Do 201 wins and four Super Bowl trophies make Tom Brady the best ever?

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Patriots quarterback Tom Brady now has more wins than any other quarterback in league history. He has an many Super Bowl wins as anyone, matching Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw with four. Brady also has played in six Super Bowls — and he’d have five or six rings if it wasn’t for Eli Manning.

So do these ingredients make Brady the best quarterback of all time?

It’s impossible to tell Brady’s story without mentioning #DeflateGate, a trumped-up charge with insufficient proof (in the view of many, including me) of cheating in connection with the 2014 AFC title game and zero consideration of the broader cultural realities regarding potential liberties taken with air pressure or the league’s failure to pay any serious attention to the issue until a handful of league employees concluded they had a tiger by the tail without considering how tire pressure reacts when the temperature is in the teens.

Spygate arguably has more of an impact on how Brady is remembered because: (1) #DeflateGate is a red herring; and (2) he benefited directly from ill-gotten advance knowledge of the defensive plays. But that was nearly a decade ago, and Brady has been as good if not better since then.

Ultimately, the court of public opinion a/k/a those who choose to respond to this poll will have the final say. It’s tempting to think he needs one more Super Bowl win to become the one — but consider this: Even without a fifth Super Bowl title, who else would it be?

329 responses to “Do 201 wins and four Super Bowl trophies make Tom Brady the best ever?

  1. “He has an many Super Bowl wins as anyone, matching Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw with four” – Not true.

    As a QB, this is true, but Charles Haley has five and I still think he qualifies as an “Anyone”

  2. No but only because of the cheating and tainted legacy. If it hadn’t been for all the cheating and scandals, there’s really no telling how great he’d be. It is a shame really.

  3. I’m a Niners fan, and a huge Montana fan, and I’ll be the first to say it; Tom Brady IS the best ever, and it’s not even debatable anymore.

  4. A no vote is a vote for an NFL contrived scandal that ended up with ZERO proof. A no vote is a vote for promoting the false narrative that ANY spygate information helped him win any games. So go ahead haters. We drink your tears of hatred.

  5. Trolls and homers aside, no one can really say who the “best” QB in the nfl over its entire history is. No one has been around that long for one and the game and the role of the QB has changed over time.

    He is one of the few that is on MT. Everest and clearly the best of his generation.

  6. Montana did it with serious style points, that’s what separates Montana from everyone else, he made it look so easy.

  7. Yes, but don’t tell him until he retires. He plays better with that “late-round draft choice” chip on his shoulder he’s been using as incentive all these years.

  8. Well he’s not the worst. Probably the best – tho Bart Starr does have more championships than him and he routinely gets slighted when people start those “Top 5 QB” type lists.

    I don’t understand the desire to rank them – just enjoy what you’re seeing.

    Good football on a well coached team – that’s not hard to like.

  9. It’s his position to lose but since he’s still playing so he still has the opportunity & motivation to go the Barry Bonds route and ruin his legacy

  10. Its hard to say. Is he a hall of famer, yes. Is he the greatest ever? Maybe. What happens if he goes to another team like Peyton did. Does he go and dominate there? Does he make players around him better? Does he carry the team? They were 3-1 without him this season. The season that he went down for a full year they went 11-5 and missed the playoffs only due to a tie breaker and a fluke 11-5 season by the dolphins.

  11. He’s the greatest QB of all-time and it’s not even that close. A 5th ring would just be a cherry on top.

    While you chose to focus on media-enhanced faux scandals which were a direct result of the Twitter/Facebook/24/7 opinion era that none of his competitors for this title had to endure, you forgot to mention:

    – Salary cap era
    – Free agency era
    – Never had Jerry Rice or a Hall of Fame defense
    – Has played in at least the AFC Championship Game in 10 of his full 14 years as a starter (insane – only years he didn’t make it were 02, 05, 09, and 10)

    Haters are gonna hate because there is so much heartache in Brady’s wake of dominance over the course of nearly 2 decades, but he is the Greatest of All-Time.

  12. people are going to vote no because he is a very unlikable guy from a very unlikable team with a very unlikable coach (at least to anyone outside of the greater Boston area). He is undoubtedly one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, but to say any single player is the greatest (besides Jerry Rice) is a difficult thing to do without factoring in the era and the game around them.

    Brady has been the best in the passer era, where it is a lot easier to pass the ball than ever before (defenseless receiver, qb protection etc). But when you look at guys like Marino who achieved the yards he did in a more run heavy era, and Montana and Bradshaw who have 4 super bowl wins too, but no losses.

    What I’m trying to say is, yes Brady is the best right now, but you can’t truly define the best ever as the game changes. And this is coming from a guy who can’t stand Brady

  13. Montana never LOST a super bowl. And he played in an era that allowed defenders to actually HIT the quarterback. Brady has lost the big game twice and I won’t even mention the rest of his long sorted story.

    If I had to win tomoworr or lose everything, no way I take anyone other than Joe Montana under centre.

  14. I’d say “no” for 2 reasons…

    1) spygate (the bulk of his legacy (3 of his SB’s) occured while this cheating was happening)

    2. His team has virtually the exact same win percentage with him and without him over the course of 20 games they played without him during his career.

    Great QB on a Great Team with a Great coach… I think he was part of a GREAT equation.

  15. Heck yeah it does!!!

    I put him up there with the other all time greats like Lance Armstrong, Mark Mcguire, Sammy Sosa, Bill Belichick, and Marion Jones! Just to name a few.

  16. And for anyone considering the “Jerry Rice” debate… he was a great player but also caught passes from QBs that made him great.

    Don’t forget, Joe won BEFORE #80 arrived.

  17. Rings are a team accomplishments especially in a system like the Patriots’. I would not use SB rings as a criteria to judge Brady’s greatness. We have to look at other criteria. Elway for example had all the physical tools, great arm, mobility, 4th quarter heroics, and carried awful teams to the SB. Montana had poise and ice in his veins when big game was on the line, Manning was his own offensive coordinator on the field, Marino could throw, what about Brady? What’s he bringing to the table? Team stats? No, Brady is not the greatest even if the Patriots win several more rings. He plays in a system so great, a high school QB can have success in it.

  18. Comparing players from different eras is dicey. But Bart Starr has five world titles and no allegations of wrongdoing.
    I’ve never seen a QB will a team to victory more than Starr did in the Ice Bowl vs. Dallas.

  19. Hard to tell among the different eras, but if I were down to my last drive and needed to go the length of the field, I would not be heartbroken to have Brady and Montana to choose from.

    If you can’t make a good argument for him being the best ever, you are missing a lot of good football.

  20. Part of me wants to say yes…

    But it kind of annoys me that he is only 2x First Team All-Pro (2007 and 2010, same years he was MVP) and 1x second team. That’s the individual accolade that means the most to me (I dont care for pro bowls). It’s basically the best that year.

    As reference Peyton Manning has 7x first team and 3x second team and Aaron Rodgers matches Brady with 2x First Team All-Pro, 1x Second team and 2x MVP.

    I think Brady is undoubtedly part of a better run organization than either Manning or Rodgers, but individually I don’t know if he is better or not…

  21. In the end this is a subjective question and many will say that he is the best ever, but seeing the stellar performance of Jimmy G (also the way Matt Cassel performed while in NE uniform) is a testament to the true genius behind NE’s success: BB. I am not saying that TB is not the best ever, but I am just pointing out that a big part of Brady’s success is his ability to have played alongside the best coach (and perhaps coaching staff) ever. NE has clearly a solid balanced team in all three facets of the game: Offense, defense, and special teams, that is the main reason why they are SB contenders every year.

  22. To those who say it’s debatable, well it is debatable because it is being debated. And while the majority of people would conclude Brady is the GOAT. All I know is I got to watch Bradshaw, Montana and Brady. Special moments by all of them.

    Now let’s get back to a real debate. Is Joe Flacco “elite”?

  23. He is the best of the salary cap and FA era, no doubt about that. It’s impossible to know what Montana might have done playing now without the benefit of DeBartolo’s check book and no true FA just as it’s impossible to know what Brady might have done with it. What would Brady have been like with Montana’s supporting cast and Bill Walsh but had to play against the D’s Montana faced? Would Montana have made Deion Branch a SB MVP if he played for Belichick’s team? One thing we can discount is the whole ‘Brady played in the patty cake era’ crap. He won 3 SB’s before the league got wussified by Goodell/Polian/Manning.

    All that is just comparing Brady to the other greatest QB of the SB era never mind the greats that played in the 50+ before that. And that comes from a Pats fan going back to before anyone heard of Foxborough.

  24. No question that he is one of the greatest QBs of all time. However, playing for the greatest coach of all time makes it much more difficult to determine how much of it was Brady vs. how much of it was Belicheck.

  25. This conversation is over.

    He is The Undisputed Greatest NFL Quarterback Of All Time!

    From the competitiveness to the humbleness.
    From the work ethic to the leadership.

    No QB compares.

  26. Its not even up for debate anymore. You can make a case that he is the greatest football player ever. Brady or Rice or Reggie White. Dont think you can go wrong with either one.

  27. truthfactory says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:38 PM
    I’d say “no” for 2 reasons…

    1) spygate (the bulk of his legacy (3 of his SB’s) occured while this cheating was happening)

    How can people like you still say this. The filming that went on in the Spygate case was perfectly legal in 2001, 2003 and 2004. Give it up you are making yourself look stupid.

  28. Rings are a TEAM accomplishment. Stats are individual accomplishments.

    Look at the team’s winning % when Brady doesn’t play. It’s virtually the same as when he does.

    He’s the greatest SYSTEM QB of all time. Congrats, Chowdaheads.

  29. He is undoubtably the best to ever play but I do believe coaching had a hand in that. Ppl are quick to point out the scandals as if no other QB had a checkered past. Elway for instance has never won a super bowl without cheating the salary cap. We live in a time where social media and such bring to light a lot that remained hidden in the past. I’d be willing to bet Montana has his share of skeletons still stashed away.

  30. Brady is a great quarterback who is stained as someone who may have cheated because he plays for the patriots. Sad but true his legacy is tarnished to many outside of NE.

    does he care probably not but the cloud will hang on him and his crooked coach/owner forever.

  31. The best by far. Oh yeah, he’s not done yet. By the time he hangs them up he’ll have the passing yards and TDs records too. The poll is saying 75% yes by the way. So there’s that

  32. Actually a steady diet of jets, dolphins and bills twice a year with cleveland, san francisco have anlot to do with it. Back in the day montana was dealing with the rams, cowboys, giants, redskins teams that were good every year. Brady’s rival was manning and manning beat him in championship games more times than brady won. Rest of afc has stunk for 20 years

  33. nt
    scoops1 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:25 PM
    the # of wins a QB can be a misleading……

    very overrated stat!!!
    ———————-
    Good point if it were not for he also has the best winning percentage as well.

  34. Tom Brady has: 2 first team All-Pro, 1 second team All-Pro.
    Aaron Rodgers has: 2 first team All-Pro, 1 second team All-Pro.
    Peyton Manning has: 7 first team All-Pro, 3 second team All-Pro.
    I’d say professional football writers nationwide have declared the winner.

