All-Pro team should change to reflect the changing NFL

AP

It’s time for changes on the All-Pro team.

The Associated Press has released its annual All-Pro team, and although other organizations release their own All-Pro teams, the AP version is generally recognized as the “official” All-Pro team for the NFL. Unfortunately, that All-Pro team is flawed.

We’ve already noted the odd fact that the AP will not yet release the names of the 50 voters who put the All-Pro team together, and that some of the votes were highly questionable. But there’s a more fundamental flaw than that.

All-Pro teams have been put together for decades, and they haven’t changed to reflect the changes in the NFL. So when All-Pro voters fill out their ballots, they’re asked to name two wide receivers, two running backs, one tight end and one fullback. That’s ridiculous. In the 1940s, you would have seen two running backs and a fullback on the field together. Now, three wide receivers is the norm, and a fullback is a rarity. And yet All-Pro teams still select players like we’re in the 1940s.

That’s why Green Bay’s John Kuhn is a first-team All-Pro, even though he played in only 18 percent of the Packers’ offensive snaps this year. But Green Bay’s Jordy Nelson who had the third-most votes at wide receiver, is relegated to second-team All-Pro even though he played in 91 percent of the Packers’ offensive snaps this year. No one seriously believes that Kuhn is a better player for the Packers than Nelson is, but Kuhn gets first-team All-Pro status and Nelson doesn’t because the AP clings to the outdated system of having a fullback and two wide receivers on the All-Pro team.

A simple look at the Packers’ offense shows how silly it is to have one fullback, one tight end and two wide receivers on the All-Pro team. The Packers had three wide receivers — Nelson, Randall Cobb and Davante Adams — who played more than 70 percent of their offensive snaps. The Packers had a tight end in Andrew Quarless who played 60 percent of their offensive snaps, and another in Richard Rodgers who played 45 percent of their offensive snaps. And then there was Kuhn, who played 18 percent of their offensive snaps.

It would make more sense for AP to replace the fullback spot on the All-Pro team with a third wide receiver or a second tight end, or at least give that option to voters.

Boomer Esiason was attempting to exercise that option with his own All-Pro vote. The official All-Pro voting lists Seattle’s Marshawn Lynch as receiving one vote at fullback, and when I questioned why anyone would vote for Lynch at fullback instead of the position he actually plays — running back — I was told that Esiason cast that vote. After I questioned Esiason’s decision, he contacted me on Twitter to explain that he chose to vote for three running backs — Lynch, DeMarco Murray and Le’Veon Bell — and no fullback because he believes all three of those running backs are worthy of being All-Pros, while no fullback is worthy since fullback is basically a part-time position. Esiason said he wrote on his ballot that he was choosing Lynch in lieu of choosing a fullback, although the official vote totals still list Esiason’s vote as being for Lynch at fullback.

Although I personally don’t think there should be three running backs on an All-Pro team (I’d much prefer three wide receivers, which better reflects how NFL offenses line up), Esiason’s vote actually makes more sense than the AP’s insistence on having a fullback on the first-team All-Pro squad, even though it’s been many, many years since NFL teams used fullbacks regularly.

On defense, it would also make sense to add a fifth defensive back to the All-Pro team while removing a defensive lineman or linebacker. As currently constituted, the first-team All-Pro team includes two defensive ends, two defensive tackles, two inside linebackers, two outside linebackers, two cornerbacks and two safeties. But in today’s NFL, teams frequently have five or more defensive backs on the field, while they almost never have both four defensive linemen and four linebackers. Limiting the number of defensive backs on the All-Pro team to four shows a lack of understanding of the simple fact that NFL schemes have evolved.

Now it’s time for the All-Pro teams to evolve. The game has changed, and the All-Pro teams should change with it.

74 responses to “All-Pro team should change to reflect the changing NFL

  1. Maybe what needs to evolve is not the all pro team but the value sports fans and media place on it. Who cares? Seems to me that a more sound method of choosing the besst players is selection by peers (which the probowl team USED to be until FAN voting was stupidly added.)

