Saints are Super Bowl champs, Brees MVP

The Saints went 13-3 via a formula of high-octane, pass-heavy offense and creating turnovers in critical situations.

They won Super Bowl XLIV in the same fashion.
After a slow start, quarterback Drew Brees was near perfect.  He completed 32-of-39 passes for 288 yards, two touchdowns, and no interceptions and was named M.V.P. of the game.
Pierre Thomas and Jeremy Shockey scored New Orleans’ offensive touchdowns.  Cornerback Tracy Porter had the game-clinching pick six.
There was some silver lining for Colts tight end Dallas Clark.  He is now the postseason record holder for catches (64) and yards (847) by a tight end.
The Colts did not score a single point after their first possession of the third quarter.  Peyton Manning had 333 passing yards and completed 31-of-45 throws, but threw the interception and consistently struggled in the red zone.
At least he’s got a big raise to look forward to.

246 responses to “Saints are Super Bowl champs, Brees MVP

  1. I’m happy for the Saints. Not because they deserved it because of Katrina (Puhleeze) but because the franchise was down for so long and they really worked hard to get out of the Aints long shadow. Congrats to the Saints.
    BTW, this is the second straight Super Bowl that Manning has had an interception returned for a TD.
    MVC(oach)– Greg Williams.
    P.S. – This is from a fan of the Cowboys.

  2. I’m eager to hear how people will manage to show the Saints no respect after that win.

  3. And still the Dallas Cowboys beat them this year. Still, congrats to the champeens of the whole enchilada. For another year.

  4. Hahahahaha… Captain Clutch coming up small as ever when it mattered most. And people say he should be in the conversation of the greatest QB of all time. Hahahahahaha what a joke!

  5. saints=1998 falcons
    WHO DAT get use to it WHO DAT!!!!!!!

  6. I really hope this shuts up all the “Peyton Manning is the greatest” lovers out there………..he proved that he is a king choke artist tonight……..and it cannot be disputed………Brees showed him what a TRUE CLUTCH QB plays like!

  7. Hey Hap, I thought you were a prognosticator?
    What happened, you said the Colts would win?
    Good call.
    BTW: Montana never threw a pick 6 to lose the superbowl.

  8. Um….Brady 3, Peyton 1.
    I love it. Indy’s loss prove’s one thing: that the Colt’s are a one trick poney, Goober threw a horrible pick-6 ducky when it was on the line…and this loss will sting for months, maybe years to come.
    Congrats, Saints.
    You kicked are a$$ this year.
    Saints are world champs!!!
    And Peyton the goober walked off the field a superbowl loser…uh…hahahahahhaha!
    Pats Fan feeling redemption for 4th and 2 ~

  9. bian8…………if you are out there, all I have to say is………………..CCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!……………….LMFAO………..Ha Ha Ha Ha

  10. now………the same people that wrote for the past two weeks how GREAT Manning is will start down a different path……..on how flawed he is……….LMAO.

  11. Indy didn’t score after halftime? Was it the power of positive thinking that took their score from 10 to 17 then?
    Great win for the Saints and that city…

  12. Lesson from tonight: Pussies are well pussies and that is usually why they get their asses kicked in the end.

  13. New Orleans= 2003 Bucs
    1 and done. A flash in the pan. One hit wonder.
    Now New Orleans(Port Au Prince) will riot and be burning down by midnight.

  14. at least the dumbass Colts redneck fans can shut the hell up about an undefeated season……it shows they weren’t worthy of it to begin with!

  15. Wow …. did Peyton Manning look mediocre or what in the fourth quarter? I expected him to laugh in the face of a 14 point deficit with 3 mins left.
    Dude looked very bad. Can’t wait to hear who he blames for that pick.

  16. Indy scored a td in their first possession of the 2nd half, in response to the statement that they were shut out in the 2nd half.

  17. No fans deserved it more than Saints fans.
    Happy the Saints won.
    Congrats guys, us Pats fans would love to see ya in SB 45 next year.
    You kicked our asses and we need some payback.

  18. America’s new team, The Saints! Oh how the mighty Cowboys have fallen over the years. To think that Saints would now have that title is unbelievable.

  19. At least Reggie Bush didn’t do much. My girlfriend watches Keeping Up With the Kardashians, and the next season of that show will be hell for me.

  20. Hey Matt H.
    How have the Pats been doing? What does their future look like? How did they do in the playoffs this year?
    Here are the answers shitty. shitty. shitty.
    I’m not a colts fan so bash them all you want, just don’t run your mouth about how great the Pathetics are.

  21. Now the Haitian refuges can wear Indianapolis Colt Superbowl Champion t-shirts.
    Haiti will become Colts Country with millions wearing those AFC Champs shirts.

  22. This proves 2 things…. Florio and Tony Dungy are equal. Neither one of them seems to know how to predict football games. Congrats Saints, Drew Brees is the man.

  23. Congratulations to all Saints fans. Your team’s journey was quite inspiring.
    Detroit and Cleveland

  24. So the goal is get to the NFC Championshop and cheat your ass off to get to the big game… Colts an suck my balls YOU were too content about winning!!!!

  25. Did anyone else notice Peyton fleeing the field after the game and not appearing to even congratulate any Saints?????

  26. # ahajha says: February 7, 2010 10:00 PM
    Matt H. :
    Your right, they dont cheat to win
    Congratulations Saints!
    No they just change the rules to handicap everyone but themselves. Enjoy your SB loss douchebag.

  27. Payton beats peyton. Colts choke. I love the Saints for playing the whole game and sticking it to the WELL rested Colts. The Colts are cheaters.
    Go ahead and cheat the paying ticket holders while you rest your starters next year. Suck wind Indy…… losers…. Losers.

  28. ……..this game also showed how over-rated the Colts coach is………..anyone that sends in Stover for a 51 yard kick is a total moron!!!!!!!!!!!!

  29. Turd………are you this stupid?…….the Pats have won CONSISTENTLY………something the Colts cannot do……….that is the point……….

  30. # The Real Shuxion says: February 7, 2010 10:00 PM
    Lesson from tonight: Pussies are well pussies and that is usually why they get their asses kicked in the end.

  31. Burn in Hell, Indy! May the pain of this day haunt you for years to come.
    And how dare you scamper out during the team intros to “Won’t Get Fooled Again.” That belongs to the Patriots.
    Can’t come up with your own name or your own colors. And then have to grab what some other teams uses to celebrate victories. Pinball Wizard would have been a better choice.
    This could have only been sweeter if you had waltzed into this game 18-0. Douche bags.

  32. The only new the Saints are is the new St Louis Rams. Better enjoy it while it lasts you have about 4 years left.

  33. bc62…….that is because Manning is the biggest jerk and cry-baby in football………..i am sure he is thinking now of reasons to tell his wife why he sucked!

  34. Hey everyone i don’t know if you heard but the Saints won the super bowl. So for all of you doubters F### you and your teams. lovin it.

  35. I see that winning the Super Bowl has brought out the best in Saints fans. Rather than celebrating the victory, they’re too busy telling everybody to F off. Stay classy New Orleans, and try not to let the fires spread out of city limits.

  36. Hey .VoxVeritas, looks like Fujita proved your dumb ass wrong. You should stop commenting altogether on this site. Fujita 1 cowgurls 0. Dallass will be watching from their couches as long as jerry keeps running things you little retards.

  37. Colts have all the stats, except the one that matters.
    Great game. Great job of coaching by the Saints. Gutsy calls at the end of the first half and to start the 2nd half with on side kick.
    Pretty amazing that the Colts scored no points in second half.
    Manning wasn’t Manning in the 2 minute drill that’s for sure. Great D.

  38. Barkingshins says:
    February 6, 2010 10:42 AM
    Agree 100%. I think your score prediction is a bit generous to the Saints though. The Vikings handed N.O. this Superbowl appearance with a huge bow on it. If the Saints play anything like they did against MN, the Colts are going to completely dismantle them. This will be a return to the days of boring, blow-out Superbowls. Too bad… a Favre v. Manning SB would have been fun.
    FootballOnly says:
    February 6, 2010 10:50 AM
    One of the rare times i have agreed with Florio……and gotta luv that “saints were grossly outplayed by the vikings” and his comment about the current OT rules. This would’ve been a great SB matchup with Colts/Vikings and it’s no wonder everyone except Saints fans think the same
    vinceV says:
    February 6, 2010 10:36 AM
    Saints = 1998 Atlanta Falcons
    Nice call guys!
    and just in case you were wondering, here is my post from the same string:
    realitypolice says:
    A little dangerous basing your entire analysis of a team on one game. But if you insist, how about we do it with a head’s up opponent- who had an easier time beating the Pats this year? The Colts beat the Pats on a bonehead call by Bellichick, whereas the Saints blew the Pats out of the building.
    I don’t know if the Saints will win, but I don’t see them getting blown out.

  39. Conrgrats Saints! That onside kick call was gutsy and turned the momentum of this game and they never looked back. Great coaching tonight by NO.
    Lets hope this quiets the Manning is best ever talk. He has a long, long way to go to get that status. He is not as clutch as the “best ever” should be. Great QB, but not the best. Looks like this era’s best QB still goes to Brady as of right now.

  40. Turd Furguson says:
    February 7, 2010 10:06 PM
    Hey Matt H.
    How have the Pats been doing? What does their future look like? How did they do in the playoffs this year?
    Here are the answers shitty. shitty. shitty.
    I’m not a colts fan so bash them all you want, just don’t run your mouth about how great the Pathetics are.
    I think as long as they have Brady and BB
    there future is ok.
    Nice try dumbass!!

  41. Hmmmm. ESPN knew this already….like, two days ago. Old news now. Who cares?
    Seriously, congrats to all the Saints fans. Could not be happier for you all now – enjoy it!

  42. # golongboyee says: February 7, 2010 10:08 PM
    Manning is a SYSTEM QB…………when are people going to realize this……
    Do you even know what the hell a system qb is?

  43. CONGRATS SAINTS!!! Has any team had so many other fans soooo happy to see them win the SB??? It was great to see!!!
    And would all you Patriots fans STFU! It ain’t about you or your washed up team…once again beanheads show why as fans they are even more obnoxious than Philly or NY fans!!! How many decades will we have to hear about old Tom Brady & the “genius hoodie”… PUH-LEEZ! i.e., how logn will you live in the past, because the present is sooo painful!!!

  44. golongboyee – you are dead on…anyone in Bmore could tell you Stover is no good beyond maybe 46 at most!!!

  45. The Real Shuxion says: February 7, 2010 10:08 PM
    My Ravens lost before the SB… enjoy not knowing how to read douchebag

  46. Freeney was sucking wind at the end of the game. It looks like taking off all that time actually got him a little out of game shape. I know he got hurt in playoffs, but those weeks off look like they had a affect on his conditioning.

  47. Majik Bullet says: February 7, 2010 10:12 PM
    Ah, the first “stay classy” comment of the night.
    No NFL team has classy fans you idiot, this is football!

  48. Now who will the media gush over? Peyton and Brady are like any other QB when pressured. Congrats Saints!

  49. WashingtonRedstorms, I won’t mince words with you. You are a racist/bigot. Your comments go well beyond football jousting. You have serious problems with “places like” Haiti and New Orleans. You don’t use your full name nor do you have the courage to speak you mind unless you hide behind anonymity. Let me amend that – you are a coward racist!!!
    On to football…
    So the Saints can’t win with the 26th ranked Def. Not only did they but that Def carried them for both Championship games.
    4 HOF QB’s go down in 1 season – 3 in a row… (Brady, Warner, Favre, and Manning).
    Also, I need to correct my earlier statement about Manning being he best in the game. After tonight that belongs to Drew Brees.

  50. … and the Vikings had this team beat but for the officials.
    Some very strange calls / non-calls gain today.
    The Colts got hosed on holding penalties that were not called.

  51. MSWRavens……….i would say 43 and in he is automatic………but 51?, especially in a close game, you punt!

  52. Don’t worry Majik Bullet the city is built below sea level so there is a pretty good chance its going to get flooded at any moment. Fire shouldn’t be a big issue. Oh and 8MAN there is no way these douche bags coming in to this game undefeated would have ever been better than when those douche bags from new england choked in the super bowl and got beat by a guy named Eli.
    Tom Brady is washed up.

  53. myocum311, yes i do dipshit……..and if you have an hour or two, I would be glad to give you an education.

  54. You gotta give it up for Drew. So, is Dungy absolutely shocked? The Saints even left points on the field .Out-coached and out -quarterbacked!

  55. Majik Bullet can suck on my balls. That queer bastard is just mad cuz we stomped the queens ass. SKOAL SAINTS!!!!

  56. WashingtonRedstorms, I won’t mince words with you. You are a racist/bigot. Your comments go well beyond football jousting. You have serious problems with “places like” Haiti and New Orleans. You don’t use your full name nor do you have the courage to speak you mind unless you hide behind anonymity. Let me amend that – you are a coward racist!!!
    Yes keep playing the race card. BTW the race card died in 2009.
    Please go find your Master Johnnie Cochran
    Keep trying. Especially when I am Hispanic.
    The Cowboys are still Americas team and will show New Orleans who is boss next year.

  57. You would have thought that Haiti suffered enough recently, without being stuck with all that Colts SB44 winners merchandise

  58. The football gods gave the Colts what they deserved. Lay down again next season! See where it gets you…Colts are a piece of shit for doing that and they got what they deserved…World Chumps.
    Go Saints….World Champs!

  59. i think this puts to rest those douchebags at ESPN, [colin cowTURD, tom jackASS, mike GAGburg, to name a few], the world wide leader in HYPE, who kept telling us that Manning is the G.O.A.T.,

  60. MSWRavens says:
    February 7, 2010 10:18 PM
    CONGRATS SAINTS!!! Has any team had so many other fans soooo happy to see them win the SB??? It was great to see!!!
    And would all you Patriots fans STFU! It ain’t about you or your washed up team…once again beanheads show why as fans they are even more obnoxious than Philly or NY fans!!! How many decades will we have to hear about old Tom Brady & the “genius hoodie”… PUH-LEEZ! i.e., how logn will you live in the past, because the present is sooo painful!!!
    STFU, when the pats lost the SB colts fans and all the haters like you
    did the same thing.
    Deal with it.