  35. The people saying you can’t compare the top guys from different era’s are on to something to a degree. You can compare what guys from different eras did in relation to their contemporaries and Brady has dominated his era in a way (winning %) that neither Montana or Starr dominated theirs. The folks talking about ‘the system/team’ the ‘cheating’ or ‘it’s Belichick’ are making fools of themselves. Steve Young won a SB and went to the HOF after replacing Montana. The Niners ‘cheated’ too, it was just called “gamesmanship” then. Starr didn’t win any championships without Lombardi.

    Who is the greatest of the 3? Does it matter? There’s room for more than head on Mt Rushmore.

  36. redislander10 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:50 PM

    No question that he is one of the greatest QBs of all time. However, playing for the greatest coach of all time makes it much more difficult to determine how much of it was Brady vs. how much of it was Belicheck.
    ————————–

    I haven’t seen a whole lot of Patriots games, but I don’t recall ever hearing about, or seeing Belichick out there playing quarterback.

  37. Don’t forget Joe Montana was unlucky in terms of staying healthy over his career unlike Brady has been. If not for Leonard Marshall, Montana would have 5 rings

  38. jnovi86 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:36 PM

    people are going to vote no because he is a very unlikable guy from a very unlikable team with a very unlikable coach (at least to anyone outside of the greater Boston area). He is undoubtedly one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, but to say any single player is the greatest (besides Jerry Rice) is a difficult thing to do without factoring in the era and the game around them.

    Brady has been the best in the passer era, where it is a lot easier to pass the ball than ever before (defenseless receiver, qb protection etc). But when you look at guys like Marino who achieved the yards he did in a more run heavy era, and Montana and Bradshaw who have 4 super bowl wins too, but no losses.

    What I’m trying to say is, yes Brady is the best right now, but you can’t truly define the best ever as the game changes. And this is coming from a guy who can’t stand Brady
    ===================

    How exactly is Brady an “unlikable” guy? I wouldn’t call him “exciting” but he certainly seems like a decent guy. Team first, never, ever, ever says the wrong thing, very humble and praises his teammates, always deflects any accolades, how is that unlikable?

    And to say his Super Bowl losses hurt his legacy when he’s made it to more Super Bowls than any QB in history is just weird. Would you prefer Brady went 4-0 but obviously went to fewer Super Bowls? I would say any Super Bowl appearance is better than no Super Bowl appearance. You have to beat the best in your conference just to make it that far which is hard to do. And Brady’s done it more than any one else. You can argue who the best of all time is, but Brady’s Super Bowl appearances only bolster his legacy.

  39. Joe Montana is the GOAT. He had only 9 years on a contender and won 4 Super Bows. Brady’s had 15 years and he’s only matched Montana’s Super Bowls. Montana actually won his Super Bowls and didn’t need the Tuck Rule or the opposing coach to call the worst play of all time. Montana played against all time great teams, the 80s Bears, Redskins, and Giants. Brady’s never played a team that good. As well, Montana had a 129 Super Bowl rating, never throwing an interception. Even comparing Brady’s 4 best Super Bowls he’s less than 100.

  40. I’m not getting into the debate… Not worth the energy… I know how I feel & im just fine with that…. Blessed to have witness his greatness since he entered the league & the guys still going!!
    Thanks Tom!!!!

  41. Tom Brady is the BEST QB I’ve watched in 10+ years – the 02 season was really the ONLY bad one he’s ever had & 9-7 ain’t that bad. In 08 he blew his knee, so that don’t count!
    It’s a shame Marino couldn’t get JUST one SB ring & I’ll continue to blame THAT on Don Shula & that hack of a
    DC Tom Olivadotty!!

  42. Montana took an also ran at the end of his career to the playoffs. Put brady on the jets and guess what….. no difference

  43. Considering the fact that when Brady is out, the Patriots have gone 14-4, absolutely not.

  44. redislander10 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:50 PM

    No question that he is one of the greatest QBs of all time. However, playing for the greatest coach of all time makes it much more difficult to determine how much of it was Brady vs. how much of it was Belicheck.
    ====

    Belichick is only 19-19 as Pats coach without Brady starting. Brady is good. That is all.

  45. IMO, I would say that Brady is the Greatest of his era. Remember, Montana and Bradshaw didn’t have the protection from the league that Brady and most other quarterbacks of today do.

    I also think that Bill Belicheck is hands down a freaking genius. And I’m a Steelers’ fan.

    That being said, the New England fans just make it hard to say anything nice about their team. I wish they could learn some of the humility that Brady has.

  46. All time great? Sure. Best ever? Absolutely not.

    There’s already a better, more talented QB playing right now.

  47. He is definitely the most accomplished, and I can’t argue with anyone who says he the best ever but if you had a draft with Brady, Manning, Marino, Favre, Rodgers, Montana etc, who would you take first overall?

    Not sure it would be Brady.

  48. revelation123 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:20 PM

    Considering the fact that when Brady is out, the Patriots have gone 14-4, absolutely not.
    ========

    Nope. As Pats coach, Belichick without Brady starting is merely 18-19.

  49. Any QB who when heavily favored, loses two Super Bowls to Peyton Manning’s kid Brother cannot be considered the best ever.

    Then there’s that whole cheating thing with Tammy’s first 3 rings.

  50. He’s one of the best, but not the best. In fact, there are 2 QBs from his own era who are better: Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers.

  51. Troy Aikman was a far better QB. If it weren’t for Jerry Jones and the start of free agency, he would’ve won three in a row, maybe more.

  52. If we’re basing it on Super Bowl rings, then it’s Joe Montana.

    If we’re basing it on a simple eye test? Peyton Manning.

  53. bonzai2oo says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:10 PM

    Tom Brady has: 2 first team All-Pro, 1 second team All-Pro.
    Aaron Rodgers has: 2 first team All-Pro, 1 second team All-Pro.
    Peyton Manning has: 7 first team All-Pro, 3 second team All-Pro.
    I’d say professional football writers nationwide have declared the winner.
    ============

    Yes, thank you for proving that Peyton Manning is indeed the GOAT of the regular season. (and also the GOAT of one-and-dones in the playoffs)

  54. Manning who has all the numbers except this one also was able to leave a Colts team on the wain after he was surrounded by the best O line for years. My angst against Manning, he was able to shop around and picked a team with a top O line and top players so he did the choosing not the team picking him
    Hey his numbers were in part to making sure the O line gave him time and he played behind two of the best ever.

  55. All time great? Sure. Best ever? Absolutely not.

    There’s already a better, more talented QB playing right now.

    ——

    That is true but Kaepernick still has some rings to earn.

  56. Yeah, if Brady spent most of his career with John Fox, Jim Caldwell or Mike McCarthy he wouldn’t have 4 Super Bowls. And if PM or AR spent 15 years with Bill Belichik they would have a lot more playoff success.

    ===================================

    I think Brady is undoubtedly part of a better run organisation than either Manning or Rodgers, but individually I don’t know if he is better or not”

  57. revelation123 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:20 PM
    Considering the fact that when Brady is out, the Patriots have gone 14-4, absolutely not.
    —————————
    Congrats on the dumbest opinion of the day. Go look at the years following Montana’s departure from San Francisco. Steve Young did just fine, that team was loaded with talent (salary cap violations), Mark Sanchez could have won with that team.

  58. Brady vs. Montana I can consider with a straight face. But Peyton? His nearly annual meltdown against Brady in the playoffs was surpassed only by his epic collapse against the Seahawks in the SB, for which he still owns the record for fastest score in SB history. It just happens to be for the other team. Even when Brady lost a SB he went down swinging and had his team in a position to win before Eli Manning went all cross eyed and broke the laws of physics. Nothing but fight for 60 minutes.

  59. rickeyp says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:26 PM

    Any QB who when heavily favored, loses two Super Bowls to Peyton Manning’s kid Brother cannot be considered the best ever.

    Then there’s that whole cheating thing with Tammy’s first 3 rings.

    ====
    Brady didn’t lose to Eli, he lost to David Tyree and the Giants D-line and a pass Welker usually grabs 99 out of 100 times.
    And Brady’s first 3 were as pure and clean as the driven snow. Filming was done by several other teams of the era and IS STILL LEGAL. It was just made illegal from the sidelines after the 2006 season and the Pats got dinged for it for the 1 Jets game in ’07. And the tape wasn’t used during the game thus zero advantage gained, per the NFL’s own investigation. Pats broke a rule and paid up for it. Do keep up.

  60. Let’s be honest about Brady’s Super Bowls. The first 3 he was mostly a game manager and the last was mostly because the LOB were hurt and Seattle made that terrible play call. The 2 losses to the Giants were heartbreaking but if Brady and that high powered offense could manage more than 1 TD in the first 55 minutes those miracle catches wouldn’t have mattered.

  61. I’ve never been a fan of this insistence that we define “greatest of all time” for anything, especially if something current is a contributor to the discussion. Why do we need to argue if Brady is better than Johnny Unitas, who played in an era of 14-game seasons, a general distain for the forward pass and against defensive players that were legally allowed to clothes-line offensive players? Can’t we just say both were among the greatest and deserve their HOF status?

    Brady is definitely among the greatest, and he’s going to be in the Hall of Fame. That should be enough for him and his fans.

  62. The greatest quarterback of all time is Otto Graham. Anybody who has any sense of history knows this.

  63. revelation123 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:28 PM

    He’s one of the best, but not the best. In fact, there are 2 QBs from his own era who are better: Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers.
    ———————-

    Other than meaningless stats, by what metric are either of those two better than Brady?

    Manning repeatedly choked when it counted the most for his team, and Rodgers hasn’t accomplished much in the post-season either.

    Winning championships is what football is about, after all.

  64. Look, were all football fans and trying to decide who was the best for me is, which qb provided me the most excitement and was just dam fun to watch and had a few records too: Bret Favre hands down. Mr fun Mr excitement. Ya he is my favorite and my best because he gave me more than records, he gave me memories.
    Football lost a lot of excitement since he left. These guys now are all about, me, my numbers, my stats so I get mo money

  65. rickeyp says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:26 PM

    Then there’s that whole cheating thing with Tammy’s first 3 rings.
    ———————————————–
    What “cheating ” are you referring to since it was perfectly LEGAL to tape from the sidelines during their first 3 Super Bowl wins!!

  66. Of course he is. The only one close is Montana. The problem with Joe is that he played in the pre-salary cap era where a team could keep the same players year after year. Then of course, Jerry Rice admitted to cheating his entire career!

  67. Tom Brady is the Greatest of All Time- No question

    Peyton Manning was a beautiful passer of the ball but he rarely won consistently in the post-season, a lot of one and dones. Great QB play is much more about situational football and making the right play at the right time than racking up statistics (Belichick is quoted as saying, “statistics are for losers)

    Montana is very close but he only went to 4 SBs because he lost more frequently in the playoffs. Yes they protect the QB now more (you can’t tear a guys head off) but thats overrated. More important, Brady has had a revolving door of ok receivers, running backs and tight ends for the last 16 years and yet he still wins- Moss and Gronk being the exception. Could Montana do what he did in the salary cap era? Probably not, they would lose some of those weapons to free agency.

    Yes the Pats have had good defenses in the years they won the SB but nothing like the 85 bears, 2000 Ravens or 2013 Seahawks.

  68. Bills fan here, I get to watch him twice a year. He’s the best. And for all the * typing fools, read the final Wells report. I bet you come away with a different opinion.

  69. He’s the best of the protect the QB/receiver era. Nobody here has any clue what his record or stats would be, or how long he would have played in the time when QB’s and receivers were fair game to destroy.

