ESPN ranks Peyton Manning No. 3, Tom Brady No. 20 in its Top 20 athletes list

Getty Images

ESPN needs something to fill a slow time in its programming schedule, so it decided to come out with a list of the 20 most dominant athletes of the last 20 years. That list includes two football players: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

Most football fans will agree with Manning and Brady both making the list of the Top 20 athletes of the last 20 years, but the ranking will seem off: Manning is No. 3. Brady is No. 20.

Why is Brady, who has played in an NFL-record eight Super Bowls, won an NFL-record five Super Bowl rings, and won an NFL-record four Super Bowl MVP awards, all the way down at No. 20? Because ESPN says the playoffs can’t be included in these completely subjective rankings.

Seriously. We’re ranking the 20 best athletes of the last 20 years, but we’re going to just pretend that postseason performances don’t matter. Because who really cares about the playoffs, anyway?

ESPN’s reason for this is preposterous: “In evaluating players, we considered regular-season stats only, since there’s no good way to compare playoffs across sports.”

There’s no good way to compare playoffs across sports? Sure there is! You could compare how many championships each player has won. Baseball player Mike Trout is No. 18 on the list — ahead of Brady — even though Trout has never played in a World Series. Here’s a good way to compare playoffs across sports: You take Brady’s record of eight Super Bowl appearances and five Super Bowl wins, and you say that’s better than Trout’s record of zero World Series appearances and zero wins.

Is that completely fair to either Brady or Trout? No, it isn’t. Football and baseball are team sports. But guess what? This is all just an exercise in silliness anyway. Just take a look at the full ESPN list:

1-Tiger Woods
2-LeBron James
3-Peyton Manning
4-Jimmie Johnson
5-Roger Federer
6-Annika Sorenstam
7-Michael Shumacher
8-Floyd Mayweather
9-Marta
10-Usain Bolt
11-Lionel Messi
12-Serena Williams
13-Lauren Jackson
14-Cristiano Ronaldo
15-Novak Djokovic
16-Allyson Felix
17-Barry Bonds
18-Mike Trout
19-Manny Pacquiao
20-Tom Brady

That list features one male golfer, one male basketball player, two football players, one NASCAR driver, two male tennis players, one female golfer, one Formula One driver, two boxers, one male sprinter, one female soccer player, two male soccer players, one female tennis player, one female basketball player, one female sprinter and two baseball players. How exactly is it that you can find a way to compare a golfer to a basketball player, a NASCAR driver to a tennis player, a boxer to a sprinter, and men to women, but you can’t figure out a way to compare playoffs to the regular season?

The list is, laughably, missing the most dominant Olympian ever, Michael Phelps, which ESPN blames on “the data.” What data determined that the swimmer who won 23 gold medals isn’t one of the 20 most dominant athletes of the last 20 years? ESPN doesn’t say. Just trust them. It’s “the data.” And “the data” cannot be questioned.

Why didn’t any hockey players make the list? Who knows. Why two boxers but no MMA fighters? It’s anyone’s guess. Why two sprinters but no jumpers, throwers or distance runners? Honestly, who cares.

Maybe we’d all just be better off ignoring these exercises in attention-seeking. But sometimes a little mockery is in order. And when you’re trying to compare Tom Brady to Annika Sorenstam but arbitrarily deciding not to include Brady’s Super Bowl performances, you deserve to be mocked.

434 responses to “ESPN ranks Peyton Manning No. 3, Tom Brady No. 20 in its Top 20 athletes list

  1. “Top lists” are controversial on purpose to generate clicks and social media traction.

    (It works, too.)

  2. I want to say who cares its ESPN, but then again I did click the link. Mostly to laugh at their ridiculous explanation tho, and true to form they didn’t disappoint. ESPN truly is the worldwide leader in sports entertainment, just for all the wrong reasons.

  3. In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships. People underestimate how good those early 2000s Patriots defenses were. They didn’t have big names like the Ravens but they were every bit as good.

  4. another laughable effort by the worldwide joke of sportscasting

    Golfers shouldnt even be included in this list and the fact they have one as the best athlete is hilaiously bad

  5. Seriously, if you hate the ESPN list, why not just do your own work and write an article? What’s the purpose of bashing someone else’s work?

  6. Championships are based on team success.
    If you are determining athletes as the singular person they are you can’t factor in team success too much.

    Peyton Manning was a better individual QB than Tom Brady, no doubt
    The singular dynasty of the Patriots with Belichick and Brady together that long was better than the Colts/Broncos franchises were during the same period.

    It’s not that hard to grasp.

  7. He’s actually listed at number 3 (besides the point) and ESPN isn’t exactly the place to go for sports coverage anymore. It’s essentially become a subsidiary of BET and are also well known for recently reporting LeBron James GAINED 7 pounds in a basketball game.

  8. Yet another reason why ESPN is garbage to be ignored and discarded.

    As a Patriots fan it’s annoying that they’ve ruined Mike Reiss. His best work used to be in his Tuesday mailbag columns, for some reason they ended that and he rarely gets to write the quality in depth analytical pieces he used to write prior to ESPN.

    The ESPN website is trash and impossible to navigate cleanly. It’s just one never ending scroll filled with videos. I miss the old site that had actual links and was easier to navigate by sport.

  9. To quote Peyton Manning’s very first head coach:

    “PLAYOFFS? Don’t talk about playoffs!”

  10. Pretty legit since that woman reporter in heels was about .02 seconds off Brady’s Combine time.

  11. Doesn’t Brady have a higher regular season winning percentage?? What is more dominant than winning all the time??

  12. Good for a laugh. That’s about it. Geez, let’s see if we can get some clicks by doing something stupid.

  13. “patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm
    In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships. People underestimate how good those early 2000s Patriots defenses were. They didn’t have big names like the Ravens but they were every bit as good.“

    Tom Brady led the league in TDs the first full season he played, and he was throwing to an average at best group of receivers. But cool story I guess.

  14. Peyton the choke artist in front of Tom? Really? Not only do they know nothing about football, they apparently know nothing about other sports either. They put the likes of Tiger, Lebron and Peyton in front of Federer, who’s literally the greatest tennis player in history, ever. Seriously? I could go on. There’s nothing right about this list.

  15. Was surprised to see Marta at 9. Did not realize the Atlanta subway system was even eligible to compete with these guys.

  16. Article should read “ESPN ranks Jimmie Johnson No. 4, Tom Brady No. 20 in its Top 20 athletes list”

  17. Bonds at 18 is a crime, yes I know he used steroids but his dominace in baseball cant be matched in any other sport during current times. I
    Even if you exclude the postseason which makes no sense to do so how much better is Peyton anyways? He has 14 more starts and 51 more TDs but 91 more INTs, Brady has 10 more wins despite less starts and has a higher QB rating despite playing in thr North East which is much harder to pass in than AFC South where Peyton had more than 50% of his starts in domes, and the AFC West where half thr teams are in California. Dont get me wrong Peyton is an all time great but Brady is clearly the better and more successful player. ESPN continues to be a awful sports network what a surprise.

  18. Lionel Messi #11, what a joke. Some one explain me how any of those is better that what Lionel Messi has accomplished.

  19. Obviously the list is a joke and everyone knows Brady is the GOAT quarterback and GOAT team sport athlete. But the craziest thing is putting race car drivers on there. Why not throw in American Pharoah’s jockey too?

  20. Manning broke his team’s back with his salary, whereas Brady made a series of financial sacrifices. Brady is the ultimate team player.

    Almost goes without saying, but this is the reason that Brady has 5 rings and Manning has 2.

    Of course, Brady also had the luxury of playing for the best coach in all of football.

  21. Brady fit the system, Manning was the system. It’s as simple as that. For some reason the media has convinced fans who don’t understand the game that the QB is the only reason teams win SB’s. They compare football to golf or tennis and forget that the best team will win the game.

    What the bigger joke of all of this is that Aaron Rodgers, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant are not on the list either. But it’s ESPN so we all know what kind of joke they are.

  22. Uh, doesn’t ESPN want Manning to do Monday Night Football? Placing him at the bottom of their “list” wouldn’t help their pandering. I’m surprised they didn’t put him at #1.

  23. At the end of the day, it comes down to someone’s opinion. Brady lovers say it’s Brady, Manning lovers say it’s Manning. Me, I believe Hulk Hogan should be number one! When it comes to opinions, no one is wrong.

    Just my opinion!

  24. This list is a joke. Mayweather should be at the top of the list. You may not like his boring style but he is an individual sport and he is the only person on the list who is undefeated over that 20 year period.

  25. If you’re going to include Bonds on the list, I don’t know how you put him so low. He was by far the most feared hitter in baseball. Either leave him off the list because of PEDs or put him near the top if you’re going to ignore the PEDs

  26. “Manning was a better individual QB?” Based on what? He certainly had more offensive weapons than Brady except for 2007. Remind me of Brady’s stats that year. The reality is that Brady was consistently asked to do more with less and he delivered. Comparing athletes across sports is tough, but comparing QBs is easy. If you were a GM, who would you take? Even the IndyStar rated Brady ahead of Manning.

  27. Peyton Manning ? really? Tom Brady over him easily. Sure Brady benefited from better coaching. Still, I woudl take Aaron Rodgers over Peyton if you talk about athletes and sportsman factor combined. Then you got RBs and WRs and defensive players that are neglected?

  28. totally agree with you on this article’s premise! this is attention seeking nonsense, and it doesn’t have to make sense because it gets people arguing and gains the attention they are looking for! ridiculous…

  29. If it’s the last 20 years then Jordan should be on it. His last title was in ’98 and he averaged 28 ppg that year and was still the best player in the NBA. His final two seasons in Washington were in the early 2000s and he was still scoring 20+ at the time. Not sure how LeBron ends up that high given he’s not the best all-time in his sport whereas Federer, Serena and Messi all arguably are.

  30. This list sure seems to have touched a nerve but why are there no NHL players on the list…maybe a Crosby??? Or maybe no NHL since ESPN has no vested interest in NHL???

  31. So glad I can watch the draft on NFL network now. ESPN is blocked on my cable box and has been for a few years now. don’t even know who is on their network anymore

  32. How can you be dominate and not win a championship in your sport…and what about Serena being the second woman on the list at 13, absolutely ridiculous….

  33. Brady had better teams but Manning was the better quarterback.
    ==============================

    I’m not sure how it ever started, but the idea that Peyton Manning didn’t have much help on offense and had to do more with less might be my favorite Manning related myth.

  34. I rarely agree with MDS and his opinions, but he is spot on with this one. I’m not a Brady lover, but #20 is laughable.

  35. terripet says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:10 pm
    Manning changed the quarterback position

    ——————————

    You mean Bill Polian changed the QB position after his golden boy kept getting skunked against New England and he used his position on the competition committee to weaken defenses across the league.

  36. disgustedfan says:
    March 20, 2018 at 12:59 pm
    Little things please little minds and bigger fools look on.
    ========================
    Made you click and comment.

  37. We can just throw golfers and nascar drivers out of this list. Am I an athlete cause I drive to work every day?

    I know how ridiculous the driving statement was. I won’t take back the golfing statement. Lets stop being silly

  38. this is one of the funniest things i have ever seen, but all it way do is light a fire under brady some more

    espn had bb 6th as greatest coach ever a few years back, too

    quite comical the depths in which espn will go to go after the patriots franchise

    anyone claiming espn somehow kisses the pats butt is a moron

    bruschi has to be mortified at this point

  39. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm

    In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships.
    ———————

    Well, Manning was along for the ride in one of his, and hiding in the trunk for the other, so what it your point?

  40. I just did my Top 20 list of sports networks and ESPN didn’t make the cut. They would have been higher but I didn’t have the data and didn’t count their playoff coverage.

  41. After reviewing the list, you would have to “Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee!”

  42. Simply comical. Obviously this “Top Athletes” list has nothing to do with pure athleticism, considering that Peyton might be the only QB in the last 20 years who is less athletic than Tom Brady.

    If we are talking about best at their position, then it’s no contest. Brady beats Manning hands down.

    BTW – I wonder. Does anyone know Tiger’s vertical and 40 time are? I’m wondering just how great of an “athlete” he really is.

  43. rob471773 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:05 pm
    Yet another reason why ESPN is garbage to be ignored and discarded.

    As a Patriots fan it’s annoying that they’ve ruined Mike Reiss. His best work used to be in his Tuesday mailbag columns, for some reason they ended that and he rarely gets to write the quality in depth analytical pieces he used to write prior to ESPN.

    The ESPN website is trash and impossible to navigate cleanly. It’s just one never ending scroll filled with videos. I miss the old site that had actual links and was easier to navigate by sport.

    14 2 Rate This

    —————-

    they choose to work there

    they could easily get a role at nfln

  44. Why is Brady, who has played in an NFL-record eight Super Bowls, won an NFL-record five Super Bowl rings, and won an NFL-record four Super Bowl MVP awards, all the way down at No. 20? Because ESPN says the playoffs can’t be included in these completely subjective rankings.
    ================
    No, because wins are a TEAM accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.

    I always cringed watching Peyton Manning line up against my team. He is the most cerebral QB this league has ever seen and that’s why he was as great as he was. He called his own plays! Unlike Brady, he did all that with very little as far as coaching support and talent on defense.

    Brady is great for sure – only a bitter Pat fan would be offended at this ranking calling Brady one of the 20 greatest athletes of all time in any sport – but I never cringed once when I saw him line up. That’s because of who is coach was and the indisputable benefit he recieved from it. BELICHICK was the man to fear when the Patriots play your team, not Brady.

    Perhaps Brady would be right up there with Manning if he didn’t have the benefit his whole career of having Coach Belichick, who unlike Brady really is and should be in the conversation for Greatest of All Time at his position.

  45. Even if you count regular season performances only, Brady has won more games, more divisions titles etc.

    Brady isn’t exactly far behind in the stats in the regular season either. After 2018 they would have played the same number of seasons, but right now Brady is 1 short because manning started playing in 1998 and Brady in 2001 (both had 1 year injuries).

    Very unclear how they chose the stats.

  46. Jimmie Johnson above Roger Federer says everything we need to know about this story and ESPN in general.

  47. Look at all the New England fans up in arms over a made up, meaningless list.
    Gosh since losing the SB, they have been on edge.
    =====

    They’ve been on edge since the cheating scandals came out.

    #Feartheasterisks

  48. Bonds and Trout are COMPLETE nonsense inclusions. The timeframe is ’98 to 2018. Bonds was historically great during that time, BUT Arod and Pujols far surpassed him in impact just because their primes overlapped the time period better. And Trout is still just getting warmed up.

    And no Michael Phelps makes this list further irrelavent, nevermind the Brady baiting part.

  49. joeflaccosunibrow says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm

    I rarely agree with MDS and his opinions, but he is spot on with this one. I’m not a Brady lover, but #20 is laughable.
    ===============
    Why? This is #20 of any sport at any time, well beyond the NFL.

  50. P. Manning played his worst in big games. He was a choke. Brady is the opposite.
    =====

    Manning post-season rating – 87.4

    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9

    Practically the same player

  51. Forget Brady… who would ever say that Peyton Manning is the 3rd most dominant athlete of the last 20 years when he only won two championships?

  52. The irony is that Tiger Woods is #1 on the list but nobody swung his 2 iron quite better than Elin Nordegren. Lesson? it’s best to keep the driver in the bag when you can’t see the hazards ahead.

  53. No NHL players on the list? The only thing ESPN hates more than the Pats is the NHL. Please go bankrupt and disappear for ever ‘world wide leader’ … Please!

  54. I concur regarding the lack of NHL players. If LeBron is #2 then it’s odd not to see Sidney Crosby up there. Even Ovechkin.

  55. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm

    In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships. People underestimate how good those early 2000s Patriots defenses were. They didn’t have big names like the Ravens but they were every bit as good.

    =========

    Belichick started 5-13 as Pats head coach, and then won the Super Bowl as one of the biggest underdogs on a great final drive. Brady had a little to do with, hardly merely “along for the ride”. You still have yet to provide any semblance of proof that Brady is a “system” QB no matter how badly you want it. Its nonsense. Belichick would have traded Brady for picks loooooong ago if he thought he could get the same production cheaper. Not disputable.

  56. Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

  57. Tiger and Lebron. Sounds like an ESPN story to me.

    Tiger greatest athlete?? Too funny. Has he ever ran…once?

  58. ha great. Manning is significantly better upon eye test. Manning could actually run when he was young and sturdy enough to where you dont worry for his life after a big hit.
    brady is a gumpy string bean he weighs less than drew brees.

  59. 2minutetommy says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:37 pm

    No Gretzky?
    =======================
    This is a list of the greatest of the last 20 years.

  60. Belichek and the Patriots success absent Tom Brady cannot be ignored…for once can we have a media member address this…if Brady is so great, why do the Patriots continue to win without him?

  61. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:36 pm

    Why? This is #20 of any sport at any time, well beyond the NFL.
    —————
    No its the last 20 years, since 1998. That’s why Jordan isn’t shown.