  61. Congrats Saints and Saints fans! A great win for a great city!! For all of you posters ripping on NO, have you ever been there? New Orleans is a beautiful, history-filled, one-of-a-kind city. The music, the food and the camaraderie – can’t beat it!

  62. And they just keep coming. Their team just won the World Championship, and instead of celebrating, the fans are telling me to blow a dog. Thank you for proving my point, and remember, if you accidentally catch fire from the inevitable riots, just go down any alley or side street, and jump in a pool of urine to extinguish the flames.

  63. What couldve been PERVY, what couldve been. Poor Poor Vikings faithful. Least the ego freak is coming back. Congrats to the World Champion Saints! They earned it!

  64. In the spirit of true fanship, GREAT GAME! This one had it all folks. No bad calls to speak of , gutsy calls by a gutsy coach and for sure the best team won! Two really good teams this year and a real good show by all. Sorry about all the money you gamblers lost on the Colts. Peyton is sorry he lost but I am sure the whole Manning family are proud for New Orleans and the job the Saints have done this year. Drew and Peyton are both class acts and I could not really pick a favorite this year to root for. Whoo hoo! Great game! OK, on to the draft. I can hardly wait !

  65. Are half the people on this thread drunk? We just watched one of the better Super Bowls from an entertainment standpoint. The underdog deserved to win and won, which most fans appreciate. Brees seems to be a good guy and really stepped up his play after the first quarter and had one of the best games a QB has played in the Super Bowl in awhile. Why all the hate? Relax.

  66. So you understand that every quarterback plays in a system? So how can you say that jamarcus russel isn’t a system quarterback? You say that like it proves Peyton Manning is simply good because of who he is surrounded by and the type of office he runs. If Manning plays for another 5 years at the rate he is at he will break nearly every passing record. He has 4 NFL MVP’s, 10 Pro Bowls, Was drafted 1 in 1998 From Tennessee, which apparently runs the same system as the colts? I don’t think so. So this system that makes him so good made him so good in college too?
    So I basically say to you. Are you retarded?
    Grow up and stop acting like a football guru. You talk like you are so awesome because you are the only person who knows that peyton manning is a system quarterback. Its actually funny because you are the ONLY PERSON on the planet who believes that, dipshit.
    And I’m a Vikings fan. So don’t start talkin about how bad the colts suck and how brees is the best quarterback alive. Isn’t brees a system quarterback too?

  67. Big BrEasy says:
    February 7, 2010 10:31 PM
    Majik Bullet can suck on my balls. That queer bastard is just mad cuz we stomped the queens ass. SKOAL SAINTS!!!!
    Dude,wake up.The world knows Vikings had 5 turnovers and u won by 3 with a million penalties. Vikings were the best NFL team this year inbred.

  68. First off, the Saints definitely deserved the win. They played the better game, had the better game plan, and simply played a more gutsy game. No question they were the better team on the field today.
    But the Colts absolutely disgusted me. And I don’t mean Manning, who, much like Favre in the conf. championship round, was drowned by horrible play and questionable (i.e., timid) coaching.
    I still can’t believe the end of the first half–1:55 on the clock and they have Manning HAND OFF THREE TIMES? You have the best QB in the NFL, lots of time, and you just shut the Saints down on the goal line. Time to put the game away!
    But the gutless Colts coaches killed their SB the same way they killed their perfect regular season–by taking the ball out of Manning’s hands and “playing it safe”.
    Along with a complete and utter failure to make tackles, the Colts lost today because of gutless, weak, timid coaching. They need to change their philosophy quick, or Manning’s Colts are headed straight for being remembered like Jim Kelly’s Bills: a great team that couldn’t get it done. (I know they’ve won one SB, but there’s little excuse for them to not have 3 by now.)
    Congrats to the Saints. It was the most boring, pedestrian Super Bowl in my memory, but they deserve the win.

  69. VegasChris – this comment is hilarious considering the Colts are the kings of the “holding” no calls…….

  70. WashingtonRedstorm: I gotta say you are a piece of work. I bet your mother is proud of you, cause we aren’t. Would you happen to be D.C resident. If so hey pot don’t call this kettel black!!! Any murders is D.C today??? Just wondering.

  71. I have never talked trash on here but did a little bit ago. WOW THAT FELT GOOD. Congrats to the Colts, good game. Who dat to the nation. Congrats guys.

  72. Overall, I’d say this was the least satisfying Super Bowl in my memory. Boring, machine-like play for most of the game, very little personality shown by either team, the difference in the game was more about plays not made than plays made, the commercials were uniformly terrible, the Who were pretty bad (and I like the Who), and the season as a whole was a pretty unmemorable mess.
    All in all, a bad year for the league capped in unsatisfying fashion. Congrats to the Saints, but they’ve won in a season which will be seen by history as very forgettable.

  73. Pervy Harvin:
    “Dude,wake up.The world knows Vikings had 5 turnovers and u won by 3 with a million penalties. Vikings were the best NFL team this year inbred.”
    And the Patriots were the best team in 07-08 for almost the entire year, but they couldn’t win when it mattered. At the end of the day, it’s who has the trophy. The Saints do this year, so they are the best team in the league. No matter how a team does in the regular season, whoever holds the trophy gets the title of best in the league. Vikings=/= best in the league because they LOST.
    *I’m a Pats fan*

  74. This was a great game between two very good offenses. In my opinion, this game was won by Sean Payton. The onside kick to start the half was ballsy and brilliant. That call by the coach was a great a play as anything that happened on the field by a player.
    New Orleans was fortunate to be the one to offer Payton his head coaching job. Timing was everything, and they got a great coach in him.
    Congrats, Saints Fans. Be proud of your team. Celebrate. New season begins right now.
    Here’s to kickoff, 2010.

  75. MSWRavens says:
    February 7, 2010 10:45 PM
    grape-ape…you make my point. The present hurts soooo bad. Get relevant asswipe!
    you made no point, just like all your
    posts all season.
    Get over it.

  76. Washingtonredstorm no need to play the race card as your comments over the last couple of weeks have proven it – so I say again you my friend are racist, probably pretty dumb too. Does being Hispanic preclude you from being racist (LOL!!!)? But hey don’t worry, I’ll call my family who still live in New Orleans and ask that they think of you when they burn the city down – idiot!!!
    Just so you know, your posts speak volumes. Though I must say I am not terribly convinced that you are really Hispanic.

  77. redsquare……
    “I still can’t believe the end of the first half–1:55 on the clock and they have Manning HAND OFF THREE TIMES?”………gee, how do you know Manning didn’t call this…..everyone raves about his play-calling……
    “I know they’ve won one SB, but there’s little excuse for them to not have 3 by now”….you are correct here……..a truly GREAT QB would have won more.

  78. Congrats to the Saints, but the game was disappointing. The Saints weren’t the best team this year, but they won the big one. Can’t believe Manning threw that pick.

  79. (I know they’ve won one SB, but there’s little excuse for them to not have 3 by now.)
    redsquare, you know why they havent won 3 by now…

  80. “Its actually funny because you are the ONLY PERSON on the planet who believes that, dipshit.”
    Sorry moron…..I am NOT the only one that thinks that……….and I would gladly show you any day of the week……..Loser!
    You sound like the other morons in here that think that Manning is great bcasue he calls his own plays and calls them at the line……….hate to break the news to you you but most QBs in the 70s and early 80s did this!!!!!!!!!!!!

  81. “Was drafted 1 in 1998 From Tennessee, which apparently runs the same system as the colts? I don’t think so. So this system that makes him so good made him so good in college too? ”
    This quote islaughable……….first of all, many an average QB has had success in big-time college programs……..also, no, he didn’t call his own plays in college.
    ……and yes, he was a choker at TN as well, could never beat Florida nor win a championship. But they did without him!!!!

  82. Looks like you were wrong yet AGAIN Florio. Why does msncbc pay you for your worthless predictions? I can’t believe they posted that on the front page of their website just before the game. What an embarrassment.

  83. hey saints . hand that trophy to the real winners …………..THE VIKINGS ……. you guys were whipped , only reason you won that game was cause the refs were on your side ……..NUFF SAID …………THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS WHO THE REAL WINNERS ARE

  84. Congrats to the Saints, who dat? Who dat?
    As for Peyton Manning, he proved (again) that he is who many of us THOUGHT he was…an outstanding technical quarterback but a guy who has choked many more times than not in key spots. While his choke jobs have not been as numerous as Brett Favre’s legendary choke jobs, I present the following:
    2002 Wildcard: 41-0 whooping at the hands of the Jesters
    2003 AFCCG: Favre-esque 5 INT’s at New England, 3 to Ty LAw
    2004 Divisional: Held off the scoreboard in 20-3 domination at New England
    2005 Divisional: Epic loss to Pittsburgh thanks to those pesky “protection problems”
    2006: only Super Bowl victory, presumably, that he’ll ever have
    2007: Lose to San Diego “one and Dungy” vol. I
    2008: Lose to San Diego “one and Dungy” vol. II
    2009: Chokes game away with Favrian pick 6 to seal SB 44
    For all the media pundits who used to debate Manning vs. Brady, those same hacks who’ve recently decided that Manning is not only better than Brady, but the greatest of all time (ha!!), yeah…it might be time to rethink that argument. This seasons struggles notwithstanding, Brady, is, has been and always will be the better QB.
    As for my fellow Patriots fans…finally, for the first time in five years that a Super Bowl has not ended catastrophically.
    Lastly, to the Colts fans out there: you are some of the softest, most insufferable homers I’ve come across. Team of the decade your team is not, enjoy that one Super Bowl victory because your window is slamming violently shut, once Peyton flames out in the playoffs one of two more times and retires, you’ll be abandoning that team faster than when you losers all jumped on the bandwagon after drawing crowds of 40,000 in 1997.
    By 2020 you’ll have a big retractable roof stadium with a rodent problem that holds nothing but March Madness and car conventions since your Colts will be loading up the real Mayflower and moving business operations to London. But hey, you’ll always have those fleeting memories of when Indianapolis was a “big league” city while the Colts were your team for a couple decades. This is the Colts last hurrah on the big stage. Weep, losers, weep.

  85. Going for a 51-yard field goal with a 61-year-old kicker at that point in the game from that position on the field is tantamount to coaching malpractice.

  86. Dude,wake up.The world knows Vikings had 5 turnovers and u won by 3 with a million penalties. Vikings were the best NFL team this year inbred.
    Scoreboard says otherwise.
    That is the only thing that counts last time I checked.


  88. Just stopped by to congratulate the Saints!! Happy to pass that trophy from one black & gold squad to another. Great game. Ballsy play-calling. Payton should have been coach of the year. Special congrats to the Bensons for keeping the team in Nawlins. It’s nice to see people rewarded after doing a good thing. I don’t think Manning choked–that’s taking something away from the Saints and from Porter in particular. He played that pass perfectly to make the pick. Brees did what he’s done all year–made the plays they needed to make when they needed them. That’s how you win a Super Bowl.
    And it’s especially gratifying to know that the strategy of throwing the “little” games to win the Big One failed miserably. Just as it’s nice to see the Bensons rewarded for keeping their team in place when it would have been so much easier to move, it’s nice to see that fate did not reward Bill Polian after he treated football fans–and his own team–so contemptously.

  89. Talk about winning graciously, in my second term in office i will make it federal law to win fair or you play all your home games in London – U.K. that is

  90. ahajha says:
    February 7, 2010 10:11 PM
    Colts will be back to SB in next three years. Pats….not so much
    colts lost………get over it pussy

  91. I find it pretty funny how people are ripping on Manning for throwing that Int. It was the freakin Super Bowl. You are only playing in the Super Bowl if you are a very good QB. Oh, and by the way, he was the MVP of the Season.
    He lost tonight. That makes him a great QB who lost another Super Bowl. Not a crappy QB.
    And Peyton Manning didn’t lose this game. Sean Payton won it. Brilliant play calling tonight by him.

  92. I love how Vikings fans think their team was the best this year. I guess you all can have your own parade then and think you’re the Super Bowl champions. However, you’re not, and the Saints were hands down the best team in the NFL this year.
    Just a little hint, since you all don’t know shit about football…great teams don’t COMMIT turnovers, they CREATE them! Which did the Vikings do? Oh yeah, they COMMITTED them. Don’t tell us that the Vikings would’ve won if they didn’t commit all those turnovers. My aunt would be my uncle if she had balls…
    Favre chokes and throws interceptions, your receivers can’t hold on to the ball, and your RBs fumble more times than Michael Irvin does lines of coke in a day. That does NOT make a good team.

  93. I hate the Saints and Saints fans. (Saints fans and victims of Katrina aren’t necessarily the same people folks), but if they were going to win, I’m glad they did it by Peyton Manning blowing it not once, but twice!!!! Way to be a hero Peyton!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

  94. Wrathchild……”You are only playing in the Super Bowl if you are a very good QB.:……….Ha Ha………why don’t you go tell Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, and Brad Johnson this……..
    “He lost tonight. That makes him a great QB who lost another Super Bowl. Not a crappy QB.”
    Never said he was a “crappy QB”…just not even close to being the best ever which a choke artist can never be.
    “And Peyton Manning didn’t lose this game”……ah, throwing an int when you NEED to score to tie the game constitutes “losing the game”…… definition.

  95. Deb…
    “I don’t think Manning choked–that’s taking something away from the Saints and from Porter in particular. He played that pass perfectly to make the pick.”……….Sorry, nada……..not only was the pass poorly thrown, it shouldn’t have been thrown in the first place…..doesn’t take away from the Saints but it is whatit is!

  96. “And it’s especially gratifying to know that the strategy of throwing the “little” games to win the Big One failed miserably.”
    Deb, only a time machine can prove this……….you don’t know what would have happened if they had tried to win every game…….maybe they would have gone 16-0 and lost to the Ravens………..we will never know!

