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Griffin’s knee creates more concern than advertised

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And now we know why Dr. James Andrews is pumping the brakes regarding the presumption that Robert Griffin III will become Adrian Peterson II.

Per a league source, there is much greater concern regarding Griffin’s knee than anyone connected to the Redskins or Griffin has publicly conceded.

Yes, he tore his LCL and his ACL.  Yes, it won’t be easy to rehab both ligaments at the same time.  Yes, they had to invade his healthy knee for a patellar tendon graft.  And, yes, Griffin suffered a partial tear of his meniscus when tearing the ACL, a common consequence when the ACL is damaged.

All of those pieces of information have made their way to the media.  But the entire result is a stew of concerns that has created a far more negative vibe in and around the Griffin camp than the pronouncements of optimism and quasi-guarantees that he’ll be good as new by September 2013.

Apart from the fact that there’s no way to know how the ACL will rehab, the biggest concern, as the source explained it, is the damage to Griffin’s cartilage.  With the ACL in the right knee now torn twice in less than four years, Griffin has lost enough cartilage in his knee to raise concerns about how much remains and how long it will last.  Eventually, Griffin could be dealing with bone-on-bone contact, and the chronic pain that goes along with it.

And he’s still only 22.

The first ACL tear was long forgotten during Griffin’s stellar rookie season.  In fact, most fans didn’t even know about it, because Griffin was hardly a nationally-known name at the time the injury happened.  But there was a real physical risk when the Redskins gave up three first-round picks and a second-round pick to get Griffin, and less than a year after making the trade the team now has to wonder whether Griffin ever will be the same — and if he is how long that will possibly last.

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130 Responses to “Griffin’s knee creates more concern than advertised”
  1. nfloracle says: Jan 12, 2013 2:19 PM

    Shanahan, this is on you, man.

  2. bobulated says: Jan 12, 2013 2:21 PM

    “Real physical risk” compounded by a coach who either couldn’t see or refused to admit how badly injured the future they mortgaged the franchise for was.

  3. skinsfan6892 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:23 PM

    Stop with all the media circus and hysteria. Let the man heal in peace without all your so called diagnosis.

  4. jdbar50 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:23 PM

    By III it was nice while it lasted!

  5. kd75 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:24 PM

    I hear Tebow will be available.

  6. wayne1693 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:25 PM

    Nothing like a little Doom & Gloom to enhance a great football weekend…

  7. ty46 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:25 PM

    Well he has to wear a brace forever and be a pocket passer.

  8. kingbeason52 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:26 PM

    He is the Derrick Rose of the NFL at this point in time..

  9. fdugrad says: Jan 12, 2013 2:26 PM

    Do you STILL insist it was the correct call to play him over the last several games and to KEEP him in throughout the LAST game coach?! Kind of makes the pro baseball team in town look a bit more intelligent, not to mention long-term oriented and concerned, doesn’t it?

  10. bucrightoff says: Jan 12, 2013 2:27 PM

    Basically, unless he adapts and becomes a drop back pocket passer who occasionally runs, his career is going to be short. Personally I’d try and trade him now and recoup whatever you can, doubt he plays more than 5 seasons.

  11. nepatriots128154 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:28 PM

    Man, I really, really hope this guy doesn’t become a what-if or a historical footnote.

  12. abninf says: Jan 12, 2013 2:28 PM

    Year 1 and the coach already broke that kid. Still amazed he was out running the option when he could hardly walk onto the field. Oh I forgot, Griffin told him he was fine.

  13. bleedgreen says: Jan 12, 2013 2:28 PM

    Thats the point I’ve been making to skins fans. Its not that he won’t be able to run or play like he did in a year or so. Its that its already had 2 strikes. It seems reasonable to think that its going to be a much more fragile joint now. And on an area that can, and will have a LOT of stress put on it, its a real concern. You can have 2 concussions and then not hit your head for 7-8 months as a QB. You ARE going to get hit, though. And you WILL put stress and weird angles of torsion on your knee. Its fair to question how long it will last, on top of, will it get back to 100%.

  14. tigrrrr says: Jan 12, 2013 2:29 PM

    awesome job shanahan… sure he chose to play in a dangerous game with an injury and ultimately it was his choice and risk, but a better coach would have yanked him before that main damage. Greed ruins.

  15. fcrraptor720 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:29 PM

    Holy cow poor kid god bless him

  16. kregaway says: Jan 12, 2013 2:29 PM

    He was always too small, skinny, and injury prone. Crazy how the debate of him over Luck last year before the draft even existed.

  17. gr8whte says: Jan 12, 2013 2:30 PM

    I thought shannahan should have been fired for allowing griffin to make the decision on playing. If I were his parents I would ream Shan for allowing their son to take such risks. Bittersweet for me to say this but this is what he gets for being selfish and insecure by deciding to stay in and claim he gives them the best chance to win, true, but not on one knee. A selfless teammate not scared of the backup would have stayed on the sideline and watched Captain Kirk play and root him on, coach him up, discuss what he is seeing from the side. He did win them a few games.

  18. jerseygirl005 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:30 PM

    It’s possible to have a full recovery, but it would be a long recovery. I tore my meniscus to shreds playing college ball and the cartilage wore down until my tibia started to fraction from grinding with my femur. I received a cadaver transplant and Carticel injections. Then a year of rehab and I would say my knee is good as new (I do wear a brace for additional support and protection).

  19. hoosiercolts says: Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM

    See Redskins fans. I said at the beginning of the season the RGIII may have a better rookie season (which is debatable) but Luck would have the better and longer career. Sucks, because he’s a nice dude with tons of talent….. but if you take his wheels away..he’s just gonna be good and not great. Sorry you mortgaged your franchises future for him.

  20. ar1888 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM

    The way Griffin plays is exciting to watch. But as a Colts fan i was happy Andrew Luck was taken number one overall. To me it was fairly obvious that a injury like this was going to happen to Griffin at some point. I would worry less if this injury happened to Luck since he is a natural pocket QB.

  21. bobzilla1001 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM

    Might as well just cancel the entire 2013 NFL season.

  22. benroethlisberger7 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM

    He will be out of the league in five years.