  62. How’s about Top 20 RICHEST athletes… 1. Michael Jordan; 2. Tiger Woods; 3. Floyd “Money” Mayweather. Who could No.4 be? lol

  63. I don’t even know who any of their female athletes are. I had heard of her, but I wasn’t sure if Sorenstam played golf, tennis, or basketball until I looked it up.

  64. If you want your head to hurt just read ESPN’s FAQ section on this list. They contradict themselves left and right. To wit: They blame “data” for leaving Phelps off the list yet then say that surfer Kelly Slater and snowboarder Shawn White missed out only because their sports don’t make enough money. Swimming isn’t exactly a cash cow so why wasn’t that the explanation for Phelps, as well? Yet, somehow Usain Bolt still ranks near the top with no issues at all. And not even an attempt to explain why Mario Lemieux or even Sidney Crosby failed to make the cut.

  65. secutorum says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

    ============================
    Yup! Brady takes a new team – not coached by Belichick – to a title like Peyton did and I will admit he should be in the conversation for GOAT. But not before.

    Brady is the MSOAT (Most Successful of All Time) in the NFL – that is indisputable. He is not GOAT. There is a big difference between the two.

  66. The article is replete with cognitive dissonance. Some athletes are lauded for post season accomplishments, others have them ignored. There needs to be a hook to spur readership and the all important click count. When you need eyes on something simply add some Brady controversy. ESPN 101

  67. Wow, what a joke! I think they used a dart board and a blindfold. The selection process took place at a bar near the ESPN campus on a thirsty Thursday.

  68. While Manning only had moderate playoff success, it’s much more impressive when you consider the management he played under. Give him 17 years with Bill Belichick / Robert Kraft and I guarantee you he would have won a lot more Super Bowls. If Brady played most of his career for Jim Irsay, John Fox and Jim Caldwell he would have won a lot less if any.

  69. Tiger was only dominant for half of the past 20 years. He last won a major in 2008, hasn’t won a PGA event in 5 years, and is only relevant now because of his name. I love him as a golfer and he’s by far and away the most dominant golfer in the last 40 years or so, but #1 in the last 20? Nope.

    Serena Williams should be #1 and the only person close to her is Federer.

  70. secutorum says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

    ==============

    Defensive DVOA’s for Pats SB runs:
    2017 – 31st
    2016 – 16th
    2013 – 20th
    2011 – 30th
    2007 – 11th
    2004 – 7th
    2003 – 2nd
    2001 – 13th

    Some good ones, none truly dominating. Mostly they had a penchant for making the big play, but stat wise they were never the best, and some were out right bad.

    And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.

    And Manning had truly great receivers in Wayne and Harrison along with the great weapons on Denver.

  71. i dont recall peyton or his team ever losing draft picks and having massive fines levied for (minor, bwhahahaha) camera placement issues, including having all the supposed(minor, bwhahahahahaha) 1 time only camera placement issue, DESTROYED PERSONALLY BY THE NFL COMMISH…….

    tainted forever..

    peyton over the cheater anyday.

    Remember after the (minor, bwhahahahahahhaha) camera placement issues, and the cover up by destroying the evidence, the next times the cheaters were in the sb, eli made two-hard tommie his bitch….and the next two were gifts from horrible calls by the opposing offensive coordinators…

    so two yard tommie would have been a four time loser, and lest we all forget, a BACK UP QB outplayed and outgunned two yard tommie, whose MAJOR FUMBLE AT THE CRITICAL POINT, COST THEM THE GAME…

    thanx to his fumble, the patriots OWN THE WORST SUPERBOWL RECORD IN HISTORY WITH FIVE LOSSES….

    peyton over the cheater, tainted forever…3 time loser Two Yard Tommi…

  72. Tiger #1? No doubt He belongs on the list and ya he is sort of getting better but he has been a shell of himself maybe even below PGA average since his wife hit him with a golf club. Manning at 3? Again he belongs on the list but nowhere near 3. Apparently roids were not a factor, Barry. Brady at #20? They guy just keeps winning and is responsible for the wins on a team that keeps changing rosters year after year taking the Pats to at least the AFC Championship game every year at a position that is arguably the most important position in any team sport.

  73. secutorum says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    “Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England ”

    ===========

    And too bad Bledsoe, Cassel and Garrapolo all had better years AFTER leaving the Pats.

  74. A NASCAR driver? Really? How did they leave off the great bowlers and dart throwers of our time? How does athleticism play into driving?

  75. The Pro Football Hall of Fame has the same criteria about not including the post season when voting in New members. How do you think Bill Polian and Tony Dungy got in?

  76. Peyton Manning changed the way the position is played. So did Montana. So did Unitas. So did many of the greats. Brady? Never changed the position whatsoever.

    Someone once said Manning was the best QB they ever saw and that Brady is a Manning wannabe he needs to be more cerebral like Manning in how he plays the game. Before Pat fan thumbs this post down, that wasn’t a fan or a media guy or a hater of the Patriots who said that. He is a current NFL QB, and just played in a Super Bowl. Oh and he happens to wear a Patriots #12 jersey. Go figure.

  77. Floyd Mayweather is undefeated and held titles in 5 different weight classes. What else would ESPN want the guy to do? Retiring with NO LOSSES is just total and complete dominance.

  78. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm
    In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships. People underestimate how good those early 2000s Patriots defenses were. They didn’t have big names like the Ravens but they were every bit as good.
    ______________________________________________

    And Peyton was along for the ride in his last SB, and sucked during the playoffs his entire career. He has something like 9 “one and done”. At what point does he get some of the blame? If you are the number 1 or 2 seed in your conference going into the playoffs how can your team suck? Peyton couldn’t get it done when it mattered.

  79. secutorum says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

    =====================

    So Jordan isn’t an all time great because of Phil Jackson? Your argument doesn’t hold up.

  80. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:56 pm

    Peyton Manning changed the way the position is played. So did Montana. So did Unitas. So did many of the greats. Brady? Never changed the position whatsoever.

    Someone once said Manning was the best QB they ever saw and that Brady is a Manning wannabe he needs to be more cerebral like Manning in how he plays the game. Before Pat fan thumbs this post down, that wasn’t a fan or a media guy or a hater of the Patriots who said that. He is a current NFL QB, and just played in a Super Bowl. Oh and he happens to wear a Patriots #12 jersey. Go figure.

    ===========================

    Brady just won an MVP at 40 and has many players flocking to his preparation methods and training regime. That equals changing the game.

  81. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm
    In all honesty, Brady was just along for the ride in 3 of those 5 championships. People underestimate how good those early 2000s Patriots defenses were. They didn’t have big names like the Ravens but they were every bit as good.

    ================================

    Brady won a superbowl with Earthwind Moreland and WR Troy Brown playing cornerback. He has never had a losing season. Peyton Manning went 3-13 his first year playing in the league,setting a new record for interceptions. Tom Brady won a superbowl after falling into the starting QB role part way into the season.

    In the Ravens “big” year, they played a dumpster fire of starting QBs, all backups and garbage players eg: Jamie Martin, Akili Smith, Scott Mitchell (the old creaky one), Tim Couch, Doug Pederson and Spergon Wynn… etc etc…

  82. They only used regular season DAVAR to rank the QB’s. Everything else was colored bubbles. Manning does have a better regular season DAVAR than Brady. Manning has that going for him, which is nice.

  83. NHL players play every other night for two months straight against the same teams for a while series in order to win the hardest trophy in sports. And not one of them is up there?

  84. There are 8 names on that list that I do not recognize or know what sport they play. Then add Woods who hasn’t won anything of importance in 10 years and was disgraced; Bonds who has been retired for years and was similarly disgraced;and Trout, who is an excellent young player who hasn’t won a thing and the list has precisely zero credibility.

  85. aarons444 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:37 pm

    P. Manning played his worst in big games. He was a choke. Brady is the opposite.
    =====

    Manning post-season rating – 87.4

    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9

    Practically the same player

    =====================

    Other than Brady being the all time leader in playoff 4th qtr comebacks yea, they are the same.

  86. LOL at ESPN somehow getting olympians Usain Bolt and Allyson Felix into the list but missing Michael Phelps, who should be #1 on the list. Bolt and Felix were great, Phelps was the greatest of all over the last 20 years.

  87. Question for Patriots’ fans. Just a couple years ago, Brady, Montana, and Terry Bradshaw were all tied with the most super wins at 4. The argument for the greatest ever was strictly between Montana and Brady. If the most super bowl wins means you’re the best QB, why wasn’t Bradshaw ever mentioned as equals, when they were all 3 tied with four wins? I’ll answer the question. It’s because we consider the teams these guys were on.

  88. hellooooooooooobrooklyn says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:05 pm
    In no particular order, without repeating the same sport twice, top 5 most dominant athletes of the past 20 years:
    Woods
    Federer
    Brady
    Phelps
    James
    ————————————————–

    Excellent top 5.

  89. And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.
    =========
    This is a very disingenuous line used against Belichick, as nobody really believes that Brady would have improved on the Patriots 5 win total in 2000.

    The Brady era started in 2001. And the KC game where Brady got hurt in the first quarter counts as a game without Brady as well. Therefore, Belichick’s actual record as a Pat head coach without Brady should be regarded as 14-6. Maybe even 14-4 if you discount the first two games of 2001. Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14. The numbers speak for themselves.

    Amazing how Pat fan is so quick to disrespect Belichick when they try sticking up for Tom.

  90. bvolke says:
    March 20, 2018 at 12:55 pm
    Brady had better teams but Manning was the better quarterback.

    ———-

    Who the better QB is may be subjective, but Brady had far worse players around him on offense for many seasons. That’s not even a question.

  91. ftomasic1961 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:54 pm
    i dont recall peyton or his team ever losing draft picks and having massive fines levied for (minor, bwhahahaha) camera placement issues, including having all the supposed(minor, bwhahahahahaha) 1 time only camera placement issue, DESTROYED PERSONALLY BY THE NFL COMMISH…….
    tainted forever..
    peyton over the cheater anyday.
    Remember after the (minor, bwhahahahahahhaha) camera placement issues, and the cover up by destroying the evidence, the next times the cheaters were in the sb, eli made two-hard tommie his bitch….and the next two were gifts from horrible calls by the opposing offensive coordinators…
    so two yard tommie would have been a four time loser, and lest we all forget, a BACK UP QB outplayed and outgunned two yard tommie, whose MAJOR FUMBLE AT THE CRITICAL POINT, COST THEM THE GAME…
    thanx to his fumble, the patriots OWN THE WORST SUPERBOWL RECORD IN HISTORY WITH FIVE LOSSES….
    peyton over the cheater, tainted forever…3 time loser Two Yard Tommi…

    ———–

    What do you remember about Joe Montana. 4 Super Bowl wins. What will people remember about Brady. 5 Super Bowl wins. That’s all that matters. You will have to live with that forever or until someone other than Brady gets 6. Have fun.

  92. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:01 pm

    secutorum says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

    =====================

    So Jordan isn’t an all time great because of Phil Jackson? Your argument doesn’t hold up.

    ======================================
    One player can dominate a game in basketball. Not so in football.

    Football is a team sport in every way. Every single one of Brady’s “wins” and “rings” are a team accomplishment, not a Brady exclusive accomplishment.

  93. E!SPN new what they were doing making this list, drum up a little controversy and shill for peyton to come work there all at once. I love Peyton, but since Brady beat Seattle for his 4th ring that ship has sailed. And left Montana behind after beating atl. Everything thing else is gravy.

    It’s like he either has to win the Superbowl literally EVERY SINGLE year or hes a nobody. say what you will, plenty of people don’t like him and that’s fine, but the guy gets no respect. And it’s weird. It’s like people are pissed he won’t hurry up and go away and let Rodgers take over.

    I bet ratings plummet further after hes gone.

  94. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:10 pm

    aarons444 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:37 pm

    P. Manning played his worst in big games. He was a choke. Brady is the opposite.
    =====

    Manning post-season rating – 87.4

    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9

    Practically the same player

    =====================

    Other than Brady being the all time leader in playoff 4th qtr comebacks yea, they are the same.

    ==============================
    Wins are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.

  95. aarons444 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:37 pm
    P. Manning played his worst in big games. He was a choke. Brady is the opposite.
    =====
    Manning post-season rating – 87.4
    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9
    Practically the same player

    ———–

    What does QB rating have to do with winning exactly? They aren’t necessarily correlated. Matt Ryan had a 144.1 rating in Super Bowl 51.

    Both are great players, but Brady has won more and has been better in the biggest moments in general. Not to mention he is still going.

  96. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm
    And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.
    =========
    This is a very disingenuous line used against Belichick, as nobody really believes that Brady would have improved on the Patriots 5 win total in 2000.
    The Brady era started in 2001. And the KC game where Brady got hurt in the first quarter counts as a game without Brady as well. Therefore, Belichick’s actual record as a Pat head coach without Brady should be regarded as 14-6. Maybe even 14-4 if you discount the first two games of 2001. Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14. The numbers speak for themselves.
    Amazing how Pat fan is so quick to disrespect Belichick when they try sticking up for Tom.

    ————

    No question that any version of Brady was better than Drew Bledsoe in 2000, so yeah, he would have improved on the 5-11 record from 2000. No question.

  97. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:01 pm

    secutorum says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:41 pm

    Surprised Brady made the top 20. As an athlete, your mom is probably better. He just had the luck to be in BBs system that doesn’t ask much of the quarterback. Manning had a crap line, average receivers (that PM made great) and no defense. Brady had defense, average offensive weapons, and BB telling him what to do. Patriot backups performed as well or better than Brady when he was injured or suspended, but had no luck outside of New England and BBs system.

    Brady want to be an all time great? Win a SB without BB. Not gonna happen.

    =====================

    So Jordan isn’t an all time great because of Phil Jackson? Your argument doesn’t hold up.

    ======================================
    One player can dominate a game in basketball. Not so in football.

    Football is a team sport in every way. Every single one of Brady’s “wins” and “rings” are a team accomplishment, not a Brady exclusive accomplishment.

    ==========================

    Sure, but you could apply that just as easily to any other football player. And you completely overstate the Pats backup performance. Bledsoe, Cassel and Garrapolo all had better years after leaving NE.

  98. Interesting since the write up on Brady specifically calls out all his post-season performances;

    “Brady claims more postseason wins as starting quarterback (27) than do 27 franchises. His Super Bowl victories (five) outnumber the all-time playoff-win tallies for one team (the still new-ish Texans) and match another’s (the not-at-all new-ish Bengals). Since 2006, Brady has six of the top 30 postseason QBR performances — his closest competitor is Peyton Manning, with three”

    ESPN is a joke.
    Brady is the GOAT!

  99. It’s reporting like this that is driving ESPN out of business! They lack credibility in everything they do. Refuse to watch the channel for any form of programming.

  100. Is ESPN still trying to hire Manning? What better way than feed into his ego by creating this list. The only list he should be on the top of is the list of the biggest stat monger, endorsement monger and post-season under performer. But then again this is ESPN.

  101. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.
    =========
    This is a very disingenuous line used against Belichick, as nobody really believes that Brady would have improved on the Patriots 5 win total in 2000.

    The Brady era started in 2001. And the KC game where Brady got hurt in the first quarter counts as a game without Brady as well. Therefore, Belichick’s actual record as a Pat head coach without Brady should be regarded as 14-6. Maybe even 14-4 if you discount the first two games of 2001. Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14. The numbers speak for themselves.

    Amazing how Pat fan is so quick to disrespect Belichick when they try sticking up for Tom.

    ======================

    Not disingenuous at all as Brady began with the Pats in 2000, the same year as Belichick. And Pats roster didn’t change much from 2000-2001 especially on offense and was led by a multi-Pro Bowl QB. Brady became the X factor and galvanized the team to a miraculous Super Bowl run. Its extremely disingenuous not to consider it. It makes no sense not to.

  102. bullcharger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    What do you remember about Joe Montana. 4 Super Bowl wins. What will people remember about Brady. 5 Super Bowl wins. That’s all that matters. You will have to live with that forever or until someone other than Brady gets 6. Have fun.

    =========================
    Montana was as cool as any professional athlete I’ve ever seen in the biggest moments and under the most pressure. That’s what people remember about him. People will remember Peyton’s cerebral mind that he brought to the game. They will also remember his accuracy. Young and how he extended plays. Favre too. Elway too plus his arm. Marino’s arm, arguably the best pure passer ever. Unitas, the godfather of the position and how he revolutionized passing. Bradshaw’s toughness. Stabler’s toughness. Kurt Warner and how he too changed offense in the modern era.

    Brady? You said it. They will remember his wins. That’s it. Not any other element of his game nor how great he played the position. Not one thing about Brady and the way he plays the position is memorable and no story will be told about it 20, 30, 40 years from now. Just his wins.

    MSOAT (Most Successful Of All Time) quarterback right from the textbook. Who benefited from one of the greatest coaches of all time in any sport, along with his clutch soon to be HOF kicker who won him a couple of Super Bowls.