    Go ahead and let the media members keep picking their own precious team. Just don’t assign any financial or media value to it and it will soon become irrelevant.

  2. I disagree with the idea that there should be 5 all-pro backs if it necessitates removing either DL or LB.

    So many teams have 4 down linemen one really can’t assume a 3-4 scheme, and yet so many teams have 4 linebackers one really can’t assume a 4-3 scheme.

    As it is there are always four DBs but not always five so I think it makes sense to leave the defensive side of the ballot at 4-4-4.

    Totally agree with the offensive side argument, but to be fair this isn’t about the Packers. It’s about all the teams and not all teams are so ripe with wideout talent that they don’t field a two-man backfield. Just as often there are two men in the backfield and no tight-end or a split-out TE “pass-catcher” in the mix.

  3. You have it right. Kuhn played about as much as I did. The fact is only about 5 teams even have a FB on the roster, says that the position should be phased out on the ballot.

    Should be a slot WR or a flex position, but not a FB.

  4. I want to point out that the AP structure reflects base offense and defense, with an 11 personnel depth chart, and tries to reflect both the 4-3 and 3-4 base chart. Best solution: clearly define positions players may be voted to (so that ends like Watt dont get losted at tackle, taking away from a guy who deserves it at that spot) add a 3rd DB, not limited to corner or safety, a 3rd receiver, and keep the fullback vote (it is a position and someone does it better than everyone else every year). The point of the AP team should be to identify the beat player(s) at each position, not “try to fit who I think had AP seasons on my ballot”.

  5. Putting Chris Harris Jr behind Sherman was a joke. Chris plays everywhere, not just one side, didn’t allow a single TD, and placed higher than anyone in all metrics. He’s also humble and a team first player. All this coming off a blown ACL to boot.

  6. Fullback, Offensive Line, and not as much anymore, Tight End and Defensive Tackle are the selfless jobs of the NFL, the jobs where their stats will never show their contribution to the team. That’s where these lists come in and tell the world who the best is, but obviously the voters have stopped looking at the game objectively, and the few that were called out for questionable votes should never have had votes in the first place.
    For example, first one that comes to mind, at the end of last year, Jimmy Graham was the “best TE in football”, but he’s a basically a WR, though he has some size to help in the run game, he’s not complete and his pass catching prowess shouldn’t have elevated him to being that great.

  7. “Seems to me that a more sound method of choosing the best players is selection by peers (which the probowl team USED to be until FAN voting was stupidly added.)”

    Absolutely. Pro Bowl voting included…it’s all gone downhill since fans were able to make it a popularity contest.

  8. let’s quit whining about this issue.
    the bigger, more important issue is:
    anyone who thinks Joe Thomas or Maurkice Pouncey had a good season, just wasn’t watching football.

  9. The most glaring atrocity is denying “true” outside linebackers amassing 100+ tackles a season like Lavonte David and DeAndre Levy All-Pro status over situational pass rush specialists like Elvis Dumervil who only have 20 tackles in a season. Sacks should not be the measuring stick for great linebacker play.

    Essentially, there would an All-Pro vote for both 4-3 and 3-4 outside linebackers. While your at it NFL, make this kind of vote happen for the Pro Bowl, too; because if anything has changed the most over “decades” in the NFL, it’s how these two defensive schemes have converged with half the teams in the league implement one or the other.

  10. Add slot receiver and nickle back even if you don’t take away a position. Those are vitally important jobs.
    Throw them in like punt returners, as a specialty position, if necessary.

  11. Teams that don’t employ a FB do so because they run offenses that don’t use one not because they can’t find one. The fullback position is a dinosaur and even the Packers rarely line up needing one. Rather then waste a roster spot teams employ a second tightend who can block called an H back.

  12. They should just rename the all pro team the Minnesota Vikings since our starters are so much better than the rest of the league.

    The purple people eaters are the best! It says so on my jammies!