  70. — and he’d have five or six rings if it wasn’t for Eli Manning

    And he would have 0 rings if it wasn’t for Belichick or his kicker.

    Brady’s Superbowls were won by a kicker or a CB.
    Seriously. He had a great game against the Eagles but still…won only by 3?
    Brady has been in how many, 6, superbowls?
    Beat the Rams by 3 (Kicker MVP) Def had a pick 6
    Beat the Panthers by 3 (Kicker MVP) Game winner FG
    Beat Eagles by 3 (Kicker MVP)
    Lost to the Giants by 3
    Lost to the Giants by 4
    Beat the Seahawks by 4 (CB MVP)

    In his superbowls the Pats have only outscored the opponent by an average of 1 point. How does the best of all time let that happen?

    All the credit for being in the Superbowl but not really blowing away the competition when there.

  71. Tomasina Brady is the NFL equivalent of the NASCAR seven time shampion, James Mae Johnson.

    Both are complicit in serial cheating with the Hendrick Motorsports Mafia team number 48 having been caught and penalized no less than 14 times – and he’s never won a shampionship (yes, sham-pion) in a year when his team has been free of penalties.

    We have to face it – we have dishonorable men like Tiger Woods, a multitude of MLB players who use performance enhancing drugs, and players in the NFL like Brady who cheat and have no remorse; and even if Brady were only part of the cheating problem, he is part of a franchise that has been caught cheating.

    There is no way you can claim Brady is the best. That insults the other players who played by the rules and earned their wins the old fashioned way – playing great ball.

  72. Brady’s passer rating only goes to HOF levels after he started deflating footballs. Before that, he was Trent Dilfer.

    So is Brady the GOAT?

    Only if you give Lance Armstrong his Tour de France’s back. They are both cheaters.

  73. Not a 9er or Pats fan here.

    There’s often a frown or a scowl on Brady’s face that foreshadows a late comeback, or a complete pasting of your (opponent) team. If you’re organised and haven’t blown your salary cap on your QB, you might have a chance of fending him off, but it’s a slim chance. Kinda fun to watch, even if my team’s been on the receiving end of it a couple of times.

    Montana had a look that struck fear into opponent defenses, in similar situations. It was one of pure calm, going through the motions, lining up and looking out at them. There was nothing you could do. You were about to lose. I got sick of seeing that look. I bet many teams fans did.

    It’s a question that can’t be answered with any certainty. But if I had to choose one, I’d take Montana.

  74. I don’t go back far enough to know about Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, and the guys before them. Joe Montana is heads and shoulders above any QB I’ve ever seen, and it’s not even close. He’s by far the best football player at any position. Any QB with multiple super bowl wins is worthy of consideration. That’s my opinion and that’s the good thing about sports. Everyone can have an opinion. If someone wanted to argue about John Elway, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Aikman, or Terry Bradshaw, I would let them have their say. They were all great. Jim Kelly went to four straight SBs. Nobody did that. The ’72 Dolphins had the only perfect season. Does that make Bob Griese the best? One thing for sure, if you’re trying to make a decision based on numbers and stats, there are probably enough to make a case for anyone. I’m going strictly by on field performance.

  75. His record when he throws the ball 50+ times or his defense allows 21+ or 28+ points undoubtedly cement him as the ultimate put-the-team-on-your-back QB

    Add in the SBs and it is over.

  76. Not even the best of his own time. System quarterback, whining little sissy, and gets his wins with a cheating team.

  77. Brady is the best of the now QB’s but who knows how he would have faired in the era of non-skirt wearing QB’s. Nobody is playing old school bump and run on his Twinkie sized wr’s. I think he wouldn’t be playing this long……he hates being hit….and he would have been hit…a lot.

  78. I am a Packers fan and I think Tom Brady is the best QB of his era, hands down. I also think he is one of the best of all time.
    However, when we start rating him or anyone else as the best ever, we must stop and think about the era he has played in. Every QB who has played under the rules which were changed to make the passing game the predominant way to move the ball has inflated stats. Even QB’s who play on perennial losers have tons of yardage every year now.
    I’ve been watching the NFL since 1960 and I completely ignore stats when I rate all-time QB’s. That’s because it’s simply unfair to compare players who played under different rules than guys in eras which overwhelmingly favor the QB’s and WR’s.
    To me, QB is the one position where the mental aspect is as important as the physical one. Let’s face it, no one ever called Joe Montana the most physically gifted QB who ever lived, yet many think he was the best. On the other hand there have plenty of guys like Jeff George who had all the physical skill you could ever want, but were far from great QB’s.
    It’s all just anyone’s opinion of course, and no one can say definitively that their #1 is the greatest, but in my humble opinion here are the greatest QB’s ever:
    1. Johnny Unitas. He was Joe Montana before Joe Montana and Raymond Berry was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice.
    2. Sammy Baugh. He dominated his era more than any QB ever did theirs, plus he was a great DB and punter.
    3. Tom Brady. Slam him all you want, but the fact is, he’s done it over and over again with different casts and characters.
    4. Otto Graham. Great QB who no one ever talks about. Go back and look at what he did.
    5. John Elway. Maybe the most gifted athlete to ever play the position.
    6. Joe Montana. He was the 2nd coming of Bart Starr.
    7. Bart Starr. The most over-looked QB in the history of the NFL. He led the Packers to 5 world championships in 7 years, and that has never been equaled. Plus, he almost won a 6th one. Anyone who sells him short is sadly mistaken and never saw him play.
    8. Dan Marino. If Shula would have gotten him better players on offense to work with, he’d have set records which would never have been broken.
    9. Peyton Manning. He had too many big games where he didn’t play well to rank him any higher, but he was still one of the best.
    10. Roger Staubach. He didn’t even come into the league until he was 27 years old due to his Naval commitment. But his greatness is unquestioned.
    To me, there a bunch of guys who were also great, but just a notch below these guys. I put Steve Young, Brett Favre, Ben Roethlisberger, Dan Fouts, Lenny Dawson, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgenson, Terry Bradshaw, Sid Luckman, Bobby Layne, Y.A. Tittle and Bob Waterfield in that category.
    I purposely left off Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers from this list because they’re still playing at a high level and the book isn’t closed on them yet.
    And I purposely left Joe Namath, Jim Kelly, and Warren Moon off this list, too. I just don’t think they rate with any of these guys.
    The bottom line for me is, if I could have one guy to win a big game with, I’d choose Unitas first. He had it all. And I couldn’t stand him, because I was a Packers fan.

  79. Steroid use is far worse then anything Brady did. Lots of guys in the HOF were caught for that. Deflategate will be seen as irrelevant 5 years after he retires.

    He’s the greatest QB of all time in my opinion, but I am biased. Arguments for Montana or Marino or Manning are all valid. As would be Unitas or Graham. That’s what makes the argument fun.

  80. Nofoolnodrool says:
    Dec 5, 2016 6:34 PM
    Brady is the best of the now QB’s but who knows how he would have faired in the era of non-skirt wearing QB’s. Nobody is playing old school bump and run on his Twinkie sized wr’s. I think he wouldn’t be playing this long……he hates being hit….and he would have been hit…a lot.

    ———–

    Don’t know where you get Brady hating to get hit. He likes to get hit. He’s as tough as they come. Watch him jump up after every hit. Look at how long he has played and how much he has stayed on the field.

    His whining to the refs comes from wanting to win. If can get a 15 yard penalty on his opponent he does.

  81. I give montana the edge over brady because of his miracle-come-from-behind victories late in the playoffs. I would call it 1. montana 2. Elway 3. brady

  82. Vikings fan here. Until recently I would have said Peyton Manning is the best QB I have seen. He had great command of the game and picked apart defenses like no one else.

    But Brady has done it for longer and won more than Manning. Brady also has a cannon and makes guys better, Moss had 25 freaking TD’s one year.

  83. No, not someone who lost to Opie Taylor twice on the world’s greatest stage. Not the person who missed a wide open Welker on a medium pass to seal the deal, not the person who would surely lose Super Bowl #3 between them and not the person who hasn’t beaten Peyton in the playoff’s since 2004!

  84. Tom Brady a greater difference between his wins and losses than Joe Montana has wins. Think about that. Tom Brady owns just about every post season passing record. When he retires, he’ll own just about every regular season record. He has done what he has done playing in a cold weather region and playing outdoors. He has done what he has done in a salary cap era seeing his best teammates sign with other teams (ouch the most on Ty Law). The arguments against Brady are growing fewer and fewer.

  85. Otto Graham. 114–20–4 overall record. Holds the records for career yards/attempt (8.98) and highest winning % as a starting QB (81.4%). Played 10 years, went to the championship game all 10 years, winning 7.

    What is amazing is his career yards per attempt. This was back in the 40’s and 50’s, not exactly high-production QBing at the time…

  86. Brady vs. Montana I can consider with a straight face. But Peyton? His nearly annual meltdown against Brady in the playoffs was surpassed only by his epic collapse against the Seahawks in the SB, for which he still owns the record for fastest score in SB history.

    ——————-

    Nearly annual meltdown against Brady in the playoffs? The last three times both teams played in the playoffs Manning won, once with the Colts and twice with the Broncos.

  87. las0023 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 5:17 PM
    Joe Montana is the GOAT. He had only 9 years on a contender and won 4 Super Bows. Brady’s had 15 years and he’s only matched Montana’s Super Bowls.
    +++++++++++++++

    9 years on a contender by your obviously subjective opinion of what defines contender. When you have to cherry pick numbers you defeat your own argument out of the gate. Montana never took a non winning team into the playoffs, therefore all of his playoff teams were ‘contenders’ to varying degrees and surely any team with the GOAT by definition has to be considered a contender. Montana’s playoff win % was .696, Brady’s is .710. Your 4 for 4 SB argument is laughable on it’s face as it rewards Montana for failing to get to get that far as often as Brady as well as ignoring his 4 one and dones in 11 playoff trips vs Brady’s 2 in 13 trips.

    None of that is said to make an argument against Montana as the best. It just invalidates yours against it being Brady.

  88. Most successful doesn’t necessarily equate to the best.

    The best QB of all time may not have won a single SB. To rank best QBs, you’d need to consider specific QB skills and abilities, not team success.

  89. Common sense. The 49ers weren’t a contender until the year they won the Super Bowl and 1990 was his last year playing for them. Being hurt and playing for the Chiefs obviously isn’t playing for a contender. Montana with the 49ers had a .720 playoff win %. I never made the argument that Montana was better because he never lost in the Super Bowl. I said that Montana never made it to more SBs because he wasn’t on a contending team and played against tougher competition. Anyway, the main reason Montana and Brady are considered all time greats in team success so it makes sense to look at how good their teams were. And Brady played more years for a good team.

    “9 years on a contender by your obviously subjective opinion of what defines contender. When you have to cherry pick numbers you defeat your own argument out of the gate. Montana never took a non winning team into the playoffs, therefore all of his playoff teams were ‘contenders’ to varying degrees and surely any team with the GOAT by definition has to be considered a contender. Montana’s playoff win % was .696, Brady’s is .710. Your 4 for 4 SB argument is laughable on it’s face as it rewards Montana for failing to get to get that far as often as Brady as well as ignoring his 4 one and dones in 11 playoff trips vs Brady’s 2 in 13 trips.”

