Could lasers and chips help spot the ball? NFL is skeptical

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On Monday night, the Texans appeared to be robbed of a first down by a bad spot on back-to-back plays, a pivotal turning point in their loss to the Raiders. And dozens of games every year see key plays turn on whether the ball is spotted a few inches one way or the other. So is there any way the NFL could use technology to improve the spotting of footballs?

NFL Senior V.P. of Officiating Dean Blandino said the league has considered using chips in balls and lasers to spot the football. But he pointed out that even if you could tell instantly exactly where the ball was in relation to the line — as you can in tennis — that wouldn’t necessarily tell you the other things you need to know, like whether the ball carrier’s knee was down before the ball crossed the line, or whether he had been touched by an opponent before he went down.

“There’s certainly new technology we can explore,” Blandino said on NFL Network. “We just have to be careful with these technologies because it’s not as simple as the football being at a certain spot. When was the elbow down? When was the knee down? You have multiple things we have to look at. In tennis it’s the ball on the line. There is no other factor. So you just have to look at the new technologies and does it make sense for our game, and that’s something that we’ll continue to explore as we move forward.”

Regarding the calls that went against the Texans, Blandino said those are always calls that will be hard for replay to overturn conclusively.

“These line to gain plays are very difficult in replay. If you don’t have a shot looking right down the line, it’s really tough unless it’s obvious,” Blandino said. “Remember, the yellow line to gain marker is just a guideline. . . . It’s just a marker, we can’t make a decision based on it. . . . The ruling on the field is that he was short. Nothing we can do to change it in replay.”

That explanation won’t satisfy the Texans. Perhaps some day technology will eliminate controversies like Monday night’s, but that day is many years away.

64 responses to “Could lasers and chips help spot the ball? NFL is skeptical

  1. “We just have to be careful with these technologies because we don’t want to take away the ability of officials to throw games” Blindino said.

  2. “We just have to be careful with these technologies because we don’t want to take away the ability of officials to throw games”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    If lasers can spot a tennis ball to 1/8 of an inch at 140 mph, I think the technology has been here for a while, Don’t you?

  3. Lasers are accurate to within thousands of an inch. Compare that to 100-year-old sticks and chains with part-time grandpas tripping over them running out on the field. Kind of like flying a balloon versus a 747. Both will get you there, but one is just a bit more advanced. Maybe we should campaign to bring back leather helmets and that rugby looking ball from the good ole days.

    joetoronto said it best.

  4. You need to account for the entire ball. Putting a chip in one end or both ends won’t do anything when they argue “I was holding the ball sideways”.

    You could coat the entire ball in something that can be tracked, but that material might then be used on a player’s gloves to finagle whatever tracking method is used.

    These are just the most obvious road-blocks that can be come up with, without any specialization in the field. There are probably a host of others.

  5. . If you don’t have a shot looking right down the line, it’s really tough unless it’s obvious,” Blandino said.

    ——-

    Huh, if only a future hall of fame coach had proposed this not only to have it struck down by the “competition” committee.

  6. I partially agree with Blandino, but this reinforces what Florio was saying yesterday. Have video officials make the original call, instead of having the on-field ref “guess” at the call, and then see if they overturn it. Like Blandino says, there are multiple things to look at. If a video ref looked at the Texans 3rd down mark, he would have told the on-field refs where to correctly spot it. This would take literally 3 seconds, and they could have gotten it right. So by watching the play in slow motion from a couple angles, the original call could be much more accurate. Lots of refs seem very reluctant to overturn the original “guess”. Nobody is asking for perfect, but we expect the best effort. We can live with errors, but we don’t like the idea that someone might be controlling the outcome of games. That idea will cause many to click the off button.

  7. “that wouldn’t necessarily tell you the other things you need to know, like whether the ball carrier’s knee was down before the ball crossed the line, or whether he had been touched by an opponent before he went down.”

    Which is why you use the chip technology in conjunction with the human element. There would be no issue during replays for a ref to stop the tape as soon as a knee/elbow hits the ground and to know exactly where the football should be spotted.

    You don’t need to be precise on every play. Just when a spot is obviously bad, and can change a game.

  8. My Bucs almost got screwed by a bad spot on Sunday. It was spotted EASILY a yard and a half short of where it should have been. Maybe closer to two yards. It was so egregious that it was actually reversed on replay, which almost never happens with spots.

  9. Thanks for keeping this discussion going MDS.

    Hire officials who are fit and fast enough to keep up with the game. Don’t have officiating teams. Assign games based on merit (i.e. the rotund side judge from Monday doesn’t get a game for a few weeks). If an official is doing a bad job, tell him to improve. My boss tells me if I mess up.

    Regarding Mexico, love the country and the people. Hate the field and playing conditions. Players and fans deserve better.