  13. Since they didn’t have an issue with fudging the defense by having 12 players, there’s no reason they can’t just add a 3rd receiver on offense. It looks stupid to have 12 on one side and 11 on the other.

  14. The AP All-Pro system certainly is outdated and flawed, which reminds me of the NFL’s outdated, flawed 8-division format, which allows an inferior team from a weak division advance to the playoffs nearly every year.

    It’s time for the NFL to re-align to a 4-division format, with 8 teams in each division. This will allow the best 6 teams from each conference to advance to the playoffs.

    The Philadelphia Eagles should be in the playoffs, not the Carolina Panthers. And the Panthers certainly shouldn’t be hosting a playoff game with a losing record.

    It’s time for the NFL to review a lot of things.

  15. Kuhn making AP has nothing to do with Nelson not making AP. Kuhn was voted in as a fullback. Nelson missed the cut as a receiver. If you want to make a case that Nelson should be in, then argue to expand the AP roster to three receivers.

  16. Football is the ultimate team sport. The All-Pro designation is for the best players at each position. As long as there are players who play those positions, they should be recognized for being, the best.

  17. “It would make more sense for AP to replace the fullback spot on the All-Pro team with a third wide receiver or a second tight end, or at least give that option to voters.”

    I understand the thinking, but what do you do with a FB like Marcel Reece?

  18. @orakle44 says…”All Pro teams don’t mean anything”. Take a look at players contracts if you think they don’t mean anything. There are, literally, millions of dollars riding on the AP all-pro selections every year due to bonuses, etc. You ought to educate yourself a little more.

  19. Since teams have 53 players and 46 dress for any given game, why not expand the offensive and defensive rosters for All Pro? Subtract the punter and place kicker, punt returner and kick returner, and you have 42 players. Generally speaking, half are defense and half are offense. The team should then have:
    1 – QB
    3 – RB
    1 – FB
    3 – TE
    4 – WR
    2 – Slot R
    2 – T
    2 – G
    1 – C
    2 – Gunners

    Except for long snappers, that pretty much defines anyone who may be lined up on any given play. We have no idea who the good long snappers are; just the bad ones.

  20. No. Shut up. If anything, they should reduce the WR slots to just one and increase FB to two. Stop trying to further dilute the physical game of football into the pathetic Star Wars offense finesse disgrace it’s eroded into today. Last season there were 2, maybe 3 teams physical enough to compete with the bruisers of the 80s and 90s .

    Mike Alstott, Mack Strong, Lorenzo Neal, Larry Csonka, Greg Jones, etc are all metaphorically rolling in their graves at this post. Fullbacks are people too.

  21. Three wide receivers is not the norm. Two wide receivers is the norm and a new position, slot receiver, ought to be recognized as a different position for all-pro and franchise tag purposes. I’ll cast my vote there for Julian Edelman.

  22. Having a FB on the team reminds us old guys of when football was football and not a track meet.

  23. If you want reflect modern NFL teams, players line ups change from one play to the next. One play is 2 WR, next is 3 WR. Fullback is used some plays, some plays not. Some defenses are 4-3 others are 3-4.

    Why pick onky 11 offensive & 11 defensive? You can name 3 WR + a fullback. Defense, you can vote 4 DT + 4 LB. Go ahead name 12-13 offensive players and 12-13 defensive players.

    You won’t be breaking any laws.

  24. Does anyone much other than the players and the people voting actually care about this any more ?

  25. ProFootballRealignment says:
    Jan 3, 2015 8:53 AM

    It’s time for the NFL to re-align to a 4-division format, with 8 teams in each division. This will allow the best 6 teams from each conference to advance to the playoffs.

    The Philadelphia Eagles should be in the playoffs, not the Carolina Panthers. And the Panthers certainly shouldn’t be hosting a playoff game with a losing record.