  97. hayward giablommi – great post…if i could add…..
    2006: only Super Bowl victory, presumably, that he’ll ever have (and only made it there because his defense stepped up and covered for his 7 int playoff performance.)

  98. # golongboyee says: February 7, 2010 11:25 PM
    “Its actually funny because you are the ONLY PERSON on the planet who believes that, dipshit.”
    Sorry moron…..I am NOT the only one that thinks that……….and I would gladly show you any day of the week……..Loser!
    You sound like the other morons in here that think that Manning is great bcasue he calls his own plays and calls them at the line……….hate to break the news to you you but most QBs in the 70s and early 80s did this!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I guess I said that he is great because he calls his own plays? Don’t put words into my mouth.
    HAHAHA this is actually funny, you use moron twice and loser also. Its funny how you dis manning, but i’m sure your only accomplishment is that you sold 5 burgers one day at mcdonalds. Really compares to all of Peyton’s 50,000 pass yards and over 380 Td’s. Funny stuff, but all those QB’s in the 70s and early 80s did this too? wow did they throw for 50000 yards and 380 tds as well like it’s no big deal? I’d love for you to name one. Your comebacks are comical.
    How are you gonna “show me any day of the week” that you are not the only one? I’m confused? are you gonna take me out on a date? Show me pictures? I’m really curious how you expect to fulfill that one?
    # golongboyee says: February 7, 2010 11:28 PM
    “Was drafted 1 in 1998 From Tennessee, which apparently runs the same system as the colts? I don’t think so. So this system that makes him so good made him so good in college too? ”
    This quote islaughable……….first of all, many an average QB has had success in big-time college programs……..also, no, he didn’t call his own plays in college.
    ……and yes, he was a choker at TN as well, could never beat Florida nor win a championship. But they did without him!!!!
    This one is good too, i didn’t know islaughable was a word, new one to me. you must be so intelligent that you create your own words! Many average qb’s has had success in big-time college programs? Very interesting, if we were talking about an average qb. And I don’t recall asking if he called his own plays in college, i didn’t even reference that for the NFL, because that isn’t what makes him great.
    Give me some cold hard facts as to why Manning is just a system quarterback. I’m still waiting for something you say to be anything that supports your claim. I can’t wait to hear back about that. You talk a lot for saying nothing.

  99. This is the real Black and Gold, not that shitty black and YELLOW Shittsburgh Sqealers wear!!!!

  100. @golongboyee …
    Just scanned this thread. Looks like you’re talking to people who don’t know diddley about football and it would take you more than an hour to explain to them what you mean about Manning being a system QB. Roethlisberger calls a lot of his own plays and does more improvising than Manning. And like you said, back in the day, many QBs called their own plays. Peyton’s a great QB, statistically speaking, but not very exciting to watch. Too mechanical, too … systematic. That’s how Porter was able to get such a good read on him for the pick.

  101. Aaaaggghhh. Can u lot stop calling the Saints World Camps”. To be able to call yourselvs that u really should play a sport that a lot of other countries in the world deem good enough to play…u then play all of those countries to determine a winner. saints are a very good american side, and i am sure they would whip the arse of anybody else in the world.
    I enjoyed the game , watched it live here in Australia and even understood most of the rules!!
    But 45 mins to play the last 15 mins of football, no wonder we keep on playing proper football games like Aussie Rules and Rugby league ( in which we really are the world champions)
    see ya

  102. Hopefully the celebration in New orleans won’t consist of them destroying everything the rest of the country built for them, although with morons like that i dont have high hopes.
    If this finally ends the katrina crutch, its a great thing. if it doesn’t (which it probably wont) then its just a waste of time.
    btw, shouldn’t some talking heads come out calling this the greatest SB of all time? its only a matter of time.

  103. I love the morons that say the Vikings were better. The Saints had a better regular season record, beat them in the playoffs, and hoisted the Vince Lombardi trophy in the end.
    On what grounds is the Vikings the better team????

  104. Wow. I am really starting to lose respect for Saint fans. Never knew how classless some of them are until now.

  105. ahajha says:
    February 7, 2010 10:11 PM
    Colts will be back to SB in next three years.
    Yep, so that Eli can whoop his brother’s ass πŸ˜‰
    Congrats NO! I can not imagine how awesome your parties are going to be, enjoy being champions, it’s fantastic.

  106. how ironic that these annoucers rave about how much fukn study Manning does of an opponet, going back previousseasons, watching exhibition games…Porter, the guy who did the pick six, jumped the route, because of film study on Manning, …Deion & Micheal Irvin talked on NFL Network about Manning and his having 4 MVP titles and only 1 SBowl victory, in a way that all his apologists at ESPN would never do.

  107. packers4life says:
    February 8, 2010 2:52 AM
    Wow. I am really starting to lose respect for Saint fans. Never knew how classless some of them are until now.
    Finally something I can agree with you on.
    None-the-less, congrats to the Saints and their organization for a well played Super Bowl.
    I know they give the MVP to players, and Brees was well deserving, but for Sean Payton was the Most Valuable. Gutsy calls, showing confidence in your players & coaches, smart decisions and moves. Going for it on 4th down sent the message to the offense that he believed they could punch it in and the defense that he believed they could hold the Colts and get good field position if they didn’t make it. Excellent challenge on the 2pt conversion and the onside kick set the tone for the second half. This was clearly the case where coaching made a huge difference in the game.

  108. When I look at who the best team was this season, I have to go with the Vikings as well. Great offense and very good defense. Saints are the Champs — that much is fact. But unless we want to say that Tampa was better than the Saints because they beat them, or that the Redskins were nearly as good as the Saints because they took them to OT, the question of who the best team was this year is open for debate.
    This Saints team, in my book, goes down in history as one of the 10 best offenses ever and definately a top 50 team, so I’m not trying to dis them.
    With that said, are they going to pay Reggie $8million next year and $12 million the next? Are they going to pay Fujita, Sharper, Thomas, and other core players to come back?
    Damn lucky they did the job this year. This team had a brief peak relative to teams like the Pats or the Colts.

  109. Deb, good point……….pretty embarrassing that a woman knows more about football than some of the idiots in here. (please don’t take this as a knock on you)
    Tom Moore gets WAY too little credit. If Big Ben had the O Line the Colts have had, he would probably have 3-4 SBs. Mainly because he delivers. and his stats (or sometimes lack-there-of) proves you don’t have to throw for 300 yards a game to be great.
    Manning runs a flag football offense (which I am not necessarily demeaning because i think too many teams run offenses that are too complicated.) But he is part of system that significantly contributes to his success. This as oppossed to say Elway (in particular early in his career) who made the system go, even when many parts were missing. If a QB is given all the tools to work with and still cannot consistently carry the team on his back, how can anyone call him one of the greatest ever……it is ridiculous. Montana could be called in a number of ways a system QB as well…….the one difference is he consistently delivered above and beyond what the system had to offer. His first SB he had no help on offense. Plus, he didn’t choke when it mattered. So, just two easy samples of QBs easily better than Manning.
    ..and about a previous conversation on the Rooney Rule…….of which the Colts obviously are a “victim” of……..their coach is ridiculously out of touch. Any coach that calls on Stover to make a 51 yard FG in a close game like that is flat out CLUELESS!

  110. Myocum311 – loser
    “wow did they throw for 50000 yards and 380 tds as well like it’s no big deal? “……are you really this stupid..?.or do you not realize they have altered the rules to favor passing, get this idiot????If Unitas had as easy a time making completions as they do today, he would have records well beyond Mannings. 200 yards in the 60s was considered a huge game.
    Why would anyone try to give facts to someone as ignorant as you…… know nothing about football and never will!

  111. @golongboyee …
    Funny, I was thinking about Elway, too. People put too much stock in stats. Marino had all the stats in the book but no championships, and I’m sure he would gladly have traded some of those records for a ring. To me what makes a QB great is something intangible. Elway was thrilling to watch. You never knew what rabbit he’d pull out of his hat. Like you say, he made things happen–the way Ben does. Ben didn’t have a great performance in SBXL, but without that wild tackle against the Colts, we don’t get to SBXL. And that closing drive in XLIII was magic–a kind of closing magic Peyton has lacked through most of his career. Mechanics and magic are two different things. To be the greatest, you need both.
    As for Caldwell … don’t think you can lay that on the Rooney Rule. They never even looked at anyone else. He was groomed as the replacement for years. Another cog in Polian’s machine.

  112. Well someone give Tracy Porter credit for making two phenomenal plays back to back? He picked off two legends.
    K, bad throws aside, that dude and Drew Brees HAVE to be in contention for tops at their respective positions.

  113. Yes, like everything else, it must be kept in perspective. If a QB has great stats for years on a crap team (for example Bert Jones) and caries them on his shoulders, that in many ways, means more than a QB who wins 3 SBs with all the talent in the world.
    Stats mean SOMETHING but only in perspective……….Manning has attained his stats with superior talent around him in an era where passing for ridiculous yardage is assumed. Just look at all the QB who came close to passing for 4000 yards this season. (Pedstrian QBs in many cases).
    As for Calwell, you cannot tell me the Rooney Rule, directly or indirectly, contributed to his getting the job…….he is lost!

  114. # ahajha says: February 7, 2010 10:19 PM
    The Real Shuxion says: February 7, 2010 10:08 PM
    My Ravens lost before the SB… enjoy not knowing how to read douchebag
    You put nothing in that first statement there about your ravens. I cannot read your mind (even if I could I wouldn’t be reading much) If your comments were decent or had some good points maybe I would remember who your team is.
    Enjoy your division 1-A QB getting worse and worse every year.
    And enjoy Ed Reed leaving as soon as he has the chance.

  115. @golongboyee …
    Going off subject a bit, like you say, a backup can throw for 300 yards in today’s game … I feel the same about receivers. People carry on about Jerry Rice, but he was the first receiver of the West Coast age. Of course, you build up amazing stats running all those short slant routes, and since you’re not getting clobbered going up the middle all the time, you get to play longer. So I’ve never been as impressed with him as with the older guys like Swan and Stallworth–or even receivers like Irvin or Ward who strong-armed defenders. I think he’s overrated. What do you think?

  116. Yes, I agree, of course it isn’t only the QBs that benefit, it is the receivers as well. The rbs benefit too. A 1000 yd season aint what it used to be. The scary thing is, when the league expands from 16 games to 18 games (as it will eventually), all these records will be broken again. Think of it, the league still uses 1,000 as a RB benchmark which is ridiculous now. When the NFL goes to 18 games, a RB will only have to gain 56 yards a game to have a 1,000 yard season. A QB will only have to average 278 yards a game to have a 5,000 yard passing season. Marino’s record is not long for being broken. Manning’s steroid numbers will seem pedestrian at that point……

  117. Deb, gotta disagree on Rice. The West Coast age started in 1979 and Jerry didn’t hit the NFL until 1985. Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon would be the first West Coast receivers. Jerry wasn’t an instant success as he dropped a lot of passes as a rookie but he worked hard to become the best receiver that I’ve ever seen (and that includes Swann, Stallworth, Alworth, Irvin, Hayes….). Jerry’s workouts were legendary and I don’t think that there was a better conditioned athlete in ALL OF SPORTS at the time and that’s why he had such a long career (20 years).
    Swann and Stallworth were brittle. Swann’s career was cut short by injuries while Stallworth was always coming back from them. Jerry Rice kept himself in great shape and even though he went over the middle, he stayed healthy for most of his career and only had a serious injury in 1997. Jerry’s career started with a 189 game playing streak before his injury and finished with a 113 game playing streak.

  118. …yes, people say Rice is the greatest football player that ever lived which is ridiculous……he is great, i will say that. He did what he did with 2 QBs……..but I do not think of him as the best receiver ever or the best football player of all time. He is up there but….

  119. Patriot fans don’t get to talk until the Ravens decide to give them back at least one of their nuts they took in Foxboro. Pussies!

  120. The Real Shuxion says: February 8, 2010 4:08 PM
    Enjoy your division 1-A QB getting worse and worse every year.
    ——————————————————He played better than Giselle’s bitch

  121. For all the Vikes fans who say “we could have beat you but we turned it over 5 times!”
    Shut up. It becomes sad when you say you are the best team BECAUSE you turned it over 5 times and would have won. Great teams do not turn the ball over.

  122. Hey edgy1957! Glad I brought this up since both you and golongboyee are old school guys–which is a compliment. For some reason I think of Rice as being with Montana from the get-go. But you’re right about Clark and Solomon though Rice still reaped the benefits of that West Coast system. And you’re right about Swan and Stallworth, too, on the injuries. I remember reading about Rice’s famous workout regimens. I thought he was a great receiver, but even then, I thought Irvin and Carter were better. Guess I just didn’t like Jerry. Couldn’t stand Irvin either, but loved the strong arm πŸ™‚
    But NO wideout could be the best football player of all time. They don’t touch the ball that much and don’t hit anybody! I don’t think you can name a best ever player because you can’t compare positions or eras. But my list would include Slingin’ Sammy Baugh, Unitas, Jim Brown, Elway, O.J. (no matter what he’s turned out to be), and Butkus. All those guys had a big impact on the game and on the time they played. For all his faults, I think Favre’s that kind of player, too. People will remember him and be telling stories about him–probably long after they’ve forgotten Manning.

  123. # Pervy Harvin says: February 7, 2010 10:54 PM
    Big BrEasy says:
    February 7, 2010 10:31 PM
    Majik Bullet can suck on my balls. That queer bastard is just mad cuz we stomped the queens ass. SKOAL SAINTS!!!!
    Dude,wake up.The world knows Vikings had 5 turnovers and u won by 3 with a million penalties. Vikings were the best NFL team this year inbred.
    And yet no Lombardi trophy, still.
    Oh, and didn’t the Vikes have a worse record overall than both NO and Indy? So you are basing your “fact” on an opinion.
    In that case it is a FACT that you are the biggest douche to inhabit PFT Planet.

