Louisiana “stand your ground” law looms over Will Smith killing

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As the lawyers for Will Smith’s family and Cardell Hayes, who shot and killed Will Smith on April 9, engage in dueling press conferences aimed at selling sharply conflicting narratives to the potential jury pool, it’s now clear why the lawyers are saying the things they’ve said.

Louisiana has a “stand your ground” law. Passed a year after Florida became in 2005 the first state to remove the duty of retreat before using deadly force when faced with deadly force, the comments from John Fuller, who represents Hayes, have been directed at showing that Hayes committed a “justifiable homicide” within the confines of the Louisiana law. And the comments from Peter Thomson, who represents Will Smith’s family, have been directed at showing that Hayes did not have justification.

Under Louisiana law, “A homicide is justifiable . . . [w]hen committed in self-defense by one who reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of losing his life or receiving great bodily harm and that the killing is necessary to save himself from that danger.” And here’s the key, as it relates to the decision of Cardell Hayes to shoot Will Smith: “A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is in a place where he or she has a right to be shall have no duty to retreat before using deadly force as provided for in this Section, and may stand his or her ground and meet force with force.”

That’s why Fuller claims that a witness saw Will Smith with a gun. It’s also why Thomson has insisted that Smith’s gun never left his vehicle.

Ultimately, the question of whether Hayes was justified in the use of deadly force turns on who the aggressor was. Here’s the relevant Louisiana law: “A person who is the aggressor or who brings on a difficulty cannot claim the right of self-defense unless he withdraws from the conflict in good faith and in such a manner that his adversary knows or should know that he desires to withdraw and discontinue the conflict.”

That’s precisely why Fuller ended his Sunday press conference with this line: “I can tell you that my client was not the aggressor in terms of the behavior that happened after the accident.” It’s also why Thomson suggested that the dispute over Hayes ramming his Hummer into the back of Smith’s Mercedes SUV had become resolved before Hayes fired his first shot. This wrinkle apparently is aimed at proving that even if Smith was the aggressor, he withdrew from the conflict before Hayes decided to start shooting.

Speaking of proof, the prosecution likely will have an obligation to disprove the “stand your ground” defense beyond a reasonable doubt, making it even harder to obtain a murder conviction — especially if the contents of a cell phone video from before the shooting in any way undermine the notion that Hayes was the clear aggressor.

Regardless of how it plays out, it should now be clear that Hayes has a very viable defense, even though he reportedly shot Smith seven times in the back. It could be so viable that Hayes is ultimately not even indicted. In 2012, for example, a Louisiana grand jury decided that 21-year-old Byron Thomas should not be prosecuted for killing 15-year-old Jamonta Miles, a passenger in a vehicle that was driving away from Thomas.

60 responses to “Louisiana “stand your ground” law looms over Will Smith killing

  1. This is an immense tragedy but will prove to be a very interesting court case. The shooter was in some ways the aggressor because he chased down Smith after the hit and run and GOT OUT of his vehicle. Yet, the evidence will probably show that Smith was intoxicated and had made the threat of going to his car to get that loaded gun. I do not think this is a slam dunk case by any means.

  2. Stand your ground, or hunt and chase?
    One gun owner is dead, the other is likely headed for prison. Aren’t guns wonderful! Grow up boys. I used to play with guns when I was a little boy too.

  3. The unintended consequences of poorly written, well meaning laws.

    I am not going to make a blanket statement that Stand Your Ground is a bad law, but when the wording is such that a guy can get shot 7 times in the back, there is something wrong with the law. For the sake of argument, lets assume Hayes was justified in using force, is it reasonable to think he should have stopped firing his weapon after 2 shots? 3 shots? At what point does it shift from lowering the threat level to execution? And how is he justified in shooting the wife? Did she take a swing at him? Sadly, I’m betting the shots were fired because of her. Hayes’ lawyer keeps hinting at an aggressor, but not saying who. Is it possible she got out to calm Smith, and after calming him, Hayes was able to get her to blow her top and get physical with him, opening the door to shoot her, and thus shoot her husband who was no doubt going to defend his wife?

    Perhaps Smith was dead from the first shot and everything after is irrelevant, but once he went down, there was no need to keep shooting. It is clear that Hayes is the type of guy that isn’t shooting anyone to stop them, once he decided to shoot, his decision was to finish the job.