  10. RegisHawk says:
    Nov 23, 2016 6:36 AM

    You need to account for the entire ball. Putting a chip in one end or both ends won’t do anything when they argue “I was holding the ball sideways”.
    _________
    So you put a chip in each end and a computer can calculate if the ball — even if held sideways — crossed.

    Your problem-solving skills are so bad I have to ask, do you work for the Government?

  11. Tennis’s genius is that they use animation to reveal what the answer is. The audience thus believes they got it right. A real video of the event would often let fair people disagree.

  12. To solve the isuue of the ball being held in different posistions, put a sensor on all higest or most outer points of the ball so no matter how it’s held the furthest downfield point of the ball will be tracked.

    To solve the issue of when knee or elbow down issue sync. the ball positioning sensor (BPS) with cameras to a precise game clock. Mark the precise time the elbow or knee is down then input that exact time into the the BPS to determine exact location of the ball at the time the player was down.

    To solve the issue of the deterorating watchability of the NFL replace the comisioner with one whose not in the owner’s back pockets. Find a person who has the knowledge to run the league along w/ the integrity to not become the owner’s little bitch. It’s the same principal (besides the knowledge part) that got Trump elected.

  13. The reality is that they are trying to make this game too perfect. As a Bills fan, I have been on the other side of many “tough calls”. Because it is my team, I say that they got screwed. When it is Miami, I say good call, lol. Look no further than homerun throwback.
    The reality is the best way to ensure more partial refs is to hold them accountable for bad call, if only to ensure that they are being more partial.

    A qb does not get the chance to redo a bad pass, it is part of the human error that makes these “games of chance”.

  14. You need to account for the entire ball. Putting a chip in one end or both ends won’t do anything when they argue “I was holding the ball sideways”.
    ———————————————————————–

    Actually this is false. Just like the chips worn in the shoulder pad, having two chips on either side of the ball will allow you to track rotation and orientation and therefore you would know exactly which part of the ball would be further down the field. You can’t think of the chips as independent pieces they work together as a system to determine location.

    But, this still doesn’t solve the issue of knowing what which point in time the runner was actually ‘down.’

  15. How can a chip in the ball tell you when the knew or elbow or hip or anything touches the ground. A chip in the ball can’t tell you when a toe or heal touches out of bounds. Chips in the ball will do nothing but slow the game down. Enough with technology. Play the damn game and stop bitching about calls. Every team gets calls for and against some are no good some are great. Live with it.

  16. Examples of things the NFL has been skeptical about:

    (01) That the 1950 Cleveland Browns, formerly of the AAFC pro league, could compete in their very first NFL game against the two-time NFL Champion Philadelphia Eagles. Result: the Browns smoked the Eagles 35-10, on their way to the NFL Championship.

    (02) That the AFL was any kind of meaningful threat to the venerable NFL. Result: Within a decade, the AFL and NFL merged, after the AFL’s representatives won what later came to be known as the Super Bowl (New York Jets for the 1968 season; the Kansas City Chiefs for the 1969 season; the AFL/AFC representatives would go on to win the Super Bowl every year through the 1980 season, aside from the two Super Bowls Dallas won during that span).

    (03) The prevailing trend of NFL coaches is to go for a 1-point conversion, even though the kick is now much less of a gimme (I believe it’s the equivalent of a 33 yard field goal, only with one third of the points at stake). Result: most NFL coaches haven’t figured it out yet, but the expected return of going for the 2-point conversion is clearly higher than going for the 1-point conversion. Florio has this figured out; Coach Tomlin has this figured out; I surmise that Coach Belichick will zero in on this a bit – especially given his double-TE weaponry and his HOF QB; and a number of us have too, but the Coaches still play it conservative – likely not wanting to be burned in effigy if they don’t make the two.

    (04) The NFL was initially skeptical about broadcasting “Football Follies.” Result: the NFL was wrong. Very very very wrong. The Football Follies were instantaneously an enormous hit.

  17. Chips in balls would have also made it harder for the NFL to provide misleading PSI data, and stopped the NFL stealing K-balls at the Pats-Colts AFCCG and falsely blaming the Pats all in order to present a fake narrative of not just dry data but that the Pats were caught red handedly messing about with balls on the sidelines.

    Btw, still no release of the league’s 2015 PSI analysis, and still no penalty for the Colts carrying and using ball needles at that game or for their balls being “deflated”, and still no penalty for Aaron Rodgers’ admission of a long running scheme to play with improperly inflated balls.

  18. I do not see how the chip wouldn’t be helpful. And these refs Roger trots out there need all the help they can get. They are pathetic, ruining football for the fans.

  19. Of course goal line technology / out of bounds tech works. Its already been developed for soccer and is in use in some places with that.