  124. Enjoy your division 1-A QB getting worse and worse every year.
    Point of note. he would be a 1-AA QB. 1-A is for the big boys.
    I couldn’t tell you what the hell they call these divisions now with the alphabet soup codes they use now.

  125. Deb, exactly. People used to say great things about, you never hear him mentioned as one of the best. Manning will do the same.
    They are both similar, great teams around them but still couldn’t really win in the playoffs, both are over-rated!

  126. Deb, Carter played in what was more of a passing offense than Rice or Irvin. Irvin played in the most run oriented offense while Rice played on a more balanced offense (Rice and Irvin both played in the West Coast offense). I’m a fan of the Pokes and never once thought that the better receiver was Irvin. Rice and Irvin were very similar in that they could both get away from the defender and get more yards.
    I also disagree about no receiver being the best. I can think of 207 reasons why he was more effective than a lot of guys, who touched the ball more. Oh, that’s right, that’s better than ANYONE (32 more, to be exact). πŸ™‚

  127. Deb, the thing that gets me (speaking of receivers) is Art Monk getting in the HOF. Talk about a joke……he was never a dominant receiver on his own TEAM, much less in the NFL.

  128. edgy1957, a Cowboys fan. And a Jerry Rice devotee. Oh dear! No, no. No “left coast” people are on my all-time-best PLAYER list. Nuh-uh. The best players have to get their uniforms dirty. People playing in the West Coast offense never have dirty uniforms. Okay, well Brett Favre. He’s a real football player. But he’s the only one. Maybe I was too quick to label you “old school.” LOL
    golongboyee, that’s a great point about Fouts. When I was a kid, he was supposed to be THE quarterback and no one mentions him now. But I do think Monk was better than you’re giving him credit for being.

  129. golongboyee, oh m y God. Art Monk IS a Hall Of Fame receiver. Not a dominant WR on his own team? What team were you watching? You sound like that moron, Peter King, who railed forever about Monk’s qualifications. 106 receptions – the first time that anyone outside of the AFL did that (Second most on the team was 42. Not dominant, huh?). He also had seasons of 91, 73, 72, , 68, 86 and 71. When he retired, he was the first player to surpass 900 receptions and he retired as the leading receiver. The rules changed late in his career after he star had faded and a lot of others have had a chance to surpass him because of those changes. I also believe that Cliff Branch belongs in the HOF but that’s never going to happen because a lot of people don’t realize what he meant to the team and Fred Biletnikoff.

  130. Deb, I call them as I see them – team be damned. I’ve been an advocate of several Raiders (Davis, Madden, Branch) and DeadSkins (The Hogs, Art Monk, George Allen) for the HOF. I put respect of an opponent above rivalry.

  131. edgy1957!!! Did you just tell golongboyee he sounds like a moron? Oh good grief. DON’T DO THAT!! We’re having a nice civilized conversation. Please don’t unleash hell.

  132. edgy1957…….you can ask ANY coach on a rival team at that time. They did not scheme against Art Monk. Sorry, it is a fact. He wasn’t a dominate receiver on the Redskins and he CERTAINLY wasn’t a dominate receiver in the NFL. If you think different……YOU ARE A MORON…….anyone that ISN”T a blind homer ‘Skins fans knows it too. In fact, Gibbs specifically had things organized where if Monk hadn’t caught a pass in the game by the third quarter, this person was to tell Gibbs so he could get a pass thrown to him. THIS IS DOCUMENTED FACT. Gee, that really makes his record worth a damn doesn’t it!

  133. just to be clear, I am not saying he was a TERRIBLE receiver……not at all. He was a great receiver in a general sense. But, a receiver that isn’t even the most feared receiver on his team nor a dominant receiver in the league should not be in the HOF!

  134. ..and just to be clear…..Peter King is a huge waffler who knows nothing about football…recently, he would write that Manning is the best, 2 years ago, he would write that he is great, but flawed,……what do you think he will write now????
    He is paid to come up with content.

  135. Howdy, fellas!
    edgy1957, it’s actually worse to compare someone to Peter King than to call him a moron.
    But golongboyee, you handled it very well! πŸ˜‰ King is paid to come up with content, but he should be able to come up with intelligent content. And how he got a Hall of Fame vote is a mystery. The guy is clueless and biased. I’d love to see the breakdown on how the voting went this year.
    edgy1957, I call ’em like I see ’em, too, without regard to team loyalty–or sacred cow status πŸ™‚
    If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have praised Irvin. I’m a Steelers fan–don’t have much use for the ‘boys. I like receivers who don’t mind using a strong arm.
    King’s already backtracking on Manning from what I hear. But when did Manning suddenly shoot from “future HoF QB” to “THE BEST EVER”? Seems like this conversation about him being the greatest football player who ever lived just came out of nowhere. It’s only been a couple of years since everyone was saying he was a great QB but couldn’t win the Big One. I wouldn’t think a single win over Rex Grossman would suddenly make him an iconic figure. I just don’t get it. He’s a terrific QB. But I don’t get a chill up my spine when he walks on the field.

  136. If I was assembling an NFL team today, and could sign any active QB to a 5-year contract, it would be close.
    The ones in the conversation would be Manning, Brees, Brady, and perhaps Sanchez or Rodgers if you believe in their raw ability.
    As a Vikes fan with a 40-year-old QB, I frankly would be thrilled to have anyone I just named.
    My point is that it is closer than I realized when you take them out of their system, take their current receivers away, etc. I’d probably go with Brady. I think Brady has done incredible things with very average receivers.
    I don’t argue, though, that Manning revolutionized the position with the amount of no-huddle and on-field calls he makes.

  137. golongboyee, NOW you sound EXACTLY like Peter King, who was the biggest and most vocal opponent for Art Monk’s induction into the HOF (and a voter, as well). You know, during their time together, Gary Clark had more receptions, yards and TDs against the Giants (This is Peter King’s argument that the Giants feared Clark more than Monk). Now, either the Giants tried to hold down Monk or they were just crappy defenders (and we know that the latter isn’t true). BTW, did you know that when they played together that Cliff Branch had more receptions, yards and TDs against the Chiefs than Fred Biletnikoff? Who do you think that the Chiefs tried to keep from catching the ball?
    Fact: Art Monk retired as the leading receiver in Redskins’ history – Gary Clark did not. Art Monk holds nearly all of the Redskins’ records – Gary Clark does not. Art Monk retired as the leading N-F-L receiver – Gary Clark did not. Art Monk did all of this BEFORE they changed the rules to make it even easier on receivers.
    BTW, here’s a couple of sets of numbers (0 catches, 1 catch, 2 or more catches) % may exceed 100% due to rounding:
    Receiver A: (0 catches) 2 games (1.2% of games played), (1 catch) 29 games (16.8 %) and (2 or more catches) 149 games (82.1%) 9 of this receiver’s last 16 games consisted of a single catch.
    Receiver B (0 catches) 1 game (0.5%), (1 catch) 24 games (10.8%) and (2 or more catches) 197 games (88.7%). 4 of his last 16 games consisted of a single catch.
    Now, I’m sure that you deduced by now that Receiver B is Art Monk. Well, Receiver A is Fred Biletnikoff, a HOF receiver (or do you believe that they made a mistake in putting him in as well?). If you’re going to play the “catch to extend a streak” card, I can come up with more than a few guys in the HOF or on the cusp, that had it done for them. Let’s face facts: if you take away the 24 receptions, he still finishes with over 900 catches AND he still retires as the leading receiver (He’s currently 9th on the list. The guy who was second, Steve Largent is 20th. His numbers were (0) 0 (0%), (1) 19 (9.6%) and (2+) 179 (90.4%). A small percentage difference and yet, didn’t have to wait as long for the HOF (and in his last 16 games, he caught just 1 pass in 4 games – the same as Monk, who wasn’t playing for the Redskins at the time while Largent was playing with the Seahawks). The guy who was third, James Lofton, is 25th and his numbers were (0) 3 (1.4%) , (1), 34 (15.8%) and (2+) 178 (82.8%). Again, not a HOF WR? BTW, Lofton also caught just 1 pass in 4 of his last 16 games and actually was shut out in another).
    You might want to re-read my messages HERE because you’d know that I’m a Cowboys fan. Get that – an OPPOSING FAN actually taking up for a player that played for their most bitter rival. I also supported putting in Parcells even before he came out of retirement and took over the Cowboys and I couldn’t believe that they would pass him over for Levy (The voters said that they didn’t want to vote him in and then have him unretire and then Gibbs comes out of retirement to prove how stupid they were and as it turns out, Levy was pushing the Bills for a job even before the vote and they didn’t make him the coach but they did make him the GM so once again, a HOFer comes out of retirement and made the voters’ point about Parcells moot).

  138. @Deb
    Haven’t seen you in awhile Deb, who do you think is the best QB ever?
    I don’t want to be involved in this argument, I just want to point out that its tough to compare those 2 WRs because Fred played from 1965-1978 and Art Monk played in the pass heavy 80s.

  139. Ghost of Studwell, I’d go younger than Brees but older than Sanchez (Oh and why just him, given that his stats were nearly identical to Freeman and Stafford, who played on far crappier team?). Eli Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Roethlisberger (a lot of Rs…) and Schaub would be at the top of my list. They all have experience in the league and they’ve proven that they’re able to lead their teams.
    I would argue that Manning hasn’t revolutionized the position because that was how it was long before he ever took the field AND other QBs can do it as well (Just like other QBs AND players study film, though the media makes it seem like only the Mannings do that).

  140. this class sucks, I also compared him to two of his contemporaries – Largent and Lofton. Oh and you do realize that Fred played in the pass happy AFL, right?

  141. Hello everyone …
    Well, this class sucks, I think it’s almost impossible to compare QBs from different eras and different systems. As golongboyee pointed out, when the league goes to 18 games, you’ll have people breaking all kinds of records with little effort. O.J. Simpson broke 2000 yards in a 12-game season. As for QBs, from a historic perspective, it’s hard to argue against Slingin’ Sammy Baugh. I put a lot of stock in who’s the best field general–that means rings–so that puts Bradshaw and Montana at the top of my list. As for who always kept me on the edge of my seat: Elway.
    But if you’re talking about who I want at the helm right now–Ghost of Studwell–you did not actually put Mark Sanchez on a list and leave out Roethlisberger LOL Sanchez is a cutie pie!! Adorable! But there are only two QBs playing today who have multiple rings: Brady & Roethlisberger. The guy I want behind center is the guy who not only took us to a conference championship his rookie year, but had the wherewithal to make the game-saving tackle against the Colts and to get to the Super Bowl the next year and who led the winning drive in SBXLIII last year. Give me Big Ben.
    Next for me, in order: Brady, Brees, Favre, and Peyton. Eli is overrated thanks to one wild Super Bowl throw that owed a lot to David Tyree. The next best is Rivers. Sanchez has promise. But Rivers & Sanchez haven’t yet crossed that championship divide. As for Romo–he is probably the most overrated QB in recent memory. Forget all these guys. He’s no Meredith, Staubach, or Aikman. No thanks.
    Peyton has great stats but a history of failing to close in big games. That is a problem.

  142. Deb, I would have agreed with you about Romo a couple of years ago but he really turned a corner this year. Oh and AT WORST, he’s Meredith, who never won anything as a Cowboy. I also think that you’re being way too harsh on Eli, who had to adapt to losing his favorite target and integrating several new guys into the passing offense and it certainly wasn’t his fault that the defense was the worst that I can remember for the Giants.

  143. @edgy1957 …
    I’ve read horrible stories about how Meredith was treated by Cowboys fans after putting the franchise on the map. But if you want to take him out of the conversation because he never won a championshiop, okay. But until Romo wins one, you can’t put him in the same class with Staubach and Aikman. Good grief. Those are Hall of Fame QBs. Romo? Not a chance. I wouldn’t put Ben in the same class with them yet, and Romo’s not anywhere near Ben.
    I’m sorry Eli lost his favorite target. So did Peyton–didn’t slow him down. A lot of QBs have lost their favorite targets. I think Eli is a good QB. But he’s not top-paid-QB-in-the-league good.

  144. Deb, if you look at QBs that are 26 to 29, the guys that I named are the best. All have worked with good and bad receivers and all have been around long enough that they know what it takes to be a QB in the league. Frankly, before Drew Brees’ third season, he was kind of coasting but he finally put it together (and it didn’t hurt that he had the newly drafted Rivers pushing him). If you had told the fans in San Diego after his third season that you thought he was a Super Bowl QB, they’d have laughed their butts off and written you off but last Sunday, he got the last laugh.
    As for Dandy Don, he was a good QB but there were times that he didn’t take his job that seriously and that drove Landry nuts. I’ve watched Romo grow up and he’s a lot different even from the QB that started the season. He’s absolutely stunk in December but this year, he really shone and even though the team got swamped by the Vikings, he did manage to lead the team to their first playoff win in a LONG time. He also broke in a replacement for T.O. and had to deal with a WR who had no business being out on the field, save for the fact that Jerry Jones had given up so much for him and yet, he had his second best year for TD and his best year, by a wide margin, for interceptions.
    Let’s NOT rewrite history like the Colts’ fans. Peyton DID NOT lose his favorite target because Harrison had been out of the conversation for three years while Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne (leading receiver for 3 years running) have overtaken him and Anthony Gonzalez proved that he was ready to take over for him in 2008 after subbing for him in 2007. Gonzalez was out last year but he moved his attention even more to Clark and Wayne (100 receptions apiece) and Addai doubled his from the previous year (25 to 51).

  145. Deb, Edgy –
    My apologies for leaving Ben off that list. My list is:
    Rodgers and Romo are almost there. I think I like Rodgers more than Romo based on this season.
    Still think Sanchez emerges as the young guy who is a cut above. But we were all writing Brees off for his first 3 years in the league, so I’m sure there are others who should be in the mix.