    What I really want to know is, what happened after? There were 4 people in Smith’s car (including him), and 2 more people in the Impala that were with Smith’s “group”. And there was a passenger in Hayes’ car. So that is 8 people. What were all of those people doing after the shooting??? We know Smith wasn’t doing anything, and his wife was definitely not doing anything because her femur shattered, but the others? Were they in a stand off with Hayes? Was it, “I’m going to lower my gun, but if any of you make a move I’m going to start shooting again”? Was it just silence? Were they just standing there in a stare down? That must have been the longest 10 minutes ever, standing there, just feet from the guy that just executed your friend, wondering if he was done or if he was going to keep going…

    I would LOVE to know if Mr Hayes’ passenger is one of the people that was filming the altercation. And if so, what is on that video…

  4. Smith gets shot 7 times in the back and the defense is justifiable homicide? Sometimes I really wonder what the heck is going on in this country.

  5. To me ramming the back of smiths vehicle removes this defense as that makes Hayes the aggressor and instigator of this conflict. Withdrawing would have required him to in some way attempt to leave the scene. Why did Hayes have his gun on him in the first place? I doubt if smithwas the aggressor and posed a threat Hayes would have had time to get his gun out of his car and then fire 8 shots, 7 to smiths back without smith getting a shot off.

    To be honest this sounds and looks like Hayes set this up from the beginning. He slammed on the breaks to get smith to rearend him and then planned on killing him while claiming self defense and stand your ground. Police better be tearing his life apart to find the truth.

  6. What I can’t get over here, and I’m guessing a jury will have a hard time with as well:

    -Smith was shot 8 times. That is hardly “standing your ground” when the other guy didn’t even get off a single shot.

    -Smith’s passenger was shot twice as well.

    -It is hard for me to imagine Smith as the aggressor if he was sitting in his car, while his shooter is standing outside. Maybe they were both out of their vehicles, but I’ve gotten the impression Smith was shot in the car, making it hard for me to view him as the aggressor.

  7. Louisiana “stand your ground” law looms
    ===========================
    That’s all we need is another Zimmerman case

  8. “A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is in a place where he or she has a right to be shall have no duty to retreat before using deadly force as provided for in this Section, and may stand his or her ground and meet force with force.”

    I would think once you intentionally ram a car from behind, you are engaged in an illegal activity. That said, that’s just common sense and common sense and the law are frequently at odds with each other.

  9. You left a crucial detail out…

    …Smith’s wife.

    Unless she got out of the car with her husband to become “aggressors,” then she would have had to have been in their car when she was shot. If that’s the case, the implication is Hayes would have also needed to have been at and shot into the Smith’s car to shoot her…making HIM the aggressor.

    Looking at those possibilities, has it ever come up that she was outside the car?

  10. Ya I’m feeling that self defense is not a real valid defense when you shot home in the back, repeatedly, and also shot his wife twice.

    But, in all fairness I wasn’t there, I try not to engage in teenage hijinks

  11. You have got to be freaking kidding me. These crazy laws aren’t supposed to protect the overagressive instigators, especially those who should not even possess a gun in the first place! Congrats NRA, high five.

  12. Now matter what the outcome, of this tradgedy is, one has to feel sorry for the fact that a man died over a fender bender and now 3 children are fatherless for life and his wife (who was also shot) is a widow. When will this stupidity with guns end?

  13. Should “Stand Your Ground” come into play when the attacker shoots the guy once in the chest at close range,and SEVEN times in the back? Shoot the wife twice for good measure? Guns in the hands of the mentally ill = disaster. If it was applied on a case by case basis,maybe it would make a little sense. The gun problem will never be solved in this country because sick people who buy them can look and act perfectly sane when making the purchase.

  14. No matter what happened, it’s just a good thing everyone had guns on them, otherwise a fistfight could have broken out, and that’s how people get hurt. Oh, wait…

  15. Why are you shooting Will Smith 8 times and then shooting his wife two more times? Admittedly I’ve never been in this type of situation before, but if you are in a self defense situation to which you feel so threatened you are going to shoot someone with a .45 caliber pistol, your goal should not be pumping out a full clip into someone.

  16. No stand your ground law is going to protect you when you shoot someone in the back unless they are in your house.

    This man has no shot. He’s guilty of murder, and he’ll be going to jail.