    The reason the league is “skeptical” is that taking the refs and human element out prevents the league from manipulating the games and scores as we all see them doing.

  20. They’re skeptical about anything that will hinder their chances at throwing a game in their favor.

  21. “You need to account for the entire ball. Putting a chip in one end or both ends won’t do anything when they argue “I was holding the ball sideways”. ”

    It’s really not that complicated. Just need the chips position on the field & orientation of the ball.

    A football is a defined shape, so software can calculate distance of the chip to the edges of the ball. The chip goes in the center, a gyro will be able to determine orientation (like your smartphone). With all the money the NFL has (if they really want to) they could probably knock this out in a week or two.

  22. Hey Deano – I’d imagine you can pause both the replay at the exact time the player is down and then gather the data from the chip/laser from that exact moment. How does this clown have the job he does?

    Does anyone know if he made any comments about the Patterson on Bradford penalty and the following Diggs personal foul? Both of those were unreal. Shocked Arians didn’t have a full blown heart attack on the field. Get well, coach!

  23. Just watch how they spot the ball. Most the time its off. If you watch usually they look across the field to a guy that’s 50 yards away to get the spot. The spot on the 4th down play was probably better than 3/4th of the spots during the game, it just happened to be on a big play.

  24. There are a lot of variables, shape of ball etc. AND computers neeeever fail right? I’m not for it.

    This is one for the trekkies and nerds who think we are all going to be flying around in personal auto-piloted jetson mobile’s in 10 years, self driving cars will work on mass scale and that hoverboards hover.

    We do have limits, and we do have real problems to dedicate technology to.

  25. If that were the case the raiders would be 3rd in their division and the Texans would currently have the 2 seed. But we need Vegas to get excited about their upcoming franchise, unlike LA and their Rams.

  26. mototax says:
    Nov 23, 2016 7:40 AM
    Thanks for keeping this discussion going MDS.

    Hire officials who are fit and fast enough to keep up with the game.

    So how do you explain bad calls when the ref is within 2 feet of the play?

  27. A football is a defined shape, so software can calculate distance of the chip to the edges of the ball. The chip goes in the center, a gyro will be able to determine orientation (like your smartphone). With all the money the NFL has (if they really want to) they could probably knock this out in a week or two.

    …except when the chip has been moved around inside the football because it came loose as a result of being jostled

    …or the air pressure has changed, so the shape and dimensions of the ball have changed as well

    …or the fact of having something that holds the chip in a specific spot inside the football affects the QB’s grip, etc.

  28. “If lasers can spot a tennis ball to 1/8 of an inch at 140 mph, I think the technology has been here for a while, Don’t you?”

    =====================================

    OK, where did anybody say anything about the technology not being mature enough?

    The POINT was that regardless of how EXACT you can measure where the ball made it to in relation to the line the HARD part is determining WHEN the knee or elbow was down.

    R-E-A-D. Instead of constantly doing the “Everyone who runs the NFL and officiates is an idiot” routine…

  29. streetyson says:
    Nov 23, 2016 8:30 AM
    Chips in balls would have also made it harder for the NFL to provide misleading PSI data, and stopped the NFL stealing K-balls at the Pats-Colts AFCCG and falsely blaming the Pats all in order to present a fake narrative of not just dry data but that the Pats were caught red handedly messing about with balls on the sidelines.

    Btw, still no release of the league’s 2015 PSI analysis, and still no penalty for the Colts carrying and using ball needles at that game or for their balls being “deflated”, and still no penalty for Aaron Rodgers’ admission of a long running scheme to play with improperly inflated balls.

    Agreed but if memory serves the ball stealing official was also at the previous game vs Baltimore. That episode gave the minions of Goodell what they needed to begin the frame up. After Brady uttered the words “read the rule book” the sting was on.

    There’s so much more to this story that we will likely never hear of. There’s plenty of proof that the D’Qwell Jackson never told anyone the ball he intercepted was soft. That was the false narrative they used to start the sting process. There’s also plenty of evidence that the NFL had planned to measure PSI at halftime of the AFCCG despite their claims was this wasn’t a sting.

    It is not now nor was it ever about PSI.

  30. Kids, kids. We’re taking the charm out of the game with incessant game-slowing replays so let’s slow the game down even further. No wonder ratings have gone down.

  31. Lemmy Aksyadis says:
    Nov 23, 2016 9:28 AM
    mototax says:
    Nov 23, 2016 7:40 AM
    Thanks for keeping this discussion going MDS.

    Hire officials who are fit and fast enough to keep up with the game.

    So how do you explain bad calls when the ref is within 2 feet of the play?
    – – – –
    You left out this part of my post that addresses bad officiating: “Assign games based on merit (i.e. the rotund side judge from Monday doesn’t get a game for a few weeks). If an official is doing a bad job, tell him to improve. My boss tells me if I mess up.”