  90. It’s interesting that TB12 has the most wins 11-6 , against non other than PED Manning. He also reached his record in 31 less games than Manning.Yet some posters still believe Manning is better. The other interesting fact is he’s 5-0 versus Luck.
    Mike Reiss on ESPN has an awesome article on his 201 wins. Worth reading.

  91. He would have been in the league long if he played for the Browns. His coach is the best at putting pieces around him. If you put Brees on the Pat’s he’d be the best. Put Brady on the Saints and he wouldn’t win 2 games.

  92. guybushsghost says:
    Dec 5, 2016 7:09 PM
    Otto Graham. 114–20–4 overall record. Holds the records for career yards/attempt (8.98) and highest winning % as a starting QB (81.4%). Played 10 years, went to the championship game all 10 years, winning 7.

    What is amazing is his career yards per attempt. This was back in the 40’s and 50’s, not exactly high-production QBing at the time…

    1 0
    Report comment

    —————————

    He also played against defensive ends who were 5’11”, 200 lbs and ran 5.3 40’s. 85% of the people from that era (60-70 years ago) wouldn’t get a tryout with today’s teams. Too small, too slow, too white.
    How can anyone say a guy who barely completed 50% of his passes and only twice had over 300 attempts is the best quarterback ever? He also threw only 16 fewer interceptions than Brady with about 4,300 fewer attempts. Let that one sink in for a second, 4,300 fewer attempts

  93. Tom Brady is the only QB in history to play 16 years for one of the best coaches and owners in history. Of course he has the most accomplishments. Any great QB would.

  94. Hahahaha….he’s been caught cheating and so has his coach. He plays in an era where qbs have a strike zone for hits. He would had been cut if he played in the 90s or before for being a baby or cheat. He should try playing in a league that allows dbs to play defense. Most overated qb of all time is what the title should say.

  95. Patriots record since the start of Bradys career: 219-80

    Pats record with Brady starting: 201-61

    Pats record without Brady starting: 18-19

    But he’s just a system QB with a great coach carrying him? Numbers don’t back it up.

  96. Chippy: you really need to review 7th grade science, the science that proves the balls were not tampered with. My goodness, even the NFL admitted in federal court there was NO evidence!

    We in NE have been blessed to watch one of the greatest to play the game.

    GOAT , no question now, unless one flunked 7th grade science!!!

  97. plum54 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 10:02 PM
    Chippy: you really need to review 7th grade science, the science that proves the balls were not tampered with.
    +++++++++++++++

    Review it? He won’t study it for the first time until next year.

  98. That’s why it’s impossible to say 1 QB is the GOAT. Too many variables. Rodgers and Manning are both more talented pure passers than Brady but they didn’t have the same playoff success. But they’ve played most of their careers for mediocre coaches and management. Yet team success alone isn’t enough to anoint a player as the best either as that depends on the other 21+ players, coaches, trainers and competition of the day. And Brady chocked enough times too. His last 3 AFC Championship game losses ended because of his interceptions. Of course the worst one was last year’s against the Broncos. He had the best tight end in history wide open for the tying score but threw into double coverage and got picked off instead.

    =========================================

    Other than meaningless stats, by what metric are either of those two better than Brady?

    Manning repeatedly choked when it counted the most for his team, and Rodgers hasn’t accomplished much in the post-season either.

    Winning championships is what football is about, after all.

  99. classyjacklambert says:

    Dec 5, 2016 4:23 PM
    No but only because of the cheating and tainted legacy. If it hadn’t been for all the cheating and scandals, there’s really no telling how great he’d be. It is a shame really.
    ===================================
    Cheaters? How’s former Steeler’s doc Richard Rydze doing?

    No, I’m sure it didn’t involve Steelers players at all.

  100. Misleading as that includes the year before Brady was drafted when they were terrible and Belichik didn’t have a chance to make his imprint on the team. Bottom line is in the Brady era the Patriots have the same winning percentage whether he’s playing or not.

    =========================================

    veddermn8 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 9:38 PM
    Patriots record since the start of Bradys career: 219-80

    Pats record with Brady starting: 201-61

    Pats record without Brady starting: 18-19

  101. And he would have 0 rings if it wasn’t for Belichick or his kicker.

    Brady’s Superbowls were won by a kicker or a CB.
    Seriously. He had a great game against the Eagles but still…won only by 3?
    Brady has been in how many, 6, superbowls?
    Beat the Rams by 3 (Kicker MVP) Def had a pick 6
    Beat the Panthers by 3 (Kicker MVP) Game winner FG
    Beat Eagles by 3 (Kicker MVP)
    Lost to the Giants by 3
    Lost to the Giants by 4
    Beat the Seahawks by 4 (CB MVP)

    In his superbowls the Pats have only outscored the opponent by an average of 1 point. How does the best of all time let that happen?

    All the credit for being in the Superbowl but not really blowing away the competition when there.

    —-

    This argument is made plenty of times and the way to counter it is to point out the fact that Brady played no easy teams in the Super Bowl. 🙂 He played the very best.

    01 Rams= great team
    03 Panthers=ok QB but rest of team was great. And on PEDs.
    04 Eagles = great team
    07 Giants = great defense good offense
    11 Giants= good team
    14 Seahawks = great team

    Not one tomato can in there. No 06 Bears. No 94 Chargers. And so on, hence the close games. 🙂

  102. Brady’s Superbowls were won by a kicker or a CB.
    Seriously. He had a great game against the Eagles but still…won only by 3?
    Brady has been in how many, 6, superbowls?
    Beat the Rams by 3 (Kicker MVP) Def had a pick 6
    Beat the Panthers by 3 (Kicker MVP) Game winner FG
    Beat Eagles by 3 (Kicker MVP)
    Lost to the Giants by 3
    Lost to the Giants by 4
    Beat the Seahawks by 4 (CB MVP)


    Kicker certainly wasn’t MVP at any time. He kicked 2 FGs vs Rams- that’s 2, it’s not like he kicked 5, actually had a poor game against the a Panthers and wasn’t really a factor one way or the other vs Eagles.

    #TryBeingObjectiveItsFun

  103. For those who think Montana’s 4-0 > Brady’s 4-2 in Super Bowls…

    What’s better- 4 gold medals alone or 4 gold medals AND 2 silvers?

    🙂

  104. Otto Graham. 114–20–4 overall record. Holds the records for career yards/attempt (8.98) and highest winning % as a starting QB (81.4%). Played 10 years, went to the championship game all 10 years, winning 7.


    Not that hard to do when you play in a 12 team league.

    🙂

  105. Otto Graham. 114–20–4 overall record. Holds the records for career yards/attempt (8.98) and highest winning % as a starting QB (81.4%). Played 10 years, went to the championship game all 10 years, winning 7.

    Not that hard to do when you play in a 12 team league.
    ===================================
    If it’s easier to do in a 12-team league, why did the Steelers have zero championships and only one playoff appearance from 1933 to 1973, when the league was at times even less than 12 teams?

    And 6 Super Bowl victories from 1974 until now- in a much larger league?

  106. You know what’s weird? With all the spygate talk it always gets lost that video taping is not against the rules. It’s not now and never has been.

  107. He matches them in Super Bowl wins, he played better then them and for longer

    Love be the argument Montana never lost in a Super Bowl, maybe because he lost more often in confeeence championship games

    Love the argument that it’s coaching, hmmm let’s see who the best coaches of there eras were. Bill Walsh (Montana), chuck knoll (Bradshaw), Vince Lombardi (Bart Starr)……

    Don’t think it’s also harder in the salary cap era? Consider this Brady is second all time to have thrown the most tds to different people behind bunny testaverde who played on 8 different teams. Besides one year with. OSS and a few with gronk, it’s safe to say the bulk of his career was played with way less talented receivers.

    Stick to bogus deflate gate, and let the media like this site tell u how videoing signals is horrible and only the pats were doing it. As well know that u can still steal signals without a video camera, a binoculars, pen and paper and will get a lot. And lastly I pray u don’t have a coach that keeps the same signals from week to week lol.

    The goat!

  108. You want to grasp to make an argument for Bradshaw or Montana in comparison to the GREATEST ONE with all the wins and rings, go ahead and strain the stubborn facts. They were superb for a relatively brief period against lesser competition. They deserve tremendous respect.

    But don’t even bring that choking, losing dog Manning into the same conversation with Bradshaw or Montana let alone the THE GREATEST BRADY.

  109. Is Brady the best QB of his era? Yes, he is. (I like Peyton, but he could have won more if he didn’t tried to over control his team in the playoffs earlier in his career) Is he the best of QB of all time? It’s a complex issue. He’s at the head table but it’s a 100 year history and there are a lot of different variables (Stats, Style, Rules, Length of Career, etc) that can go into answer that question. The people who are at that table in my mind are Brady, Peyton, Elway, Montana, Unitas, Graham, Starr, Baugh, Favre, Bradshaw, and Staubach. Now, we could all argue until we are blue in the face but there is no correct answer because this is a subjective and there can be no correct answer.

  110. Las0023

    Nope, Brady was on the roster that year, not misleading at all. You are wrong. Brady was drafted in Belichicks first draft in 2000. Pats are only 18-19 in Bradys career when he is not starting. That is fact and proves he is not a System QB.

    And after Bledsoe was hurt, a year after he went 5-11 with Belichick, Brady took a very similar roster to a Super Bowl victory as a second year pro and only a year removed from being 4th on the depth chart. That was him just getting started.

  111. In every Super Bowl Tom Brady has played in he always led the team back to win. In two Super Bowl loses if the defense holds it down they win. If Welker catches that ball they win.

  112. If you placed every quarterbacks stats next to each other and had someone who doesn’t know anything about football pick based on the stats who was the best quarterback they would pick Tom Brady.

  113. Im sorry but no he is not!!! When at least 20 former teamates including Troy Brown say that brady cheated almost every week, than i cant even put him in the top 10. Yes he is good but he is also a cheater and a liar!!!

  114. What is all this nonsense about Tom Brady being only the Greatest QB of All-Time?

    Tom Brady is without question or debate, completely objectively speaking/writing, the Greatest NFL Player of All-Time. By definition that makes Tom Brady the Greatest QB of All-Time.

    Jim Brown is without question or debate, completely objectively speaking/writing, the second Greatest NFL Player of All-Time.

    We can debate, subjectively, who is the third Greatest NFL Player of All-Time. If the winner of that debate is a QB, then we will have selected the second Greatest QB of All-Time.

    You can thank me later for having made this clear to everyone.

    🙂

  115. Unfortunately, no. We’ll never know how many of those game he would have lost if he hadn’t cheated, or if BillB & Co hadn’t cheated on his behalf. This is right up there with the “Home Run Record in the Steroids Era” that baseball has to deal with. It tarnishes the League.

  116. Despite whatever anyone thinks about ‘SpyGate,’ the fact is that Brady and Patriots’ won/loss percentage is greater since that Jets’ game in 2007, than it had been prior to the scandal.
    In other words, if Belichick’s ‘scheme’ for taping signals (in full view of 80K fans, as he once said), helped TB12 or the team gain any competitive advantage, the stats conclude that it was less than infinitesimal.
    BTW – their record is 129-40 in all competitions, since Mangini reported them.

  117. hlna55 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:37 PM

    Montana never LOST a super bowl.