    It’s time for the NFL to review a lot of things.
    =================================
    Stop whining. The NFL places a premium on winning a division. Two other teams get rewarded for having the best record among non-division winners. You can’t make a case that the Eagles, who lost at home to Washington in week 16, deserve to be a wild card team. Getting rid of the current division set up would also eliminate home and home rivalries that the NFL and its fans love.

  26. Who cares about power rankings, pro bowls and all-pro any more? People just want their team to win on Sunday but the media wants clicks, ratings, and papers sold. They claim its what the fans want but I’d say we’ve gradually lost interest in these discussions. I’m sure players like to see their efforts recognized but they know the best way to be recognized is with their contracts.

  27. How they should vote for All Pro 1st Team

    Defense

    WR
    WR
    TE
    T
    G
    C
    GT
    TE
    QB
    RB
    RB
    WR

    Defense

    DE
    DT
    DT
    DE
    LB
    LB
    LB
    LB
    CB
    CB
    SS
    FS
    CB

    K
    P

    KR
    PR

    As noted, most teams are using 3 CBs and 3 Receivers. It’s silly to not reflect a modern Defense and Offense in the All Pro ratings.

  28. Nelson is 2013 denvers Eric decker. Put Nelson on the Jets and they’d have the same stats. On no planet is he better than beckham.

  29. Wow first no Rodgers now no Kuhns Michael? You are wearing your anti Packer sentiment on your sleeve. Still won’t make them any less formidable on the field.

  30. Additionally, it is almost impossible for a 4-3 OLB to make the All Pro team not the Pro Bowl because they’re not asked to be pass rushers and can’t compete with the top 3-4 OLBs who generate lots of sacks.

  31. If you want to get rid of FB because of the percentage of plays they get, then get rid of K and P too. And you should probably get rid of one Defensive Lineman or LB because the base defense for most teams is nickle. Add in another DB.

    Last time I looked the All Pro team is made up of players who are voted the best at their positions. Since a guy like Kuhn plays a position that has been devalued doesn’t change the fact that nearly, if not all teams have a FB.

    Maybe the biggest travesty is voting for Vinatieri as the pro-bowl kicker. He only kicks FGs and doesn’t KO, he kicks over half the time in domes in perfect “weather”. How does he deserve to be all-pro?

  32. …..who cares about this all-pro stuff….I’d rather have rule changes that allow for a challenge on everything and anything…the way it should be

  33. Eric Decker had one good year…..Nelson has been killing it for more than half a decade. Not saying he’s the best there is but comparing him to the only other white receiver isn’t cool.

  34. voting on defense should be generic with the following limitations…3 or 4 def linemaen, 3 or 4 LBs, 4 or 5 Def backs, as long as its only 11 in total….

  35. Essentially, Florio, what you’re trying to say is….make the All-Pro like the Pro-Bowl selection.

    The WHOLE point of being “ALL-PRO” is it is inherently more prestigious BECAUSE OF fewer available positions.

    Truth is Bruce Miller and not Kuhn should’ve been the AP at FB.

  36. Just expand the numbers a bit without removing a position just because you don’t like it. Your argument is no better than Aikman’s omission of a punter. It does not need to add up to 11 on either side of the ball and your defensive example shows 12 players. Add a 2 special teams players and a long snapper. Have a total of 2 QB, 4 WR, 1 slot receiver, 2 TE, 6 LB, 4 CB, 2 safety, 2 RB, 1 FB, 3 DT, 4 DE and 1 slot for each of the 5 OL positions K, P, KR, PR.

  37. As for the Pro Bowl and All Pro voting — who cares?

    If they want the best players for those — let the players (only) vote for them. The only rule would be you can’t vote for anyone on your own team.

    Even if the players screw it up, it’s okay because they would have no one to blame but themselves.

  38. They’ve been trying to get it right since pro football began. I remember in the 1940s in the old AAFC. Frankie Albert was a sensational little left-handed QB for the 49ers who first introduced the T-formation to pro football. Frankie is also credited with creating the “bootleg” play and was considered the greatest left-handed QB of all-time. Steve Young may not agree. In 1948, Frankie was awarded co-MVP of the AAFC along with Otto Graham who was named the 1st team All-Pro QB. Facing a dilemma where they didn’t want the league’s co-MVP to be 2nd string All-Pro, they simply named Frankie 1st string All-Pro at RB, a position he never played as a pro.