  23. cheddarrob says: Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM

    How does keeping him in the game have to do with bone on bone? And I am pretty sure a lot of NFL players deal with bone on bone pain since they have been playing their whole life…

  24. bigblue5611 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:33 PM

    Bye bye Skins and enjoy not having any first round picks the next 2 years

  25. deadeye says: Jan 12, 2013 2:33 PM

    RG3′s injury history is the reason I didn’t trade up for him in my dynasty fantasy football league. He has everything you look for in a franchise QB. But his built is thin and he didn’t make it through college without a serious injury. It’s no shock he’s experiencing the same things now in the bigger/faster NFL.

    RG3, you are a class act. May your recovery be swift and complete.

  26. stopdk12 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:34 PM

    let it heal… Bone to bone, maybe when he’s 40… Not 23. Shut up, let the kid get better

  27. gadzod says: Jan 12, 2013 2:35 PM

    I don’t care what people THINK I would do if I was Shanny. He should have known (if he scouted him correctly) about the prior knee injury. If it were me, I would have known that knee had a serious injury before and and he was literally dragging it. He would have come out and my other rookie would have been on the field with a 14-0 lead. Shanny should have know that knee is printed to a serious injury like that. Who cares if RG3 said he’s OK? If he says he’s hurt and can’t play, the critics would have been on him just as bad as they were on Jay Cutler. Protect him from himself and let him get healthy. He hurt Washington more than he helped them by playing on one leg.

  28. germaine93 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:36 PM

    The Derrick rose of the nba??? 1. Derrick rose never tore his acl in college.
    2. Derrick rose didn’t tear his lcl ever.
    3. What does that even mean?

  29. phillyforlife says: Jan 12, 2013 2:36 PM

    Mike Shanahan is a player killer will ride them into the dirt just for his own goals. Look what he did to Terrell Davis in Denver rode and rode untill he couldnt play anymore.

  30. x50cal says: Jan 12, 2013 2:36 PM

    Great job coach for running a long-term career for a qb

  31. jamesx27 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:37 PM

    God bless em. Tho he has more money now than Ill make in a lifetime I wish the young man the best in his career.

  32. believeland1954 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:39 PM

    “stew of concerns”? Spell check?

  33. mclovinib says: Jan 12, 2013 2:39 PM

    it took the skins 20 years to find a decent qb and the genius runs him out there on a bum knee and the kid might never be the same..nice shanny, real nice

  34. leatherface2012 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:39 PM

    thank god there’s nfl on for 2 days. the way this country is going i need a chicken wing eating junk food diversion….god bless america….or what will be left of it in 4 years

  35. chattanola says: Jan 12, 2013 2:39 PM

    Consider that to be/become a pocket passer, Griffin will be asking that knee to repeatedly endure a 5-step drop back and plant to throw off of it. Bone on bone? Cringe.

    And the chickens are coming home to roost at SST speed. I’m looking at you Mike Shanahan.

  36. moerawn says: Jan 12, 2013 2:40 PM

    Is it a cornball knee injury?

  37. raenray2 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:41 PM

    I’m surprised the Redskins gave up so much for a QB that is exactly like Vick. He will also be hurt all the time like Vick. If Vick never went to jail he would of probably been done with football by now cause of his injuries. Vick never had a full season and RGIII won’t either. I feel bad for him cause he is so young but he is going to have to be broking down by his QB coach and taught how to be a legit pocket passer.

  38. g3rshw1n says: Jan 12, 2013 2:41 PM

    I LOVE any detrimental Redskins news.

  39. SilentMajority says: Jan 12, 2013 2:42 PM

    Nothing a little HGH won’t cure…

  40. droopyyydog1 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:43 PM

    Well at least he didn’t have micro-fracture surgery. Oh thats after next season.

    Seriously I hope he can come back and be the player he flashed this year. But there has to be some come sense when it comes to his rehab and you know not rush him out there to win a meaningless game in September.

  41. rmal83 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:44 PM

    As a Cowboys fan. I wish him a speedy recovery and hope he can heal 100%, He is a phenomenal athlete and deserves to be on the field!

  42. ripster65 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:46 PM

    The first ACL tear was long forgotten during Griffin’s stellar rookie season. In fact, most fans didn’t even know about it, because Griffin was hardly a nationally-known name at the time the injury happened.
    ————————————————-
    So are you saying he tore his ACL ealier this year, “his stellar rookie season”, prior to this? Maybe in Sept or Oct? If I remember correctly, he was quite nationaly known during this, his stellar rookie season. Or do you mean his first year at Baylor? Because Griffin was Big 12 Offensive Freshman of the Year that year. He was injured during his sophmore year. sheesh…make sense.

  43. thebrownswillalwaysloose says: Jan 12, 2013 2:48 PM

    I’ll say! The last four playoff teams are set to do their thing, and you PFT folk are still blathering over the “soap opra like” Griffin news. I think RG3 is great, but what’s done is done. Happy he could be back to start next season. But let’s finish this one first. Let’s get it on!

  44. zachari14 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:49 PM

    Sounds very similar to former Portland Trailblazer Brandon Roy’s knee/cartilidge situation…

  45. macbull says: Jan 12, 2013 2:50 PM

    QBs that run a lot, have a hard time staying healthy in the NFL and RG3 is no different.

    The good news concerning RG3, he is more than just a running QB. Looking back at John Elway, he had terrible knees but still had a decent career.

    The Redskins need to focus on protecting RG3 as he transitions from a running/passing QB to a passing QB.

  46. nflfan1 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:50 PM

    Not a Redskins fan but an NFL fan. He’s good for the league. Here’s hoping that he gets healthy again sooner than later.

  47. cavafox says: Jan 12, 2013 2:53 PM

    Hines ward had no ACL for his entire NFL career. Didn’t seem to stop him.

  48. nflsecurity862 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:54 PM

    Remember when the Browns were crucified for not mortgaging their future to draft a running QB?

  49. mengland629 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:57 PM

    Hope he has a healthy and speedy recovery. It was rough watching him this year as a cowboy’s fan, but it would be even worse to see what could be a great career cut short

  50. legalguy60 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:58 PM

    He might hobble around like Namath did..sad.

  51. asublimeday says: Jan 12, 2013 2:58 PM

    Hail to the knees!