    In other words, bad officiating is rewarded with no game assignments hence loss of pay!

  32. gpete1962 says:
    Nov 23, 2016 5:53 AM
    “We just have to be careful with these technologies because we don’t want to take away the ability of officials to throw games”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    If lasers can spot a tennis ball to 1/8 of an inch at 140 mph, I think the technology has been here for a while, Don’t you?

    ———–
    No, because unlike in tennis, it is also relevant at what point a player is considered “down”….. Tracking the location of the ball is only half the equation.

  33. I get that you still wouldn’t know when the ball carier was touched down by the opponent but using this technology could give you a time stamp as to when the ball crossed the line to gain or the goal line. Then it’s as simple as comparing that time to the time the runner is officially down which can be determined by the current replay system in the majority of situations.

  34. Thank God Blandino and the NFL aren’t running anything that is actually important to society.

    “There’s certainly new technology we can explore,” Blandino said, referring to the new weapons systems. “We just have to be careful with these technologies because it’s not as simple as the laser-guided missile being at a certain spot.”

    Being too stupid to use new technology is a long-held tradition in the NFL and the MLB.

  35. The question is, is the NFL willing to test and invest in technologies. The NFL does not race to embrace technology, period. Technologies exist today that can address all of Blandino’s concerns, to include telling exactly when a players knee is down and exactly where the ball was located regardless of the camera angle or what it shows. Video is but one technology, and it is very limited and outmoded. If the NFL WANTED to be a modern product, it could fund an R&D effort and within perhaps two seasons be outfitted that sensor packages that eliminate virtually all of the guesswork from ball spotting officiating. We can do amazing things with sensors today. The question is does the NFL have any incentive to try and pull its product into the 21st century, and does it actually want to spend any money when it clearly feels it doesn’t have to.

  36. All the required technology exists and has been used in other fields. We daily keep up with New Horizons which has travelled over 3 billion miles from earth so far. CGI is used in the film industry for every major animation movie of the last decade plus. E-fabric is used in all sorts of clothing technology to precisely monitor variables such as orientation, location in space, pressure + hundreds of other variables. So chips in footballs are not required. The bladder can be electronic circuits printed with all the necessary technology to tell you when and where any part of the ball was located regardless of inflation pressure, temperature, wet or dry etc. And football uniform materials are available to do the same ie what touched first, elbow, knee, laces of the football etc.
    But NFL spends money on color rush uniforms instead. And since the available technology can instantly tell you when ball pressure is below or above limits, the NFL won’t hear of it. And as the same technology can record impact pressure, twist acceleration and a host of other concussion variables, again NFL won’t go down that road.
    Yes computers fail. That’s why redundancy is built in to critical systems.
    No excuses. But also no NFL desire.

  37. LEDs and fiber optics incorporated into FieldTurf fields — I want an actually “yellow line” first down marker that everyone can see, including those in the stadium. Adjust that to where the ball is spotted, and you can have it set *exactly* 10 yards from the original line of scrimmage. Or adjust penalties exactly, etc.

  38. for starters, they should get rid of sticks and chains and use a laser for the ten yard markers. I’m sure they can come up with a way to keep track of first downs.

  39. Umm….yeah….even though technology has existed for decades which would make goal line calls 100% accurate, NFL execs don’t really have a handle on this whole ‘science thing’. They’re still trying to wrap their minds around the Ideal Gas Law.

  40. Whoa Whoa Whoa….SLOW down…we are still trying to get the Executives through Grade 9 Science Class, and now your throwing Lasers and embedded Chips into the equations. ONE thing at a time fellas….OK Roger and Troy, now we try again…this is what happens to Air pressure when it’s hot, and now if we make it cold what happens??

  41. I’m just spitballing here, but could you not also place sensors on the players’ knees and elbows, then cross-reference the data to determine the correct spot? Unfortunately, I think the NFL has a well-deserved reputation as being technologically backwards and otherwise behind the times on many other issues.

  42. I’d be a lot more interested in attaching biosensors to Alex Smith’s head during a game, to determine if there is actual brain activity happening.

  43. rfahey22 says:
    Nov 23, 2016 1:28 PM
    I’m just spitballing here, but could you not also place sensors on the players’ knees and elbows, then cross-reference the data to determine the correct spot?
    ========================
    You’re not spitballing. The technology exists. And I’ll tell you when the NFL will start using it. When one of their marketing guys is told the same technology will be able to differentiate between a grossly overpriced Jersey bought at the NFL store and a reasonably priced knock off from China as the fans walk through the gates, the NFL will be all over it.
    Until then, forget it.

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