  39. Only Sherman cats about being referred to add All Pro Cornerback. After the fact Carpenter got a vote, maybe he’ll realize these are political awards none the less.

  40. The All Pro team should be a 3 way vote, The Fans, The Players and the Coaches. Top vote getters are The All Probowl team. And eliminate the Probowl Game, it’s a joke.

  41. I’m shocked. Off with their heads!

    Easy solution really. Get rid of the AP voting altogether and let got to a fans vote like baseball or let a large group of analyst/writers/coaches who know the players do the selection based on modern day lineups.

    If you think about it there are a lot of guys playing. Why not two of each position for first team and two of each position for second team. Thus, you would have two QB’s make first team and another two make second team and that’s about right. 4 guys that stand out.

  42. Thee ONLY reason Kuhn even made the team was to block for Rogers on certain plays. He is rarely given the ball. His role is minimal at best and if they would have cut him they could have used one of their 5 tight ends for that role.
    He is a fan favorite and the team is afraid to piss them off by cutting the guy.

  43. Just let the referees pick the team. They are down on the field with the players and can see first hand who the best players are. Then we can all hate the refs (we love them now). But seriously, these guys are the best people to judge, and they’re not biased. They should gather all the refs in a room at the end of the year and have an open discussion and come out the room with the All Pro team. Same thing they should do in baseball. Let the umpires pick. Writers do way too much listening and not enough watching. That’s because they don’t know the game well enough to trust their own opinion, so they rely on second hand knowledge. These teams are irrelevant for the most part.

  44. Same with the pro bowl. Instead of having outside linebackers and defense of tackles and ends regardless of the-base defenses listed, it should be past rushers and defensive lineman.

    The best three or four from those groups and then everything will be settled.

  45. Was it sports writers that changed the definition of fullback?

    Aren’t they usually only half the distance from the line of scrimmage as the running back, so they could be called halfbacks?

    Why aren’t some players called blocking backs?

    Half backs began flanking out they became flankers. The two syllable term flanker is more concise than slot receiver.

  46. Although I personally don’t think there should be three running backs on an All-Pro team (I’d much prefer three wide receivers, which better reflects how NFL offenses line up)

    Spoken like the kind of fan the NFL now caters to.

  47. Why does the All-Pro team need to be limited to “only” 11 players?

    Oh. It’s not. (Look at the defense. 4 Dlineman, 4 Linebackers)

    So why not have a FB, in addition to a 3rd WR, since most teams run at least 3 WRs the majority of snaps?

    And why not have a “slot” cornerback also listed?

    That would make 12 players on offense, and 13 players on defense.

    It doesn’t have to be a team of 11. So let’s recognize all of the positions that the majority of teams “start”.

  48. gergie1957 says:
    Jan 3, 2015 10:45 AM
    The All Pro team should be a 3 way vote, The Fans, The Players and the Coaches. Top vote getters are The All Probowl team. And eliminate the Probowl Game, it’s a joke.
    ~~~~~~~
    The fans and players are just as clueless/biased as the reporters. Just have every head coach, offensive/defensive/special teams coordinator vote without allowing a vote for their own players. Nobody else. These guys watch the most tape and actually have to game plan around players. The vote would be balanced out with less chance of legacy or hype votes and the most deserving would win the honors.

  49. immafubared says:
    Jan 3, 2015 11:00 AM

    Thee ONLY reason Kuhn even made the team was to block for Rogers on certain plays. He is rarely given the ball. His role is minimal at best and if they would have cut him they could have used one of their 5 tight ends for that role.
    He is a fan favorite and the team is afraid to piss them off by cutting the guy

    Yet he makes the pro bowl and all pro but he really provides nothing. His peers (the guys that actually play against him) obviously see a different side to the player with his talent that you obviously miss while watching your console tv from the couch downstairs.