  52. daknight93 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:59 PM

    Last time I checked, RG3 is a quarterback with a healthy throwing arm…I can understand if he was a running back with these injuries, which would raise many red flags against him, but he is a quarterback and he just has to adjust being a pure-pocket quarterback and he will be good…if he had major shoulder injury like Drew Brees in 05, then that is a major concern, RG3 doesn’t throw the ball with his knees, not a big deal…IMO

  53. bobzilla1001 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:00 PM

    The reason the Redskins drafted TWO quarterbacks last spring was because they knew Griffin’s durability was questionable.
    The organization’s hunch is about to be realized. Kirk Cousins is no slouch.

  54. chipwade says: Jan 12, 2013 3:00 PM

    He has a terrific arm and makes great decisions. Mold him more like an Aaron Rodgers when he can run occasionally. He was hurt running the ball against the Falcons and the Ravens. Protect him from those hits and he will have a long and productive career.

  55. mj1818 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:00 PM

    He has enough talent to be a pocket passer

  56. getadealdonealready says: Jan 12, 2013 3:03 PM

    RG III is good for the game, and seems like a class act. I hope he is able to recover from this and play at a high level again! With that said you have to have concern for his overall health and having a long term career, unless he is able to change his style of play to some extent.

  57. emperorzero says: Jan 12, 2013 3:04 PM

    You worry how long a “mobile” quarterback will last in the league, but it’s absolutely criminal how the Redskins handled RG3. I don’t care if he said he was good to go, Shanahan is the coach and should have told him to sit. Hide his helmet, do whatever you have to do to keep him off the field, but no way does RG3 go out there again. It’s sad to think that such a rare talent may possibly be done after only one season. I’m not suggesting he’d retire, but an RG3 that can’t move like RG3 isn’t RG3.

  58. countduku says: Jan 12, 2013 3:05 PM

    see you in 2014 RGIII. don’t try to be a hero.

  59. yourmomcalled says: Jan 12, 2013 3:05 PM

    ripster65 says:
    Jan 12, 2013 2:46 PM
    The first ACL tear was long forgotten during Griffin’s stellar rookie season. In fact, most fans didn’t even know about it, because Griffin was hardly a nationally-known name at the time the injury happened.
    ————————————————-
    So are you saying he tore his ACL ealier this year, “his stellar rookie season”, prior to this? Maybe in Sept or Oct? If I remember correctly, he was quite nationaly known during this, his stellar rookie season. Or do you mean his first year at Baylor? Because Griffin was Big 12 Offensive Freshman of the Year that year. He was injured during his sophmore year. sheesh…make sense.
    ————————-

    Not that difficult to understand. First ACL tear (in college) forgotten during his NFL rookie season. Most fans didn’t know who he was when he tore it at Baylor.

  60. blueballz77 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:06 PM

    Take a shotgun point it an inch from your need and pull. Now you have a good idea what that knee looks like.Its so bad the best surgeon on the planet is in doubt. Even the vikings knew they had to sit Ponder and start Webb,And they are worse!!! then RG III and cousins. Well in 2 years new coach gm and hope for a franchise Qb .Go Giants

  61. bartlettruss says: Jan 12, 2013 3:08 PM

    Redskins fans are hoping for a miracle now. I don’t know of any player who’s come back from a 3rd ACL and now RG3 has to avoid that for the rest of his career.

    In order to avoid a third tear he’ll probably have to give up a significant part of what makes him so dangerous during the game. I wish him the best, but if the Redskins were a publicly traded stock the price would be plummeting.

    Maybe he’ll at least get a few good seasons in, but he’ll be a what-if story guaranteed.

  62. shlort says: Jan 12, 2013 3:10 PM

    Griffin could outplay 3/4ths of the QBs in the league if Dr. Andrews amputated his leg.

    To be realistic about the situation, it dosnt much matter. Shanahan said about mid-season that the running plays for Griff were only in there for this season. Shanahan knows Griffin can throw better than a lot of guys, and so does anyone who has watch the Redskins this past season. The Redskins dont even need to make a pocket passer out of Griffin, he can already do it and do it well.

    Blame Shanahan all you want folks. The Coach doesnt make the call on whether a player is injured or not. He can ask the player if they are alright to return after the medical staff looks the player over. If the player says he is good to play, the coach puts him back in the game if cleared. That is how it works, and that is how both Shanahan and Griffin have addressed the situation. I dont get why people feel the need to blame the coaching staff for Griffin getting injured. I guess people need to blame someone for it. Must be liberals.

  63. njgiant1982 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:11 PM

    Personally, I think Cousins can put up a few wins until the bye week. III shouldn’t come back till then. kid needs to heal. …. did I just say that? go giants!

  64. edwinmoses says: Jan 12, 2013 3:13 PM

    Fire Shannahan already. Who doesn’t take Griffin out that game the way he was limping and his past knee issues. Shanny has the biggest unwarranted ego ever!

  65. rg3andthensome says: Jan 12, 2013 3:15 PM

    This is retarded…..STOP it with these kind of specualtive, uniformed reports!

    Seriously, what in the hell are you trying to say Florio? What makes you an expert and gives you the right to post something like this, beyond Freedom of Speech, and maybe your amendment- Freedom of Speculation. This is beyond ridiculous…Just settle in and make your picks for the rest of the season….The Skins will take care of their own and be ready for 2013.

  66. redandgoldhitman52 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:16 PM

    no1 cares about rg3 knee. just draft another qb cuz rg3 is done

  67. rollore says: Jan 12, 2013 3:19 PM

    Kd75, I’d get Tebow in a NY heartbeat! I can see him healing the QB’s knee and anyone else who’s hurt!

  68. mattw70 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:19 PM

    “I don’t know of any player who’s come back from a 3rd ACL and now RG3 has to avoid that for the rest of his career.”

    Thomas Davis just done it this season.105 tackles.

  69. eddardofthehousestark says: Jan 12, 2013 3:22 PM

    “It’s possible to have a full recovery, but it would be a long recovery. I tore my meniscus to shreds playing college ball and the cartilage wore down until my tibia started to fraction from grinding with my femur. I received a cadaver transplant and Carticel injections. Then a year of rehab and I would say my knee is good as new (I do wear a brace for additional support and protection).”