    Neither have Doug Williams or Trent Differ. Are they better than Peyton? Silly argument that because a player only went to 4 he’s better than a guy who went to 6.

    Bart Starr played 12 game seasons. Nowhere near as tough as today’s game. Guys are now bigger, faster.

    Montana & Bradshaw had no cap and PED use was rampant.

    Marino has no rings.

    Brady has wins, stats, rings, longevity, total package.

  118. Best in the modern era, and besides Moss, never had great WR to throw to. However, Otto Graham is up there as one of the best. If you don’t know who he is, you are not a true NFL fan.

  119. laserw says:
    Dec 5, 2016 6:16 PM

    Both are complicit in serial cheating with the Hendrick Motorsports Mafia team number 48 having been caught and penalized no less than 14 times –
    ————————————–

    BS. Tom Brady has never been involved in any sort of cheating with Hendrick Motorsports.

    If you are going to make something up, at least make it plausible.

  120. Actually, since Brady won those first 3 Super Bowls as a game manager, Manning has a better record in the playoffs and Super Bowls. And is 3-1 against Brady in AFC Championship games that ended with Brady getting intercepted.

    ================================================

    But don’t even bring that choking, losing dog Manning into the same conversation with Bradshaw or Montana let alone the THE GREATEST BRADY.

  121. Football history lesson:

    From Montana’s first SB win until he retired covered a period where the NFC won every Super Bowl but one over 13 years. Joe made his fame beating an inferior AFC and was only 4-3 in NFC Championship games.

    Tom #1, Joe #2.

  122. las0023 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 10:50 PM

    Misleading as that includes the year before Brady was drafted when they were terrible and Belichik didn’t have a chance to make his imprint on the team. Bottom line is in the Brady era the Patriots have the same winning percentage whether he’s playing or not.

    =========================================

    veddermn8 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 9:38 PM
    Patriots record since the start of Bradys career: 219-80

    Pats record with Brady starting: 201-61

    Pats record without Brady starting: 18-19
    ————————————————–
    Actually, veddermn8 is correct. Brady was drafted in 2000 not 2001, he didn’t start as a rookie. Pats record in years since Brady was drafted but didn’t start:
    2000 5-11
    2001 0-2
    2008 10-5
    2016 3-1
    Total 18-19

  123. Most wins with the highest winning percentage of all time (regular season and playoffs).

    Highest winning percentage of all time (Regular season)

    Most SB appearances (can’t win games you don’t play in)

    I can never wrap my head around the argument that it is better to not make a Super Bowl than to lose one. Montana went one and done in the playoffs three straight years in his prime, and in those games threw 0 TD’s and 4 INT’s… how is that somehow better than giving your team the lead in the final 3 minutes of 2 Super Bowls only to see your defense unable to make a stop?

    At the rate Brady is playing right now he will own or be a close second in nearly every major passing category (except Favre’s interception record). In fact he will probably have the greatest TD to interception ratio in history as well.

  124. xiiprestige says:
    Dec 6, 2016 12:15 AM
    Im sorry but no he is not!!! When at least 20 former teamates including Troy Brown say that brady cheated almost every week, than i cant even put him in the top 10. Yes he is good but he is also a cheater and a liar!!!

    xiiprestige says:
    Dec 6, 2016 12:20 AM
    He will never be better than Manning was or Montana
    __________________________________________

    Haha 20 former teammates? Please do list. In actuality, there has not been one former teammate, coach, executive, etc. who has claimed this. Nice making things up that can clearly be debunked.

    Plus, the above is the ultimate hypocrite comment. You say Brady cheated so he can’t be in the top 10, but in a separate comment say he will never be better than Manning or Montana. Montana played with Jerry Rice, who is a confirmed cheater, and also an offensive line that has admitted to spraying silicone on their uniforms. Montana is quoted as saying “if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying”. Manning used PEDs. So again, what exactly is your position?

    On your way out the door, please pick up the mic I just dropped at your feet.

  125. The only thing this article has accomplished is exposing those that are at worse lazy (made up stats, claiming Manning is actually better than Brady, etc.) and those that are willfully ignorant (system QB, would be nowehere without BB, etc.)

    The bottom line is Tom Brady is the GOAT. I guess you can debate it, but its really not debatable. He has the hardware, the stats, the sustained success, and the overall attitude it takes to hold the GOAT position. Manning was great in the regular season and, at most, pedestrian in the playoffs. Montana was a great all-around QB. Tom Brady is better than both…..and he’s not done yet.

  126. Some of the commentators on here are hilarious. In one breath they will claim wins are a team stat and mean nothing to TB’s legacy. In the next breath they will point out that Manning has won more head to head AFCC games, while ignoring Brady is 11-6 vs. Manning. Which is it….time to make up your minds.

    If the game was on the line and you had one last drive, would anyone in their right mind ever choose Manning over Brady in that situation? If you say yes, you are either ignorant or your name is Archie Manning.

  127. Wins are a team stat that the QB contributes to along with other players, coaches, trainers, owners, etc. But…if that’s the argument people are making for Brady then it’s fair to point out that Montana won as many Super Bowls in less time against tougher competition and that Manning usually beat Brady when it mattered.

    =========================================

    Some of the commentators on here are hilarious. In one breath they will claim wins are a team stat and mean nothing to TB’s legacy. In the next breath they will point out that Manning has won more head to head AFCC games, while ignoring Brady is 11-6 vs. Manning. Which is it….time to make up your minds.

  128. Wins are a team stat that the QB contributes to along with other players, coaches, trainers, owners, etc. But…if that’s the argument people are making for Brady then it’s fair to point out that Montana won as many Super Bowls in less time against tougher competition and that Manning usually beat Brady when it mattered.
    __________________________________________

    I am fine with that statement, but you can’t play both sides of it, which was what I was pointing out. You can’t claim the 201 wins doesn’t put Brady a notch up then argue for Manning for being 3-2 in AFCC games against Brady in the same breath.

    As it relates to your argument, Montana also played in two less SBs then Brady, which as some posters have pointed out, is better than not making it at all. Montana was great in most play off games and horrendous in others when the 49ers did not make the SB. Brady holds pretty much all the post season stats in addition to tying Montana for wins and MVBs in the SB, so the fact that Montana did it in less time really doesn’t mean much to me.

    Now Manning…..yes, he was blessed to have been along for the ride on the Broncos last year. Congrats to him. It allowed for his worshipers to claim he can beat Brady “when it mattered”. But he is at most a pedestrian QB in the playoffs……”when it really mattered”. In SBs, he is a below average QB with more INTs then TDs. The bottom line……Manning is no where close to Brady in the GOAT conversation.

  129. Brady’s a great QB with an amazing list of accomplishments. But he’s also the only QB to play 16 years with the greatest coach and owner of our generation. Manning has the exact same playoff QB rating as Brady did, so it’s reasonable to assume if he played for NE instead of being stuck with Jim Caldwell, John Fox and Jim Irsay for most of his career he’d have similar success. Joe Montana had a higher playoff win percentage (with the 49ers) than Brady but only played a decade for them, so it’s reasonable to assume if he had another 6 years he’d have more wins and hardware too.

    ========================================

    The bottom line is Tom Brady is the GOAT. I guess you can debate it, but its really not debatable. He has the hardware, the stats, the sustained success, and the overall attitude it takes to hold the GOAT position. Manning was great in the regular season and, at most, pedestrian in the playoffs. Montana was a great all-around QB. Tom Brady is better than both…..and he’s not done yet.

  130. superpatriotsfan says:
    Dec 6, 2016 9:49 AM

    Belichick is overrated. A .500 coach without Brady the cheater.
    =====

    Hahaha, now your using my arguments against “Brady, the system QB” for your own “Belichick is an average coach without Brady” argument? Thanks for the laugh, that was great.

    Belichick, by the way, has been to a record NINE Super Bowls as a coach and is a very respectable 6-3 in them.

    His defensive gameplan for the Giants against the vaunted Bills no huddle offense in the Super Bowl was so revered, the Football Hall of Fame requested it for their archives. That’s never happened before.

    And Hall of Famer Bill Parcells has never been to a Super Bowl (he went to 3 total) without Belichick on his staff.

    But yea, he is overrated.

  131. Wins are a team stat that the QB contributes to along with other players, coaches, trainers, owners, etc. But…if that’s the argument people are making for Brady then it’s fair to point out that Montana won as many Super Bowls in less time against tougher competition and that Manning usually beat Brady when it mattered.
    __________________________________________

    I am fine with that statement, but you can’t play both sides of it, which was what I was pointing out. You can’t claim the 201 wins doesn’t put Brady a notch up then argue for Manning for being 3-2 in AFCC games against Brady in the same breath.

    —-
    You beat me to it.

    You can believe wins either matter for QB’s or they don’t. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to say they matter only when it suits the argument being made 🙂

  132. Montana won as many Super Bowls in less time against tougher competition
    —-
    Montana most certainly did not face tougher competition in the Super Bowl. I take it you didn’t watch the NFL back in the 80’s and early 90’s when the gap between the two conferences was a yawning canyon.

  133. xiiprestige says:
    Dec 6, 2016 12:15 AM

    Im sorry but no he is not!!! When at least 20 former teamates including Troy Brown say that brady cheated almost every week, than i cant even put him in the top 10. Yes he is good but he is also a cheater and a liar!!!
    ……………………

    source? You do know just making things up without any evidence hurts your argument, not helps it, right?

  134. fritz96 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 11:00 AM

    The bottom line is Tom Brady is the GOAT. I guess you can debate it, but its really not debatable.
    ===================================
    Of course it’s not the bottom line, and it’s completely debatable. A person declaring it “not debatable” certainly doesn’t make it so.

    A QB’s ability to win is contingent on so many other parts of the team, the defense, the coaching, etc.

    It’s not as simplistic as some would like to make it. For example, if “championships won” were the metric, then Trent Dilfer would be the better QB than Dan Marino and Dan Fouts.

    It all depends upon your reference point.

  135. Rings are a TEAM accomplishment. Stats are individual accomplishments.

    —–
    Brady has the rings, the wins AND the stats to make him…

    Wait for it…

    Wait for it…

    The Greatest QB that ever graced an NFL football field with his presence.

    🙂

  136. No, but in his own conference Montana had to face the Bears, Redskins and Belichik/Parcells Giants. In Brady’s 22 Playoff victories name my any team as good as those 3…

    =========================================

    —-
    Montana most certainly did not face tougher competition in the Super Bowl. I take it you didn’t watch the NFL back in the 80’s and early 90’s when the gap between the two conferences was a yawning canyon.

  137. Wins matter but not to the degree that some people think. Just because Montana won 4 SBs and Marino doesn’t have a ring doesn’t mean Montana’s better. Same as Brady having more rings than Manning or Rodgers. However, if Brady’s wins are the main argument with some people for his being the GOAT, then’s its fair to point out where he’s come up short. The 3 Championship losses to Manning, not being able to score against the Giants in the Super Bowls…

    ========================================

    I am fine with that statement, but you can’t play both sides of it, which was what I was pointing out. You can’t claim the 201 wins doesn’t put Brady a notch up then argue for Manning for being 3-2 in AFCC games against Brady in the same breath.

    —-
    You beat me to it.