  146. @edgy1957 …
    When you talk about those QBs 26-29, you’re talking stats. I’ve already posted somewhere that I’m more concerned w/intangibles. The only time I look up stats is if I’m trying to make a point or voting for the Pro Bowl. I go with my gut based on what I see on the field. It might be a single play that sells me on a player or turns me off. Or it may be a body of work. But you’d be surprised how often my instincts prove good. Drives my brother nuts sometimes. He knows more about football than anyone I’ve met, but I been known to best him on those “gut” calls πŸ™‚
    Romo has yet to really impress me. It’s good that you’ve seen improvement. I’ve seen a lot of improvement in Ben, too. But he managed to pick up two rings while improving. Given the salaries they earn as starters, it’s assumed they’ll be able to perform at a certain level from the start without having to grow into it. Maybe Romo will impress me before his career ends … but I doubt I’ll ever think of him as more than middle of the pack no matter how his stats look. The only thing that would likely change my mind is rings. Sorry.
    Okay, I’ll give you that on Harrison. But even if Burress hadn’t been railroaded into a two-year prison term, Eli wouldn’t be worthy of receiving the highest QB salary in the league. Good grief.

  147. Edgy1957……….longevity isn’t a route to the HOF. If it was Vinny Testeverde would be headed there.
    Also, there is a difference between dominance and being a team leading receiver. and it is part of the point. Monk wasn’t even a dominant receiver on a team that never had great receivers. A lot of GOOD receivers sure…….but not great. Sorry, your arguments are worthless.
    But, he is not the first or the last person to go into the HOF when he isn’t really deserving of it………sorry

  148. “I don’t argue, though, that Manning revolutionized the position with the amount of no-huddle and on-field calls he makes. ”
    This statement is totally inaccurate and false, sorry. Many QBs in the 70s and 80s called their own plays AND called them from the line. AND they did it when passing was much more difficult.
    Just becasue QBs these days have been dumbed down to be robots doesn’t mean Manning is revolutionary. He is not, period.

  149. Playoff records
    Brady 14-4
    Montana 16-7
    Elway 14-8
    Favre 13-11
    Warner 9-4
    Roth 8-2
    The best ever, PPLLLEEAASSEEE!!!!!!!!!!!
    The best now are Brees, Big Ben, Brady, Rogers, Favre (if he is still considered to be playing), Warner (if he was still playing).and yes Manning (with reservations)…..i am sure I am forgetting somebody but….

  150. Deb, 26-29 is a perfect age for someone that you want to give a 5-year contract (which is what started this). 30+ is more of a risk. That’s why I put it at 26-29.
    Uh, not to get you mad but let’s face it, they won that first Super Bowl DESPITE Ben not because of him (Or do you believe that he was the MVP despite setting the Super Bowl record for the lowest QB rating for a Super Bowl QB and the embarrassment that their only TD pass was thrown by a WR, an ex-QB, who wasn’t considered good enough to be a QB). They’ve also missed the playoffs after each appearance. While this year isn’t his fault, he showed a lot of immaturity by not wearing a helmet while he was riding his motorcycle (and this is coming from a person who DID). You can point to Ben but he’s been along for he ride more than you want to admit.
    As for Eli – you bring up that one catch but again — what the hell did Ben do that was noteworthy in his first Super Bowl? Seriously, what…..

  151. # golongboyee says:
    Edge, if you would take Eli Manning out of all the QBs out there, you really are clueless!
    Apparently you can’t READ. Maybe you should go back and READ and COMPREHEND. Jesus..

  152. Edge, apparently I can, here is your quote…
    “Eli Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Roethlisberger (a lot of Rs…) and Schaub would be at the top of my list.”
    Are you not saying Manning is one of the best?????????

  153. # golongboyee says: February 9, 2010 10:54 PM
    Edgy1957……….longevity isn’t a route to the HOF. If it was Vinny Testeverde would be headed there.
    Also, there is a difference between dominance and being a team leading receiver. and it is part of the point. Monk wasn’t even a dominant receiver on a team that never had great receivers. A lot of GOOD receivers sure…….but not great. Sorry, your arguments are worthless.
    But, he is not the first or the last person to go into the HOF when he isn’t really deserving of it………sorry
    Just talking skill position players and not others who have played a long time, here are a list of Hall Of Famers and how long they played (see if you can figure out the theme): Art Monk – 16 years, Steve Largent – 14 years. James Lofton – 16 years. Don Maynard – 16 years. Charlie Taylor – 14 years. Fred Biletnikoff – 14 years. Charlie Joiner – 18 years. Emmitt Smith – 15years. Marcus Allen – 16 years. Joe Perry – 16 years. Earl Campbell – 16 years. Dan Marino – 17 years. John Elway – 16 years. Warren Moon – 17 years (and that’s NOT counting Canada). Fran Tarkenton – 18 years. Joe Montana – 16 years. Dan Fouts – 15 years. Johnny Unitas – 18 years. Y.A. Tittle – 17 years. Sonny Jurgensen – 18 years. Jerry Rice – 20 years. To top it all off – George Blanda – 26 years. You know, you’re right – they should keep ALL of these old timers out of the Hall Of Fame. Oh and how about some of the guys who are on the outside looking in: Brett Favre – 19 years (and counting), Chris Carter – 16 years. Tim Brown – 15 years. Andre Reed – 16 years. Issac Bruce (16 years and counting). Yes, let’s get the writers to vote against them because they hung around so long…….

  154. “what the hell did Ben do that was noteworthy in his first Super Bowl? Seriously, what…..”
    Ah….he LED the team……….stats aren’t everything and a QB can actually only complete 5 passes and have a greater impact on a game than another with 30.
    Big Ben proved himself last year……..if Manning had been playing with that offense line of the Steelers, he wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs, what does Ben do, win the SB. He has an instinct for the pocket that Manning will never have.

  155. “Uh, not to get you mad but let’s face it, they won that first Super Bowl DESPITE Ben not because of him “………….Edge, this is beyond moronic. Ben is the leader of that team whether he has a great game PASSING or not.

  156. @Ghost of Studwell …
    No problem. Looking at your list now, we’re on the same page. I really like Sanchez. He’s a gutsy player–that goes a long way.
    @edgy1957 …
    Ben didn’t have a good game in Super Bowl XL. But we wouldn’t have been in SBXL if not for Ben. He had a tremendous year leading up to the Super Bowl and made the game-saving tackle in the Colts game. It was an extraordinary play that saved our season.
    Along for the ride? Are you kidding? Ben turned the Steelers around. We were without a championship for 26 years. In the six years he’s been with the team, we’ve been to three championship games and won two Super Bowls. We had everything in place before. Great defenses, Pro Bowl linebackers. All Pro linemen. Great running games. The only missing piece was the QB.
    As for that motorcycle accident … it’s legal to ride without a helmet in Pittsburgh. He was a big, strong, 24-year-old football player driving less than 30 mph. A woman ran a stop sign and made an illegal turn in front of him. He didn’t do ANYTHING reckless or irresponsible. Is it unwise to ride without a helmet? Yes. But if idiot governors and legislatures are going to abolish helmet laws, you can’t blame young bikers from not realizing how risky it is!
    Ben wasn’t to blame for our season going south that year. If anyone was to blame it was Cowher. He mentally checked out after the Super Bowl. He was dissatisfied with his contract negotiations and planning his “retirement.” And he had NO BUSINESS letting Ben on the field so soon after that accident–especially not with him having the appendectomy, too. By the grace of God, he didn’t suffer a life-threatening hit. If they’d kept Ben out a little longer and gone with the backup, we might have made the playoffs that year. And Ben’s sure as heck not the one who let us down this year.
    Along for the ride? You’re nuts!

  157. @ Deb
    In case you missed Romo’s numbers this season, and his career numbers he clearly isn’t over rated. The media’s expectations are just too high. Ben has benefited from phenominal defenses and one hell of a catch. Ben is by far, the most over rated QB in the leauge. Just ask his 3rd and 4th chin and his couch where he watched the playoffs from this season.

  158. golongboyee, let’s try this again (hit the submit button by mistake). I made a list of QBs who I’d start a team around and give a 5-year contract (Ghost of Studwell’s terms) but I decided to go with guys aged 26-29 to reduce the risks of giving a long-term contract to an older player, who could get injured. I listed them in semi-alphabetical order and NOT in order of preference. Had I done it in order of preference, I would have listed them pretty close to the same order: Rivers, Rodgers, Roethlisberger,Romo, Manning and Schaub. Understand? I put the list out there but not in order of who I thought was best.

  159. golongboyee says:
    Ah….he LED the team……….stats aren’t everything
    Unless you’re trying to take an opposing view against me, you are probably one of the few people on this planet that honestly believes that. Most people believe that he had one of the poorest performances of any QB, on either side of a decision, in the Super Bowl. Don’t get me wrong, I like Ben but only a blind man would even consider his performance in the Super Bowl excusable or that he led his team.

  160. Deb, look, I didn’t say that they wouldn’t have been there without him (Frankly, the season wouldn’t have needed saving if the officials hadn’t screwed up that interception. After they ruled it incorrectly, the Colts went down to score and tighten the game. The defense had Manning in a vise grip until the officials screwed up the call) but Romo’s been given crap by people for his performances and yet, he’s never stunk up the building like Ben did. Heck, Ben’s played in 10 playoff games and thrown a pick in 6. That’s getting up into Jay Cutler territory and the team has had to win 3 – count ’em – 3 games that he’s thrown 2 or more picks, including the Super Bowl.
    Oh and I don’t care if it is legal, it’s STUPID. I have had an accident and I WAS wearing a helmet and I walked away without a scratch.
    Ben WAS responsible just like that idiot Kellen Winslow was responsible for knocking himself out of the lineup because of a motorcycle accident (in a parking lot, no less). Most teams and contracts prohibit this activity because they know that an accident on one of these is far more severe to the person than if they were in a car. Whether it was someone else’s fault that the accident happened is a moot point. He should have never been on the bike in the first place, especially since he had an EXPIRED — wait for it – LEARNER’S permit. Also, it would appear that even with the law as it was, he was mandated to wear a helmet because of his status. BTW, here’s what Terry Bradshaw had to say to Ben BEFORE he had his accident:

  161. @edgy1957 …
    You can’t have any kind of performance in a Super Bowl unless you actually GET to a Super Bowl. We wouldn’t have gotten to Super Bowl XL without Roethlisberger. He didn’t have a good performance in the game, but he didn’t have a Neil O’Donnell game-killer performance either. He saved Super Bowl XLIII. His presence on the team is the primary reason we had to make room for trophies five and six.
    @chapnasty2 …
    chap, if you’d read the thread, you wouldn’t be talking stats to me. With that and the silliness about Ben’s weight, it’s obvious you’re just trying to start a donnybrook and I don’t have time to play today, so give it up. At least Ben can spend his time on the couch shining his rings–more than I can say for Huckleberry Hound.

  162. @edgy1957 …
    I don’t need links to see what Terry had to say to Ben! I know what Terry had to say to Ben! This is my team, for heaven’s sake! And I know he had an expired learner’s permit. You’re not talking to some wet-behind-the-ears schoolgirl! And do not compare a guy driving carefully under 30 mph who has an accident that was NOT HIS FAULT with some dipstick showoff performing insane stunts in a parking lot.
    Yes, Terry warned him. Others warned him. But NO ONE contractually forbade him from being on that bike. Our brilliant ex-governor Jeb Bush and our brilliant legislature overturned Florida’s helmet laws. You know, less government is good and all that. So every time I leave the house I see people a lot older than Ben riding without helmets–and I can’t blame them. When I was 10, I rode on the back of my cousin’s motorcycle, streaking down rural backroads in Alabama with no shoes and no helmet. It was glorious. To this day, I hate helmets. I wear them, but I hate them.
    Ben honestly believed that if he drove carefully and responsibly he’d be okay. And he did drive carefully and responsibly. He made an error in judgment. Happens to the best of us. His nearly cost him his life. And to his credit, rather than blaming everyone and everything else for his mistake, he owned up and apologized to the Rooneys, his coaches, his teammates, his fans.
    Good for you that you wore a helmet in your accident and came out okay. My cousin wore one in his and still lost a leg. And Ben could just as easily have been driving a car, all buckled in, and been sideswiped by a woman running a stop sign and wound up with just as many injuries. Life happens.
    And none of this has a bloody thing to do with his skill as a quarterback.

  163. Deb says: February 10, 2010 12:15 PM
    @edgy1957 …
    You can’t have any kind of performance in a Super Bowl unless you actually GET to a Super Bowl.
    No, the team wouldn’t have gotten there without their defense. Let’s not forget that they MAULED Indy (as well as taking out Carson Palmer on the first play of the playoffs). The defense gave him a lot of short fields and they harassed their opponents into mistakes, including the one that SHOULD have clinched the game against the Colts (but you won’t hear the Colts fans talk about that) and again, we’re NOT talking about the last Super Bowl. I’m just saying that Romo has time to have playoff success.

  164. Deb, again, it’s a MOOT point that the accident wasn’t his fault (It wasn’t mine, either). Your cousin lost a leg BUT did he sustain the kind of injuries that Ben did, which resulted in all those surgeries? The answer would most likely be NO because all I had to do was buy a new helmet because it cracked and wouldn’t have been good for any other accident. My best friend was stationed in Florida and despite all his years on a motorcycle and the fact that he was mandated by the Navy to wear a helmet, he parked his bike and didn’t ride it for 4 years after a couple of times on the road convinced him that one of those old people were going to clip him (and because they were always showing just that on the TV stations).
    Oh and there’s no way in hell that Ben takes that kind of damage, even in a sideswipe, if he’s buckled in. My nephew had the same thing happen to him and the only thing that saved him was that he was buckled in and he also got learn about side airbags, to boot.
    The team is at fault just as much as Ben because they should have forbidden him and I don’t care how anyone feels about their rights, it’s THEIR MONEY and his rights be damned. Most of the major sports have specific language forbidding these kinds of activities because of how it can affect a team if they lose a player to injury and it’s a sign of stupidity that the Steelers didn’t put that into his contract, like Cleveland did with Winslow. 52 other people on his team were affected by his immature decision and no apology is going to make up for that.