    I’m assuming you don’t play professional football, Jerseygirl005. That’s all well and good, and I’m glad it worked for you, but you aren’t putting the pressure on your knee that is required of a professional football player.

  70. harperquinn says: Jan 12, 2013 3:22 PM

    kregaway says: Jan 12, 2013 2:29 PM

    He was always too small, skinny, and injury prone. Crazy how the debate of him over Luck last year before the draft even existed.
    =====================================

    The kid has incredible talent and with the right coach and development plan, he would have been fine. If he had ended up with Jim Harbaugh (who tried to recruit him for Stanford) or the coaches in Green Bay he would have been much better off. Shanahan knew his and his son’s jobs might be on the line if this season had been a bust. Being in “win-now” mode made him desperate and this is the result.

  71. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 3:23 PM

    kingbeason52 says: Jan 12, 2013 2:26 PM

    He is the Derrick Rose of the NFL at this point in time..
    _______
    How does that make any sense, and moreover, how do many people agree with you?

    Rose had a similar injury, but it’s far more detrimental for a point guard than for a quarterback. Rose sought out surgery by someone not named James Andrews (ie. huge mistake), didn’t rehab properly, and then tried to rush back into the league. That compounded his injury, and Rose has now been out of pro sports for twelve months longer than initially predicted.

    Griffin, has been out of pro sports 5 months less than even going by the lowest possible estimation of his recovery time. Why don’t we let him do what every doctor on the planet would suggest and heal before labeling him a has-been, a Derrick Rose, or a future 30 for 30 story.

    More importantly, Washington fan or not, why don’t we try some optimism regarding Griffin’s situation? It’s getting a little ridiculous, not to mention tasteless: I’ve never seen so many people resistant to the idea that a young, promising professional sports figure will recover.

  72. ragingmouse says: Jan 12, 2013 3:25 PM

    Cousins up…8-8, maybe.

  73. ronin36 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:28 PM

    The concerns for RGIII knees are warrented.

    But beyond that.. this is compounded by what they gave up to get him.

    For 3 1st rounders and a 2nd…? One 1st has been spent, so two more to go. So now the Redskins will have to lean on RG3 more because they won’t necessarily be able to put good quality people around him.

    This could be a downward spiral that’ll take Washington more than a few years to recover from.

    I could see, a few years from now, Shanahan fired, RG3 releases as a bust, and no talent on the team because of the lost draft picks. It could be very bad.

    Meanwhile, if well coached, and shrewdly applied, St. Louis could be sitting pretty. They can draft some additional talent around Bradford, help out the defense.. They could be formidable.

    Finally.. of course… We’re talking about these events in hindsight. What if RG3 only limped around the rest of the game. And Washington had won?

  74. gambeast5533 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:33 PM

    What happened to RGIII is bad, but let’s back up a minute here.

    I know this isn’t the popular opinion, but shouldn’t he be responsible for his decisions? He chose to tell Coach Shanahan that he could play. Yes, Coach Shanahan probably knew he was hurting, but which of his players weren’t hurting? It’s football!

    I’m not trying to stir the pot, but I don’t believe the Shanahan made RGIII go out there.

    Now, once RGIII proved ineffective, he should have done his job and pulled him from the game, injured or not. Maybe that was the point everybody was making and I missed it.

  75. fdugrad says: Jan 12, 2013 3:40 PM

    Several folks mentioning he can become a pocket passer. While this is probably correct, this does not seem to be the point, as far as I can understand. The point is whether or not it was a sound decision to treat a player for whom the owner, not the coach has mortgaged the future to obtain in such a reckless fashion. Wouldn’t it be far better to have a sound QB who had the option to use BOTH pocket and running skills over the next number of years and not be forced, due to a faulty, short-sighted decision to be left with only ONE style of play? Oh well, I suppose it is a comfort to Mr. Snyder that RG won’t be criticized the way Jay Cutler was. That will surely help the healing process!!

  76. ballboy48 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:44 PM

    If the only two things Heckert and Holmgren did right in Cleveland, it had to be the swing and miss on RG3, and leaving Cleveland with the second most cap space in the NFL, for 2013. I’d take the losing season last year, than have a QB whose career could be shortened because of a chronic injury.

    I wish him the best, as you never want to wish this upon anyone.

  77. wludford says: Jan 12, 2013 3:46 PM

    What is emerging is that RGIII is unlikely to completely recover from this. He may play again, he may not. If he does, he won’t be the same RGIII we saw this year. He will likely have to be a pocket passer, and even then he may not have a long career in the NFL.

    In the meantime, Washington has leveraged its future in a major way, giving up 3 1st round draft picks and 1 2nd round pick for a QB that may be out of the league before the Redskins are finished paying for him with their draft picks.

    It’s not just losing the draft picks, it’s also a salary cap problem. Draft picks are cheap contracts for 3-4-5 years. Quality free-agents are never cheap, and no team, let alone the Redskins, have enough salary cap to field a team heavy on free-agents. So Washington will have a growing talent deficit for many years to come.

    I think this is proving yet another cautionary tale in front-office mismanagement by the Washington Redskins organization. Coming on top of Washington’s (or Snyder’s) history of over-paying for free-agents, it is a sobering and devastating example of how poor front-office decisions can keep a team floundering for years on end.

  78. dtlb58 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:48 PM

    This article is exactly why I told the people to cool it, that were saying two months ago that the rest of the NFC East was gonna have to deal with RG3 for the next 15 years.
    This guys frame and the way they were using him I could tell wont last 10. Now we know the rest of the story. Good day.

  79. bigal1952 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:51 PM

    The Rat has always had a rep as a coach who would put his own short term gain ahead of his player’s safety/career. He ruined Brian Griese and who knows what he’s done now to RGIII.

  80. raideralex99 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:59 PM

    It’s funny seeing all these posts blaming Shanahan for RG3′s injury BUT before the final game with the Cowboys all the Redskins fans wanted RG3 to play too.
    RG3 should have NEVER played the game against the Cowboys.

  81. spideysdog says: Jan 12, 2013 3:59 PM

    RGknee out. Sad. I hope they were right on Cousins!