    You can believe wins either matter for QB’s or they don’t. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to say they matter only when it suits the argument being made🙂

    —-

    Wins are a team stat that the QB contributes to along with other players, coaches, trainers, owners, etc. But…if that’s the argument people are making for Brady then it’s fair to point out that Montana won as many Super Bowls in less time against tougher competition and that Manning usually beat Brady when it mattered.

  138. Brady’s a great QB with an amazing list of accomplishments. But he’s also the only QB to play 16 years with the greatest coach and owner of our generation. Manning has the exact same playoff QB rating as Brady did, so it’s reasonable to assume if he played for NE instead of being stuck with Jim Caldwell, John Fox and Jim Irsay for most of his career he’d have similar success. Joe Montana had a higher playoff win percentage (with the 49ers) than Brady but only played a decade for them, so it’s reasonable to assume if he had another 6 years he’d have more wins and hardware too.
    __________________________________________

    First, you are conveniently leaving out the fact that Manning played a large chunk of his career with Tony Dungy. We can debate all we want how good Dungy really was, but he is a HOF coach that Manning played for and won a SB with. I’m not even going to get into the weapons Manning had on offense for the majority of his career while Brady often times had a revolving door at the position. You are basing your arguments off hypothetical situations. Would having BB mean that Manning would not have been one of the lowest rated QBs last year against the Panthers? Or thrown more INTs then TDs in his 4 SB appearances? Having a good coach certainly has its advantages, but come playoff time its more about the way the team and players perform. BB wasn’t out there carving up the Seahawks in the forth quarter of the SB. When Denver lost to Seattle in SB 48, they were the #1 team coming out of the AFC with home field advantage throughout the playoffs……with John Fox as the coach. Is it Fox’s fault that Manning looked pathetic against Seattle in that SB? Would having BB as the coach change the outcome?

    Montana had a higher playoff win percentage. Who cares? You are jumping all over the place with your stats. Brady has more TDs, wins, etc. than Montana. Who cares if it took him 10 years or 50 years. Montana also had the benefit of no salary cap and not a rotating team every year. Montana left the 49ers and they continued to dominate with Steve Young at QB.

  139. Wins matter but not to the degree that some people think. Just because Montana won 4 SBs and Marino doesn’t have a ring doesn’t mean Montana’s better. Same as Brady having more rings than Manning or Rodgers. However, if Brady’s wins are the main argument with some people for his being the GOAT, then’s its fair to point out where he’s come up short. The 3 Championship losses to Manning, not being able to score against the Giants in the Super Bowls…
    __________________________________________

    I think most that support Brady would not solely rely on the “wins” as the main argument. Its not like he’s been along for the ride on winning teams. He has the hardware but also the stats and accolades to back it up. By the time he is done with his career, he will likely be #1 or #2 in most QB statistical categories. He will also have the hardware to boot. So, when you couple those together, yea its easy to make Brady the GOAT.

  140. fritz96 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 12:09 PM

    Wins matter but not to the degree that some people think. Just because Montana won 4 SBs and Marino doesn’t have a ring doesn’t mean Montana’s better. Same as Brady having more rings than Manning or Rodgers. However, if Brady’s wins are the main argument with some people for his being the GOAT, then’s its fair to point out where he’s come up short. The 3 Championship losses to Manning, not being able to score against the Giants in the Super Bowls…
    .
    =======================

    Well last year’s Denver loss was because of the Denver D, had little to do with Manning. Brady came within a bad kicking performance by Gostowski and a 2pt conversion of winning that game despite being hit more in that game than any other QB in any other game in all of 2015. If the QBs switched teams last year, Manning would not have made it through the 2nd quarter.

    And Brady is great because not only has he won, but he has consistently won. In the 14 seasons he’s started most of the games, he has been to TEN AFC title games, advancing the Super Bowl a record six times. That completely smokes Montana (who had vastly superior talent around him) and Manning. That’s not an accident. He also leads the NFL in all time playoff 4th Qtr comebacks.

    Montana vs. Brady is a good debate, Peyton’s poor playoff record disqualifies him. He is the all time leader in one and dones. The GOAT can’t have that on his plaque.

  141. You’re underestimating the importance of having a guy like Belichik and his coaching staff. If he was with the Broncos for SB48 he wouldn’t be on the sideline as the game was starting saying, “It’s noisy…maybe we should have practiced for that…” We all know how the first snap went. Dungy was eventually elected to the HOF but he’s not in Belichik’s class, and Kubiak, Fox and Caldwell aren’t even in Dungy’s class. They’ve all been fired in the past 5 years for poor performance.

    Playoff win percentage is more important than total wins as a measure of quality. Winning 4 Super Bowls in 10 years is more impressive than if it takes 20.

    Again, Belichik is the one who deserves credit for maintaining a great team over 16 years with the salary cap. He was able to trade players while they still had value, draft smart and acquire underachieving free agents.

    Steve Young was one of the most talented QBs in NFL history. If he was with the 49ers for 1980s or NE for the 2000s he’d have a lot more hardware too.

    =========================================

  142. hlna55 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:37 PM

    Montana never LOST a super bowl. And he played in an era that allowed defenders to actually HIT the quarterback. Brady has lost the big game twice and I won’t even mention the rest of his long sorted story.

    If I had to win tomoworr or lose everything, no way I take anyone other than Joe Montana under centre.
    ——————————————
    Montana never “LOST” a Super Bowl because he LOST an earlier playoff game those years or did not qualify for the playoffs at all. How does that make him better?

    Also not that Montana is not even in the top 5 winningest QBs of all time (After Brady, its Manning, Favre, Elway, Marino).

    Oh and by the way, 50 of his 201 wins came when tied or losing in 4th quarter. No other QB even has a winning percentage in those.

    There are many great QBs, but Brady is the one guy who combines it all: regular season and postseason success; championships; clutch performances; and hardware:multiple league and SB MVPs.

    There is only one GOAT and his name is Tom Brady.

  143. LyinRogerMustGo says:
    Dec 6, 2016 11:49 AM
    List of playoff appearances by Belichick’s Patriots without Brady as a starter:
    ===================================
    Which is the same as Bill Walsh without Joe Montana as a starter.

    With Terry Bradshaw, Chuck Noll’s Steeler teams were 14-6 in the playoffs with 4 Super Bowl wins.

    Without Bradshaw, 2-2 in the playoffs with no Super Bowl appearances.

  144. PFT should post side-by-side articles, one debating Belichick as the GOAT head coach and one debating Brady as the GOAT QB.

    Then we could see all the same haters posting a “Belichick would be nothing without Brady” argument in one, and a “Brady is just a system QB” argument in the other.

  145. That’s why winning percentage is more important than total wins. When Favre got the record for most wins a few years back did anyone really think he was the best? If a guy plays 8 years and wins the SB every year, is he not better than the guy who plays 15 years and wins 9 times?

    “Montana never “LOST” a Super Bowl because he LOST an earlier playoff game those years or did not qualify for the playoffs at all. How does that make him better?

    Also not that Montana is not even in the top 5 winningest QBs of all time (After Brady, its Manning, Favre, Elway, Marino)”

  146. Fritz,

    BB is great, but is only 18-19 as Pats coach when Brady doesn’t start for him (Brady and BB joined Pats the same year).

    In 2000-2001, BB and Bledsoe went 5-13. Then comes Brady off the bench, with a very similar roster from the previous year (note Pats 1st rdr in 2000 was given to Jets for BB), and he gets them past the favored Rams in New Orleans.

    Not sure what you mean by “winning 4 SBs in 10yrs is more impressive than if it takes 20”. Pats and Brady have gone to 6 SBs 13yrs and won 4. Montana went 4 for 4 in 10 years. If I were an owner or coach or GM, I’d prefer going to 6 in 13, and going to 10 AFC title games in 14 years.

  147. Hahaha, now your using my arguments against “Brady, the system QB” for your own “Belichick is an average coach without Brady” argument? Thanks for the laugh, that was great.

    Belichick, by the way, has been to a record NINE Super Bowls as a coach and is a very respectable 6-3 in them.

    His defensive gameplan for the Giants against the vaunted Bills no huddle offense in the Super Bowl was so revered, the Football Hall of Fame requested it for their archives. That’s never happened before.

    And Hall of Famer Bill Parcells has never been to a Super Bowl (he went to 3 total) without Belichick on his staff.

    But yea, he is overrated.
    ——————————————-
    If the Bills kicker made the fg, we wouldn’t be talking about Belichick and his so-called “genius defensive gameplan” who gave up 371 total yards in under 20 min of gametime. Yeah, he sure is a genius, cheating.

  148. You’re underestimating the importance of having a guy like Belichik and his coaching staff. If he was with the Broncos for SB48 he wouldn’t be on the sideline as the game was starting saying, “It’s noisy…maybe we should have practiced for that…” We all know how the first snap went. Dungy was eventually elected to the HOF but he’s not in Belichik’s class, and Kubiak, Fox and Caldwell aren’t even in Dungy’s class. They’ve all been fired in the past 5 years for poor performance.

    Playoff win percentage is more important than total wins as a measure of quality. Winning 4 Super Bowls in 10 years is more impressive than if it takes 20.
    __________________________________________

    You are overestimating the impact a coach has in game. Having BB in SB 48 would not have made Manning play better. You are citing one play as if that was the defying moment. Manning was a great QB who should have been able to adjust to what the Seahawks were throwing at him (Brady did one year later). He didn’t and his performance showed. I am not trying to take anything away from BB. He is the greatest of all time in my opinion. But you cite all those other coaches being fired. BB was fired from Cleveland and was awful in his first year as the Pats head coach. Brady come along and the rest is history. There is nothing concrete to point to saying Manning would have been any better if he had BB. When it counted in the playoffs, Manning was pedestrian. Again, no coach in the world would have likely made Manning play better in the playoffs. He had the supporting cast he needed to win and fell short too often.

    By the way, Brady not only has more playoff wins then Montana but a better playoff win percentage, so there goes that argument. Montana is 16-7 in the playoffs (.696) and Brady is 22-9 (.710)

  149. GOAT? Really? How many wins would he have without the Pat’s elaborate cheating schemes (only a handful which have been caught)?

    The real GOAT is Joe Montana. Newsflash, like your Pretty Boy Tommy, Joe also won 4 rings and he played in an era when qbs didn’t wear skirts. He also had class, didn’t cheat, didn’t whine incessantly to the Refs, wasn’t controlled by his celebrity wife, fought his own battles, and was a Man. Virtues that Prince Tom will never have. Keep drinking the Koolaide dudes. I know, because Tom is your super hero and you worship him, that makes you super, right? Greatness by cyber association, yes? Sad. One day may you all find your true self and a little self-esteem to go with it and realize there is more to life than being a football fanatic. Thanks Joe, thanks for being the best.

    PS: Bill Walsh could run coaching circles around Belichick. Am I lying?

  150. superpatriotsfan says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:27 PM

    If the Bills kicker made the fg, we wouldn’t be talking about Belichick and his so-called “genius defensive gameplan” who gave up 371 total yards in under 20 min of gametime. Yeah, he sure is a genius, cheating.
    ======

    Not sure what that “cheating” reference is to. It hurts your argument when you don’t give evidence or a source or explanation. What is your evidence of cheating during that Super Bowl?

    And it’s not “we” who are talking about his defensive gameplan, its the Pro Football Hall of Fame, big difference.

    And the Bills were averaging 44.5 ppg during those playoffs and led the NFL is points scored for the season. And the Giants made them look pedestrian.