    Not even close to GOAT.

  103. Brady is not the Goat. People just say he is because has more superbowl wins. Grading someone just on SB wins is absurd. Is Blount the greatest RB of all time? Because he won 3 Superbowls. Barry Sanders won none. You accurately grade Brady vs Manning you have to ask what were the primary reasons for the success of the teams? The Colts own the Superbowl the one year with Manning……ONLY BECAUSE OF HIM. He had the worst defense in the league or close to it. Brady has been surrounded by top notch talent almost every year.

  104. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:24 pm
    Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:10 pm
    aarons444 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:37 pm
    P. Manning played his worst in big games. He was a choke. Brady is the opposite.
    =====
    Manning post-season rating – 87.4
    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9
    Practically the same player
    =====================
    Other than Brady being the all time leader in playoff 4th qtr comebacks yea, they are the same.
    ==============================
    Wins are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.

    ————

    Uh…. all football stats are a team accomplishment. To pass the ball, the OL has to block, the WR has to catch, etc. And if you can’t run the ball then you can’t pass, so the RB matters too. Not to mention the offensive design matters. So you have to look at football and say who contributed most to those stats or those wins. Winning is the ultimate stat because that is the point of the game. Not to get passing TDs. Would a QB be worse if he had Tomlinson on his team and threw the ball to the 1 and let LT run it in or would he be better because he made a good choice instead of throwing the ball. Passing TDs are subjective along with other stats unless you look at them in the context of winning games.

  105. this is the reason why no one watches that idiotic network. Can’t wait for Disney to gut it and blame it on the “data”

  106. All things being equal, Manning was so much smarter than Brady. Peyton didn’t have an out of wed kid with some Hollywood chick he dumped.

  107. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14

    ============================

    Ah the old “suck for Luck” tanking year when the cut most of their decent players. Great example…eye roll.

  108. This list lost any credibility it may have had the moment it called Tiger Woods an athlete, let alone placed him at a the head of a meaningless, click-bait list. Golf is NOT a sport, and while athletes can play golf and golphers are capable of playing actual sports, golphers are NOT athletes.

    Signed,

    Former Golpher and athlete

  109. Manning post-season rating – 87.4

    Tom Brady post-season rating – 90.9

    Practically the same player
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Now do the same comparison in SBs and see how they compare.

  110. Wins are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Braz, make up your mind. Do wins count for QBs or no? In an earlier post you said Brady can’t be considered GOAT until he wins a SB without BB, like Peyton did. Forgetting the fact that Peyton was one of the worst QBs in the league that year and missed 8 games, you are giving him credit for winning a SB. But then you claim wins are a team accomplishment, which is it?

  111. All athletes who didn’t cheat please step forward….NOT SO FAST, TOM!

  112. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.
    =========
    This is a very disingenuous line used against Belichick, as nobody really believes that Brady would have improved on the Patriots 5 win total in 2000.

    The Brady era started in 2001. And the KC game where Brady got hurt in the first quarter counts as a game without Brady as well. Therefore, Belichick’s actual record as a Pat head coach without Brady should be regarded as 14-6. Maybe even 14-4 if you discount the first two games of 2001. Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14. The numbers speak for themselves.

    Amazing how Pat fan is so quick to disrespect Belichick when they try sticking up for Tom.

    ======================

    Not disingenuous at all as Brady began with the Pats in 2000, the same year as Belichick. And Pats roster didn’t change much from 2000-2001 especially on offense and was led by a multi-Pro Bowl QB. Brady became the X factor and galvanized the team to a miraculous Super Bowl run. Its extremely disingenuous not to consider it. It makes no sense not to.

    =====================================
    I would argue that Antowain Smith, who was a Buffalo Bill in 2000 and joined the Patriots in 2001 was an extremely underrated factor in the Patriots winning the Super Bowl and allowing Brady to develop. His presence allowed Brady to learn by starting as as a game manager like he did that year. Not every QB gets that luxury. Smith had a tremendous year if I remember correctly. Allowed Brady to check down to the running game as needed or throw it out to him. Smith really was a bull back there. In fact he with Vinatieri both deserved MVP in that Super Bowl game, not Brady.

    Put Brady on that 2000 team he would have been destroyed, no question about it. It is disingenuous to fault Belichick for not starting the 3rd (or was he the 4th?) stringer that year and using those games as games “without Brady”.

  113. What does QB rating have to do with winning exactly?
    =====

    Brady and Manning have virtually the same post-season rating. Manning trails by what?.. a single td?.. 2 yards more per attempt?

    Yet 1 of those 2 is a “choker” in the Playoffs??………

    You kids and your new math…

  114. Now do the same comparison in SBs and see how they compare.
    =====

    I’m well aware that the Patriots were the better team.

    That’s not the question here.

  115. terripet says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:10 pm
    Manning changed the quarterback position

    ————-

    True….he needed Bill Polian to change the rules for covering receivers so that Peyton could win a postseason game. Plus he is the only QB with 9 one-and-done appearances in the playoffs

  116. Grading someone just on SB wins is absurd. Is Blount the greatest RB of all time? Because he won 3 Superbowls. Barry Sanders won none.
    =============================
    Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler all have 1 Super Bowl ring each. Dan Marino has none.

    Nobody with a brain considers any of those guys better than Marino.

    Brady has those rings because his team won them. He is part of the team and he did his thing to help them win…but rings and wins are and always will be a TEAM accomplishment. Not a QB accomplishment.

  117. Yeah, look at Brady’s championships. Two won by the Vinatieri? And who can forget the game won by Butler? I’m sure you can swap Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisburger in the NE system and still have all the same results. Brady is overrated.

  118. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm
    bullcharger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    What do you remember about Joe Montana. 4 Super Bowl wins. What will people remember about Brady. 5 Super Bowl wins. That’s all that matters. You will have to live with that forever or until someone other than Brady gets 6. Have fun.

    =========================
    Montana was as cool as any professional athlete I’ve ever seen in the biggest moments and under the most pressure. That’s what people remember about him. People will remember Peyton’s cerebral mind that he brought to the game. They will also remember his accuracy. Young and how he extended plays. Favre too. Elway too plus his arm. Marino’s arm, arguably the best pure passer ever. Unitas, the godfather of the position and how he revolutionized passing. Bradshaw’s toughness. Stabler’s toughness. Kurt Warner and how he too changed offense in the modern era.

    ———–

    If Joe was as cool under pressure as you say then why was only able to advance to the SB a measly four times? What happened the rest of the seasons?

  119. If Brady plays two more years his regular season stats will surpass PManning in every category. That tells you all you need to know about this list.

  120. To compare value of coaches / organization / systems: in 2008 Tom Brady missed the year and the Patriots went 11-5 vs. 2011 when Peyton Manning missed the year and the Colts went 2-14.

  121. pamiho32332013 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:52 pm

    Yeah, look at Brady’s championships. Two won by the Vinatieri? And who can forget the game won by Butler? I’m sure you can swap Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisburger in the NE system and still have all the same results. Brady is overrated.

    ================================

    If you go that route, you MUST also say one SB lost by a “helmet catch” and a dropped INT? another lost by a drop by Mr. Surehanded, Wes Welker?

    Brady gave his team a 4th quarter/OT lead in ALL EIGHT Super Bowls. He conceivably could be 8-0 if the defense locked it down.

  122. nhpats says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:52 pm

    Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm
    bullcharger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    What do you remember about Joe Montana. 4 Super Bowl wins. What will people remember about Brady. 5 Super Bowl wins. That’s all that matters. You will have to live with that forever or until someone other than Brady gets 6. Have fun.

    =========================
    Montana was as cool as any professional athlete I’ve ever seen in the biggest moments and under the most pressure. That’s what people remember about him. People will remember Peyton’s cerebral mind that he brought to the game. They will also remember his accuracy. Young and how he extended plays. Favre too. Elway too plus his arm. Marino’s arm, arguably the best pure passer ever. Unitas, the godfather of the position and how he revolutionized passing. Bradshaw’s toughness. Stabler’s toughness. Kurt Warner and how he too changed offense in the modern era.

    ———–

    If Joe was as cool under pressure as you say then why was only able to advance to the SB a measly four times? What happened the rest of the seasons?

    ============
    Because he played in a far superior conference with far superior opponents compared to what Brady has had to face. Bigger, better, tougher opponents, with much better coaching compared to today. The NFC West wasn’t awesome back then but it was certainly a lot better than the AFC Least is today.

    Joe was unmatched in how cool he was under pressure. Brady – not so much. Case in point: Getting in refs faces and demanding flags or yelling at coaches or talking trash to other players. Montana never needed to do any of that stuff because that’s not who he was. There will never be another like him.

  123. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:34 pm

    No, because wins are a TEAM accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.
    —————————

    What did Manning accomplish, all on his own, without help from the rest of the team?

  124. If Joe was as cool under pressure as you say then why was only able to advance to the SB a measly four times? What happened the rest of the seasons?
    =====

    Because the Giants were able to win 2, and nearly ended Montana’s career in the process on two occasions.

    Gibbs Redskins were a dynasty in their own right, winning 3, going to 4 in Montana’s era.

    Montana faced better completion.

    Brady has no rival.

  125. Much in the same way that Wilt Chamberland would be #1 and Bill Russell would be #20. one has superior individual stats (excluding playoffs, of course); and the other was superior in making those around him better players.

  126. aarons444 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:44 pm

    What does QB rating have to do with winning exactly?
    =====

    Brady and Manning have virtually the same post-season rating. Manning trails by what?.. a single td?.. 2 yards more per attempt?

    Yet 1 of those 2 is a “choker” in the Playoffs??………

    You kids and your new math…

    =========================

    Well Peyton is tied as all time leader in playoff pick 6’s, so he’s got Brady beat there. And he’s 3rd all time overall in pick 6’s.

  127. I’m well aware that the Patriots were the better team.

    That’s not the question here.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    What does that have to do with anything? The argument was on playoff QB ratings. I said, look at the more narrow SB rating and see how they compare. You know, math and everything

  128. aarons444 says:

    Brady has no rival.

    =================

    Yeay, progress! And he’s done it in a much harder era than Montana too, which I’ve already proven to you.

  129. Tom Bum shouldn’t even be on list if you want to be frank. We don’t accept cheaters, and specially after getting spanked by a backup QB in the SUPER BOWL of all games, sad but TRUE!!!!! Haters this goes to you deal WITH IT!!!!

  130. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:59 pm

    nhpats says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:52 pm

    Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm
    bullcharger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:20 pm

    What do you remember about Joe Montana. 4 Super Bowl wins. What will people remember about Brady. 5 Super Bowl wins. That’s all that matters. You will have to live with that forever or until someone other than Brady gets 6. Have fun.

    =========================
    Montana was as cool as any professional athlete I’ve ever seen in the biggest moments and under the most pressure. That’s what people remember about him. People will remember Peyton’s cerebral mind that he brought to the game. They will also remember his accuracy. Young and how he extended plays. Favre too. Elway too plus his arm. Marino’s arm, arguably the best pure passer ever. Unitas, the godfather of the position and how he revolutionized passing. Bradshaw’s toughness. Stabler’s toughness. Kurt Warner and how he too changed offense in the modern era.

    ———–

    If Joe was as cool under pressure as you say then why was only able to advance to the SB a measly four times? What happened the rest of the seasons?

    ============
    Because he played in a far superior conference with far superior opponents compared to what Brady has had to face. Bigger, better, tougher opponents, with much better coaching compared to today. The NFC West wasn’t awesome back then but it was certainly a lot better than the AFC Least is today.

    Joe was unmatched in how cool he was under pressure. Brady – not so much. Case in point: Getting in refs faces and demanding flags or yelling at coaches or talking trash to other players. Montana never needed to do any of that stuff because that’s not who he was. There will never be another like him

    =======================

    Yea he was so cool because his linemen where wearing silicon spray, his WR was using stickum and at least one of his LB’s was using PEDs

  131. blessedunliketherest says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:42 pm

    Wins are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Braz, make up your mind. Do wins count for QBs or no? In an earlier post you said Brady can’t be considered GOAT until he wins a SB without BB, like Peyton did. Forgetting the fact that Peyton was one of the worst QBs in the league that year and missed 8 games, you are giving him credit for winning a SB. But then you claim wins are a team accomplishment, which is it?
    =======================================
    Wins are always a team accomplishment. But Brady leading a new team away from Belichick to one proves that there is merit to the argument that he is the greatest of all time, as he would have had to win it on his own, without the benefit of the Patriots system without Belichick, arguably the greatest head coach in history.

    People get greatness and success confused very easily. They are not that comparable.

  132. Brady’s post-season record is 27-10 in total 37 games. And that’s more than two full regular seasons! They do realize the post-season is one game elimination format, right? To participate that many playoff games is staggering and you are telling me they don’t count?! Isn’t the idea of sport is to watch athletes if they can succeed under pressure? Isn’t the idea of doing well in the regular season is to place yourself in the best position to succeed in the playoff? Peyton Manning has NINE one and done in the playoff! When he wins, it’s all his credit. But when he lose so it’s the team’s fault now? This is mindboggling logic. A logic only belongs to ESPN!

  133. flipola says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    Where in the name of His Airness is Michael Jordan?!
    ———————–

    Has he played basketball in the last 20 years?

  134. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:57 pm

    pamiho32332013 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:52 pm

    Yeah, look at Brady’s championships. Two won by the Vinatieri? And who can forget the game won by Butler? I’m sure you can swap Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisburger in the NE system and still have all the same results. Brady is overrated.

    ================================

    If you go that route, you MUST also say one SB lost by a “helmet catch” and a dropped INT? another lost by a drop by Mr. Surehanded, Wes Welker?

    Brady gave his team a 4th quarter/OT lead in ALL EIGHT Super Bowls. He conceivably could be 8-0 if the defense locked it down.

    =============
    If Brady played better in Super Bowls perhaps there would be no need for him to give the team a 4th quarter lead because they’d already have it. Surely it’s not too much to ask for a guy considered the GOAT by many to have at least one Super Bowl game where he is great from start to finish. Hasn’t happened yet. The closest he’s come to doing that is Super Bowl 38 and he still almost blew the game with a terrible INT in the 4th quarter.

  135. Newsflash, Brady and the Pats are serial cheaters. How many times have they been busted losing millions in fines and draft choices? Didn’t Brady have to take a seat last year for 4 games for what, playing bingo? Sorry Tommy, you don’t even belong on this list.

  136. Yea he was so cool because his linemen where wearing silicon spray, his WR was using stickum and at least one of his LB’s was using PEDs

    ================
    Terrible reply. But you knew that.

    Pat fan better hope that Brady isn’t getting other kinds of “treatment” from his little buddy Guerrero that we don’t know about that allows him to play this long. And you know what I’m referring to. Deflategate didn’t destroy his legacy but something being discovered at TB12 certainly will.

  137. turtlehut says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:57 pm
    To compare value of coaches / organization / systems: in 2008 Tom Brady missed the year and the Patriots went 11-5 vs. 2011 when Peyton Manning missed the year and the Colts went 2-14.

    This is always a dumb argument

  138. So ESPN rates a QB who was a sex offender and used PED’S ahead of others who never accused of any of those things. Just wondering does ELI have a 2018 game used jerseys available yet ?

  139. domedaddy says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:35 pm
    All things being equal, Manning was so much smarter than Brady. Peyton didn’t have an out of wed kid with some Hollywood chick he dumped.

    ===========

    Brady has been a great father to all his kids and he never had to apologize for any “tea bagging” incidents in college either, there, papa john.

    As far as Brady not winning without Butler, that was an epic play but who scored two touchdowns in the fourth quarter against the best defense in the league? Yeh.

  140. scoops1 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:08 pm

    Nice to see em give a nod to an NHL player….
    ********************
    The self anointed worldwide leader in sports doesn’t provide any coverage and doesn’t even try to hide their disdain for anything NHL, since they didn’t get the renewed TV contract. NBC and Pierre McGuire have their pants around their ankles for Pittsburgh, which makes trying to watch an NHL game with Pierre blathering away, pretty much impossible.

    ESPN has repeatedly shown their bias for the Patriots, has never back tracked on an obviously phony narrative around deflategate, which has readily exposed them as a shock entertainment network first and foremast, and a sports programming network a distant second.

    Bottom line is the ESPN has no credibility producing a list like this.

  141. NOT A CHANCE. Brady is truly the better athlete. Manning might be the classier of the two but I’d take Brady 4th and long with no time left on the clock. As usual ESPN is behind the curve.

  142. All of the super bowls which the Patriots lost with Tom Brady as QB were the defense’s poor play. Tom Brady left the field in each of those games with the lead.