  82. nomoreseasontix says: Jan 12, 2013 4:00 PM

    Poor kid. He’s in for a rough one

  83. indywilson40 says: Jan 12, 2013 4:03 PM

    Big Cowboys fan here, but I really hope nothing but the best for RG3. Hope he returns healthy next year, beats my Cowboys twice, wins MVP, Comeback poy, a Pulitzter Prize, and the Super Bowl. I’m just a great person, with lots of class.

  84. oreo51 says: Jan 12, 2013 4:07 PM

    I guess RG3 is “One and Done.”

  85. onereasonableman says: Jan 12, 2013 4:07 PM

    Sure makes the Browns former mgmt look smart for not making that trade… or should I say, thanks Rams!

  86. metitometin says: Jan 12, 2013 4:09 PM

    It looks like Griffin is done. Shanny should be done after destroying RG3′s career in his thirst to win a playoff game at all costs, which just as easily could have been accomplished with Kirk Cousins. Shanny has really lost it the last few years. I hated when he threw Donavan McNabb under the bus for Rex Grossman. That made no sense to me at all. This is far worse. Complete negligence on Shanny’s part. There will be some lawsuits as a result of this, and the Redskin’s rebuilding has been set back for years.

  87. nananatman says: Jan 12, 2013 4:11 PM

    Mismanaged by the skins, there’s a reason they haven’t been good in two decades.

  88. skinsrock says: Jan 12, 2013 4:12 PM

    Patella tendon graft? Really? That doesn’t sound good at all! He should of been pulled at half… Every friend wanted to argue the point with me, but how can anyone who plays the “warrior”, “it’s football” card, this isn’t cool at all… I blame Shanahan but not to the point of calling for his job, like some… but the Redskins have to treat him like Elway or Steve Young, not Michael Vick.

  89. datsanono says: Jan 12, 2013 4:17 PM

    I’m tired of hearing that hindsight is 20/20. He should have been held out the remainder of the season when he first sprained it! Every doctor in the country was saying a minimum of 4-6 weeks! When he came back only two weeks later you could clearly see he was limping. This is all on Shanahan. He should have known better. The Seahawks game was just the icing on the cake. After he clearly reinjured it again he shlould have been taken out! RGIII will NEVER be the same. Get him back to good health, showcase him as a NFL passer instead of a dumbazz college QB and TRADE HIM! …….but do this after you FIRE SHANAHAN. This experiment may go on but in reality it’s already over. Shanahan ruined him along with RGIII’s reckless abandonment as if every play might be his last. He’s lucky to get another 5 good years and he’ll most likely be limited during it. Another black cloud over this franchise.

  90. ilovefoolsball says: Jan 12, 2013 4:30 PM

    So maybe the division hasn’t flipped?

  91. skinfangray says: Jan 12, 2013 4:35 PM

    Wow! This injury has completely brought the stupid out in people. Both in the media and the geniuses responding to this speculation post by Florio.

    First, the people posting about Griffin’s injuries being the result of him being a running qb, every word you post you are making yourself look dumber and dumber. Not one single injury this year happened on a designed running play. His injuries were on pass plays that he scrambled on. And I don’t care how big you are, if a 350lb player dives at your knees, you are going to be injured. That is what happened against the Ravens. People need to take a little time to research the facts before responding.

    Second, the people saying that his career is over, and he will never be the same, I have to laugh at you. This is an olympic quality athlete with an unbelievable work ethic. His rehab will bring him back better than he was before he was injured. People seem to forget that his passing was way better than most of the leagues qb’s. Again, think before you type.

    Finally, the ridiculous talk about the Skins management decisions and how the absence of 2 first round picks somehow depletes the team of being able to conduct a draft for the foreseeable future. This team has pulled the trigger completely right in the time that Shanahan has been here. Look at our last 3 drafts under his control. Also, to the genius above who seems to say that we somehow ended up with net loss of 4 draft picks and also lost another to draft Griffin, you need to pay better attention to things. We swapped first rounders this year with the Rams, then gave them first rounders in the next two drafts and a second rounder last year. So, that is a net of 3 picks.

    To the people who feel the need to post, regardless of your knowledge on the topic. It is always better to stay silent and let people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

  92. johnnyballsack says: Jan 12, 2013 4:50 PM

    cheddarrob says:
    Jan 12, 2013 2:32 PM
    How does keeping him in the game have to do with bone on bone? And I am pretty sure a lot of NFL players deal with bone on bone pain since they have been playing their whole life…
    ———————————————–
    I will try to shed some light on that since I have had similar injuries and OATS procedures done on both knees. When you tear ligaments/tendons in the knee it usually tears pieces of meniscus with it. Over time and with each additional tear there becomes less cushion between the bones, thus causing a grind every time you put pressure on it. I had to have my bones sanded down, twenty one holes drilled on top of the femur and cartilage from non weight bearing areas pinned in with dissolvable darts. This was due to almost total meniscus loss after tearing ACL, MCL, PCL and patella tendon on different occasions. Each injury resulted in more loss of meniscus. The recovery was long, the pain excruciating and the knees are never the same. I am in pain every day, stiff and wobbly.

    I think that if taken out of the game, or rested properly after the LCL sprain (which is a small tear) in the Baltimore game the ACL and complete LCL tears would not have happened. As a result the meniscus would not be lost and less risk of bone on bone.

    Not sure if that helps answer your question, but hopefully sheds some light on the severity of the injury.

    I am not a Skins fan, but I am definitely wishing for a healthy recovery for Mr. Griffin. I really hope that he and the staff allow the proper time to recover fully before he attempts to play again.

  93. rabidbillsfan says: Jan 12, 2013 4:53 PM

    Where is the Norv Turner hate, well, I mean the hate he should get for playing Rivers on his torn ACL. NFL=Not For Long, wouldn’t we all be singing a diffrent tune had the ‘Skins won that game? Reality is, Shannahan did the kid a favor really. Last Sunday, RG3 had the best chance he ever will to win a Lombardi, atleast this far into his career, he wanted to go for it and Shannahan let him. I have no issue with that. Whether it was that Sunday or the season opener next season, RG3 could have hurt himself anytime. This will just speed up his development into a pocket-passer.

  94. rufustfireflyjr says: Jan 12, 2013 4:54 PM

    Frankly, I’ll give more credence to the surgeon who actually worked on him than I will to some unnamed “league source” who probably has no first hand knowledge, and who may not know anything more than we do.