  151. We’ll have to agree to disagree on the impact of having the GOAT coach. Part of his greatness is how great his players play for him compared to when they’re on other teams. He gets them to exceed their abilities which is clear when you see how they perform before they get to NE and after they’re traded to other teams compared to when they’re on the Patriots. The other area is game planning and Josh McDaniels deserves credit for this too. I’ve been watching football for over 30 years and I’ve never seen a team get their receivers as open as the Patriots. Credit to Brady for putting the ball where it has to go but it’s a great advantage.

    You’re right that Montana is 16-7 in the playoffs but that includes him being 2-2 with the mediocre Chiefs. He was 14-5 with the 49ers. Regardless, Montana clearly had the edge in the Super Bowls. I was never one to make the argument that 4-0 is better than 4-2 but how one performs in the biggest game of the year clearly matters. Montana had a 128 QB rating with 0 interceptions. Brady had a 95 rating with 4 interceptions.

    =======================================

    You are overestimating the impact a coach has in game. Having BB in SB 48 would not have made Manning play better. You are citing one play as if that was the defying moment. Manning was a great QB who should have been able to adjust to what the Seahawks were throwing at him (Brady did one year later). He didn’t and his performance showed. I am not trying to take anything away from BB. He is the greatest of all time in my opinion. . There is nothing concrete to point to saying Manning would have been any better if he had BB.

    By the way, Brady not only has more playoff wins then Montana but a better playoff win percentage, so there goes that argument. Montana is 16-7 in the playoffs (.696) and Brady is 22-9 (.710)

  152. bigbobbysue says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:30 PM

    GOAT? Really? How many wins would he have without the Pat’s elaborate cheating schemes (only a handful which have been caught)?

    The real GOAT is Joe Montana. Newsflash, like your Pretty Boy Tommy, Joe also won 4 rings and he played in an era when qbs didn’t wear skirts. He also had class, didn’t cheat, didn’t whine incessantly to the Refs, wasn’t controlled by his celebrity wife, fought his own battles, and was a Man. Virtues that Prince Tom will never have. Keep drinking the Koolaide dudes. I know, because Tom is your super hero and you worship him, that makes you super, right? Greatness by cyber association, yes? Sad. One day may you all find your true self and a little self-esteem to go with it and realize there is more to life than being a football fanatic. Thanks Joe, thanks for being the best.

    PS: Bill Walsh could run coaching circles around Belichick. Am I lying?
    ==========================

    So just brushing Rice and Romanowski’s admitted cheating under the rug here, huh?

  153. bigbobbysue says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:30 PM
    …..

    PS: Bill Walsh could run coaching circles around Belichick. Am I lying?

    You are either lying or you do not know football history.

    The New York Giants, with Bill Belichick as Defensive Coordinator, defeated the 49ers in the playoffs in 1985 and 1986.

    The 49ers only scored 3 points in both of those games.

    The Giants also defeated the 49ers in 1990 but Seifert was the 49ers Head Coach at that time.

    FWIW, Bill Parcells, the Giants Head Coach at the time, never won a playoff game as Head Coach for any team without Belichick as his D-Coordinator.

  154. frank booth says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:12 PM

    LyinRogerMustGo says:
    Dec 6, 2016 11:49 AM
    List of playoff appearances by Belichick’s Patriots without Brady as a starter:
    ===================================
    Which is the same as Bill Walsh without Joe Montana as a starter.

    With Terry Bradshaw, Chuck Noll’s Steeler teams were 14-6 in the playoffs with 4 Super Bowl wins.

    Without Bradshaw, 2-2 in the playoffs with no Super Bowl appearances.

    —-
    All very true. That’s why they’re all mentioned as all time greats. Brady of course has the rings, the stats and now the wins to put him on top. Another ring gives Brady some daylight between him and everyone else.

    🙂

  155. It’s comical how a lot of people – many I suspect born much more recently than their posts suggest – romanticize or deify the big names of the past as if playing in the past eras made you superior than Tom Brady or anyone else playing in the modern era. 🙂

    Yeah, it must have been real tough to play in an era as a QB where you didn’t need a lot of intelligence, didn’t have to be cerebral and with a playbook of “Run Middle” or “Pass Deep Post Right” as the extent of the complexity of the offense… why would you be? 🙂 I have no doubt a Brady, Manning, Ben or whoever else today would eat those teams up for lunch too.

    And for those who think Brady couldn’t play back then because he supposedly folds when taking hits… Justin Tuck and Michael Bennett are on the record with a very different opinion about the GOAT than that. 🙂 I think I’ll put more stock in what they have to say about it. 🙂

  156. 01 Rams= great team
    03 Panthers=ok QB but rest of team was great. And on PEDs.
    04 Eagles = great team
    07 Giants = great defense good offense
    11 Giants= good team
    14 Seahawks = great team

    07 Giants – HOT team… statistically, they were one of the worst Super Bowl reps ever. 14th offense, 17th defense.

    11 Giants – same story.. 9th offense, 25th defense. 25th! TERRIBLE! Only the ’08 Cardinals were worse.

    Brady lost to two of the worst defenses ever to play in the Super Bowl. And he would have a 3rd Super Bowl loss if not for the dumbest playcall in NFL history.

    Montana wouldn’t have lost to teams like that. He would have ripped them to shreds.

  157. I was never one to make the argument that 4-0 is better than 4-2 but how one performs in the biggest game of the year clearly matters. Montana had a 128 QB rating with 0 interceptions. Brady had a 95 rating with 4 interceptions.


    Not to downplay 128 QB rating but it’s important to note that every single one of Brady’s SB wins were against tremendous football teams. Every. Single. One. There were no tomato cans that Brady beat, they were all legit NFC powerhouses.

    Montana’s teams beat the Dolphins with a young Marino, two Bengals teams where neither of them were known to have very good defense and an overmatched Broncos team. Clearly the parity that exists today between the conferences did not exist back then. Give Brady tomato can opponents and I bet he’d have a very similar passer rating that Montana did. 🙂

    🙂

  158. Montana is 16-7 in the playoffs (.696) and Brady is 22-9 (.710)

    Montana faced MUCH better competetion.

    The Bears, Giants and Redskins combined for 6 Titles over the course of Montana’s career.

    Brady and the Pats have had no such competition. They flat out owned the Colts, and never had any memorable tilts with the Steelers in their Championship seasons.

  159. 07 Giants – HOT team… statistically, they were one of the worst Super Bowl reps ever. 14th offense, 17th defense.

    11 Giants – same story.. 9th offense, 25th defense. 25th! TERRIBLE! Only the ’08 Cardinals were worse.

    Brady lost to two of the worst defenses ever to play in the Super Bowl. And he would have a 3rd Super Bowl loss if not for the dumbest playcall in NFL history.

    Montana wouldn’t have lost to teams like that. He would have ripped them to shreds.

    The 07 Giants pass rush would have eaten Montana for lunch in a Super Bowl game. That was a once in a lifetime performance. I could care less what the stats say, they were a great D that peaked at the right time. Nobody was beating them.

    As for 2011 – Brady was the only reason why the 2011 Pats even got to the Super Bowl. He took them with a historically bad defense (much worse than the Giants were – and the Giants were still a good team). If you don’t believe me then look up the QBs who were able to throw for 350+ on them that year… Orlovsky, Vince Young, Chad Henne, Fitzpatrick.. some real hall of famers there..

  160. With all the “cheater” comments about Brady, do people forget that the 49ers owner, Eddie DeBartolo was suspended for a year, fined $1 million, and convicted of a felony for his role in a fraud scandal.

    With a guy this corrupt running the show, we’re supposed to accept that his team never did anything underhanded or broke any rules? Coincidentally, his run as owner was the best in franchise history, with 5 SB titles. Before and after that, the 49ers have never won a championship.

  161. superpatriotsfan says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:27 PM

    If the Bills kicker made the fg, we wouldn’t be talking about Belichick and his so-called “genius defensive gameplan” who gave up 371 total yards in under 20 min of gametime. Yeah, he sure is a genius, cheating.

    —-
    Hmmm… I’d say I would put your age around 23 at most. Probably younger. It’s clear as day from your post you’re much too young to have watched the game and remembered it accurately.

    Some advice for ya cupcake. There’s much more to being informed than looking up boxscores.

    🙂

  162. bigbobbysue says:
    Dec 6, 2016 1:30 PM
    GOAT? Really? How many wins would he have without the Pat’s elaborate cheating schemes (only a handful which have been caught)?

    PS: Bill Walsh could run coaching circles around Belichick. Am I lying?
    +++++++++++++++++++

    Yes you are. With Belichick as DC the Giants defenses shut down Walsh’s Niners offenses to the point of going 3-0 and allowing a total of 19 points. Walsh cheated, after he retired he even laughingly admitted it. He also had multiple cheating players on his championship teams. But by all means continue to go on about the hero worship and cheating of others.

  163. Montana never lost a 5th or 6th super bowl because he kept losing before he ever got there – much weaker playoff percentage than THE GREATEST ONE.

    Sadly toward the end of his rather brief career, Montana couldn’t even keep his job with the Niners. Always loved Joe and it was kind of painful to realize how early and how much Brady had eclipsed him.

    What’s unprecedented is that Brady always played great in big games even when his protection and defense let him down. He’d have at least 8 rings if everyone played to his level.

    Just played better and longer than anyone in history. 201 reasons and counting why TB is greatest baller ever.

  164. “Brady is the GOAT”

    – Jim Kelly, HOF quarterback
    – Boomer Esiason, 14 year NFL quarterback
    – Brett Favre, just called Tom “the best” on Twitter

    You think these guys might know what they are talking about?

    Or should I listen to some troll Colt fan who has thought for his whole life that football is played indoors?

  165. ibillwt says:
    Dec 6, 2016 7:09 PM
    Montana never lost a 5th or 6th super bowl because he kept losing before he ever got there – much weaker playoff percentage than THE GREATEST ONE.
    Sadly toward the end of his rather brief career, Montana couldn’t even keep his job with the Niners. Always loved Joe and it was kind of painful to realize how early and how much Brady had eclipsed him.
    What’s unprecedented is that Brady always played great in big games even when his protection and defense let him down. He’d have at least 8 rings if everyone played to his level.
    Just played better and longer than anyone in history. 201 reasons and counting why TB is greatest baller ever.
    ==================================
    Montana had a .6957 playoff winning percentage. Brady has a .7097 winning percentage. How is Montana’s much weaker, when one more Brady loss or one more Montana win would put Montana in front?

    Montana’s rather brief career? Montana played 192 games. 15 seasons. Since when is that a brief career?

    At the end of his career with the 49ers, Montana missed 30 straight games due to injury over 2 years and was supplanted by another HOF QB. It’s not as if he lost his job due to performance.

    Brady has not always played great in big games. For example, last year against Denver in the AFC Champ game, he threw for about a 48% completion percentage, 1 TD and 2 INT’s.

    I’m not saying Montana is better- but if you’re going to make a comparison, at least get the facts right and be truthful.

  166. Its not even a “debate” anymore. The “debate” was over after Brady shredded the Legion of Boom in the 4th Quarter to win his 4th ring.

    201 wins? Not done yet? No one’s catching him.

    What did Herm say? “You play to win the game.”

    TB is now officially the ultimate all time WINNER. And he’s done it over a decade and a half with completely DIFFERENT supporting casts around him each time.