  143. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 3:09 pm

    blessedunliketherest says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:42 pm

    Wins are a team accomplishment, not a QB accomplishment.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Braz, make up your mind. Do wins count for QBs or no? In an earlier post you said Brady can’t be considered GOAT until he wins a SB without BB, like Peyton did. Forgetting the fact that Peyton was one of the worst QBs in the league that year and missed 8 games, you are giving him credit for winning a SB. But then you claim wins are a team accomplishment, which is it?
    =======================================
    Wins are always a team accomplishment. But Brady leading a new team away from Belichick to one proves that there is merit to the argument that he is the greatest of all time, as he would have had to win it on his own, without the benefit of the Patriots system without Belichick, arguably the greatest head coach in history.

    People get greatness and success confused very easily. They are not that comparable.
    ===================

    Pats being 18-19 without Brady starting is a good place to start with 33 of those 37 games started by a QB who went to a Pro Bowl

  144. I mean, even the Brady haters/Peyton lovers need to admit that making this comparison and leaving out the playoffs is laughable. Brady holds almost ever meaningful playoff QB record, not to mention is in the top 3 of most regular season records. They may as well leave out games played in Foxboro over the last 20 years as well since the list couldn’t be any more arbitrary.

  145. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:05 pm
    fireroger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:54 pm

    If Brady plays two more years
    =========
    He won’t.
    =========================
    His contract and ego would suggest otherwise.

  146. dangguy says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:23 pm

    All of the super bowls which the Patriots lost with Tom Brady as QB were the defense’s poor play. Tom Brady left the field in each of those games with the lead.
    ==================================
    Brady was horrible in both Giants Super Bowls. And he didn’t play well enough in the first half vs Eagles to change the result.

  147. I guess the best rebuttal is, why is it that an overwhelming majority of players, ex-players, coaches, executives, writers, etc. consider Brady to be the GOAT? What is it that these people are missing and ESPN has figured out?

  148. It’s ESPN, what do you expect? Brady controversy makes anything interesting and ESPN is no longer interesting.

  149. Remember that time ESPN lost double digit subscribers and fired hundreds of people because its president was a cokehead? Good times.

  150. Brady led his team to Super Bowl losses against two Giants teams that may be the worst and second worst teams to ever win a Super Bowl.

    And he was bad enough in both games to be responsible for both those losses. Think of that when you’re wondering why people say he is not GOAT.

  151. blessedunliketherest says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:33 pm

    I guess the best rebuttal is, why is it that an overwhelming majority of players, ex-players, coaches, executives, writers, etc. consider Brady to be the GOAT? What is it that these people are missing and ESPN has figured out?

    ================
    People confuse success with greatness, as I mentioned above. Understandable but they are not that comparable.

  152. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:44 pm

    Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm

    Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    And Belichick is 18-19 as Pats HC without Brady starting, sorry dude.
    =========
    This is a very disingenuous line used against Belichick, as nobody really believes that Brady would have improved on the Patriots 5 win total in 2000.

    The Brady era started in 2001. And the KC game where Brady got hurt in the first quarter counts as a game without Brady as well. Therefore, Belichick’s actual record as a Pat head coach without Brady should be regarded as 14-6. Maybe even 14-4 if you discount the first two games of 2001. Compare that to the Colts record when Peyton was out for the year. 2-14. The numbers speak for themselves.

    Amazing how Pat fan is so quick to disrespect Belichick when they try sticking up for Tom.

    ======================

    Not disingenuous at all as Brady began with the Pats in 2000, the same year as Belichick. And Pats roster didn’t change much from 2000-2001 especially on offense and was led by a multi-Pro Bowl QB. Brady became the X factor and galvanized the team to a miraculous Super Bowl run. Its extremely disingenuous not to consider it. It makes no sense not to.

    =====================================
    I would argue that Antowain Smith, who was a Buffalo Bill in 2000 and joined the Patriots in 2001 was an extremely underrated factor in the Patriots winning the Super Bowl and allowing Brady to develop. His presence allowed Brady to learn by starting as as a game manager like he did that year. Not every QB gets that luxury. Smith had a tremendous year if I remember correctly. Allowed Brady to check down to the running game as needed or throw it out to him. Smith really was a bull back there. In fact he with Vinatieri both deserved MVP in that Super Bowl game, not Brady.

    Put Brady on that 2000 team he would have been destroyed, no question about it. It is disingenuous to fault Belichick for not starting the 3rd (or was he the 4th?) stringer that year and using those games as games “without Brady”.

    ================

    I didn’t fault Belichick for not starting Brady earlier, but the roster on offense wasn’t much different from that year (and obviously from weeks 1 and 2) and Brady made the leap in year 2 and outperformed a franchise QB. Antowan Smith was good, but not great, especially in that era of RBs and wasn’t a check down back really as he only had 19 catches. It was a big deal in Boston that year as Bledsoe got healthy and stayed on the bench. Pats just signed Bledsoe to a 100mil deal the previous off season, yet Belichick kept rolling with Brady. And Vinatieri doesn’t get a chance to kick without Brady. That SB win was an outstanding team effort but switch Bledsoe in for Brady, and I don’t think it still happens.

  153. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm

    dangguy says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:23 pm

    All of the super bowls which the Patriots lost with Tom Brady as QB were the defense’s poor play. Tom Brady left the field in each of those games with the lead.
    ==================================
    Brady was horrible in both Giants Super Bowls. And he didn’t play well enough in the first half vs Eagles to change the result.

    ===================

    He was definitely good enough to put his team in position to win while getting crushed by a talented defensive line

  154. This is hilarious! I have not laughed so hard at a PFT article in such a long time. Thank you for your mockery!!!! Completely appropriate and commensurate for the time. Great job, MDS. Love it.

  155. AROD and Pujols should definitely be in over Bonds and Trout. Their primes covered more of the time span given, thus had a greater impact. Not saying their careers were overall better.

  156. People confuse success with greatness, as I mentioned above. Understandable but they are not that comparable.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Got it, so everyone else is wrong except you and ESPN. Good to know. Please explain how they are not comparable? Most people say Brady is the GOAT because he has both the stats and hardware to back it up. Its not just one. He will likely retire as the top QB in every meaningful QB metric. Just saying Manning was “cerebral” or whatever junk you throw out doesn’t cut it. Manning has great stats, weighted heavily towards the regular season. He play dropped off in the playoffs, more specifically in SBs. That is why he is not really regarded by many as the GOAT. The argument is usually Brady or Montana. As you like to say, these are just facts. Sorry if you don’t like it.

  157. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm
    dangguy says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:23 pm
    All of the super bowls which the Patriots lost with Tom Brady as QB were the defense’s poor play. Tom Brady left the field in each of those games with the lead.
    ==================================
    Brady was horrible in both Giants Super Bowls. And he didn’t play well enough in the first half vs Eagles to change the result.

    ———

    Counting Super Bowls and AFC Championship games, Brady has played in 20 championship games. He lost some… That happens. It’s amazing what he’s been able to do though.

  158. Brady is by now better than Peyton in the regular season anyway. And he doesn’t have to be a goal line TD throwing, greedy stat padder either.

  159. Any medal winning decathlete from the last 7 olympics should be numbered 1-21. The former bruce jenner was a better athlete than anyone on that list.

  160. ESPN is proving to me , on a daily basis, I made the correct choice cutting the cord. I dropped Direct TV after 20 + years and use the streaming service Fubo for live TV and sports channels. They have a unique package that skips adding both CNN and ESPN> I will drop them if they ever add them. ESPN figures by creating controversy they can get viewers but they have a produck molded from Dung.

  161. lol….i would rather watch Spongebob over ESPN…
    Manning 2…lol….I would take Brady over Manning 365 days a year….Brady could easily be 8-0 in super bowls, yes he could also be 0-8…but Brady is easily best QB i have ever seen and will ever see, and Brady is more funny than Manning too

  162. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:37 pm
    Brady led his team to Super Bowl losses against two Giants teams that may be the worst and second worst teams to ever win a Super Bowl.
    And he was bad enough in both games to be responsible for both those losses. Think of that when you’re wondering why people say he is not GOAT.

    ——–

    It’s all about how you play on game day. Montana missed the playoffs, he also lost 3 conf championship games. Losses are part of football. Heck, Peyton suffered one of the worst Super Bowl beatings in history after a historically great regular season. He knows this well.

    However, anyone objective understands this and can see that Brady is the greatest of all time.

  163. agent7x6 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:51 pm

    I’ll look again, but I didn’t see Michael Jordan.
    ———————-

    What part of “of the last 20 years” is confusing you folks?

  164. mmack66 says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:12 pm

    Has he played basketball in the last 20 years?

    Ah, got me there, I jumped straight to the list. That would explain Mike Trout.

  165. The Truth says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:09 pm
    Any medal winning decathlete from the last 7 olympics should be numbered 1-21. The former bruce jenner was a better athlete than anyone on that list.

    ———–

    Don’t confuse being a well rounded athlete with an exceptional athlete. Decathletes aren’t even close to the best at any of their own disciplines, let alone at a competitive team sport.

  166. “Tom Brady led the league in TDs the first full season he played, and he was throwing to an average at best group of receivers. But cool story I guess.”

    Perhaps you should have mentioned Tom Brady had 28 TDs and Peyton Manning had 27 TDs that year. Only 1 TD behind. You should also have mentioned that Peyton had a higher passer rating, game winning drives, comebacks, than Brady that year.

    There is really little debate about how the early 2000s Patriots teams were constructed. They were defensive teams, played great special teams, played great in the trenches, and ran the football. Brady did not lead those teams, they led him to 3 SBs.

  167. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm

    Brady was horrible in both Giants Super Bowls. And he didn’t play well enough in the first half vs Eagles to change the result.
    ==================================
    Coming from somebody who thinks Foles outperformed Brady.

  168. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:37 pm
    Brady led his team to Super Bowl losses against two Giants teams that may be the worst and second worst teams to ever win a Super Bowl.

    And he was bad enough in both games to be responsible for both those losses. Think of that when you’re wondering why people say he is not GOAT.
    ======================
    Tell that to Mannigham and Tyree. Both would most likely disagree with you.

  169. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:

    March 20, 2018 at 4:24 pm

    “Tom Brady led the league in TDs the first full season he played, and he was throwing to an average at best group of receivers. But cool story I guess.”

    Perhaps you should have mentioned Tom Brady had 28 TDs and Peyton Manning had 27 TDs that year. Only 1 TD behind. You should also have mentioned that Peyton had a higher passer rating, game winning drives, comebacks, than Brady that year.

    There is really little debate about how the early 2000s Patriots teams were constructed. They were defensive teams, played great special teams, played great in the trenches, and ran the football. Brady did not lead those teams, they led him to 3 SBs.

    =======================
    Pats defensive DVOA

    2004 – 7th
    2003 – 2nd
    2001 – 13th

    Good, not nearly the Ravens or Bucs D of that era though. Brady was just as integral as the defense’s big play making ability. There’s a reason Pats sat their 100mil QB for him.

  170. staffordwives9999 says:

    March 20, 2018 at 1:05 pm

    Steroids induced Barry Bonds… How about Barry Sanders

    The article is the last 20years. Keep your bankrupted town players out of the list.

  171. So many comments from people who cant seem to separate individuals from teams.

    This isnt a list of greatest champions or biggest winners.

    Peyton Manning was a better QB than Brady, deal with it.

    That doesn’t mean Brady and the Patriots didn’t win more, but that’s not what this list is.

  172. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 3:38 pm

    blessedunliketherest says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:33 pm

    I guess the best rebuttal is, why is it that an overwhelming majority of players, ex-players, coaches, executives, writers, etc. consider Brady to be the GOAT? What is it that these people are missing and ESPN has figured out?

    ================
    People confuse success with greatness, as I mentioned above. Understandable but they are not that comparable.
    ==============

    28-3 was pretty great

  173. You deserve to be mocked if you think it is Mike Trout’s fault he has not played in world series- this site is known for its intelligence, but championships=everything is an argument made by people who are unable to think

  174. Brady led his team to Super Bowl losses against two Giants teams that may be the worst and second worst teams to ever win a Super Bowl.

    And he was bad enough in both games to be responsible for both those losses. Think of that when you’re wondering why people say he is not GOAT.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Yet Tom Brady’s worst SB performance is only slightly behind Peyton’s best. The same Peyton Manning who has more INTs then TDs in the biggest games of his career, not to mention one of the single worst SB performances ever. Think of that when you’re wondering why no one really argues Manning is the GOAT.

  175. What’s funny will be when\if Brady surpasses all of Manning’s regular season records and he doesn’t sit at #2. I would suggest holding off on getting the patent for that 5 step process.

  176. So I take it if Brady is so great, if he were traded to the Browns they would be in the SB next year. I don’t know what you Pats fans are smoking, but it’s gotta be good

  177. ESPN stating that playoff performances don’t count in this is really bizarre. It would be like discounting the final day of any golf or tennis major or a gold medal round or Daytona 500. Its when the stakes are the highest, why shy away from that?

  178. dualprime says:

    March 20, 2018 at 4:55 pm

    Manning threw for at least 25 touchdowns in 16 seasons — three more than Brady.

    =====================

    If Brady woke up tomorrow with P.Manning’s career, he wouldn’t be able to stop throwing up.

  179. dualprime says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:55 pm
    Manning threw for at least 25 touchdowns in 16 seasons — three more than Brady.

    ————

    And that matters why? It didn’t lead to more wins, which is the point of playing.

  180. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:24 pm
    “Tom Brady led the league in TDs the first full season he played, and he was throwing to an average at best group of receivers. But cool story I guess.”
    Perhaps you should have mentioned Tom Brady had 28 TDs and Peyton Manning had 27 TDs that year. Only 1 TD behind. You should also have mentioned that Peyton had a higher passer rating, game winning drives, comebacks, than Brady that year.
    There is really little debate about how the early 2000s Patriots teams were constructed. They were defensive teams, played great special teams, played great in the trenches, and ran the football. Brady did not lead those teams, they led him to 3 SBs.

    ————–

    Just stop.

  181. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:38 pm
    blessedunliketherest says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:33 pm
    I guess the best rebuttal is, why is it that an overwhelming majority of players, ex-players, coaches, executives, writers, etc. consider Brady to be the GOAT? What is it that these people are missing and ESPN has figured out?
    ================
    People confuse success with greatness, as I mentioned above. Understandable but they are not that comparable.

    ————

    You ever think maybe you are the one making the mistake as opposed to so many other actual experts?

  182. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 5:03 pm
    ESPN stating that playoff performances don’t count in this is really bizarre. It would be like discounting the final day of any golf or tennis major or a gold medal round or Daytona 500. Its when the stakes are the highest, why shy away from that?

    ————

    So that Brady finishes exactly 20th and it creates a heated discussion.

  183. doctormantistoboggan says:
    March 20, 2018 at 1:10 pm
    Brady will always be known for throwing the best 6-yard bubble screen of all time.

    Yards per Completion – Career
    Tom Brady 11.8

    Let’s see who is below him!
    Peyton Manning 11.7
    Carson Palmer 11.7
    Eli Manning 11.7
    Matthew Stafford 11.6
    Matt Ryan 11.5
    Drew Brees 11.3

    And his last three have been above his career average. Also, on yards per attempt, what the uninformed haters like to throw out, Brady has averaged 7.5 yards for his career. The Mighty Peyton has a career YPA of 7.7 yards while Brees is at 7.6 and Matt Ryan is at 7.5 yards.

  184. udub says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:39 pm
    So many comments from people who cant seem to separate individuals from teams.
    This isnt a list of greatest champions or biggest winners.
    Peyton Manning was a better QB than Brady, deal with it.
    That doesn’t mean Brady and the Patriots didn’t win more, but that’s not what this list is.

    ————–

    There are no individual records in Football. Yards passing = snapping + throwing + blocking + catching + running for example.

    However, yards passing doesn’t necessarily correlate to wins, which is the whole point of playing football.

    Looking good and not winning is useless.

    Peyton was a great player, because he got to 4 Super Bowls and 5 AFC Championships and won 2 Super Bowls. Not because he passed for all those yards. It’s irrelevant. If he did all that and won no Super Bowls he would be Dan Marino, and where is he in this conversation. Nowhere.

  185. PFT and ESPN got what they wanted out of this list: controversy and attention.

    PS Golfers and racecar drivers aren’t athletes. Sportsmen, yes. Athletes, no.

  186. Patriots fans have been saying for years that ESPN deliberately trolls us on a regular basis. This is just more of the same. It’s been like this since they fired Bill Simmons for (correctly) calling Roger Goodell a liar.

    This list is a self-parody. The only way they could write this list to fulfill its intended purpose is to discard playoff performances. So that’s what they did.

    Even by the logic of the list it’s ridiculous. How do they have Marta ahead of Serena Williams? Serena is, hands down, the best female tennis player ever. She could arguably be ahead of Tiger and everybody else.

  187. I take it if Brady was a Brown this year they would be in the SB.
    =====

    They’d be the first team to win 2 in a single season.

    Brady V Ditka… who wins?

    Daaaaaaaaa Brady

  188. Peyton Manning has 600 TD’s passing/rushing in regular season and playoff games combined.
    Tom Brady has 582 TD’s passing/rushing in regular season and playoff games combined.
    Manning has started 4 more games.