  17. Wait a second…you mean if we are patient and wait for actual facts we get a better picture of what really happened? Thats not much fun… I like it better when everybody just rushes to judgement and grabs the torches and pitchforks…

  18. I think not. What I do think is that, as usual, liberals will use this as an opportunity to attack pro- 2nd amendment rights. Also, the sun rises in the east.

    That’s all. You Watch. If Smith was shot in the back 7 times, Hayes will be convicted. End of story.

    I’ll bet Smith wishes he could have gotten to his gun.

  19. IF Hayes walks not-guilty due to this law, then expect many more shootings and deaths, similar to this event to occur!

    Oh that dude was riding my ass, I’m gonna follow him until he parks and then I’m gonna instigate but not be an aggressor in order to get a rise of that driver. And when that driver raises his or her voice, I have every RIGHT to STAND MY GROUND and kill that person.

    C’mon LA

  20. Well, yeeha! Let’s turn the USA into Dodge City circa 1870, slap leather and pump whomever we want full of lead.

    Stand Your Ground law is just another example of the NRA exerting its influence into our lives. If you are defending your home from an attacker, maybe. But a fender bender that results in these guys pulling iron and then for good measure, I’ll shoot the unarmed wife. Really?

  21. uglynora says:
    Apr 14, 2016 8:48 AM

    “A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is in a place where he or she has a right to be shall have no duty to retreat before using deadly force as provided for in this Section, and may stand his or her ground and meet force with force.”

    I would think once you intentionally ram a car from behind, you are engaged in an illegal activity. That said, that’s just common sense and common sense and the law are frequently at odds with each other.
    ———————————————————————-

    Agree but I read posts that when Smith rear ended Hayes it’s because Hayes “brake checked” causing the accident. This is ridiculous because it’s not illegal to stop your car but is illegal to follow to close and/or at a speed too fast for conditions.

    Once Smith drove around Hayes and left the scene may come into play. Smith had a duty to stop at the scene and opted not to. Doesn’t matter if he felt there was no damage. His not engaging Hayes at that point is an issue. Not sure what, if any, affect this will have on Hayes then rear ending Smith thus invalidating the stand your ground justification.

  22. I don’t think they will convict him. I read a witness account who stated Will Smith told Hayes he had a gun. Hayes replied he had one too, drew it and opened fire. His lawyer is going to explain to the jury that Hayes shot Smith once in the front and then in the back to prevent him from reaching his weapon which was found loaded in the vehicle.

  23. Stand your ground would work, if the guy only shot him the one time in the chest, but the 7 more times in the back is a whole other story

  24. someone above said, “Once Smith drove around Hayes and left the scene may come into play. Smith had a duty to stop at the scene and opted not to. Doesn’t matter if he felt there was no damage. His not engaging Hayes at that point is an issue. Not sure what, if any, affect this will have on Hayes then rear ending Smith thus invalidating the stand your ground justification.”

    To which I say, Hayes has NO RIGHT to take the law into his own hands! He’s hold have called the cops! INSTEAD – He took the law into his own hands and even worse – Hayes wasn’t trying to arrest Smith – NO – He was intent on killing him as evident by EIGHT GUNSHOTS.

  25. If ramming Smiths vehicle was not lawful, and that action brought him to the ground he stood, doesnt that invalidate the defense? Also if the gun was not registered that would be unlawful too.

  26. Regardless of either side’s story there are only a few hard facts that are undisputed:

    1) Hayes had a weapon in his immediate control.

    2) Smith was shot 8 times total, 7 in his back.

    Stand your ground law states force to be met with force. Smith had his back to Hayes. What force or threat does a man facing the opposite direction of you really pose while you have a gun on your person? I think he will have a very hard time trying to convincing 1/4 of a jury in Orleans Parish that he was not the aggressor or that Smith could be seen as such a threat that he needed to be killed.