  165. @edgy1957 …
    We had a superior defense throughout the 1990s but weren’t winning Super Bowls. The one time we actually got to a Super Bowl–with one of the best defenses I’ve ever seen–the quarterback threw the game away.
    If Romo had to play behind Ben’s line, he’d be dead now. And don’t even start with that “Ben holds the ball too long” stuff. Sometimes Ben holds the ball longer than he should–but if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have made some of his best plays. But often the pocket has collapsed on his head before he’s even gotten a good grip on the ball and he’s let that sorry line off the hook by taking the blame. Now that we’ve gotten rid of that sorry o-line coach who replaced Grimm, I’m expecting to see some improvement. I have high hopes for Zierlein’s replacement.
    As for Romo having time–yes, he does. Ben was in a conference championship his rookie year and hugging a Lombardi his second year. He didn’t need all that time.
    I think when their careers are over, Ben is going to be talked about as a Hall of Fame QB, and Romo will be middle of the pack. All we can do is wait and see.

  166. @edgy1957 …
    The Steelers should have contractually prohibited Ben from riding–and certainly from riding without a helmet. That they didn’t is their responsibility. I’d agree with you if Ben had been doing stupid stunts in a parking lot. But he was driving about 26 mph and carefully obeying traffic laws. Ben didn’t intend to put himself at risk. He made a young man’s error in judgment, and he learned from it.
    Don’t know why you want to use Ben’s accident as an example of QB inferiority and poor leadership. But I approach it from a different perspective. I’m a cancer survivor and have had a lot of health issues–and more than two dozen surgeries. If you met me, you’d swear I’d never been sick in my life. I know all too well what it took for Ben to be back at practice so soon after that accident looking like everything was honky-dory. And I know what it took to stand in the pocket behind that collapsing o-line and try to show no fear–especially on top of that emergency appendectomy. He did it because he didn’t want to let down the Rooneys, his teammates, and the fans. That took a lot of courage, commitment, and mental and physical toughness.
    So … like I said about instinct, Ben earned many more points with me for how he handled the aftermath of that accident than he lost by not wearing a helmet. And I think when his career ends, they’ll be talking about him for the Hall of Fame.

  167. Deb says:
    If Romo had to play behind Ben’s line, he’d be dead now.
    I don’t think you watch enough Cowboys games to know their OL. It is the most overrated OL in the NFL and it’s BECAUSE of Tony Romo that they even made it to the Pro Bowl because their stats are so much better because he gets out of trouble and avoids the sacks that other QBs would get AND they DID get him hurt in 2008 because of that (he missed 3 games and he wasn’t the same when he came back). The sack % of any Dallas QB not named Tony Romo from 2006-2008 was TWICE that of Tony because Dallas’ other QBs aren’t as nimble as he is. Also, the Gurode Missiles (Shot gun snaps from Pro Bowler Andre Gurode that go over the QB’s head) end up being sacks for the other Cowboys QBs but Tony has turned them into some very big plays, which I’m sure that you’ve seen on ESPN. BTW, Charlie Batch’s sack % behind that same OL isn’t even close to Ben’s. Could it be because HE HOLDS THE BALL TOO LONG? I know you don’t want me to say it but it is true.
    Again – apples and oranges. Ben was put in the position NOT to lose the games while Romo was put in the position to HAVE TO win them. Ben threw 20 or fewer passes in 7 of his 14 games while the fewest that Romo threw once he got the keys to the car was 23 (Threw 30+ 5 times). The Steelers ran 618 times while the Pokes ran it 472. The Cowboys put it in the air 506 times; the Steelers – not so much (358). Dallas was playing like a team from the 2000s while Pittsburgh as playing like a team from the 1970s. Even the year that they won the Super Bowl, they played it close to the vest (379 passes, 549 runs). Reverse their situations and you’d be singing the praises of Romo and talking about how Ben is nothing more than a statue.

  168. Deb says:
    in a parking lot. But he was driving about 26 mph and carefully obeying traffic laws. Ben didn’t intend to put himself at risk. He made a young man’s error in judgment, and he learned from it.
    Man, it keeps getting lower and lower. Next, it’ll be 13 mph. πŸ˜‰
    MOOT POINT and even more to the point, he was NOT in a parking lot so it would have been more prudent for him to be wearing his helmet. Imagine him trying to pull this with the military. They would have laughed their butts off before they charged him with destruction of government property and reduced him in rank and fined him (and I’ve seen this happen; once over a sun burn that caused a guy to miss a flight).
    I didn’t see it had ANYTHING to do with QB inferiority. I did say that it does show IMMATURITY and I won’t back down from that. Oh and yes, it does show poor leadership because leaders need to think about the consequences of their actions and NOT after they get bitten in the butt because of it.
    This isn’t a debate about the Hall Of Fame and if you want to turn it into one then you’re going to be alone. What this IS about (and you’ve lost sight of that) is what QBs that I would start a team with and give a 5-year contract. The funny thing is that I didn’t dis Ben and I even listed him before Romo. The thing is that if you were to put Tony on that same team and give him the same restrictions as Ben, he would have done as well. Ben was put in the position for his first couple of years NOT to lose, much like Terry Bradshaw. In Dallas, he would exposed the Cowboys line for what it is and you’d be complaining about how he was holding the ball too much now that he’s on the other side of the conversation. Ben’s sack % has been consistently one of the worst in the NFL and in 2004, he had three Pro Bowl linemen and in 2005, he had two (and the left side, which went to the Pro Bowl in 2004, was still intact).

  169. @edgy1957 …
    So we’re playing like it’s the 70s? LOL Okay! If the 2010 Pittsburgh Steelers want to play like the 1978 Pittsburgh Steelers with the same results, that’s fine by me!! I like smashmouth seasons that end with us adding Lombardi Trophies to our trophy case. If one of our linebackers wants to pick up a Cowboy, carry him a few feet, and drop him on his head in a Super Bowl (a la Lambert–was that X or XIII?), I’m okay with that, too πŸ˜‰
    You’re quoting stats at me again, edgy. What did I tell you about that? Here’s what matters to me:
    From 1984-2003, we played in three conference championships and won one. We played in one Super Bowl and lost … despite having stellar defenses, great running games, and some of the best o-lines in football.
    During the Bradshaw and Roethlisberger years, we played in eight conference championships and won six (so far). We played in six Super Bowls and won six (so far). Yes, we had stellar defenses, great running games, and at least part of that time, some of the best o-lines in football. The only difference: the men under center.
    Terry and Ben may not be the best to ever play from a statistical standpoint, but they brought the magic we needed to win it all. To me, it’s about having a combination of technique and magic. They had/have it. And I wouldn’t trade either of them for any other QBs on earth.

  170. @edgy1957 …
    Frankly, I can’t remember what we’re debating, except that you keep talking about Ben’s motorcycle accident. Yes, it was immaturity. He was an immature kid. QB of the Steelers is the only job he’s ever had. He wasn’t in the military, so you can’t hold him to that standard. I’ve led an unusual life, so I can’t hold him to my standard for that age either. And I doubt you could hold Tony Romo to those standards either.
    Our line in 04/05 isn’t what our line has been lately. I believe it’s primarily a coaching issue. Everything fell apart when Grimm left. I’m very pleased with the new coach we’ve brought in. Now we’ll see.
    And smarty pants, I said all along he was driving less than 30 mph–I believe it was actually 26, but I’m not positive. That’s why I kept saying less than 30 mph. That’s my journalism training. Just striving to be accurate πŸ™‚

  171. @Edgy1957
    Idk what this debate is about but I don’t think anyone in their right mind would take Romo over Ben in any situation. You can rattle off a lot of stats but would Romo have made that last drive against the Cards?
    Plus saying Bradshaw was only in a position not to lose only proves you knowledge of football is based off a popular opinion that is based on nothing. Bradshaw was his own offensive coordinator (not like Peyton is like he really was), and made Stallworth and Swann into great WRs.

  172. Ooooo, this class sucks, thanks for reminding me … Ben calls a lot of his own plays, too. Just like Manning.

  173. Deb, the fact is that he was a caretaker and they only needed him as a caretaker. They went to the Super Bowl before him with a caretaker QB and his poor performance cost them while Ben’s didn’t. Fast Willie stumbles on the first play of the third quarter and they go three and out and you’re thrashing him like everyone else.
    Don’t like stats, ok, try this on for size: OL with Ben, gives up a lot of sacks but without him, not so much. Has the same three guys who made the Pro Bowl on his left side for several years and YET, he still gets sacked. His sack numbers NOW are no worse than they were when he was a rookie. They may look worse because he passes more but they’re actually better than his rookie season. Jeff George used to rail about his OL but when he was out of the game or he left for another team, they were “mysteriously” so much better.

  174. Deb, you’re the one who keeps bringing it up. I’m done but you keep sucking me back in. Oh and I’d hold Romo to the same standards because he’s LEADING the team. Either one’s decisions affect 52 other players MORE than anyone else save the coaches. You can try to blame Cowher like some Cowboys fans tried to blame Simpson but their problems were THEIR making. Cowher didn’t put him on the motorcycle and Romo could have told Jessica to wait until after the season before they jetted off for a vacation. There is a standard that QBs must be held to and if they don’t think about the consequences of their actions, they need to be called out on it by their coaches or their owners and if their fragile egos can’t take it then maybe they’re not the persons that they thought they were. Both players grew up but it was long after they short-circuited their teams’ chances for success.
    You can blame it on the loss of Grimm but the fact is, he’s getting sacked just as badly NOW as he was back when Grimm was around. What he really needs is some tough love from the coach that allows him to throw the ball away sooner and live another day. I’ve heard people talk about the OL as the worst in the NFL but I guarantee you that if he were behind the Raiders’ OL, you’d KNOW what the worst OL in the NFL is.

  175. # this class sucks says: February 10, 2010 6:58 PM
    Idk what this debate is about but I don’t think anyone in their right mind would take Romo over Ben in any situation. You can rattle off a lot of stats but would Romo have made that last drive against the Cards?
    Is there a total lack of reading comprehension here? WHERE in all of this have I said that Tony was better than Ben? My list actually puts Ben BEFORE Romo and I can’t help that Deb concentrated on dissing Tony instead of seeing that I’m including Ben on the list.
    Yes, Tony could have made that last drive and if you had ever seen a Cowboys game, you’d have actually seen that happen before.
    Oh and “genius”, what helped Stallworth and Swann were the rules changes in 1978 OR do you believe that it was a mere coincidence that the Bradshaw, as well as Swann and Stallworth, had his best seasons AFTER that and that the Steelers just magically decided to pass more from 1978 onward? Also, Bradshaw benefited from the fact that he could throw the ball up for grabs and one of those two would come down with it more than the defenders.
    Again — not a good reader, are you? I was talking about his first two Super Bowls, where he didn’t do much but give the ball to the running backs (14 and 19 attempts). Does a 2-0 halftime score bring back memories as to how dull that first Super Bowl was?

  176. @edgy1957 …
    So testy!
    I’m not the one who brought Ben’s accident into this discussion! I don’t disagree that he made foolish and immature choices (though not as fooish and immature as the Simpson thing). I just disagree that those choices were the reason our season tanked. Cowher mentally abandoned the team in 06, and it showed. If you want to talk about leadership, the the buck stops there.
    Yes, Ben was on your list of good QBs but you’ve minimized his role in the team’s success and I disagree. You can quote me every stat, but I see a Field General who’s led the team to two championships. He played poorly in the first, but they wouldn’t have gotten there without him. He saved the second with a coolness under pressure that Manning lacks. Comparing Ben to O’Donnell is like comparing Griese to Yepremian.
    Does he take too many sacks? Yes. Are they all his fault? No. Are some of them his fault because he doesn’t throw the ball away when common sense dictates he should? Yes. Are some of them the result of poor coaching of blocking schemes and footwork on the o-line? Definitely. Should BOTH these issues be addressed? YES The line will be addressed by the new o-line coach. Ken Anderson, Arians, Tomlin, Whisenhunt, and Cowher should have addressed the throw-away issue with Roethlisberger. But they all have been reluctant to do that because he does so often make magic by holding onto the ball, and no one wants to screw up his mojo.
    And you’re right, of course, about Bradshaw not coming into his own with the Steelers until the last two Super Bowls. But he was honorable mention for the 75th anniversary team so his efforts involved a little more precision than throwing it up and trusting S or S would come down with it.

  177. Deb, now, you’re just trying to turn this into “I can bash your QB more than you can bash mine” and you’re willing to do a “Colts” and throw the team and the coaches under the bus to do it. There is NO WAY that what Romo did that rises to the level of stupidity that Ben did and if you threw off your blinders, you’d know that. Tony did NOT risk tens of millions of dollars and his career NOR did he put his life in jeopardy. Had that car or his bike turned the wrong way, there’d be nothing but a bloody spot on the road and a footnote in the history books about 1-Super Bowl wonders.
    I don’t know what to say except if that QBs name was Tony Romo and he handed the ball of 600+ times and was barely allowed to pass and his team won the Super Bowl despite the fact that he had set the record for the lowest QB rating by a WINNING QB, I think you’d be calling him a care taker QB and be on the other side of this conversation. Oh and that’s total baloney saying that comparing one QB to another is the same as comparing a kicker who was stupid to try to pass a blocked kick to another Super Bowl winning QB. Baltimore reined in Joe Flacco during his first two years but NOT to the extent that the Steelers did with Ben. Oh and again – DEFENSE – MUCH MORE IMPORTANT to them getting there than Ben and he would have never been in position for that tackle to mean anything if the idiots had ruled the interception as that.
    Oh and did Tomlin abandon the team last year, as well?
    No, I don’t agree at all about “But they all have been reluctant to do that because he does so often make magic by holding onto the ball, and no one wants to screw up his mojo.” because people said that if Tom Landry did the same thing to Roger Staubach in regards to his scrambling that it would do the same thing and YET, Roger became a much better player after he had one too many concussions for his taste and he stopped trying to run for a first down and he began to pass for them OR throw the ball away. Ben’s been taking some shots because he’s been doing stupid stuff like this and it’s going to catch up with him a lot sooner than you think. If he doesn’t start playing smart, you won’t be talking Hall Of Fame as much as you’re going to talk about “What could have been.” when he’s forced to retire early.