  189. What about that Kobe Bryant kid? I heard he was pretty good at playing basketball during the past 20 years… or even Shaq?

  190. As far as ‘athletes’ neither Brady nor Manning belong in the top 20. As far as QBs Brady is GOAT and Manning is in the top 10 somewhere.

  191. schwamtek says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:54 pm
    So I take it if Brady is so great, if he were traded to the Browns they would be in the SB next year. I don’t know what you Pats fans are smoking, but it’s gotta be good
    =========================
    Certainly not. But then again the same would also be true of Manning. His post-season record proves that 1000 times over. 🙂

  192. Bar None says:

    March 20, 2018 at 5:18 pm

    Brady has that many rings because of AV’s leg.

    =================

    Would’ve had more rings if Welker makes the catch or Tyree doesn’t. Football often comes down to a couple plays.

  193. bullcharger says:

    March 20, 2018 at 5:11 pm

    Chill_Donahue says:
    March 20, 2018 at 5:03 pm
    ESPN stating that playoff performances don’t count in this is really bizarre. It would be like discounting the final day of any golf or tennis major or a gold medal round or Daytona 500. Its when the stakes are the highest, why shy away from that?

    ————

    So that Brady finishes exactly 20th and it creates a heated discussion.

    =================

    True, but it also hurts Michael Phelps for some reason. Strange he isn’t on there. And I would certainly take 15+ years of Arod or Pujols over 6.5 yrs of Trout in that given time span.

  194. I know Brady is a Trump supporter so probably guys like phelps and pujols are also. You lose points for that obviously.

  195. The list has one glaring omission.

    Kelly Slater should be Top 10.

    11x World Champion doing something that would drown 75% of the athletes listed.

    Surfing is The Sport of Kings.

    Everything else is just…..cute.

  196. ha! the choker #3 and the Champ what? get manning in a big game, or outside his dome in rough weather and he was abysmal. i guess minor facts like championships and being the greatest pressure qb of all time were ignored. wonder if these clowns watched any of those 8 magnificent performances. brady carried teams on his back, manning stunk even the 2 measly times they won.

  197. ha! the choker #3 and the Champ what? get manning in a big game, or outside his dome in rough weather and he was abysmal. i guess minor facts like championships and being the greatest pressure qb of all time were ignored. wonder if these clowns watched any of those 8 magnificent perforance

  198. “if brady woke up with peyton manning’s career he couldn’t stop throwing up”

    sir, you are a poet! i think that brilliantly states what made made brady the greatest athletic competitor of all time and why manning always fell short in the big moments.

  199. Brady had 2 gifted SB wins, by 2 different teams. Beyond that, Brady has not had a SB win greater than 6 points, and only then due to scoring in OT where the opponent team doesn’t have an opportunity to touch the ball. Brady has had the luxury of only playing with 1 team, and playing his entire career with Belechik. So many advantages Brady has had. And yes, he’s a great player. But w/o the gifted SB’s Brady is 3-5 in SB win’s and doesn’t have a SB win since 2004. So in short, Brady needed help from his opponent to win 2 SB’s.

  200. Brady “the cheater” probably paid off ESPN to get in the top 20, all 5 Superbowl “wins” are tainted or gifts from his opponents play calling and/or the officials. When he was up against the Giants and Eagles, his true skills were evident when he had the ball last and couldn’t make the play.

  201. Makes sense to me, A golfer and a race car driver (is that even a sport?) have more athleticism than an NFL quarterback. Yeah, right.

  202. The “Entertainment” part of ESPN is the same as the one in WWE.

    If you smellllaaalllaaallaaalllaaalllaaaaaa, what the Rock is cooking.

  203. Tom Brady shouldn’t be in any records since he already cheated couple times. He deserved nothing.

  204. skawh says:
    March 20, 2018 at 6:32 pm
    Brady had 2 gifted SB wins, by 2 different teams. Beyond that, Brady has not had a SB win greater than 6 points, and only then due to scoring in OT where the opponent team doesn’t have an opportunity to touch the ball. Brady has had the luxury of only playing with 1 team, and playing his entire career with Belechik. So many advantages Brady has had. And yes, he’s a great player. But w/o the gifted SB’s Brady is 3-5 in SB win’s and doesn’t have a SB win since 2004. So in short, Brady needed help from his opponent to win 2 SB’s.

    ===//=/======.

    So, by your logic, Brady also was robbed 2 SBs by a miracle catch and a dropped int in one, and a dropped pass by Walker in the other. Also he was robbed of another SB appearance by 2 Reche Caldwell drops against the Colts in 06,. Football games often swing on just a couple plays, that’s why it’s a great game.

  205. Jimmy Johnson belongs, and I’m not particularly a fan of his. People think it’s just “driving”.

    Take the hairiest high-speed moment you’ve ever had in a car, and imagine it for nearly 3 hours straight.

    They’re athletes, and Johnson is the best ever in his sport.

  206. What’s laughable is when people try to discredit Brady because of his loses to the Giants/Eagles in the SB or say he was “gifted” SBs by his opponents (whatever that means), but conveniently leave out how bad Manning was in SBs. Manning has something like a 77 QB rating in SBs and one of his wins came in a game where he was the worst player on the field (had a 56 QB rating that game). Manning has more INTs than TDs in the SB as well. I mean, how can one possibly ignore this in the context of this article, while also bashing Brady for his games against the Giants?

    What you actually find is more people taking cheap shots at Brady or throwing out the usual cheater comment because there is just no football argument left to try and prove Brady is not the GOAT.

  207. Braz….
    1. Take a breath man

    2. The beating that you’ve taken from Brady over the years is clearly very painful. Join the long list and relax. It wasn’t personal.

    Manning and Brady are both great.

  208. I dreaded the prospect of my team facing Peyton Manning. Like I said already seeing Manning line up against my team made me cringe. You know your team was facing an all time great.

    Never felt that way about Brady. Didn’t cringe even once. The guy to fear on the Patriots was always Coach Belichick. The way I see it without Coach Belichick, Tom Brady is likely a JAG or even out of football now. The question about who made the Patriots what they are is a very easy one to answer. It’s Bill.

    Pat fan might not agree or like my opinion but that’s not my problem.

  209. bashing Brady for his games against the Giants?
    ==========
    Saying Brady was horrible against the Giants isn’t “bashing”, its the truth. He sucked big time in both games.

  210. So, by your logic, Brady also was robbed 2 SBs by a miracle catch and a dropped int in one, and a dropped pass by Walker in the other.

    ========
    Not really. The throw that went Samuel’s way wasn’t that catchable. The Welker “drop” which was partially on Brady didn’t lose that game. Brady’s brutal intentional grounding safety did. Take that away and it’s a 2 point game, completely changing the outlook of how that last drive played itself out.

    Pat fan will be in denial but the fact remains Brady to date has not played a consistent and complete Super Bowl game from start to finish in 8 tries. A guy being hyped as GOAT probably should have done so at least once by now.

  211. What else would one expect from a network that makes up pretend statistics like QBR?

    ESPN = Exaggerated Stories & Pretend Numbers

  212. What a joke. How do you not put the most decorated Olympian in there? Michael Phelps certainly deserves to be in this list.

  213. Where is Eli Manning? If Brady is the GOAT, what is the guy who beat him twice on the world’s biggest stage (including the undefeated regular season)?!?!

  214. I feel we have to give ESPN some credit. If they had put Phelps at #1 on the list, where he belongs, and Brady at #2 or #3 on the list, where he belongs, and Manning maybe in the top ten, no one would be talking or posting about the list.

    The incompetence of the list has ESPN almost relevant again for a day or two.

  215. Just my two cents…

    if the Pats were not involved in the controversies they have been, Brady would be considered by all (not just Pats fans) to be the UGOAT (U meaning undisputed, of course). Whether you believe that is justified is another argument, but I do think we can all agree that the statement is true. Take away Spygate and the Deflating controversy, or the communications malfunctions at Foxboro, or whatever other controversy, Brady and the Pats would be considered unparalleled. Those facts are mostly what’s holding them back.

    I think this article would be wise to note that.

    The football arguments against Brady are summarized thusly-Brady has worked with the same head coach (also regarded as an all time great, possibly greatest of all time if not for the controversies) for his entire career. Manning was more individually responsible for his team’s success (or failure), and even if we think he did a worse job than Brady, we should all be able to acknowledge that Manning’s team only went only as far he himself did as a QB. That’s why he has more MVPs but fewer SBs than Brady. Whether that is your standard for being a better player is another argument, but I think we can solidly say that Manning’s teams’ success or failure depended more on him than Brady’s did. My opinion on this is that is more a testament to the capability of the Pats and of Brady himself to understanding how championships are won than it is an indictment of his personal skill, but it also brings up the question of whether Manning was smart to distrust the Colts. I mean, Brady has treated the Pats well, and for the most part, the Pats have treated him well. I can’t say the same for Manning, and I don’t think we can either.

    Bottom line, I don’t think either QB is really that much better or worse than the other. If you didn’t have one of these two, you’d kill to have either. But we do know the difference in capability the Colts front office has in comparison to the Pats over the last decade or so, and that shouldn’t be up for debate. Either way, ESPN is looking for clicks-just like this site or any other would do.

  216. The feud between Brady Belichick and ESPN continues. Awesome, I say! Another log on the fire for Brady.

  217. What’s laughable is when people try to discredit Brady because of his loses to the Giants/Eagles in the SB
    =====

    And why wouldn’t people argue that?

    The only argument your lot has to discredit Montana are his losses in NFCC Games, or Elway and his disastrous SBs.

    It works both ways, or it doesn’t work at all.

  218. Braz says:

    March 20, 2018 at 9:58 pm

    I dreaded the prospect of my team facing Peyton Manning. Like I said already seeing Manning line up against my team made me cringe. You know your team was facing an all time great.

    Never felt that way about Brady. Didn’t cringe even once. The guy to fear on the Patriots was always Coach Belichick. The way I see it without Coach Belichick, Tom Brady is likely a JAG or even out of football now. The question about who made the Patriots what they are is a very easy one to answer. It’s Bill.

    Pat fan might not agree or like my opinion but that’s not my problem.

    =====================

    There’s no evidence Brady would be “out of football” without Belichick (who is 18-19 without Brady starting). There is evidence that Belichick could have lost his job after his 2nd year with the Pats if not for Brady galvanizing the team. Kraft likely wouldn’t have put up with 3rd straight season of missing playoffs with a second year coach and a newly minted 100mil QB. Brady obviously wasn’t the stat monster he would later become, but there’s little argument that his presence made a huge difference.

  219. Manning was more individually responsible for his team’s success (or failure), and even if we think he did a worse job than Brady, we should all be able to acknowledge that Manning’s team only went only as far he himself did as a QB.

    —-

    Wait—I thought Tony Dungy was a HOF coach, no? Nothing there?

    That, and the bounty of HOF-worthy offensive weapons didn’t help Manning either? Brady had to make due (with very few exceptions) with guys no one wanted and ones that disappeared after they left New England.

    Belichick gets monster credit for his coaching ability, but he’s never played a snap on the field. He’s able to do what he’s done as a direct result of having Brady, i.e., getting away with having porous defenses and still getting to the Super Bowl with an even shot at winning it.

    Brady has dragged more than a few sub par Pats rosters to the big game. You can’t say it about anyone else in history.

  220. What’s really laughable is when people try to discredit Brady because the Colts had a high school JV caliber quarterback as their back up QB instead of an NFL caliber QB. Apparently it’s Tom Brady’s fault that Bill Polian was a poor GM. Sour Grapes much?

  221. And why wouldn’t people argue that?

    The only argument your lot has to discredit Montana are his losses in NFCC Games, or Elway and his disastrous SBs.

    It works both ways, or it doesn’t work at all.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    You conveniently left out the entire sentence to try and make your argument. What I said was, its laughable to discredit Brady for those loses while conveniently leaving out how bad Manning played in SBs. I’ve never said Brady shouldn’t take some heat for losing (although tough to put much blame on him for this past SB). It was a Brady/Manning agrument, but nice trying to take out of context by not including the entire sentence.

    Also, just an FYI, my “lot” includes people like Elway, Aikman, Rodgers, just to name a few, who are all on record calling Brady the GOAT. I’ll take my lot over yours and Braz’s any day of the week.

  222. Biggests sports lie perpetrated by an alleged sports network—–“11-0f-12 footballs were two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum”, Chris Mortenson. That was a blatant lie and it started ESPNs fall. The fall continues and no one really cares. See ya ESPN.

  223. steelcurtainn says:
    March 20, 2018 at 8:20 pm
    Both Mannings are better then Brady and they didn’t cheat to get where they are.
    ———————–
    Huh, no Big Ben on that list?

  224. aarons444 says:
    March 21, 2018 at 10:31 am

    What’s laughable is when people try to discredit Brady because of his loses to the Giants/Eagles in the SB
    =====

    And why wouldn’t people argue that?

    The only argument your lot has to discredit Montana are his losses in NFCC Games, or Elway and his disastrous SBs.

    It works both ways, or it doesn’t work at all.
    =============================
    Preach.

  225. switchwitch59 says:
    March 21, 2018 at 11:25 am

    What’s really laughable is when people try to discredit Brady because the Colts had a high school JV caliber quarterback as their back up QB instead of an NFL caliber QB. Apparently it’s Tom Brady’s fault that Bill Polian was a poor GM. Sour Grapes much?
    ==================
    Nobody is discrediting Brady with that argument, we’re saying it’s a testament to Coach Belichick that his team didn’t fall off a cliff with Brady’s absence. It’s why Manning has always meant more to the Colts than Brady meant to the Patriots. It’s not close.

    Look at it this way. Have Brady and Manning switch teams in their prime. Are the Colts a better team? No way. Are the Patriots a better team? Absolutely! By a mile.

  226. You conveniently left out the entire sentence to try and make your argument. What I said was, its laughable to discredit Brady for those loses while conveniently leaving out how bad Manning played in SBs. I’ve never said Brady shouldn’t take some heat for losing (although tough to put much blame on him for this past SB). It was a Brady/Manning agrument, but nice trying to take out of context by not including the entire sentence.

    Also, just an FYI, my “lot” includes people like Elway, Aikman, Rodgers, just to name a few, who are all on record calling Brady the GOAT. I’ll take my lot over yours and Braz’s any day of the week.
    ========
    Brady sucked in both Giants losses. He was ordinary for a half vs Eagles and then great for 28/30 minutes in the second half. Also Brady “won” a Super Bowl with an 86 passer rating. That’s not discrediting anyone, that’s laying it out like it happened.

    People clearly confuse success with greatness. I don’t. I don’t think Trent Dilfer is greater than Dan Marino because of Dilfer winning a ring and Marino not winning one.

  227. There’s no evidence Brady would be “out of football” without Belichick (who is 18-19 without Brady starting). There is evidence that Belichick could have lost his job after his 2nd year with the Pats if not for Brady galvanizing the team. Kraft likely wouldn’t have put up with 3rd straight season of missing playoffs with a second year coach and a newly minted 100mil QB. Brady obviously wasn’t the stat monster he would later become, but there’s little argument that his presence made a huge difference.
    ==========
    Brady would no doubt be out of football without Coach Belichick. Probably wouldn’t have been drafted at all, maybe picked up by someone as their third stringer UDFA and bounced around the league practice rosters a few years and that would have been it. A wiry kid with an average arm, little mobility and little accuracy has no place in the NFL without arguably the greatest coach in history and a perfect system protecting him and letting him get better.

  228. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 10:12 pm
    Not really. The throw that went Samuel’s way wasn’t that catchable. The Welker “drop” which was partially on Brady didn’t lose that game. Brady’s brutal intentional grounding safety did. Take that away and it’s a 2 point game, completely changing the outlook of how that last drive played itself out.

    Pat fan will be in denial but the fact remains Brady to date has not played a consistent and complete Super Bowl game from start to finish in 8 tries. A guy being hyped as GOAT probably should have done so at least once by now.
    ==================
    -Sigh- same ole same ole I see.

    When constraining the conversation to Manning\Brady your argument is still indefensible. Manning hasn’t played a consistent and complete Super Bowl game from start to finish either. No matter how you slice it, Brady’s SB #s are on par or better than Manning’s. It’s fine if you want to hold that consistency against Brady so long as you reciprocate for the person supposedly better than him.

    It’s difficult to take you seriously when you claim a safety on the first offensive series of the game (in a 4 pt game) had more of an impact than an arguably dropped pass. While not entirely incorrect it reeks of desperation to prove a point that has little to no merit.

  229. fireroger says:
    March 20, 2018 at 5:38 pm

    schwamtek says:
    March 20, 2018 at 4:54 pm
    So I take it if Brady is so great, if he were traded to the Browns they would be in the SB next year. I don’t know what you Pats fans are smoking, but it’s gotta be good
    =========================
    Certainly not. But then again the same would also be true of Manning. His post-season record proves that 1000 times over.
    ===========================================
    Did you know that one year ago Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had the exact same postseason passer rating? It’s true.