  95. realdealsteel says: Jan 12, 2013 4:55 PM

    This is going to open the door for Kirk Cousins to be the long term QB for the Redskins. And Cousins has the skills to excel in that offense.

  96. southcakpanther says: Jan 12, 2013 4:55 PM

    Jan 12, 2013 3:08 PM
    Redskins fans are hoping for a miracle now. I don’t know of any player who’s come back from a 3rd ACL and now RG3 has to avoid that for the rest of his career.
    _________________

    Thomas Davis this season. Go Panthers. Keep Pounding.

  97. joemammy says: Jan 12, 2013 5:08 PM

    Who’s to blame for this? Is it Shanny? Or is it the Skins’ snarky fanbase…the one who made RG3 out to be superhuman?

    This is the fruit of your selfishness. Enjoy!

  98. hooterdawg says: Jan 12, 2013 5:32 PM

    Jeff Fisher isn’t even Irish, but he is dancing a jig over all those draft choices now. Those choices are likely to be even higher first round picks if RGIII can’t recover and the Skins fall back to the bottom of the NFC East.

  99. vuudu says: Jan 12, 2013 5:33 PM

    Now, what if I told you that the greatest quarterback that never was played his first NFL playoff game with a known knee injury for almost the entire game, that his coach knew that he was hurt, he knew that he was hurt, but decided to show that he was a man and not something else?

  100. peytonsneck18 says: Jan 12, 2013 5:36 PM

    IRG3 like i said when the skins fans were on here yappin bout rg3 was better than Luck n they were SB bound this year….humble pie anyone? ??

  101. blackqbwhiterb says: Jan 12, 2013 5:46 PM

    I hope he heals well and completely, i sincerely do… But I am excited about the potential of Kirk Cousins & wanted the Skins to take him in round 2 and not even draft RG3…because I know even more about football than Logicalvoicesays, I believe Cousins can be a fantastic QB for the Redskins

  102. FinFan68 says: Jan 12, 2013 5:47 PM

    @skinfangray,
    You make some valid points. However, statements like–”His rehab will bring him back better than he was before he was injured.”–are no more informed than the ones you claim are stupid. That is pure hopeful speculation and has no basis in fact.

    RG3 is a great athlete and seems to have a good work ethic. I do not doubt his desire to heal. Several doubt his ability to heal and be the same type of player he showed he could be. Nobody knows.

  103. fran021 says: Jan 12, 2013 5:48 PM

    Andrews is every bit as much to blame as Shanahan.

  104. irokkit says: Jan 12, 2013 5:55 PM

    I know the answer!!!!!

    Let him be a quarter backing Payton manning. Sit in the pocket and throw. His arm is okay…isn’t it?

  105. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 6:08 PM

    hooterdawg says:
    Jan 12, 2013 5:32 PM
    Jeff Fisher isn’t even Irish, but he is dancing a jig over all those draft choices now. Those choices are likely to be even higher first round picks if RGIII can’t recover and the Skins fall back to the bottom of the NFC East.
    _______
    Yes and No. While having first round picks is awesome for the Rams, the idea that Fisher somehow pulled a fast one on the Redskins is beyond ridiculous. No one knew that Griffin would be injured, hence the debate over Griffin for the first overall pick.

    Even if Griffin only comes back at 80 or 90 percent of his former speed, he’s still a franchise quarterback, and there’s no way to overpay for one of those. Even if the most pessimimstic commenters on this site are correct and Griffin misses the whole 2013 season, Washington’s draft picks were not misspent. Griffin’s knee situation was grossly mishandled, but he’s unquestionably worth the picks they gave and more.

  106. eddiegabriel2013 says: Jan 12, 2013 6:09 PM

    hope and pray he won’t be the mark fidrych of this generation….

  107. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 6:13 PM

    Or is it the Skins’ snarky fanbase…the one who made RG3 out to be superhuman?
    ___________
    It’s one guy. One guy. And he’s as much of a Redskins fan as Richard Sherman. Why would any actual fan would put so much effort into ensuring undying hatred of the other 31 fanbases towards the Robert Griffin, the Redskins, and the Washington fan base?

  108. ryanpmcvey says: Jan 12, 2013 6:13 PM

    Griffin will be the new Michael Vick. Moments of highlights but he won’t be durable. So glad the colts took Luck!

  109. udontknowjacku says: Jan 12, 2013 6:20 PM

    They did not give up 3 first rounds!!!!!! do the math moron…They gave up 2 and got RG3 with the other…so stuff it u idiot….

  110. offthelows says: Jan 12, 2013 6:22 PM

    I read somewhere else there wasn’t any cartilage damage, but I’m not RG3′s doctor, but neither is Mike

  111. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 6:24 PM

    vuudu says: Jan 12, 2013 5:33 PM

    Now, what if I told you that the greatest quarterback that never was played his first NFL playoff game with a known knee injury for almost the entire game, that his coach knew that he was hurt, he knew that he was hurt, but decided to show that he was a man and not something else?
    ________
    Damn, that is spot on. Still, I’m from DC, so I don’t want to even discuss that, but I want to make sure you got props for what would otherwise be hilarious.

  112. 85pmart says: Jan 12, 2013 6:26 PM

    Knees are delicate.

  113. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 6:33 PM

    “Griffin’s knee creates more concern than advertised”
    ____________
    As much as I love unnamed sources; who also brought us such gems as “The Colts are leaning towards Griffin”, “Ray Lewis will play another 2-4 years”, “Tebow to Jacksonville a virtual lock”, “Andy Reid will be coaching in Arizona”, “Chip Kelly closing in on a deal with Philadelphia”, and “Chip Kelly closing in on a deal with Cleveland”; this headline is beyond ridiculous.

    The sports media are the only one “advertising” anything about Griffin, as well as the only one raising “concerns”. The Redskins and James Andrews aren’t quiet because the injury is vastly worse than they thought, they’re quiet because, unlike NFL Network, ESPN, and PFT, their livelihoods don’t depend on attention-grabbing headlines.