  178. edgy1957 …
    Let me grab a flashlight, pull on your ear lobe, and have a looksee inside that head of yours. Hmmmm … I just can’t see any sign of a sense of humor. Did you miss that day on the assembly line?
    I’m thinking “What did I say about Romo now?” Oh, that Simpson thing. I hear sex with her is similar to cocaine, though I’m not sure how (google it). Good grief, edgy1957, get a grip!! It was a joke! And as much as I dislike O’Donnell (mostly for his off-field behavior), do you really think I’m seriously comparing him to Yepremian? Joking!
    Now, I’m tired of discussing Ben’s motorcyle accident as evidence of his QB skills. Ben was young and used poor judgment in engaging in a perfectly legal activity (other than the expired permit) and driving in an extremely safe manner when Grandma ran him down. That’s it!
    I would never throw the Steelers under the bus, and on that you need to rein it in, edgy. Don’t mess with me on my Steelers! I’m saying now what I said at the time. Bill Cowher mailed it in. He was unhappy with his contract, unhappy with the negotiations, and mentally already gone. And it showed in his decision-making and lackluster attitude. I said that in 2006, and I’ve posted it all over PFT on stories about where Bill would end up coaching. Even posted it on CFT trying to tell someone to notch back his hero worship of Urban Meyer. So I’m not suddenly coming up with that to make a point to you. Not my style. I love Bill; I’ll always love Bill. But I lost a wee bit of respect for him that year. Was the season entirely his fault? No–but the buck stops at coach.
    You keep focusing on Ben’s performance in SBXL, which EVERYONE knows was poor. I’m focusing on how he lit us up his rookie year, convinced Bettis to stay by promising him a trip to the Big Show the next year, and delivered. He led the team on that run to the Super Bowl. Yes, bad officiating put him in the position to have to make that tackle. But he could have just stood there and whined that the game was fixed (like the Seahawks and Vikings) instead of stepping up and making a near-impossible play to keep our season alive. Yes, we had a spectacular defense. We had a spectacular defense throughout the 1990s, but no Super Bowl wins. He brought that indefinable something we’d been missing.
    His role in SBXLIII was more significant. We had several fourth-quarter wins that year–last-minute drives engineered by Ben, including the drive to win the Super Bowl. That’s leadership.
    What happened this year and whose fault was it? I’m a Tomlin believer, but YES, the buck stops at coach. Did he give up on the team? No. But he’s a young coach and made some errors in judgment. We cut our most aggressive special teams tackler in the off season. We kept an ineffective offensive line coach despite having cause to fire him. We got rid of a good corner, which showed when our star safety went down. Tomlin talked about shaking up personnel midseason, but didn’t follow through. In Polamalu’s absence, LeBeau became less aggressive with the pass rush. I could go on, but Tomlin’s a smart guy and he’s already addressing these issues.
    The one person you can’t blame is Ben. The end-of-season QB ratings put him at #5 behind Brees, Favre, Rivers, and Rodgers … ahead of Manning, Brady, Manning, and Romo.
    If you knew anything about Pittsburgh fans, you’d know the first person we roast on the spit when things go wrong is the QB. The defense is the sacred cow. But most of the fans posting here are in agreement that Ben isn’t the problem right now. The defense let us down in most of our losses this year.
    As for the comparison to Roger Doger … Staubach was a lot older than Ben when he made that change in his playing style. I expect Ben will continue to evolve as well. I have tremendous concerns about his long-term health–especially because of the injuries he suffered in the crash. He needs to make adjustments. Though he’s a bright guy, I doubt he has Staubach’s inherent intelligence. Still, I hope he’s smart enough to do what’s necessary to protect himself. And I hope Tomlin is a strong enough personality to help him realize he must learn to play smarter for his own good.
    I’m not picking on Romo, by the way. I think he’s a good QB. I just don’t think he’s going to be the next Aikman. Since that’s what the media seemed to crown him, that would make him overrated.

  179. Deb, if you see me talking about his accident as a ding on his QB skills then you need to pull the flashlight out yourself. I said that it goes toward showing his IMMATURITY (look it up) and it’s a ding on his leadership.
    Again, DID I EVER BLAME BEN for this year? You might go back and look through all of these messages to try to find evidence but I’ll save you time by saying that NO, I did NOT. The only reason why I bring up the first Super Bowl is because he was a Trent Dilfer then and had that been his only win, 20 years in the NFL would have never gotten him in the conversation for the Hall Of Fame.
    Of course, you do realize that Roger was 5 years older than Ben before he even took his first snap in the NFL. There was this little thing called Viet Nam that was occupying his time back then. Roger learned to throw the ball away and go down before he got hit and while his stats suffered, the team kept hm in the lineup. In terms of NFL years, he learned that lesson before Ben and it didn’t take away from his mojo like people thought. Also, let’s not forget that Roger, as well as Bradshaw, took more hits because his OL were hamstrung by the rules and it was basically no autopsy, no foul when a QB took a hit. If Ben doesn’t learn that lesson NOW then you can be damn sure that pictures of him on the carpet will be something that you’ll see more than you want and the worst part, it will be HIS fault but you guys will blame the OL. I know that this is heresy but I invite you to watch the Oakland Raiders to see what the worst OL in the NFL is like.
    I don’t know what media you’re talking about because unless it’s some negative media coming out of Pittsburgh that says that he’s no Aikman, there’s NO ONE, in Dallas or any where else, that has ever called him any such thing. Most people have been critical of his mistakes and everyone that’s watch him for a long time have seen a much different Romo this year. No way in hell that happens if he continues to blow in December, which went a lot ways to changing some people’s mind about his maturity and taking his game to the next level (The team went 2-2 but it wasn’t his fault that they lost those two games – 7 TD and 1 INT – as opposed to 5- 8 with 14 TD and 19 INT in the previous 3 years). Oh and you’ll note that unlike other people, I’m NOT throwing everyone else under the bus as blame for his failures. No coaches, the OL, no WR – just Tony. Think about that…

  180. edgy1957, you are going to have blood pressure issues if you don’t calm down.
    Leadership is a QB skill. So when you keep dragging that motorcycle accident into the discussion as evidence of IMMATURITY and using that to DING his leadership, then you are using it to diminish his QB skills.
    You said I threw everyone under the bus by blaming the coach for our poor showing in 06. Then you asked if I’d similarly blame Tomlin for this year. The implication was that if 06 was primarily Cowher’s fault and not Ben’s, then 09 must be Tomlin’s fault (and not Ben’s?). I’ll buy that. So I just ran through why I’d buy that and included why it wouldn’t be Ben’s fault.
    “The only reason why I bring up the first Super Bowl is because he was a Trent Dilfer then and had that been his only win, 20 years in the NFL would have never gotten him in the conversation for the Hall Of Fame.”
    Uh-huh. But Ben’s career DID NOT END AT SBXL. Bradshaw isn’t judged just for the first half of his career and the first two Super Bowls. As with Bradshaw–who is in the Hall–Ben’s career will be judged in its totality, including that game-winning drive in SBXLIII
    Um, yeah, I get the whole Viet Nam thing. That would be WHY I brought up the age difference. And Roger was a Naval Academy graduate, which is why I said he’s a bit smarter than Ben. So being older and wiser, he figured out the need to change his style. And yeah, we all know the rules have changed. But even so, Ben needs to adjust. I said all that. So what’s the problem? I criticize Ben for Ben’s mistakes. BUT we still have o-line issues that must be addressed. Sometimes there are multiple causes for a problem. This is one of those times.
    After his Pro Bowl starting season, the NATIONAL media hyped Tony Romo like a rock star and you bloody well know it. I haven’t picked on him at all. I’m just saying he’s no Aikman. He’s a good QB. If I were voting for the Hall today, three active QBs would get my vote, Favre, Brady, P. Manning. I don’t think that’s picking on Ben. He’s not quite there, but I believe he’ll get there. I don’t think Romo will finish his career in a HoF discussion. Don’t think Eli will either and he has a ring. Just going with my gut. We’ll see.

  181. Deb, leadership isn’t a QB skill. A skill would be how he throws or moves in the pocket. Leadership is more of an attribute. There are guys out that that are leaders and they don’t play QB and they’re even better leaders than their QBs. That being said, if you want to call it a skill then let’s run it up the flag pole. There are people who believe that leadership is the ability to yell at people and that’s where it stops. The fact is that this is the furthest from leadership that you can get and one of the things about leadership is thinking about the consequences of your actions BEFORE you take them. ANY FOOL can apologize AFTER they do something stupid but a real leader would never put himself in that situation. This is a guy who had a contract for tens of millions of dollars, who was not only riding a motorcycle, he was riding one without a helmet. Now, when Terry Bradshaw is telling you what you’re doing is stupid, don’t you think that you should listen to him? This is a kid who lost his mother in an automobile accident. Just what makes him think that risking his life even more made it a lot of sense. POOR LEADERSHIP. Yeah, he’s wearing a helmet (so he says) and he apologized BUT if the car or the bike had turned the wrong way during that series of events, he would have never gotten the chance to do either. As I said, ANY FOOL can apologize after.
    Look, from rookie to now, Ben has been sacked a lot AND for his first three years, his entire left side was the same and they were all either Pro-Bowlers and/or All-Pros. It’s really hard to blame the OL or the loss of the coach for his problems. Jeff George used to blame his OL bur they were better before him and after him at every stop. Again, he needs to look at the consequences of his actions: stay in the pocket and take a hit that puts you out of the game and let your backup screw it up or throw it away and live to play another down or maybe, just maybe, throw it more to the backs. It’s not pretty but it keeps you from taking a sack or losing yardage. It also has the added advantage of slowing down the rush AND getting your receivers and TEs open more because the defense is worried about the entire offense and not just the long ball.
    BTW, if you think that I’m hard on Ben, you haven’t heard what I’ve said about Romo and his OL. The one thing that they have in common is that both OLs were built for RUNNING and that doesn’t do you a lot of good in the passing game BUT it also doesn’t help when your QB holds the ball too long.
    Tony’s had his faults but he addressed a lot of them this year. In his first two years, he only had eyes for T.O. and most of his interceptions were the result of throws to T.O. when the defense knew he was throwing to him. Last year, he fell in love with Witten and teams learned that quickly. This year, he really started throwing the ball around and while Austin took over as his lead receiver, he tried to get it to everyone, including Roy Drop ‘Em Williams. I had hoped that Dallas would drop Williams and put Hurd front and center but that’s not going to happen. I think that the OL will regress if they put in a rookie at LT but the long term benefit would be worth it (and I don’t care what people think, Free should have kept playing at RT, instead of the overrated Colombo).
    The media fawning all over Romo isn’t the same as saying that they’re the next Aikman. As I said before, the next Aikman talk is from people who are saying that he ISN’T – like you.
    Now, I disagree about your picks because either you forgot about him or you don’t appreciate him but it’s only been a couple of months and you’ve already dismissed Kurt Warner. Eli, he’s WAY ahead of his brother in all respects. He’s done FAR more with FAR less as a QB. I’m not saying that he’s HOF material but it’s far too early to pick ANYONE, including Ben, at this young age. Would anyone had picked Bradshaw for a HOFer at his same stage of development — I think not. Drew Brees put himself in the conversation but after 3 seasons in San Diego, EVERYONE wanted a different QB. How about Bert Jones? He was one of the best and was building a HOF resume when he was sacked by injuries that cut his career short. Far too early to crown or dismiss the younger guys from the conversation (Also, add in the scandal factor, which could derail anyone. Yeah, it’s not supposed to work against anyone but tell that to the voters, who HAVE used it against them — BOB HAYES).

  182. edgy1957, you are a stubborn man!
    You are right, leadership is an attribute more than a skill. I think Ben’s still growing as a field general, but he’s come a long way–as evidenced by him being elected a team captain this year. I don’t even want to ask what you mean by the “so he says” regarding wearing a helmet. If he’s riding, he’s definitely wearing a helmet. But I thought he’d stopped riding after the accident. Yes, he was foolish. I have never denied that. But sometimes we all think we’re indestructible. I’ve been guilty of that myself.
    Just to clarify one thing: Ben NEVER blames his o-line for his sacks. Just the opposite. He goes out of his way to take the blame himself. And he deserves some of the blame. Yes, in his early days with the team, the line was much stronger. But I’ve sat and watched defenders barrel through that line untouched before Ben’s had a chance to get a good grip on the ball. And I’ve watched that happen multiple times. It’s frustrated me to hear Ben so quick to take blame because it’s let everyone else off the hook. We may have some personnel issues on that line but I believe the biggest problem has been in the coaching, and I think Kugler is the guy to address those issues. Beyond that, someone needs to man up and coach Ben to get rid of the ball sooner. We lost Ken Anderson as QB coach. This would be a good time to bring in someone who can address that issue.
    Now … I said if I were voting for the Hall TODAY, there are only three ACTIVE QBs who’d make my list. I didn’t include Warner because he’s no longer an active QB. I didn’t include Brees, Rivers, Ben or anyone else who might be “in the conversation” because I said if I were voting TODAY–which would mean “conversation over.” I’m not dismissing them from the conversation–just letting you know I’m not crowning Ben. I named the three active guys who are sure to be voted into the hall if they retired TODAY. And yes, I would also include the just-retired Warner.
    Fate screwed Bert Jones. Don’t know what else to say on that. Or on Bob Hayes. The scandal factor kept ESPN from naming O.J. Simpson to the top 25 college players of all time when he should have been in the top five. They should lose their sportscasting license for that, among other things.
    Okay, I’ll stop with the Aikman stuff. The national media overhyped Romo in his first season because he had a good year, he was a Cowboys QB, and he was dating Carrie Underwood and Jessica Simpson. It was annoying. But so is hearing about Reggie Bush. He hasn’t lived up to his hype either. That’s because, like Romo, he’s being overhyped for stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with football. Fortunately, Brady had already made his bones on the field before taking up with Giselle. Romo’s a good QB. I doubt he’ll ever be considered a great QB. I think Ben will be considered a HoF QB, assuming he continues to grow and mature both onfield and off.
    As for the rest of them … time will tell. I think Peyton Manning is already a HoF QB from a stats perspective. But as a Field General? Thought your comment about Unitas on the Manning legacy thread was brilliant!! Said so, too.