    Brady of course got lots of home games and easy paths to byes playing in the AFC Least his whole career. Peyton had no such luxury and didn’t need to.

  230. I dreaded the prospect of my team facing Peyton Manning. Like I said already seeing Manning line up against my team made me cringe. You know your team was facing an all time great.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    And what team would that be?

  231. “Wait—I thought Tony Dungy was a HOF coach, no? Nothing there?

    That, and the bounty of HOF-worthy offensive weapons didn’t help Manning either? Brady had to make due (with very few exceptions) with guys no one wanted and ones that disappeared after they left New England.

    Belichick gets monster credit for his coaching ability, but he’s never played a snap on the field. He’s able to do what he’s done as a direct result of having Brady, i.e., getting away with having porous defenses and still getting to the Super Bowl with an even shot at winning it.

    Brady has dragged more than a few sub par Pats rosters to the big game. You can’t say it about anyone else in history.”

    Belichick knows the right time to let guys go that’s why many players on both sides of the ball have gone on to not have the same success after leaving the Patriots. Has very little to do with not playing with Brady anymore. So I can’t agree that Brady played with scrubs.

    I always ask people in these debates, what exactly does Brady do that other competent QBs couldn’t do if they played for the Patriots? Are there specific throws only Brady can make? Does he design plays?

  232. Braz says:
    March 21, 2018 at 12:01 pm

    Nobody is discrediting Brady with that argument, we’re saying it’s a testament to Coach Belichick that his team didn’t fall off a cliff with Brady’s absence. It’s why Manning has always meant more to the Colts than Brady meant to the Patriots. It’s not close.

    Look at it this way. Have Brady and Manning switch teams in their prime. Are the Colts a better team? No way. Are the Patriots a better team? Absolutely! By a mile.
    ==========================
    Interesting. Help the feeble minded and illuminate “by a mile”. Is there something quantifiable you are basing this on? I suspect not but it might garner a few chuckles to see you try.

  233. Braz says:

    Nobody is discrediting Brady with that argument, we’re saying it’s a testament to Coach Belichick that his team didn’t fall off a cliff with Brady’s absence. It’s why Manning has always meant more to the Colts than Brady meant to the Patriots. It’s not close.

    Look at it this way. Have Brady and Manning switch teams in their prime. Are the Colts a better team? No way. Are the Patriots a better team? Absolutely! By a mile.

    ====================

    Belichick winning pct. as Pats HC:

    with Brady starting – .781 (196-55)
    without Brady starting – .486 (18-19)
    overall – .743 (214-74)

    And 33 of the 37 games without Brady starting were started by a QB who went to at least 1 Pro Bowl (and with Garrapolo soon to be added). And Bledsoe, Cassel and Garrapolo all had better years after leaving the Pats.

    And Colts with Brady would certainly be a better playoff team.

  234. Braz says:
    March 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    Did you know that one year ago Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had the exact same postseason passer rating? It’s true.

    Brady of course got lots of home games and easy paths to byes playing in the AFC Least his whole career. Peyton had no such luxury and didn’t need to.
    ===========================================
    Yet there is a discrepancy of 17 spots on that list and you’re supporting that gap despite what you just posted above.

    Manning also had MUCH better weapons. Throughout his ENTIRE career.

  235. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:

    March 21, 2018 at 12:28 pm

    Belichick knows the right time to let guys go that’s why many players on both sides of the ball have gone on to not have the same success after leaving the Patriots. Has very little to do with not playing with Brady anymore. So I can’t agree that Brady played with scrubs.

    I always ask people in these debates, what exactly does Brady do that other competent QBs couldn’t do if they played for the Patriots? Are there specific throws only Brady can make? Does he design plays?

    =======================================

    Why is Brady the only player Belichick decided to keep all these years? Your “Brady is a system QB” argument does not make it past this question.

  236. Braz says:
    March 21, 2018 at 12:19 pm

    Did you know that one year ago Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had the exact same postseason passer rating? It’s true.

    Brady of course got lots of home games and easy paths to byes playing in the AFC Least his whole career. Peyton had no such luxury and didn’t need to.

    ======================================

    Manning also like Brady enjoyed plenty of byes in his career, but he also enjoyed playing INSIDE.

    And Brady’s winning pct. is pretty equal across the board no matter who they have played.

    vs. NFL .775

    vs. AFC East .792
    vs. AFC .778
    vs. NFC .766

  237. Braz – what word would you use to describe Manning’s SB play? Manning’s best SB rating was an 88.5. Brady’s worst was a 82.5. Manning also “won” his two SBs with an 81.8 and 56.6 rating, respectively. You keep pointing out how bad Brady played against the Giants. How do you explain Manning’s play in all his SB appearances?

  238. Nobody is discrediting Brady with that argument, we’re saying it’s a testament to Coach Belichick that his team didn’t fall off a cliff with Brady’s absence.
    ======

    They love their double standards.

    Brady is a saint for getting to 8 Super Bowls, losing 3 of them… Montana is trash because he couldn’t beat Belichick and Gibbs dynasty at times during his run.

    Belichick doesn’t get any credit for putting together the last truly competitive Browns team in 3 decades.. if not for the move to Baltimore, is he the guy that wins the Super Bowl in ’99? Never even getting to Superfanville?

    They can’t be reasoned with.

    Its not worth the effort.

    Let them do their George Wendt impression. Its amusing at least.

  239. Brady has dragged more than a few sub par Pats rosters to the big game. You can’t say it about anyone else in history.
    =====

    Name one team Brady “dragged” to the Super Bowl?

    And I most certainly can name a guy that has; 2011 Eli Manning.

    You want to talk about “dragging” a bad team?! 25th in scoring defense, 27th in yards allowed. How the blue h@ll did the Pats lose to that team? That’s embarrassing.

    I would argue late-80s John Elway as well, but less so, because the D was more solid than people care to remember.

  240. Brady is a saint for getting to 8 Super Bowls, losing 3 of them… Montana is trash because he couldn’t beat Belichick and Gibbs dynasty at times during his run.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Who has ever called Montana trash? That’s not accurate. And if someone has, they clearly are just trolling. But if Brady gets dinged for losing 3 SBs, its just as accurate to call out Montana for only making it to 4 SBs. That’s not a double standard, its called a rebuttal.

  241. “Why is Brady the only player Belichick decided to keep all these years? Your “Brady is a system QB” argument does not make it past this question.”

    As I stated previously, Belichick knows just the right time to let players go, the fact the he had not until last year if the rumors were correct then it wasn’t the right time. QBs on average have longer NFL careers compared to other players, so I’m not surprised he has been the longer player under Belichick. It certainly doesn’t prove or disprove anything.

  242. I have a rule to which I never comment on rankings/lists because they are too subjective. This on the other hand is the worst sports publication i’ve read EVER. Won’t even bother with the countless amout of name dropping, let’s just be blunt and say whomever wrote that garbage needs to find another career and shame on ESPN for letting it go public.

  243. Pat fan for some reason loves putting the words “system QB” out there in Brady topics and accuse other people of using that label. Not sure why. Nobody really believes that Brady is a system QB and anyone who says he is is just doing it to bait Pat fan.

    And it works every time.

    Very strange how insecure they are.

  244. But if Brady gets dinged for losing 3 SBs
    =========
    Nobody is dinging Brady for losing 3 Super Bowls, but fans myself included rightfully have very high standards when assessing the performance of a guy that people want to think is GOAT. When I say he sucked in a game it’s because he did, relative to those standards.

    Don’t like how he’s criticized or think that’s unfair…then stop calling him GOAT. I can roll with that.

  245. March 21, 2018 at 5:29 pm

    Nobody is dinging Brady for losing 3 Super Bowls, but fans myself included rightfully have very high standards when assessing the performance of a guy that people want to think is GOAT. When I say he sucked in a game it’s because he did, relative to those standards.

    Don’t like how he’s criticized or think that’s unfair…then stop calling him GOAT. I can roll with that.
    =========
    Sigh – Manning can avoid criticism as GOAT despite Brady performing better in the post season and soon to be the regular season. Think about that for a minute while you’re writing off all these excuses to homerism.

    How about this … remove Manning from the GOAT discussion and you won’t have a problem.

  246. Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:09 pm

    Wins are always a team accomplishment. But Brady leading a new team away from Belichick to one proves that there is merit to the argument that he is the greatest of all time, as he would have had to win it on his own, without the benefit of the Patriots system without Belichick, arguably the greatest head coach in history.

    People get greatness and success confused very easily. They are not that comparable.
    =======================================
    Understanding of course that if Brady did that he will have still not revolutionized the position in some manner similar to the other QBs you listed previously. It would still boil down to the same MSOAT conversation after you move the goal posts again. You’d only entertain the consideration of Brady due to the sheer absurdity of not doing so more than you actually wanting to. Despite that already being the case.

  247. Manning can avoid criticism as GOAT despite Brady performing better in the post season and soon to be the regular season. Think about that for a minute while you’re writing off all these excuses to homerism.
    =====

    Brady DIDN’T perform better. Their post-season ratings are practically identical.

    Bradys TEAMS were collectively better, hence, they have more Titles and Super Bowls.

  248. aarons444 says:
    March 21, 2018 at 6:19 pm

    Brady DIDN’T perform better. Their post-season ratings are practically identical.

    Bradys TEAMS were collectively better, hence, they have more Titles and Super Bowls.
    ==================
    Again, if the post-season ratings are “practically identical”. It would seem more than fair and reasonable to include Brady as part of the GOAT discussion. More so when you consider Brady could match or surpass Manning by the time he retires. You don’t have to include the team accomplishments to have the discussion. That’s the point!

  249. aarons444 says:
    March 21, 2018 at 6:19 pm

    Brady DIDN’T perform better. Their post-season ratings are practically identical.

    Bradys TEAMS were collectively better, hence, they have more Titles and Super Bowls.
    ====================. ====/==/=

    Too bad Peyton is tied for 1st in playoff pick 6’s. And 28-3 dude, 28-3.

  250. @patsfan4blife

    Still didn’t answer question. Belichicks signature as a GM is replacing talent with cheaper equivalents, why was is Brady the lone exception? This is indisputable proof he’s not a system QB.

  251. Brady DIDN’T perform better. Their post-season ratings are practically identical.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    How about SBs? Peyton Manning has more INTs then TDs , not to mention one of the single worst SB performances ever with a QB rating of 57. For all SBs played, there is an over a 20-point difference in QB rating in favor of Brady (77 vs. 98). But yea, they are practically the same except in the most important games of their careers.

  252. Another measure of a QB is how he is regarded by his opponents. Watch the Pats comeback from 3-28 a few years ago and listen to the comments of the Atlanta players BEFORE the comeback (greatest in SB history BTW) even started.

    “Omaha Omaha Omaha!!”

    Sigh

  253. I stopped reading at the headline Espn ranks…

    however I did scroll to the list and OF COURSE espn would not have any Hockey players listed! Greatest rivalry in sports…espn vs hockey!


  254. Still didn’t answer question. Belichicks signature as a GM is replacing talent with cheaper equivalents, why was is Brady the lone exception? This is indisputable proof he’s not a system QB.

    I already did, Belichick replaces players at just the right time. If he kept Brady it means it wasn’t the right time to replace him at least until last year if the rumors in the ESPN article were true. He was going to move forward with Garoppolo.

    Looking back at how the season unfolded I have to say Belichick was right once again. The team could have won the SB last year with Garoppolo.

  255. blessedunliketherest says:
    March 21, 2018 at 9:16 pm

    Brady DIDN’T perform better. Their post-season ratings are practically identical.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    How about SBs? Peyton Manning has more INTs then TDs , not to mention one of the single worst SB performances ever with a QB rating of 57. For all SBs played, there is an over a 20-point difference in QB rating in favor of Brady (77 vs. 98). But yea, they are practically the same except in the most important games of their careers.
    ============================
    Any quip about Peyton Manning is not relevant in any way to the fact that the 2011 and 2007 Giants, definitely the worst and arguably the second worst teams in NFL history respectively to win Super Bowls, both won their titles at the expense of Tom Brady and his team.

    And both times it was mostly Brady’s fault. In the case of 2007, Brady had a once in a generation chance to lead his team to immortality and he failed spectacularly on the biggest stage the sporting world has ever seen.

    If you’re calling this guy MSOAT (Most Successful of All Time) as a QB… no argument from me. But he ain’t no GOAT.

    Success =/= Greatness

  256. fireroger says:
    March 21, 2018 at 5:55 pm

    March 21, 2018 at 5:29 pm

    Nobody is dinging Brady for losing 3 Super Bowls, but fans myself included rightfully have very high standards when assessing the performance of a guy that people want to think is GOAT. When I say he sucked in a game it’s because he did, relative to those standards.

    Don’t like how he’s criticized or think that’s unfair…then stop calling him GOAT. I can roll with that.
    =========
    Sigh – Manning can avoid criticism as GOAT despite Brady performing better in the post season and soon to be the regular season. Think about that for a minute while you’re writing off all these excuses to homerism.

    How about this … remove Manning from the GOAT discussion and you won’t have a problem.
    ========================================
    Nobody is saying Brady isn’t great.

    But my standards for the label of Greatest of All Time are very high, as it should be. GOAT’s do not fall on their faces to the worst and second worst Super Bowl winner of all time (Giants). GOAT’s are feared. Manning was feared. Nobody fears Brady nearly as much as his coach.

    Again… Success =/= Greatness

  257. fireroger says:
    March 21, 2018 at 6:08 pm

    Braz says:
    March 20, 2018 at 3:09 pm

    Wins are always a team accomplishment. But Brady leading a new team away from Belichick to one proves that there is merit to the argument that he is the greatest of all time, as he would have had to win it on his own, without the benefit of the Patriots system without Belichick, arguably the greatest head coach in history.

    People get greatness and success confused very easily. They are not that comparable.
    =======================================
    Understanding of course that if Brady did that he will have still not revolutionized the position in some manner similar to the other QBs you listed previously. It would still boil down to the same MSOAT conversation after you move the goal posts again. You’d only entertain the consideration of Brady due to the sheer absurdity of not doing so more than you actually wanting to. Despite that already being the case.
    ==================================================================================
    The fact Brady is closely associated to arguably the greatest coach in history is just one reason to be skeptical that he is greatest of all time. Among many.

    People 40 years from now will remember Brady only for his wins and rings and nothing else other than maybe Deflategate. Certainly not anything he did great on the field playing the position. I’m not saying he isn’t great (he is) but we are talking all-time great. That’s different.

  258. Saying that Success =/= Greatness really isn’t a stretch.

    Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Nick Foles all won a Super Bowl ring each.

    I’m sure we can all agree that those guys are NOT greater than Dan Marino even though Marino never won one.

    Too many people mistakenly call Brady GOAT because of the fact he is MSOAT. Success does not and never will imply greatness.

  259. Any quip about Peyton Manning is not relevant in any way to the fact that the 2011 and 2007 Giants, definitely the worst and arguably the second worst teams in NFL history respectively to win Super Bowls, both won their titles at the expense of Tom Brady and his team.

    And both times it was mostly Brady’s fault. In the case of 2007, Brady had a once in a generation chance to lead his team to immortality and he failed spectacularly on the biggest stage the sporting world has ever seen.

    If you’re calling this guy MSOAT (Most Successful of All Time) as a QB… no argument from me. But he ain’t no GOAT.

    Success =/= Greatness
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So the simple answer is you have absolutely no response whatsoever to how bad Manning played in the SBs. Even at Brady’s worst, he was on par with Manning’s best in SBs. By not addressing how bad Manning played in SBs there is serious lack of credibility. Can you explicitly say Manning is more GOAT then Brady? Simple yes or no question. I assume by all your misdirection that is the way you lean. So as a very straight forward question, how can Manning possibly be in that position over Brady having among the worst SB numbers in history? On the “biggest stage the sporting world has ever seen”, Manning played worse then Trent Dilfer. Instead of continuing to lose credibility, please explain that one for me.

  260. But my standards for the label of Greatest of All Time are very high, as it should be. GOAT’s do not fall on their faces to the worst and second worst Super Bowl winner of all time (Giants). GOAT’s are feared. Manning was feared. Nobody fears Brady nearly as much as his coach.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    The same Giants team that had 3 straight road wins, including beating Favre in GB in 2007 and Rodgers in GB in 2011? They were hardly the worst SB winner of all time and happen to hit their stride when it counted, but I can see that you are clearly grasping at straws so I’ll concede the Pats should have definitely won those games. The argument is over with the no one feared Brady comment. What’s clear as day is no one feared Manning when it came to playoff football. How could they, he was worse then Brady in all playoff games stats. And when it came to SBs, forget about it. He instilled as much fear in his opponent as Rex Grossman, which is why Manning is considered one of the worst SB QBs in history. His 77 rating and knack for throwing an INT more often then a TD must have really had defenses licking their chops.