    Just another butt hurt Viking troll who is mad no one measured up on that dismal franchise. After 10 1st rounders Spieladope is bound to hit on one soon.

  50. This isn’t the MVP award. It’s who had the best year offensively. With that said I think we can narrow it down to the league leading rusher in Demarco Murray and the 2014 league best passer in Rodgers. Hard to get noticed as a WR unless you really make a splash as far as touchdowns and yards go. My vote would go to Aaron Rodgers this year

  51. You know, they aren’t actually playing any games with the “all-pro” team. You know that, right?

    Who cares? I don’t know any fans who care about the “all-pro” designation. It’s media fodder.

    Let the unsung fullback get his name on something. I’m sure Jordy Nelson isn’t losing any sleep over it.

  52. Just because a fullback isnt used significantly today doesnt mean it wont be in the future. Or, another unforseen change making a different position more or less important. So, I disagree that everytime rules are changed to give (unjustified) dominance to one side of the game or position that the voting needs to change with it. If that were the case (based on today’s mindset to do everything to help the passing offense), then in 10-15 years they will have just have 10 Qb’s, 20 WR’s, 0 RB…that’s it…no other positions needed (stupid but true).

  53. After thinking about this the problem with the solution the article poses is this: All-Pro rosters are not supposed to be made up of the 11-12 best offensive and defensive players. To propose Nelson deserves to be in more than Kuhn ignores this fact.

    If they were the 11-12 best players they’d likely be mostly QBs, WRs, pass-rushers and CBs.

    Rather, the All-Pro roster is supposed to reflect the best players at every position. There are 12 defensive slots available to reflect the reality that many teams are 3-4 and many are 4-3 in their base defense. In either case there remain 4 spots for DBs.

    On offense maybe it makes sense to add a 12th “flex” position that could be “pass-catcher” or “slot-receiver” or “No. 3” but to say FB doesn’t exist is false. Some players play that position full time and one player plays it better than anyone else.

    To say that the best FB in football is an All-Pro and the fourth best wideout in the game is not is hardly unfair, either. and it doesn’t mean the FB is a better football player. The FB benefits from playing a marginal position exceptionally well, like an All-pro kicker, punter or long-snapper.

  54. I have never taken “All-Pro” titles seriously, but I agree the AP should change its lineup to suit the current NFL.

    Rather than delete a position on offense, I would add 1 RB, 1 WR and 1 TE to “1st team” and “2nd team” status. Some teams DO still employ a FB, and saluting their contribution, while also recognizing another RB, seems appropriate. With 3 WR sets and 2 TE packages increasingly common, adding another of each also is appropriate without taking anything away.

    Likewise on defense, keep the status quo and simply add a flex DB position to each.

    Seems simple to me, which means the neanderthals in the AP will never do it.

  55. muslimponder says: Jan 3, 2015 9:15 AM

    No. Shut up. If anything, they should reduce the WR slots to just one and increase FB to two. Stop trying to further dilute the physical game of football into the pathetic Star Wars offense finesse disgrace it’s eroded into today. Last season there were 2, maybe 3 teams physical enough to compete with the bruisers of the 80s and 90s .

    Mike Alstott, Mack Strong, Lorenzo Neal, Larry Csonka, Greg Jones, etc are all metaphorically rolling in their graves at this post. Fullbacks are people too.

    ————————

    Given that Alstott really wasn’t even a FB for the last half of his career and just lined up as a big RB, your choice of including him to indicate FBs are needed on the roster is too funny.

    That said, they could easily add a 3rd WR and 3rd CB to the list, just like they have two RBs and a FB instead of just one of each.

  56. There’s no way this can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.

    I think the Israeli’s and Palestinians will be friends before NFL fans can agree on Pro Bowl voting.

  57. All Pro and Pro Bowl selections are for contractual bonuses for the players and something else for the media to complain about. Nothing more.

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