  114. crj202 says: Jan 12, 2013 6:41 PM

    I’ll be satisfied if he just plays again, ever! Just for his sake. But this means the return to the bottom for my beloved Redskins organization. First off in the rebuilding process? FIRE SHANNAHAN NOW for putting us in this situation to begin with!!!

  115. olympiacham says: Jan 12, 2013 7:59 PM

    Hopefully he can fully recover, but you never know how anyone is going to heal. Just ask Brandon Roy.

  116. therealzeitgeist says: Jan 12, 2013 8:11 PM

    All the folks blasting Shanny are half-right, but its not all on him.

    RGIII isn’t some motorized puppet with an on/off switch, he’s the body that knows itself more than anybody else. He felt what his leg was doing as the game went on, ultimately it was his choice.

    What went down on that field, in RGIII’s mind feeling his knee slowly giving up, was life imitating art a la Friday Night Lights when the kid blew his knee out.

    From RGIII doing that, to Michael Jordan’s Wizards-stint, jocks need to learn how to be their own coach sometimes, and know when to stop.

  117. peytonsneck18 says: Jan 12, 2013 8:26 PM

    Hows the bust going skins fans?

  118. jwreck says: Jan 12, 2013 8:53 PM

    olympiacham says:
    Jan 12, 2013 7:59 PM
    Hopefully he can fully recover, but you never know how anyone is going to heal. Just ask Brandon Roy.
    ________
    Somebody mentioned Brandon Roy earlier. Roy is one of my favorite athletes ever, and I’m from DC, so needless to say, my response droned on for way too long and it got deleted. But to summarize, Roy and Griffin do not have particularly similar injuries, and their healing process will be very different.

    Basketball courts are vastly more resistant (the physical therapy word for harder) than football fields, causing more knee strain. On top of that, cutting and jumping put more of a grinding, cartilage destroying strain on the knees than anything in football apart from runningbacks pushing through piles (hence their short shelf lives)

    Brandon Roy is a great athlete, but he has no knees. Which is not a pun, but is to say that when he goes up, he comes down way too hard.

    By the time he entered the NBA, his knees had already become a problem, and his first knee operation actually removed cartilage, rather than fixing it, as they would do today. Roy was supposed to take two months off, but was on the court again in less than two weeks.

    The next year, his steadily degrading knees along with the subpar surgery caused a bone contusion, which should have put him on IR. Instead, he was playing again 8 days later.

    Roy had arthroscopic surgery on his knees the following year: a procedure very similar to what Griffin is having done. The Third will be sitting out at least six months to heal up, Roy took one.

    Point is, it was no single injury that led to Roy’s debilitation, but a lifetime of extreme wear, tear, and poor physical therapy practices. Though his career looks pretty much over now, keep in mind that not only does medical science advance exponentially every year, but Roy battled with his knees through 23 years of knee-grinding, cartilage-crushing AAU, high school, college, and professional basketball.

    In other words, Roy is that broken-down 1988 Camaro that you try to keep running on duct tape and discontinued parts you find on the internet, while Griffin is a 2012 model that blew out it’s transmission. Is it good for the car? Clearly not. Is it a huge repair job? Absolutely. Will it run as well as it used to? Probably not.

    But is it in incomparably better shape than the 1988 lemon? Without question.

  119. dallascowboysdishingthereal says: Jan 12, 2013 10:42 PM

    Owner Snyder gave the farm away to get RG3 and then Shanahan plays him while injured like it was a now or never season. Incredible and not smart.

  120. BeachBum46 says: Jan 12, 2013 11:32 PM

    bobzilla1001 says: Jan 12, 2013 3:00 PM

    The reason the Redskins drafted TWO quarterbacks last spring was because they knew Griffin’s durability was questionable.
    The organization’s hunch is about to be realized. Kirk Cousins is no slouch.
    ______________________________
    They should have saved all those draft picks then and just drafted Cousins! Why would they be so stupid if they didn’t think they would have RGIII for many years to come….

  121. sysi45 says: Jan 13, 2013 12:25 AM

    This is why a running QB will never be successful in the NFL. In college, they play 11 games for 2 or 3 years and don’t get hit as hard as in the NFL.

  122. sysi45 says: Jan 13, 2013 12:31 AM

    This is why a running QB will never be successful in the NFL. In college, they play 11 games for 2 or 3 years and don’t get hit as hard as in the NFL. They may last for a year or two but once the knees get messed up, they are done. RG3, Kaepernick, Wilson and Tebow (if they give him a chance) will last 2 to 3 years before they are crippled or suffering from concussions. It is a fools errand for GMs and Coaches to try to change the system.

  123. richturpin says: Jan 13, 2013 8:06 AM

    You ‘fans’ are too much, I didn’t see the comment/message boards filling up when Griffin was playing hurt during the Eagles and Cowboys game..he wasn’t 100% after the Ravens game yet nobody seemed to care because the Redskins were winners of 7 straight and the NFC East title. Now, after the fact, Griffin is badly injured and everyone wants to fire Shanahan…Shanahan was doing what he had done the previous 2 weeks, play his injured QB.

    NONE of you know what conversations took place between Griffin/Shanny OR team doctors/Shanny for that matter.

    Further, everyone keeps saying ‘Shanny put him in danger by running him’, well that’s not exactly true considering the initial injury against the Ravens took place on a scramble, not a designed run. Griffin needs to learn to get out of bounds/slide like Colin Kaepernick.

    When are ‘fans’ going to start pointing the finger at Robert Griffin III?

  124. bullroughrider says: Jan 13, 2013 8:41 AM

    I think Robert Griffin will recover fully — he’s a quality kid with amazing work ethic and commitment — although I think the Skins will have to be cautious on when they actually line him up back on the field. I watched him play regularly throughout the season, and he is obviously an incredible player, total package. My concern has been the number and types of hits Griffin endured throughout the regular season, that possibly had a cumulative effect and made his body more vulnerable to injury especially towards the end of the season. I remember several times when RGIII took some devastating hits by the defense and I wondered why didn’t he try to avoid contact (even though he bounced right back up as if nothing happened). Last night vs. Green Bay, in addition to a solid game in the air Colin Kaepernick rushed for a record breaking number of yards for a QB of 181 yards on 14 carries. Of his 14 carries, I can recall two rushing attempts where I thought Colin took hard shots by the Packers defense. He’s bigger than RGIII, and it would appear CK recognizes the importance of protecting himself and last night he often either ran out of bounds or got down / slid before the tackle. IMO the Skins coaching staff and Griffin need to work on his avoiding contact — particularly when unnecessary — in order for Robert to have a long, outstanding career.