  261. Too many people mistakenly call Brady GOAT because of the fact he is MSOAT. Success does not and never will imply greatness.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Be sure to tell the overwhelming majority of current and ex-players, coaches, executives, HOFers, and sports writers that. Good to know you have the inside knowledge about what it takes to be the GOAT and these others are simply mistaken. I mean, how could multiple HOF QBs know what it takes to be the best more so then Braz?

  262. @patsfan4lifesbchamps

    You’re agreeing with me then? Saying it “just wasn’t the right time” is bizarre when Belichick had several opportunities over the years to jettison Brady for a cheaper option. Plenty of “system QBs” have flowed in and out of the league in that time frame that were readily available. Belichick would have sought a new QB out if he thought he could get similar production at a discount and possible gain other assets by trading Brady. Belichick determined he couldn’t get that production (and intabligles) from anyone else so he kept him. That is incontrovertible and definitive proof Brady is not a “system QB”.

    If Brady couldn’t be replaced as determined by one of the greatest coaches and GMs in all of sports, how again is that proof he is a “system QB”? Also you dance around the simple fact Bledsoe, Cassel and Garrapolo had better years after leaving the Pats.

    And there is zero proof Garrapolo would have led the Pats to the SB last year. He doesn’t even get out of the Jags game which needed a great Brady comeback to pull out. Brady threw for 500yds and no picks and became the first QB in NFL history to do that and lose the game. What proof do you have that Garrapolo tops that performance? There is none, there was no precedent for it.

  263. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    People 40 years from now will remember Brady only for his wins and rings and nothing else other than maybe Deflategate.
    ——————————-

    That’s all any great quarterbacks are remembered for. In 40 years, no one is going to care that Manning briefly held all of these meaningless regular season records.

  264. That’s all any great quarterbacks are remembered for. In 40 years, no one is going to care that Manning briefly held all of these meaningless regular season records.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Couldn’t agree more. Until (and if) he is surpassed Brady will show up at the top of the list in almost every major QB statistic there is, both for regular season and post-season. 40 years from now, every QB will be chasing his individual records. Manning may hold onto a few, but Brady will hold the overwhelming majority, especially in the playoffs. Every SB will have stats and commentary comparing the QBs to Brady in terms of TD, yards, MVPs, etc. Manning won’t even be on the list of the top 5. To claim Manning will be more remembered in 40 years over Brady is pretzel logic. That is, unless ESPN puts out another dominance article where their criteria does not include games played outdoors……then maybe Manning will get the nod.

  265. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 11:29 am
    ============================
    Any quip about Peyton Manning is not relevant in any way to the fact that the 2011 and 2007 Giants, definitely the worst and arguably the second worst teams in NFL history respectively to win Super Bowls, both won their titles at the expense of Tom Brady and his team.

    And both times it was mostly Brady’s fault. In the case of 2007, Brady had a once in a generation chance to lead his team to immortality and he failed spectacularly on the biggest stage the sporting world has ever seen.

    If you’re calling this guy MSOAT (Most Successful of All Time) as a QB… no argument from me. But he ain’t no GOAT.

    Success =/= Greatness
    ============================
    Another perfect example of cherry picking. Nobody will be mistaking the ’06 Bears as a dominant team anytime soon I can assure you of that. Bears > Giant Maybe, but not by a ton. Not that Manning lit it up against that world dominant Bears defense. I might suggest getting a wholesale grip on Manning’s first SB performance. Or any of them for that matter.

    Someday you can explain how the Tyree\Mannigham catches were largely Brady’s fault. Even if we agreed (which we don’t) Brady stunk up the joint on those two SBs there’s another side to the argument that shows that wasn’t the case in some of his others.

  266. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 11:39 am

    Nobody is saying Brady isn’t great.

    But my standards for the label of Greatest of All Time are very high, as it should be. GOAT’s do not fall on their faces to the worst and second worst Super Bowl winner of all time (Giants). GOAT’s are feared. Manning was feared. Nobody fears Brady nearly as much as his coach.

    Again… Success =/= Greatness
    ========================================
    It’s funny you don’t think teams\players don’t fear Brady. There is a TON of evidence to suggest otherwise. That said, I have no inclination to try and persuade you otherwise. All I can do is point out the folly in thinking that.

    You can say whatever you want but there is no statistically significant argument that can made to suggest Manning should be considered GOAT and not include Brady in that same discussion. Full stop. All that means is your “standard” for GOAT fails to account for that and deserves all the criticism associated with not doing so. Despite how many times you keep insisting you are right and this is just more Pats homerism.

  267. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 12:06 pm

    Understanding of course that if Brady did that he will have still not revolutionized the position in some manner similar to the other QBs you listed previously. It would still boil down to the same MSOAT conversation after you move the goal posts again. You’d only entertain the consideration of Brady due to the sheer absurdity of not doing so more than you actually wanting to. Despite that already being the case.
    ==================================================================================
    The fact Brady is closely associated to arguably the greatest coach in history is just one reason to be skeptical that he is greatest of all time. Among many.

    People 40 years from now will remember Brady only for his wins and rings and nothing else other than maybe Deflategate. Certainly not anything he did great on the field playing the position. I’m not saying he isn’t great (he is) but we are talking all-time great. That’s different.
    ==================================================================================
    So how exactly does that reflect on on other greats like Montana\Walsh, Noll\Bradshaw, Shula\Marino, Landry\Staubach? Give me a break already. All of them are in that conversation and it’s absolutely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Heck you’ve already done so previously. Wouldn’t it be easier to just label this as another excuse to remove Brady from the conversation? It would sure be a lot more convenient not to mention a lot less time consuming.

    PManning is and will always be known for his post-season performances as well. Yet here we are entertaining the notion he should be in the GOAT conversation.

  268. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 12:16 pm
    Saying that Success =/= Greatness really isn’t a stretch.

    Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Nick Foles all won a Super Bowl ring each.

    I’m sure we can all agree that those guys are NOT greater than Dan Marino even though Marino never won one.

    Too many people mistakenly call Brady GOAT because of the fact he is MSOAT. Success does not and never will imply greatness.
    ==============================
    You realize that you can remove W\L record and you’d still be wrong. Right?

  269. Brady is not only not GOAT in my opinion, he isn’t greatest of his era, nor is he even the greatest QB that ever even played in his own division!

    Most successful? Absolutely. Not GOAT. Not going there.

  270. Manning hasn’t played a consistent and complete Super Bowl game from start to finish either. No matter how you slice it, Brady’s SB #s are on par or better than Manning’s. It’s fine if you want to hold that consistency against Brady so long as you reciprocate for the person supposedly better than him.

    It’s difficult to take you seriously when you claim a safety on the first offensive series of the game (in a 4 pt game) had more of an impact than an arguably dropped pass. While not entirely incorrect it reeks of desperation to prove a point that has little to no merit.

    ===================
    I thought Manning played an excellent game against the Bears. Well deserving MVP. Made crisp throws in subpar weather. That was also the #1 defense in the league in case you forgot.

    And yes Brady blew that other Super Bowl game with his boneheaded intentional grounding safety. The dropped pass was also partially on Brady. Brady had one decent drive the entire game but he stunk it up the rest of the game. I realize the Pat defense was not that good but it was their offense that lost that game. If the Giants were any good they would have blown those Pats right out of the building, that’s how bad Brady was in that game. A guy who is being touted as GOAT had no business losing to a team like those 2011 Giants.

  271. Braz says:

    March 22, 2018 at 3:46 pm

    Brady is not only not GOAT in my opinion, he isn’t greatest of his era, nor is he even the greatest QB that ever even played in his own division!

    Most successful? Absolutely. Not GOAT. Not going there.

    ===========================

    You are seriously confusing “Most Talented” with “Greatest”. Brady is not the most talented, neither was Montana. But they both showed up when the moment was the biggest. Can’t say the same for Manning or Marino. Intangibles matter, a lot. Often times more than talent. If they didn’t, the MVP trophy would be named after Jeff George.

  272. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 3:46 pm
    Brady is not only not GOAT in my opinion, he isn’t greatest of his era, nor is he even the greatest QB that ever even played in his own division!

    Most successful? Absolutely. Not GOAT. Not going there.
    ===========================
    You are entitled to your opinion. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. The line in the sand is when you can’t defend it and blame it on blind homerism or insecurities. You can either defend your opinion or you can’t. If you can’t you really shouldn’t be trying to blame it on other people.

  273. @Chill_Donahue,

    Garoppolo played against the same Jaguars and went 21/3 242 yards, 2 TD, INT passing and 1 rushing TD and the 49ers won. Not sure how you can say he doesn’t get out of the AFCC game. There is no doubt in my mind the Patriots at least make the SB with Garoppolo last season.

    @fireroger

    How is it Brady is 1-3 against Manning in AFCC games despite Brady supposedly being a better post season QB? If Manning is such a lousy post season performer yet Brady still loses to him what does that say about Brady?

    PS, I’m still waiting to hear what is it that Brady does for the Patriots that no other competent QB could do. Are there specific only Brady makes or perhaps he designs his own plays?

  274. Braz says:
    March 22, 2018 at 4:20 pm
    ===================
    I thought Manning played an excellent game against the Bears. Well deserving MVP. Made crisp throws in subpar weather. That was also the #1 defense in the league in case you forgot.

    And yes Brady blew that other Super Bowl game with his boneheaded intentional grounding safety. The dropped pass was also partially on Brady. Brady had one decent drive the entire game but he stunk it up the rest of the game. I realize the Pat defense was not that good but it was their offense that lost that game. If the Giants were any good they would have blown those Pats right out of the building, that’s how bad Brady was in that game. A guy who is being touted as GOAT had no business losing to a team like those 2011 Giants.
    ================

    Of course you think that. So let me spare you some time and we’ll skip to the excuse making section of the program. It wasn’t Manning that fumbled the snap that led directly to a Bears TD. It was the other all pro Jeff Saturday. Or maybe it was ABethea for giving up the 50+ pass the first play after the fumble? His interception was no big deal because it didn’t yield any points even though it could have very easily resulted in poor field position if not for the touchback. Did I leave anything out to make sure Manning has a consistent performance?

    If he was as consistent as you suggest Vinatieri wouldn’t have been responsible for more points than Manning (the very same thing being held against Brady I might point out).

  275. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 22, 2018 at 4:59 pm
    @fireroger

    How is it Brady is 1-3 against Manning in AFCC games despite Brady supposedly being a better post season QB? If Manning is such a lousy post season performer yet Brady still loses to him what does that say about Brady?

    PS, I’m still waiting to hear what is it that Brady does for the Patriots that no other competent QB could do. Are there specific only Brady makes or perhaps he designs his own plays?
    =======================
    I would urge caution wielding that 1-3 as it doesn’t paint the complete playoff rivalry between the two. It’s 3-2 in favor of Manning overall. Proving the rivalry was close. Much like their performances. Regardless of agreement on Manning\Brady being wonderful or disastrous in the post season it’s more than safe to find the common ground and say both performed pretty similarly to each other regardless of the W\L record. So again, how can one QB be included in the GOAT discussion while the other is not?

    I think we can safely say Brady can break down a defense and throw with accuracy in multiple areas better than most “competent” QBs. The deep ball is debatable at best.

  276. Brady is not only not GOAT in my opinion, he isn’t greatest of his era
    =====

    GOAT talk is a total waste, IMO.

    Its best to stick with era’s. What would Marino do in an era where DBs can’t maul receivers? Or even Favre for that matter.

    I do think Brady is the best of this era. I will give him that.

  277. aarons444 says:
    March 22, 2018 at 6:24 pm
    Brady is not only not GOAT in my opinion, he isn’t greatest of his era
    =====

    GOAT talk is a total waste, IMO.

    Its best to stick with era’s. What would Marino do in an era where DBs can’t maul receivers? Or even Favre for that matter.

    I do think Brady is the best of this era. I will give him that.
    ===================
    Seconding this.

  278. @patsfan4bs4life

    Again avoiding the question. Bottles threw 3 picks against 49ers, different game, not applicable, not disputable. And you are backing away from your own argument that Jimmy G beats the Eagles ( and throws for 500yds) .

    Why did Belichick keep Brady when so many other “ system QBs” where available at a cheaper price? Your argument dies on that vine every single tiime.

  279. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    March 22, 2018 at 4:59 pm
    @fireroger

    How is it Brady is 1-3 against Manning in AFCC games despite Brady supposedly being a better post season QB? If Manning is such a lousy post season performer yet Brady still loses to him what does that say about Brady?

    PS, I’m still waiting to hear what is it that Brady does for the Patriots that no other competent QB could do. Are there specific only Brady makes or perhaps he designs his own plays?
    =========.

    You switch Wayne or Harrison for Reche Caldwell ( WR1 in 06 with 2 big drops in AFC championship) and you got at least 2-2

  280. PS, I’m still waiting to hear what is it that Brady does for the Patriots that no other competent QB could do. Are there specific only Brady makes or perhaps he designs his own plays?
    =========.

    He is the most consistently great playoff QB of all time, shown by his #1 standing in all time playoff 4th qtr comebacks. No other QB comes close to his playoff accomplishments. If he woke up tomorrow with Montana’s or Manning’s career he would be inconsolable.

  281. I thought Manning played an excellent game against the Bears. Well deserving MVP. Made crisp throws in subpar weather. That was also the #1 defense in the league in case you forgot.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    It’s been fun the last few days, but now the trolling is just getting sad. Manning in his first SB against the Bears threw for 247 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT and a rating of 81.8. Brady in his “worst” SB where he played like “garbage” threw for 266 yards with 1 TD and 0 INT and a rating of 82.5. So the only thing to conclude from that is even at Brady’s worst, he performed better then Manning, who apparently was excellent.

  282. Brady may not be the GOAT but you would be a clueless wonder to leave him out of the conversation and keep Manning in. If you insist on doing so you deserve every bit of criticism you get. That’s all I’m pointing out.

  283. He is the most consistently great playoff QB of all time, shown by his #1 standing in all time playoff 4th qtr comebacks. No other QB comes close to his playoff accomplishments.
    =====

    Bart Starr won 5 Titles in 7 years and is the highest rated QB in post-season history.

    Otto Graham won an absurd number of Titles as well.

    .. too name a couple.

  284. aarons444 says:

    March 23, 2018 at 10:01 am

    He is the most consistently great playoff QB of all time, shown by his #1 standing in all time playoff 4th qtr comebacks. No other QB comes close to his playoff accomplishments.
    =====

    Bart Starr won 5 Titles in 7 years and is the highest rated QB in post-season history.

    Otto Graham won an absurd number of Titles as well.

    .. too name a couple

    ========================

    Sure, they were great, but much different era then. Fewer than half as many teams, no free agency, much less integration.

  285. blessedunliketherest says:
    March 22, 2018 at 10:02 pm

    I thought Manning played an excellent game against the Bears. Well deserving MVP. Made crisp throws in subpar weather. That was also the #1 defense in the league in case you forgot.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    It’s been fun the last few days, but now the trolling is just getting sad. Manning in his first SB against the Bears threw for 247 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT and a rating of 81.8. Brady in his “worst” SB where he played like “garbage” threw for 266 yards with 1 TD and 0 INT and a rating of 82.5. So the only thing to conclude from that is even at Brady’s worst, he performed better then Manning, who apparently was excellent.

    ———————————
    Eh, Peyton wasn’t horrible in that Super Bowl but I do think it was Dominic Rhodes who was the real MVP of that first Manning Super Bowl win. Peyton also sported a 77 passer rating in that playoff run. Not too good. 🙂

  286. I think Brady is GOAT and yes wins and rings are VERY meaningful when you’re talking about GOAT.

    I don’t think anyone will argue that it’s foolish to compare stats across eras, but you can certainly compare wins and rings. A ring by Brady, in the modern NFL era that favors passing, means that he led his team to a victory against another team who also benefits from those very same rules that favor passing.

    It’s really the only way you can compare these guys.

    Montana is 4-0 in Super Bowls and Brady is 5-3. 5 golds and 3 silvers >>>>> 4 golds anyday of the week.

    🙂

  287. As for this list… it was no accident that they ranked Manning high and Brady low.

    I think ESPN got what they wanted out of it and that’s what this was all about. Nothing more.

  288. The whole deal with Manning breaking records and winning a second title is questionable and tainted in my opinion with the HGH issue.

    We’ll probably never know the truth. Maybe it’s unfair but unfortunately I think an asterisk is warranted when you’re talking about everything Manning did after 2011, as for all we know it’s quite possible his career should have ended there.

  289. aarons444 says:

    March 23, 2018 at 11:54 am

    Sure, they were great, but much different era then.
    ======

    Arguably the best post-season QBs ever.

    Let me know when Brady 3-peats.

    =================================

    Much, much, much harder era to sustain winning now than in Bart Starr’s era, as I pointed out and proved.

  290. “Montana is 4-0 in Super Bowls”

    Brady is 5-3. That just means Montana can NOT even make it to the Super Bowl and 4 times less than Brady. In the Olympics, Montana could not even qualify to compete for the silver nor bronze medal. Brady would have 5 gold, 3 silver. Montana would have 4 gold. Brady is better. Simple.