  27. reports have said a bunch of things, but a few of them are key to this defense

    both had declared they had guns and both were outside their vehicles then Smith supposedly turned to get something out of his vehicle while his wife was sitting in the passenger seat, and Smith was found partway in the drivers door slumped over the steering, so the defense will say

    – Hayes thought that he was going for a gun, so he shot Smith
    – because Smith was in the drivers door going for a weapon, is why he got shot in the back, and his wife, being directly the other side of Smith, incidentally got hit
    – Hayes was in a public street and clearly had a right to be there
    – Smith said he had a gun and turned to get it which created a reasonable fear
    – Hayes was not in the commission of a crime, so he had a right to defend himself

    it’s a pretty strong case for self defense unless an eyewitness has a strong contradictory piece of evidence

    a lot of people have made much of 7-8 shots being too much, generally in real gun fights, police (who practice all the time) only hit their intended target about 15% of the time, so the common wisdom is to keep on shooting until you are sure… so the idea that 7 shots is excessive is very much in error for people trained in firearms, out of 7, you would expect to get an average of one hit

  28. Who thinks these crazy Laws up? Do they consider ‘common sense’ as a baseline? SMH….

    There’s nothing crazy about this law when applied like it was meant to. But like anything else, a dirt bag’s lawyer will try to use whatever he can to get his client off a murder rap. Doesn’t surprise me that so many sheep out there just can’t comprehend this.

  29. Here we go again.
    The bleeding hearts on this page are all for eliminating the constitution which GUARANTEES them the right to speak their mind.

    All I have to say is if you don’t like it, it is a free country and you can leave at any time.

  30. The ‘stand your ground’ law only applies to legal, law-abiding gun owners who properly register their firearms. The criminal was a FELON who obtained the firearm ILLEGALLY, so the law does NOT apply in this scenario.

    Class dismissed.

  31. due to the laws being vague, who are you to determine its being applied as it was meant to be? if it doesn’t apply in this situation then law makers should have put that into the law… otherwise it 100% applies. the dirtbags are the law makers who made the law vague, and they had reasons for doing that…

    mack2x says:
    Apr 14, 2016 10:06 AM

    Who thinks these crazy Laws up? Do they consider ‘common sense’ as a baseline? SMH….

    There’s nothing crazy about this law when applied like it was meant to. But like anything else, a dirt bag’s lawyer will try to use whatever he can to get his client off a murder rap. Doesn’t surprise me that so many sheep out there just can’t comprehend this.

  32. Hopefully the fact that Hayes rammed Smith’s car AND was illegally in possesion of the gun is sufficient to put him away for life. Both crimes are evidence of premeditation. The man is a punk and there is no reason for him to ever be let free.

  33. marcinhouston says:
    Apr 14, 2016 9:56 AM

    If ramming Smiths vehicle was not lawful, and that action brought him to the ground he stood, doesnt that invalidate the defense? Also if the gun was not registered that would be unlawful too.
    ===========================

    If Hayes’ gun was illegally possessed or obtained, he would have been engaged in an illegal act. This poorly written “stand your ground” law is exactly what happens when lawmakers/government runs out of control. The “spirit of the law” was not designed to protect killers, but the “letter of the law” is doing just that…I suppose, you can basically gun anyone down on the street and say, I thought they had a gun…and get off…ridiculous.

  34. Don’t blame the law, it’s fine. If Hayes is the aggressor, he’s guilty.

    Now blame the lawyers and jury if they can’t reasonably figure out who is the aggressor.

  35. I’d like to make a couple points.

    1) The one shot in the “chest” was actually his side (left lateral chest), not the front of his chest, so he was not facing Hayes at any point during the shooting.

    2) Smith was near the driver door, either out of the door or in the car or reaching in the car. If Hayes was not the aggressor, why was he out of his car, with gun in hand, in Will Smith’s face near the driver door of Smith’s vehicle? If Smith was leaning in his car to retrieve his gun, Hayes had time to run back to his car and exit the scene. Instead, he opened fire.

  36. This was a setup “accident” designed by Hayes ( who co-owns a wrecker service ) to scam an unsuspecting driver of a Mercedes SUV ( Smith ).

    In New Orleans multiple videos are being leaked to the press that show Smith’s SUV never actually hit Hayes’ H2 in the rear, as Smith’s Mercedes had the accident avoidance system popular in that vehicle’s line. Still, Hayes pulled over thinking he has “cashed in” only to have Will Smith drive around him and leave the scene of an obvious setup “accident”.

    Hayes them followed Smith for three blocks, slamming into him so hard that the back window of the Mercedes SUV shattered and shoved the Mercedes SUV into the car in front of him. Both men got out of their cars and exchanged words, with Smith’s wife Raquel calming him down and encouraging him back to his own car until the police showed up.