  183. Oh. My. Gosh.
    I cannot BELIEVE I took the time to write a long answer to this post and you guys dropped it. I am your customer, and my time is valuable. If I’m going to come to your site and write a thoughtful response to a football post, then you need to post it. Thank you.
    edgy1957 ….
    Ugh … now I have to try and recreate what I said. Yes, leadership is more an attribute than a skill. And Ben has grown in his leadership–as evidenced by his teammates electing him a captain this year. He made a foolish mistake because he was young and thought nothing would happen to him. We’ve all thought ourselves indestructible at one time or another. If he’s still riding, I have no doubt he’s wearing a helmet, but I thought he’d given up the bike after the accident. Yes, it would be better if we were wise enough not to make mistakes, but since most of us do make them, it’s good that Ben can learn from his. And you’d be surprised how few people actually do learn and genuinely apologize afterward.
    One thing that needs to be clarified about Ben: He doesn’t blame the o-line for his sacks. Just the opposite. He consistently takes the blame for his sacks and lets the o-line off the hook. He is to blame for some of the sacks. But I’ve watched many games where the defenders blew through the o-line before Ben even had a good grip on the ball. The o-line was stronger in his first couple of years and has consistently declined since Grimm left, and I’ve been frustrated by Ben’s continued insistence that it’s all his fault. That’s kept us from having to deal with the issue. Some of the problem may be with personnel, but I believe the bigger issue is coaching and that Kugler is the right person to address it. As for the part of the problem that involves Ben holding the ball too long, yes, he does need to adjust his style to a degree without changing who he is as a player. Ken Anderson retired this year, and though Ken did a good job, I’m hoping another QB coach can help Ben make those adjustments. I’m very concerned about his long-term health, not only because of what he means to the team but because I want him to have a healthy post-football life.
    Fate screwed Bert Jones, and I have no answer for that or for Bob Hayes. If people didn’t take scandal into account, O.J. Simpson would have made the top five of ESPN’s top 25 college football players rather than being omitted from the list. The braintrust at ESPN should lose their sportscasting license for that omission.
    Okay, I’ll stop with the “Romo’s no Aikman” stuff. The national media overhyped him because he had a strong first season, he was the Cowboys new best hope, and he was dating Carrie Underwood and Jessica Simpson. They overhype Reggie Bush because he’s an SC running back dating Kim Kardashian. It’s very annoying when players are over-exposed because of their off-field activities. You don’t stop to think why you keep hearing their names. You just know you’re hearing them and that their on-field play doesn’t justify all the publicity.
    My HoF list was short because it included only ACTIVE QBs who would be sure-fire HoF inductees if they retired TODAY. Warner is no longer active, but yes, he’d be on my list. Those “in the conversation” aren’t on my list because if their careers ended today, they wouldn’t make the hall.
    None of us knows what the future holds. But if they continue as they have, I believe Ben will merit Hall of Fame consideration. I don’t believe Tony will rise to that level. As for the others, it remains to be seen. Peyton will get there on stats alone like Marino. As for being a field general, well … he’s no Unitas … or Montana … or Brady.

  184. Deb, look, it’s not like he wasn’t warned: by the team, by Bradshaw AND by personal experience and YET, he chose to be foolish. I’m NOT saying that he wasn’t young and foolish but that’s NOT an excuse, especially for someone who’s actions cost HIM tens of millions and the team victories. He may have grown up AFTER but the fact of the matter is that he should have taken his actions into account BEFORE and that shows poor leadership. Like it or not, he WASN’T ignorant of the facts before the accident and people addressed the issue LONG before it became a reality.
    You continue to see things that aren’t there. Seriously, WHEN did I EVER say that BEN threw his linemen under the bus? The only one doing that is YOU. The thing is that he’s been consistently one of the worst sacked QBs and that’s from the day he entered the NFL. You can call it inexperience but by now, he should be getting rid of the ball quicker but that isn’t happening. It’s the only real criticism that I have of him right now.
    That’s a different story. ESPN is NOT the HOF so they don’t play by the same rules or do really think that the most biased journalists in sports are that fair when they talk about ANY athlete? If they don’t like a guy, they’ll bring up everything that they can (Barry Bonds) while they’ll overlook what they’ve ever done when they do (I know you don’t want to hear this but Ben’s little problem comes to mind).
    EXCEPT, Bush is an HEISMAN trophy winner and they were over-hyping him LONG before Kim came along.
    Again, NO ONE said the same thing about Terry Bradshaw. There are some people that I know that have tried to say differently but I’ve made them aware of the fact that they said quite a bit of negative things about him and the HOF wasn’t a word that they associated with him, except that maybe he would only get in if he bought a ticket. Heck, after his rookie year, the Cowboys fans wanted them to trade Troy Aikman and keep the guy who won the only game that year, Steve Walsh and Jimmy Johnson traded Walsh, instead. Jeff George was supposed to be a sure fire HOFer and yet…This is Tony Romo’s 4th season as a starter. He did more in his first 3 season as a starter than Drew Brees did and like Brees, he finally got it after 3 years.

  185. Okay … let me rephrase. It would be nice if you would post things when they’re written and not a day later after I’ve rewritten them! Thank you!
    edgy1957 …
    Do you listen to yourself? I can’t even concede points without getting an argument from you! Good grief!
    Who the heck cares why they’re overhyping Reggie Bush? They are, and the point is that I’m sick of hearing about both he and Romo but I’ll lay off Romo being the next Aikman.
    Who the heck cares about the dimwits at ESPN? My point was I’m sure sorry about Bert and Bob Hayes. Life’s not fair.
    No one EVER accused you of saying Ben was blaming his o-line. I’m not the one seeing things that aren’t there. You’ve said umpteen times that Jeff George blamed his o-line and on another thread that Peyton blames his o-line. I’m just pointing out that Ben doesn’t. End of story.
    I’ve REPEATEDLY acknowledged Ben’s need to release the ball faster. But we ALSO have o-line issues. I’m not alone in feeling this way or Tomlin wouldn’t have fired the o-line coach!! It’s not an either Ben or the o-line situation. Few things in life are either/or. It’s BOTH.
    We have beaten this motorcycle accident to death and it should have occurred to you by now that I’m not going to say uncle. He was 24, made a foolish, immature mistake, and paid dearly for it. Happens to all of us–even you. Last I looked, Terry Bradshaw is not Ben’s father and Ben’s not obligated to take Terry’s advice. Terry has made more than a few screwups in his own life. I’m not a Ben apologist–my first loyalty is to my team. But I don’t believe the accident cost us games–that’s based on my assessment of that season at the time. If he did cost us games, it wasn’t near what Brett’s idiot pass just cost the Vikes and he’s a heckuva lot older than Ben. People screw up. That’s life. This wasn’t a malicious act, and I respect how he handled it. If you don’t, well … it’s a good thing he’s not running your offense.
    As for Ben’s “problem,” you don’t want to go there with me. I’ve spent a lot of time working with rape survivors. I’ve been over every aspect of this case with a fine-tooth comb–not news reports, but the actual court filings. If I believed for one second this rape claim was genuine, I’d want his head on a platter. It’s not. That’s all I’m saying on that subject.
    I have never disagreed with you on Bradshaw, so I don’t know why you’re huffing in all caps about that. Right now the only HoF-ready QBs are the just-retired Warner, Favre, Brady, and P. Manning. I believe if his career continues as it has, Ben will be there. One more SB win like the last and he’ll definitely be there. As for Brees, time will tell. One SB win doesn’t necessarily make a HoFamer, but Peyton has it on stats. Maybe Brees will, too, before he’s finished. Although they need to rethink the stats if we go to an 18-game season. It’s anyone’s guess on the rest. But I’ll be very surprised if either Eli or Romo wind up in Canton.

  186. Deb, Ben can only HURT himself out of the HOF. He got the Trent Dilfer Super Bowl but followed it up with a Kurt Warner performance. Unless he concusses himself out of the league, the bust is already cast. Eli’s play has put himself in that conversation, as well. He may have won the Super Bowl in 2007 but his last two seasons have been the finest of his career and he’s battled problems with the receiving corp AND unlike his brother, he has the added handicap of playing outdoors for AT LEAST 10 times per season (and those games in Giants stadium are not any fun during the winter months just like Pittsburgh. During the days of the Triplets, Dallas went Emmitt Smith left; Emmitt Smith right when they played in Giants Stadium late in the season because of that).
    I also think that if McNabb were to ever win a Super Bowl, he’d get in. People say that he’s overrated but I dare ANYONE to put up those kind of numbers with the talent that he’s had over the years. It’s a shame that he’s finally got the talent at WR and they’re probably going to ship him out of town for Kolb. Personally, I welcome that because I’d rather see McNabb out of the division.

  187. Deb, you also don’t understand what I’m saying about Ben’s little problem. I’m NOT saying that he was guilty (and I can say that about several others who have been accused and proven innocent later). It is probably the ONLY time in ESPN’s history that they actually held back a story like that because of the individual. They’ve gone out there with far less on other athletes who turned out to be innocent but they made an exception for Ben. It’s one thing about innocent until proven guilty but for the most part, everyone has been guilty until proven innocent except Ben. You should spend some time on ESPN researching their “unbiased” reporting of the facts concerning the peccadilloes of some of that players. Had that been T.O., I guarantee you that ESPN runs that on their home page and they do 38 Outside The Lines reports and skewer him on Jim Rome, Around The Horn and PTI.

  188. Finally … we seem to be finding some consensus. I’m with you on McNabb. He’s shown more character dealing with more bizarre crap than any QB in the league.
    Yes, I’m concerned about Ben’s long-term health because he has the injuries from the crash on top of the on-field concussions. He needs someone to rein him in without trying to make him over. I’d like to see him with a good QB coach.
    My brother doesn’t think much of Eli and that’s influencing me because his game knowledge is extraordinary. But we don’t always agree. I’ll start watching Eli more closely. If Coughlin doesn’t turn things around, I think there’s a good chance Cowher will wind up there, so that will shake things up.
    I’ve lost sooo much respect for ESPN in the last year. I thought it was ridiculous that they didn’t report the Roethlisberger situation, although their argument was that they don’t report civil litigation, only criminal. Did they report the Irvin situation because that seems very similar and it’s also civil? Their handling of the Craig/Leach situation was ridiculous.

  189. Deb, if he won’t listen to Terry Bradshaw or Ken Anderson then I don’t know what another voice will mean to him. He’s got to pick himself off the ground and realize that there are better ways of doing this. No one but Ben will turn the corner on this and he can continue to ignore his better angels until he takes the one that ends his career. Maybe what he really needs is a reason to change his habits. A few guys that I’ve seen that had no regard for themselves turned it completely around after they got married and/or had kids. Suddenly, they realized what their actions meant to everyone else and maybe that’s the kick that he needs. Whatever it is, he needs to find a reason to get rid of the ball faster and live to pull that spectacular play when they really need it.
    Eli’s been around for 89 games. In 89 games (87 starts), he has a 50-37-0 record (plus 4-3 in the playoffs) while at the same point in his career, After 89 games (89 starts) Peyton was 49-40-0 (0-2 in the playoffs). His rating is 79.2 while Peyton’s was 87.2. He’ll never put up the kind of numbers in Coughlin’s offense that Peyton has but he will have a pretty good career.
    ESPN does what ESPN does and while they’ll occasionally find an ethical bone, they slant the story in the favor of people that they like. What really makes me laugh is when they’ll blast other networks for withholding information about a story (For example, why broadcaster A was fired) but they’ll do it themselves (In fact, they might have done it before the other network). What really bothers me is that some of those guys seem to hate the athletes so much that I wonder why they even cover sports, in the first place. It’s even funnier to hear them blast them about their big salaries when they make far more in their gig at ESPN than they did when they were working at Nebraska’s Eye On The Cornhusker Nation or whatever they did before they landed the gig at ESPN.

  190. @edgy1957 …
    When I typed that about the QB coach, I was thinking “What are the chances we could get Elway?” LOL He’s Ben’s hero–maybe Ben would listen to him. He’s stubborn all right. I definitely believe this McNulty woman is trying to take him for a ride, but from what I’ve heard, Ben can be reckless in his personal life. Some of the pro basketball players now take extreme precautions. They won’t even order room service in hotels unless two people bring it up or they have someone else with them. I’m not sure Ben is mature enough to settle down, but I hope this lawsuit has taught him the need to be more discerning in his personal life. If he uses these experiences to grow as a person–and he seems to–then he’ll continue to progress as a player.
    As for changing his play style, he’s closer to Tomlin than he was to Cowher, so Tomlin may be able to influence him where Cowher did not. He has so many positive qualities. After we lost to the Jags in the 07 playoffs, he stood to the side while Garrard gave his post-game interview and waited quietly until Garrard finished just so he could congratulate him. That’s a far cry from Peyton leaving the Super Bowl lickety-split. I know Peyton contacted Drew later, and I do think we make a little too much out of the post-game handshake stuff … but I was proud of Ben that day.
    Reading about the behind-the-scenes stuff at ESPN has really put me off. Now every time I watch them, I almost picture them in Animal House togas. That’s probably not fair, but it sounds as though they’ve created a frat-house culture that doesn’t value professionalism.
    I can say one thing for Eli … he sure gave a clutch performance in that Super Bowl. And there’s no question he was playing the best team in the league. It will be interesting to see how Peyton rallies from this loss. People are assuming he’ll be back in the Super Bowl again. I think that’s a BIG assumption. It wouldn’t surprise me if he never makes another Super Bowl.

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