  125. leafeaterx says: Jan 14, 2013 7:36 AM

    “Apart from the fact that there’s no way to know how the ACL will rehab, the biggest concern, as the source explained it, is the damage to Griffin’s cartilage. With the ACL in the right knee now torn twice in less than four years, Griffin has lost enough cartilage in his knee to raise concerns about how much remains and how long it will last. Eventually, Griffin could be dealing with bone-on-bone contact, and the chronic pain that goes along with it.”

    Of course it might never need to come to this, as one can simply perform an arthroplasty procedure to regrow cartilage if necessary that has a six week recovery time. Don’t be surprised if Griffin ends up having this performed at some point.

    Further, the problem is pain management when there’s a significant loss of cartilage. This can be managed using various medications. After his career, I expect him to have to get a knee replacement at some point sadly…

  126. jayrus33 says: Jan 14, 2013 5:00 PM

    I strongly feel that RGIII is so strong and has a very strong will that he’ll fool alot of folks and be ready by the season opener!

  127. johnnyballsack says: Jan 14, 2013 5:50 PM

    leafeaterx-
    Very good points. However arthroplasty and OATS procedures are mainly used long term to make pain more manageable in a fairly sedentary lifestyles, not under NFL conditions. I had them done and continued an athletic career (not NFL caliber). After a few years the problems returned and the pain, while diminished, is still there. I will always have to deal with the pain and problems until I get total knee replacements.

    I just hope that Mr. Griffin allows his body enough time to heal and rehab properly before stepping back out on the field. I would think that sitting out the 2013 season would be the only smart decision for the possibility of having a long career. I wish him good luck.

  128. escapedconvict says: Jan 15, 2013 8:28 AM

    Griffin’s ego got him into this situation as much as anything. He played the humble routine, but I’m not so sure how humble he really was. Who the hell is he to say, “there was no way I was leaving the game?” Also, When he approached Tony Romo after the last Dallas game this season and tried to give him advice it made me ill. Who the fk is this rookie trying to pass on his great wisdom to a veteran QB? Romo should have told him to get bent. And maybe that’s the problem with Romo as well. To quote Damone from Fast Times, “You my friend are a wussy. Part wimp, part pu*sy.”

  129. justinxxchunche3 says: Jan 15, 2013 7:47 PM

    Oh so you mean he won’t be able to outrun every other player in the league now??? Oh what a shame… A knee brace with 70%mobility still left him outrunning everyone. He shall study Collin kapernicks ability to just RUN OUT OF BOUNDS, and remember his true identity. Which isn’t running he just wanted to showcase that to much. THIS GUY IS A POCKET PASSER. An o line that wAsnt great as pass blocking only looked good with the quick zone read running game shall improve on the offseason, as well as getting 2 safeties 2 corners and the best pass rusher we haven’t had all season (orakpo week2) and the defense maybe won’t allow 30+per game and maybe rg3 can become a russel Wilson and have a defense who only allows 15.1 points a game, maybe he only needs to score two tds and a fg to win? Maybe? All in all this guy is special. Even with a 100% recovery I expect them to come out next season and open up that 80% of the playbook they haven’t used yet(quote mike shannahan) with an ok pass block and ok knee and a 3-4 wr set this guy can still be deadly alluding the rush and passing downfield. Not counting the final playoff game when he shouldn’t have been in considering he couldn’t throw off his foot cuz of the knee pain an all his passes sailing, he can throw the ball, the world class speed is just icing on the cake and desert. But this year desert had to be served as an appetizer unfortunately. he had the best completion percentage of any rookie EVER, and number 3 in qb rating while missing a game and playing the final 4-5 with an injury and knee brace only allowing 70 percent knee extension and in those games he still averaged 10+ypc and 3 rushing tds???? C’mon I’m just as concerned as anybody, but even If he was the slowest qb in the league if be stoked to have him over luck or Wilson or anyone, the way this guy can pass an read defenses….he just has to much ability and he focuse on the easiest one (world class speed) and it cost him. Seeing what this rookie qb and rookie rb did in one year in a very long and complex playbook offense missing both safeties a cb an pass rusher and still won the NFC east? I’m not so much worried as to him healing as I am to the countless possibilities shanahan can add to this offense in the offseason with these two rookies and let’s not forget we should be getting back our defense. Scary

  130. westernpaisdirty says: Jan 17, 2013 12:53 PM

    I preface this comment with I am an Eagles fan, season ticket holder since 1978, and this is not meant in a mean spirited way because I really like this kid. If he has to change his game due to his legs no longer being a weapon, he is done. I had the pleasure of watching one of the most freakishly talented athletes ever to play QB in randal Cunningham. He was an All-America punter at UNLV, holds the record for the Eagles with a 93 yard punt, could throw a football 75 yards on one knee, and didnt just run, he glided. Unfortunately Buddy Ryan was too arrogant to coach him but he was a human highlight film. Until Bryce Paupe took a dive at his knee and tore his PCL. Randall wore a hat that he’d be back scrambling, and he came back, but never the same again. His passing game was set up by the defenses fear if his legs. The we saw McNabb, Redskins fans remember the play in his second year where he ran for a TD and put such a juke on the Redskins safety that it looked as though he broke both a ankles. McNabb broke his ankle then later tore his ACL. His legs gone he was pedestrian at best. People forget he went to three NFC Championship games with Todd Pinkston as his number one receiver and Chad Lewis as his tight end. No legs no game. Now we have the sad sack case of Michael Vick. Vicks whole game was his legs but those legs enabled him to pass. Without the legs he’s awful. RGIII is a much better passer than all three of those guys but would his accuracy be what it is if defenses only have to worry about him as if he were slow footed Joe Flacco?? No way!! I’m hoping he recovers. For football, for the NFC East and for Birds fans. NFC East football isn’t fun unless you’ve got lots of guys to hate on your rivals. Here’s hoping he’s okay and I’m wrong. History says I’m not.

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