    Hayes, meanwhile, came out of his vehicle with his own ( unregistered ) gun in hand, walked up to the Smith vehicle and shot Raquel twice ( once in each leg ), then emptied eight shots into Will Smith ( seven in the back and one into his die torso ). Once he finished shooting, he stood over Smith’s body and let out a yell at the top of his lungs ( witnessed by two of my neighbors, as I live two blocks from the scene …and yes, they are on the witness list).

    Does this sound like “stand your ground”? It appears like a staged accident gone wrong…which led up to a murder committed by a punk with arrests for illegal weapons twice, with at least one conviction for same.

    Will Smith was beloved in New Orleans…not only for being on the Super Bowl winning team or the Pro Bowl selection, but for being active in the community through his association with the “Son of a Saint” program which mentors boys who have lost their fathers through street violence.

    Hayes attorney is attempting to try his case in the public to generate some reasonable doubt….but there is no doubt that Cardell Hayes is a worthless piece of crap who back shot a great athlete, father, and pillar of our community.

  37. This is why people hate lawyers. Only a lawyer would try to make this about a stand your ground law, and if this law weren’t on the books in LA, Will Smith would still be dead. Don’t blame a well intentioned law meant to allow innocent people the opportunity to protect their life, blame the murderer that chased down, rammed with a vehicle and then shot another man 7 times IN THE BACK.

  38. dadsource says:

    The ‘stand your ground’ law only applies to legal, law-abiding gun owners who properly register their firearms. The criminal was a FELON who obtained the firearm ILLEGALLY, so the law does NOT apply in this scenario

    —————————————————————–

    registration of a firearm is not required in LA, and AFAIK the only places it’s required is in Chicago and DC…..

    as far as him being a felon in possession of a firearm, I haven’t seen that report, if true, and if actually against the law for that specific felony in LA, then yeah, the defense goes away

    as far as the “7 shots is an execution” people, considering a person with a gun who is still able to lift an arm could kill you, anybody thinking straight would keep shooting until they were sure they wouldn’t get shot themselves

  39. Additionally, Raquel was standing next to the driver’s side door of the Smith vehicle calming her husband and was shot first…once in each leg. Then Hayes unloaded his weapon…into Will Smith’s back.

    Tomorrow the Saints will have a memorial “visitation” at Saints camp on Airline Drive….followed by a city wide second line from the lower garden district ( Irish Channel ) to the Treme. Locals show come out early to honor Will Smith…and to show solidarity against this punk Hayes and his shyster attorney.

  40. “jklecko77hof says: I’ll bet Smith wishes he could have gotten to his gun.”

    Smith doesn’t wish anything. He’s dead. From a gunshot.

    However, before he died, more than wishing he could get to his own gun, he probably wished that Hayes didn’t have a gun. That variable would’ve served Smith and his wife much better.

  41. “collectordude says: Here we go again.
    The bleeding hearts on this page are all for eliminating the constitution which GUARANTEES them the right to speak their mind.”

    Who here has said anything at all like that? I haven’t seen it.

  42. stanmarshmorelikestandarsh says:
    Apr 14, 2016 9:24 AM
    There sure are a lot of 2nd amendment-hating beta males on here today.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Must not be much of an Alpha if you need a gun to show you’re in charge, buddy.

  43. I love how not thinking murder by way of a lethal weapon is an acceptable solution to an altercation over a fender bender makes you a “beta male.” I don’t care it’s some NFL sized guy, fight with your hands like a man, or shut up and move along. I don’t have a problem with the guns as much as I have a problem with people not fighting like men. You are not a man if you produce a weapon, that only means you’re scared of being beaten up, and that’s soft as baby food.

  44. Also it helps to read the article that the person wrote:

    In 2012, for example, a Louisiana grand jury decided that 21-year-old Byron Thomas should not be prosecuted for killing 15-year-old Jamonta Miles, a passenger in a vehicle that was driving away from Thomas.

    Do you get that? Someone shoots into a fleeing car! A car that was moving WAY from them! AWAY kind of like having your back turned but even less of a threat as they are in a car.

    They weren’t even prosecuted.

  45. “Also if the gun was not registered that would be unlawful too.”

    As a general statement of truth, guns are not “registered” in America. It’s a very crucial point, to those of us who care about such things.

    I own a bunch of guns. All were acquired and possessed legally; none are registered.

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