sense voicing his opinion. Thanks from Who Dat Nation:

    bclemms says:Jun 29, 2012 10:28 AM

    Ok, I’ll admit. I was first in line with my pitchfork and flame ready to burn the Saints at the stake when the bounty stuff broke. I’ll also be the first to admit that I thought the Saints’ fanbase was showing new levels of insanity to deny all the evidence the NFL has brought to the table but the doubt the NFL has continued to cast over and over for months now has me thinking the NFL is the one that should be burning.

    If the NFL’s case is so solid then why have they misrepresented and flat out lied about every single piece of so called “evidence” to date? Why is it each time the players claim something they end up being proven correct and the NFL ends up with egg plastered on their face? The powerpoint “evidence” release looked like something a 3rd grader would put together with enough garbage fill to reach his 1000 word minimum.

  57. FinFan68 says: Jun 29, 2012 2:58 PM

    OK, fine. Ask that expert whose voice it really is then. That guy can get a suspension, Hargrove will be vindicated from this particular accusation, the league can reduce his suspension a little (but still keep some of it for all the other things he supposedly did) and the NFLPA can no longer call the process a sham. This is the kind of stuff they should have been working on for the appeal, but they chose to complain about the process rather than trying to help their membership or, God forbid, help determine the truth.

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