  291. Brady is 5-3. That just means Montana can NOT even make it to the Super Bowl and 4 times less than Brady
    =====

    Because Montana’s competition acutally stopped him from getting there. Gibbs, Parcells/Belichick.. 7 Super Bowls in Montana’s prime.

    Who did Brady beat? The Colts? The Steelers twice? LOL.

  292. aarons444 says:
    March 23, 2018 at 12:54 pm
    Much, much, much harder era to sustain winning now than in Bart Starr’s era, as I pointed out and proved.
    =====
    Cute theory for sure.
    =================================

    Facts don’t need to be cute, they just march right on being true. Free agency, higher percentage of integration, many more franchises, player specialization, more coaches, trainers and medical staff, higher salaries that allow for year round training, higher popularity of the league nowadays that draws best athletes to the sport, more complex playbooks and scouting etc. All these and more definitively show that it is more work and more difficult to maintain success over time in today’s game compared to the likes of Bart Starr or Graham. Not even close.

  293. What are the parameters of this list?
    Pure athletic ability? Sure, Tom is way down the list, but so is Manning then… Lebron, Bonds, and numerous others would be higher.
    Skill within the sport, and then compared to skill of others within their sport? I suppose Tiger could be high on the list… but I don’t think he’s been more dominant in golf than others in football…
    The list on the whole is a mess. Doesn’t include any hockey players. Doesn’t explain how or why the list is the way it is… just kinda random names of stars from the past decade or so…

  294. Free agency, higher percentage of integration, many more franchises, player specialization, more coaches, trainers and medical staff, higher salaries that allow for year round training, higher popularity of the league nowadays that draws best athletes to the sport, more complex playbooks and scouting etc. All these and more definitively show that it is more work and more difficult to maintain success over time in today’s game compared to the likes of Bart Starr or Graham.
    =====

    I respect that opinion.

    I disagree in every imaginable way.

  295. aarons444 says:
    March 23, 2018 at 1:45 pm
    Because Montana’s competition acutally stopped him from getting there. Gibbs, Parcells/Belichick.. 7 Super Bowls in Montana’s prime.

    Who did Brady beat? The Colts? The Steelers twice? LOL.
    ====================
    Not that I necessarily disagree with you but it seems a little rigid to claim competition prevented Montana from doing more and not extending the same courtesy to the salary cap era\game changes as noteworthy considerations. I get the argument the small handful of teams in that era were bigger\better etc than the modern day teams but that argument fails to take into consideration that for every great team the other teams were woefully worse than most of the teams in the current salary cap era. Browns and Bucs aside.

  296. aarons444 says:
    March 23, 2018 at 2:22 pm

    Free agency, higher percentage of integration, many more franchises, player specialization, more coaches, trainers and medical staff, higher salaries that allow for year round training, higher popularity of the league nowadays that draws best athletes to the sport, more complex playbooks and scouting etc. All these and more definitively show that it is more work and more difficult to maintain success over time in today’s game compared to the likes of Bart Starr or Graham.
    =====

    I respect that opinion.

    I disagree in every imaginable way.
    =============================

    Thats fine, but without a rebuttal of my points your not really asserting that Im incorrect.

  297. If Brady benefited so much from playing in a weak division, how come the good teams in other, tougher divisions didn’t beat the Patriots more often in the playoffs? If the step up in competition was great, the Patriots should have consistently lost when they faced Manning’s Colts, Roethlisberger’s Steelers or Rivers’ Chargers in the postseason.

    On the topic of weak divisions, in Manning’s 4 seasons in Denver, the Broncos went 21-3 against the AFCW teams. Over the same time period, the Patriots went 18-6 against the supposedly weaker, less competitive AFCE.

  298. Look guys, you can fall on either side of the debate here, but I just want to ask one thing-can we please stop pretending that Brady has not any talented reciever throughout his career? Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Deion Branch, Rob Gronkowski, hell, even Aaron Hernandez when he wasn’t being a felon. If you think QBs of Brady’s and Manning’s caliber are built by their recieving corps, you’re not looking close enough. None of those receivers, while they may have been successful, would have been anywhere close to as well regarded as they are today if they hadn’t played with Brady or Manning. The only exception being, of course, Randy Moss, due to his time in Minnesota. Brady has had a large cast of nobodies throughout his career, as we all know, but he’s also had some talent. In any case, the Pats work differently than most other franchises-they don’t tend to put the best talent on the field, they would prefer to do it on the sideline. Usually that works out, but any successful team got to where it was with help from talented players.

  299. Funny, Brady and Bonds both graduated from the Same private High School in San Mateo, CA. Both Cheated, and both made the list. Only difference is Brady was caught, Bonds wasn’t. Either way, neither should be on the list if they cheated, which they did. Case closed.

  300. dynastypolice says:
    March 25, 2018 at 1:52 pm
    Funny, Brady and Bonds both graduated from the Same private High School in San Mateo, CA. Both Cheated, and both made the list. Only difference is Brady was caught, Bonds wasn’t. Either way, neither should be on the list if they cheated, which they did. Case closed.
    ===================
    And Manning’s wife used HGH for her pregnancy as well. 😉

  301. Thats fine, but without a rebuttal of my points your not really asserting that Im incorrect.
    ======

    You’re entitled to whatever opinion you like.

    We’ve had this conversation in the past.

    Either you don’t care to remember, or you just want to argue.

    Either way, carry on.

  302. dynastypolice says:

    March 25, 2018 at 1:52 pm

    Funny, Brady and Bonds both graduated from the Same private High School in San Mateo, CA. Both Cheated, and both made the list. Only difference is Brady was caught, Bonds wasn’t. Either way, neither should be on the list if they cheated, which they did. Case closed.

    =========================

    “Only difference” was that physics explained one of those away, definitively.

  303. @Chil_donahue

    Belichick knows just the right time to part ways with a player. The fact that he didn’t want to part ways with Brady until last year means the last 16 years weren’t the right time. Does that answer your question?

    Regarding the Jaguars, yes Bortles threw picks against 49ers but Garoppolo and Brady went against the same Jaguars defense, and they both had success against it. If Garoppolo puts up the same performance in AFCC game, the Patriots advance. As far the SB, I would take less total passing yards, no game ending fumble, better 1st half performance with Garoppolo over Brady’s performance if we end up with the win.

  304. aarons444 says:

    March 26, 2018 at 10:10 am

    Thats fine, but without a rebuttal of my points your not really asserting that Im incorrect.
    ======

    You’re entitled to whatever opinion you like.

    We’ve had this conversation in the past.

    Either you don’t care to remember, or you just want to argue.

    Either way, carry on.

    =======================

    Agreed, and you just made my point, again.

  305. @patsfan4lifesbchamps

    You are just kinda repeating the same thing without answering anything. Belichick doesn’t just “get rid of players at the right time” when their careers are tapering off, he does it when they are getting too pricey. If Brady was a system QB, Belichick would’ve have kept Cassel or Jimmy G or he would have acquired Rex Grosmman or Jake Delhomne of some other average QB and kept winning. But he didn’t and you can’t figure out why.

    And Jimmy G had a crummy td-int ratio so saying he wouldn’t have turned the ball over is without proof. And careful touting Jimmy G too much, he gravely hurts your point that a magical Pats QB system even exists. He, Bledsoe and Cassel all had better years AFTER leaving Pats. Further indisputable proof Brady is no “system” QB.

  306. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 26, 2018 at 10:23 am

    dynastypolice says:

    March 25, 2018 at 1:52 pm

    Funny, Brady and Bonds both graduated from the Same private High School in San Mateo, CA. Both Cheated, and both made the list. Only difference is Brady was caught, Bonds wasn’t. Either way, neither should be on the list if they cheated, which they did. Case closed.

    =========================

    “Only difference” was that physics explained one of those away, definitively.

    =========================================================
    Instead of spinning themselves dizzy about this Pat fan should just save themselves a lot of grief and accept what the text messages clearly suggest – that Brady indeed got the Deflator and his buddy to set his ball PSI at his preference, which is 12.5 PSI. And very likely it happened post inspection.

    It’s “jaywalking” at best. It really isn’t a big deal and lots of quarterbacks do this. And nobody honestly believes this is cheating, only those trying to get a rise out of Pat fan (and as usual, getting it)

    If they messed with the other teams footballs then that’s a very different story. But I don’t believe they did that and that’s a good thing. No fan of this league wants a cheater associated to a Super Bowl and to date I don’t think we’ve seen one.

  307. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 26, 2018 at 9:10 pm

    @patsfan4lifesbchamps

    You are just kinda repeating the same thing without answering anything. Belichick doesn’t just “get rid of players at the right time” when their careers are tapering off, he does it when they are getting too pricey. If Brady was a system QB, Belichick would’ve have kept Cassel or Jimmy G or he would have acquired Rex Grosmman or Jake Delhomne of some other average QB and kept winning. But he didn’t and you can’t figure out why.

    And Jimmy G had a crummy td-int ratio so saying he wouldn’t have turned the ball over is without proof. And careful touting Jimmy G too much, he gravely hurts your point that a magical Pats QB system even exists. He, Bledsoe and Cassel all had better years AFTER leaving Pats. Further indisputable proof Brady is no “system” QB.

    =====================
    Here’s something that will save Pat fan a lot of typing time and the rest of us a lot of scrolling time in these comments.

    Nobody really believes Tom Brady is a system QB.

    Carry on.

  308. Braz

    patsfan4lifesbchamps has been saying it for like 2-3years while pretending to be a Pats fan. And my explanations are also for those who think Brady is solely (or even 50%) a creation of Belichick.

  309. Braz says:

    Instead of spinning themselves dizzy about this Pat fan should just save themselves a lot of grief and accept what the text messages clearly suggest – that Brady indeed got the Deflator and his buddy to set his ball PSI at his preference, which is 12.5 PSI. And very likely it happened post inspection.

    It’s “jaywalking” at best. It really isn’t a big deal and lots of quarterbacks do this. And nobody honestly believes this is cheating, only those trying to get a rise out of Pat fan (and as usual, getting it)

    If they messed with the other teams footballs then that’s a very different story. But I don’t believe they did that and that’s a good thing. No fan of this league wants a cheater associated to a Super Bowl and to date I don’t think we’ve seen one.

    ==========================

    There actually aren’t any text messages that say anything about deflating a football after ref inspection. And if, as you say, it did happen after ref inspection, how does that help Brady? None of the footballs measured at the same PSI. They were all different, which makes it harder for the QB. It hinders Brady’s ability to estimate how much force to use when throwing the ball when each ball is different. The whole thing makes no sense. That and the entire scientific community not paid by the NFL disagreed with Wells and Exponent.

    And its interesting to bring up teams messing with other teams’ footballs. The Colts admitted to messing with the Pats footballs by sticking a needle gauge in one, thus breaking the air seal and changing the PSI. Highly illegal according to the NFL. And the Giants did it to the Steelers in 2016. Not a peep from the NFL. I don’t care but it just shows how bad they are at investigations and interpreting their own rules.

  310. aarons444 says:

    March 27, 2018 at 12:48 pm

    No rebuttal to my multiple points given.
    =====

    Many, here and in all the sections you hijack.

    You just don’t want to here them.

    ==========

    Not really, you say something, I say something, and then you say I disagree and offer nothing further while I keep scoring points. Its not a great strategy on your point. It would be like using a 1950’s scouting or nutritional approaches to win a game in today’s NFL. Which is also one of my points.

  311. Chill_Donahue says:
    March 27, 2018 at 12:29 pm

    Braz

    patsfan4lifesbchamps has been saying it for like 2-3years while pretending to be a Pats fan. And my explanations are also for those who think Brady is solely (or even 50%) a creation of Belichick.
    =====================================
    That’s my point. Anyone who says this is not serious and they’re not going to read your reply to the contrary, they’re just trying to get you guys riled up. And that’s not hard to do.

    Just seems kind of pointless to spend all that time “defending” the guy.

  312. Not really, you say something, I say something, and then you say I disagree and offer nothing further while I keep scoring points. Its not a great strategy on your point.
    =====

    Your argument was neither convincing or even thought provoking.

  313. There actually aren’t any text messages that say anything about deflating a football after ref inspection. And if, as you say, it did happen after ref inspection, how does that help Brady? None of the footballs measured at the same PSI. They were all different, which makes it harder for the QB. It hinders Brady’s ability to estimate how much force to use when throwing the ball when each ball is different. The whole thing makes no sense. That and the entire scientific community not paid by the NFL disagreed with Wells and Exponent.

    And its interesting to bring up teams messing with other teams’ footballs. The Colts admitted to messing with the Pats footballs by sticking a needle gauge in one, thus breaking the air seal and changing the PSI. Highly illegal according to the NFL. And the Giants did it to the Steelers in 2016. Not a peep from the NFL. I don’t care but it just shows how bad they are at investigations and interpreting their own rules.

    =================================
    Wells concluded it was post inspection. The texts don’t say it outright but there was references to Brady being unhappy with the inflation of footballs after inspection, and after all of that how stressful it was to “get them (the balls PSI setting) done”, McNally disappearing into the locked bathroom with the game balls, and the Deflator going to ESPN and all that. Along with all the evidence it’s not that much of a stretch to believe that Wells was probably correct in his assessment.

    PSI does matter. It affects many things, grip, force, among them. If Brady went out of his way to order these guys to set the football to 12.5 PSI then obviously he felt that that reading is beneficial for him otherwise he wouldn’t have cared as much as the text messages implied he did.

    But again, it’s not a big deal to me. Worthy of a small fine but that’s about it.

  314. Sorry Braz, Wells made no such declaration. He only said “more probably than not” which is extremely important legal distinction because it is the base level of suspicion Goodell needed for it to help him later in court. It was by no means a concrete conclusion. And the science was flawed and Wells and Exponent were shown to have massive conflicts of interest. The CBA is what saved Goodell.

    And if PSI does matter, (although you previously said it didn’t), then it also makes zero sense as to why would Brady want footballs at all different PSI’s? None of them were measured at the same amount. Brady was at a disadbantage in that regard. Maybe that’s why his 2nd half was so much better?

    And again, zero communications said anything about deflating balls after inspection, sorry. It is a massive stretch to think the laws of physics somehow were suspended for a few hours a few years ago in Foxboro. And Goodell promised league transparency, and demanded PSI logs be kept, yet we haven’t seen them. After a $20mil debacle with several NFL false leaks to the press, why wouldn’t NFL release the PSI logs if it helped their case?

  315. aarons444 says:

    March 27, 2018 at 2:11 pm

    Not really, you say something, I say something, and then you say I disagree and offer nothing further while I keep scoring points. Its not a great strategy on your point.
    =====

    Your argument was neither convincing or even thought provoking.
    ====================================

    More points for me, another non-rebuttal. How is it again that it was somehow more work and harder to sustain winning “back in the day” without teams of specialists and coaches, bigger and more complex playbooks, free agency, larger league exposure, higher salaries, few teams etc.?

  316. If Brady went out of his way to order these guys to set the football to 12.5 PSI then obviously he felt that that reading is beneficial for him otherwise he wouldn’t have cared as much as the text messages implied he did.

    Except…he didn’t do those things. Or at the very least, there is no direct evidence to suggest he did. Just all sorts of wishful thinking and conjecture by million-dollar investigators encouraged by the league to come down on Brady.

    Brady might be the hardest working QB in NFL history, the most prepared, deliberate, self-challenging guy at the most important position in this sport. And yet you’re implying that he told two part-time ballboys, whose name he didn’t even know, to illegally deflate footballs before games. You’re implying that he would be so unbelievably careless and stupid with his name, his reputation, and legacy, to do such a thing. “HEY JIM AND BOBBY, LET SOME AIR OUT. I’LL GIVE YOU SOME SHOES.”

    So painfully stupid. The very premise. And yet here we are.

  317. And if PSI does matter, (although you previously said it didn’t), then it also makes zero sense as to why would Brady want footballs at all different PSI’s? None of them were measured at the same amount. Brady was at a disadbantage in that regard. Maybe that’s why his 2nd half was so much better?

    And again, zero communications said anything about deflating balls after inspection, sorry. It is a massive stretch to think the laws of physics somehow were suspended for a few hours a few years ago in Foxboro. And Goodell promised league transparency, and demanded PSI logs be kept, yet we haven’t seen them. After a $20mil debacle with several NFL false leaks to the press, why wouldn’t NFL release the PSI logs if it helped their case?
    ===========================

    Troy Vincent was interviewed by Dan Patrick last week and one of the topics Patrick asked him about the league changing the rules on football prep and letting QBs prepare footballs any way they want. Vincent was open to this change, said it had been discussed at NFL HQ and was something fans want to see.

    In 2015, .2 PSI of air was a massive competitive advantage, threatened the legitimacy of the league and the very foundations of sportsmanship. In 2018, the same people who told us this was vitally important to the league are saying it’s no big deal and they might change it. If they hadn’t suspended Brady and taken away 1st and 4th round picks, it might actually be funny.

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to leave a comment. Not a member? Register now!