  167. Most successful doesn’t necessarily equate to the best.

    The best QB of all time may not have won a single SB. To rank best QBs, you’d need to consider specific QB skills and abilities, not team success.
    ________

    Nope. You “rank” the best QBs by the only stat that matters — winning.

  168. Since Brady got the starting job, the Patriots have gone 14-6 without him.

    14-6.

    Therefore no. He’s not what makes that team win. He’s just great QB who has constantly been starting for great teams.

  169. orrnumberfour says:
    Dec 6, 2016 8:58 PM
    Most successful doesn’t necessarily equate to the best.
    The best QB of all time may not have won a single SB. To rank best QBs, you’d need to consider specific QB skills and abilities, not team success.
    ________
    Nope. You “rank” the best QBs by the only stat that matters — winning.
    ===================================
    Nope. You rank teams by that stat, not QB’s. See, teams garner wins and losses, not a single player. For instance, even if Tom Brady was the only player involved in every score and threw 6 TD passes and 0 INT’s every game in one season, and his defense gave up 50 points each game, New England would be 0-16 and Tom Brady would have 96 TD passes. He would easily be the best QB in the league, but would have the worst record, with zero wins.

  170. “Nope. You “rank” the best QBs by the only stat that matters — winning.”
    ————–

    Entire teams win and lose games. Not QBs.

    Since Brady became the starter, the Patriots are 14-6 when he’s out. He’s not what’s making that team win.

  171. Frankbooth

    Bradys numbers in Denver last year hardly tell the whole story. He was hit more times in that game than any QB in any game in all of 2015. Yet he still clawed his team back in the 2nd half and was within a crappy game by GostowskI and a near miss on a 2 point conversion to getting back to the Super Bowl. It was a gutsy performance against a great D and behind a very beat up Oline

  172. Orr number four, Brady didn’t have much success against the LOB until Jeremy Lane got injured on one of his interceptions. That enabled Brady to pick on his replacement for the comeback. Of course the fact RS and KC played hurt helped too.

    If you only judge QBs by wins then you must think Jim Plunkett and Trent Dilfer are better than Warren Moon, Dan Marino and Jim Kelly.

  173. Ibillwt, Montana was 14-5 with the 49ers in the playoffs…a better win percentage than Brady. And if Montana’s career was brief then it means he’s a better player since he also won 4 Super Bowls in less time.

  174. revelation123 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 9:24 PM

    Entire teams win and lose games. Not QBs.

    Since Brady became the starter, the Patriots are 14-6 when he’s out. He’s not what’s making that team win.

    ===========

    That is omitting the fact that Bledsoe and Belichick went 5-13 before Brady became the starter in ’01. Brady, as a second year pro and who was 4th on the depth chart the year before, took the same roster to a Super Bowl victory over the heavily favored Rams. And Bledsoe was a pretty good QB.

    And to be technical, without Brady starting the Pats are 13-6. They went 10-5 with Cassel starting.

  175. las0023 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 11:16 PM
    Ibillwt, Montana was 14-5 with the 49ers in the playoffs…a better win percentage than Brady. And if Montana’s career was brief then it means he’s a better player since he also won 4 Super Bowls in less time.

    But he only made it to 4. If he was better, wouldn’t he have made it to more?

  176. veddermn8 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 9:28 PM
    Frankbooth
    Bradys numbers in Denver last year hardly tell the whole story. He was hit more times in that game than any QB in any game in all of 2015. Yet he still clawed his team back in the 2nd half and was within a crappy game by GostowskI and a near miss on a 2 point conversion to getting back to the Super Bowl. It was a gutsy performance against a great D and behind a very beat up Oline
    ===================================
    Sounds like a lot of excuses for the greatest of all- time. While his performance may have been gutsy, it wasn’t good. He completed less than half of his passes, and threw 2 INT’s to 1 TD. If he’s the great leader when his team wins, then I guess he’s responsible when his team loses as well, right?

  177. Dan Marino 0-1 vs Doug Williams 1-0 in Super Bowls

    So Doug is> Dan?

    Unitas, Starr, Tarkenton, Namath

    Stabler, Bradshaw, Staubach,Griese

    Montana, Marino, Elway, Aikman

    Brady, Manning, Brees, Rothlisberger/Eli

    Every generation has it’s best. We can nitpick who is the BOAT but clearly Brady is deep into the discussion.

    I’ve seen every one of the above play and TB is as good or better than any of them. 4 rings, 201 wins and never a losing season says so.

  178. frank booth says:
    Dec 7, 2016 10:21 AM
    veddermn8 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 9:28 PM
    Frankbooth
    Bradys numbers in Denver last year hardly tell the whole story. He was hit more times in that game than any QB in any game in all of 2015. Yet he still clawed his team back in the 2nd half and was within a crappy game by GostowskI and a near miss on a 2 point conversion to getting back to the Super Bowl. It was a gutsy performance against a great D and behind a very beat up Oline
    ===================================
    Sounds like a lot of excuses for the greatest of all- time. While his performance may have been gutsy, it wasn’t good. He completed less than half of his passes, and threw 2 INT’s to 1 TD. If he’s the great leader when his team wins, then I guess he’s responsible when his team loses as well, right?

    Montana wasn’t even the best QB on his team when he asked to be traded to KC.

  179. Ibillwt, Montana was 14-5 with the 49ers in the playoffs…a better win percentage than Brady. And if Montana’s career was brief then it means he’s a better player since he also won 4 Super Bowls in less time.
    __________________________________________

    But he was 2-2 when he went to KC. When you factor that in, he actually has a lower playoff win percentage than Brady. You can’t just leave out 4 playoff games for Montana and do the comparison. If that’s the case, then I will just arbitrarily pick a few playoff games Brady lost and not include them when calculating win percentage.

    Plus, the fact that Montana was 14-5 with SF then 2-2 with KC, doesn’t that more suggest there were other variables to SF winning those playoff games since once Montana left he was more pedestrian in the playoffs?

  180. frank booth says:
    Dec 7, 2016 10:21 AM

    veddermn8 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 9:28 PM
    Frankbooth
    Bradys numbers in Denver last year hardly tell the whole story. He was hit more times in that game than any QB in any game in all of 2015. Yet he still clawed his team back in the 2nd half and was within a crappy game by GostowskI and a near miss on a 2 point conversion to getting back to the Super Bowl. It was a gutsy performance against a great D and behind a very beat up Oline
    ===================================
    Sounds like a lot of excuses for the greatest of all- time. While his performance may have been gutsy, it wasn’t good. He completed less than half of his passes, and threw 2 INT’s to 1 TD. If he’s the great leader when his team wins, then I guess he’s responsible when his team loses as well, right?
    ======

    So for any QB to be the GOAT, including the NFL all time leader in playoff 4th quarter comebacks, they have to win every game? According to that logic, there can be no GOAT, or would it have to be Bob Griese and Earl Morall? I’m just providing a little context as Brady was pretty good in that second half when he was running for his life. And if Gostowski doesn’t miss the PAT that game is completely different. But Pats lost, it hurt, kudos to that fantastic Denver D.

  181. Nope. You “rank” the best QBs by the only stat that matters — winning.

    Nope.. wins are a team stat.

    A great number of QBs I’ve seen could win under “The Patriot Way.”

  182. yoursoulcollector says:
    Dec 7, 2016 10:49 AM
    It is unquestioned that Shady is the GOAT of Cheetahs! Move over Bonds, Rose and everybody else. Shady takes the crown!
    _________________________________________
    Given all the Souls Brady has collected over the last 20 yrs, I can safely say he’s got your’s too.

    Having said that, it was a close count, and there were thousands of contenders,but you are the GOAT when it comes to bitterness. TRUTH

  183. aarons444 says:
    Dec 7, 2016 12:04 PM

    Nope.. wins are a team stat.

    A great number of QBs I’ve seen could win under “The Patriot Way.”

    ====

    The Belichick “Patriot Way” has only produced an 18-19 record without Brady starting.

    If any QB would have been able to produce 10 AFC title game trips in 14 yrs and 6 SB trips with 4 wins, Belichick would have been traded Brady for draft picks long ago to save cap room.

    That is the “Patriot Way”.

  184. No he is not.

    He is not because his game doesn’t translate into past decades. Back when QBs could regularly get pounded after the ball was released. Back when QBs would take hits to the head. Back when QBs had to take serious amounts of punishment.

    Tom would not be able to pout and cry to the refs about flags. He would be taking hits high and low regularly. Also, when Tom gets hit, he gets rattled, and he would have been taking a lot more hits.

    So no, he’s not. He’s a great QB who can excel with a clean jersey, operating on a team where he has players at least 25% more effective (as a whole) than the rest of the league due to the discipline Belicheck enforces.

    Take him away from the NE team today and stick him on other teams, especially with crappy teams and he would not be this successful. Make him play in the conditions of 60, 50, 40, 30 years ago and you won’t see his current level of production. And that includes putting him on dynasty teams of those eras.

    It is a radically different game for a number of reasons. That makes this GOAT conversation a pointless exercise, if you actually think and try to be objective and not just look at his current stats and think they translate. Because they don’t and never will.

  185. aarons444 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 3:59 PM
    Montana is 16-7 in the playoffs (.696) and Brady is 22-9 (.710)

    Montana faced MUCH better competetion.

    The Bears, Giants and Redskins combined for 6 Titles over the course of Montana’s career.

    So there were only 4 good teams back then is what you’re telling us. Da Bears won one SB Giants 2 and Skins 3.

    Steelers went to 3 and won 2, Giants won 2, Ravens won 1 over the course of Brady’s career. Indy won one and went to 2 and was a perennial powerhouse. NE regularly played both Indy, Ravens & Steelers during this time frame.

    And Montana had NO & Atl in their division both of whom had quite a few under 500 years.

    How do you quantify that Montana’s competition as MUCH better?

  186. blessedunliketherest says:
    Dec 7, 2016 11:05 AM

    Plus, the fact that Montana was 14-5 with SF then 2-2 with KC, doesn’t that more suggest there were other variables to SF winning those playoff games since once Montana left he was more pedestrian in the playoffs?

    ————
    c’mon now, we’re not supposed to apply logic to internet debates.

  187. He only had 10 years on a contending team. Winning it 40% of the time is a better record than Brady has.

    =========================================

    Lemmy Aksyadis says:
    Dec 7, 2016 10:18 AM
    las0023 says:
    Dec 6, 2016 11:16 PM
    Ibillwt, Montana was 14-5 with the 49ers in the playoffs…a better win percentage than Brady. And if Montana’s career was brief then it means he’s a better player since he also won 4 Super Bowls in less time.

    But he only made it to 4. If he was better, wouldn’t he have made it to more?

  188. excusemewhileiwhipthisoutagain says:
    Dec 7, 2016 12:42 PM
    No he is not.

    He is not because his game doesn’t translate into past decades. Back when QBs could regularly get pounded after the ball was released

    Are you serious? Have you ever watched a Pats game? Have you seen how many times Brady get nailed well after the ball is gone? A LOT more times than he gets RTP calls. Even affirmed haters like Simms & Collinsworth have noticed. And BTW, even if there is a RTP call, he still got hit.

    Having an opinion is one thing but please, I’ve been watching for 50 years so lose the rose colored glasses. What you’re saying just isn’t so. Back in the day, NE wasn’t on TV much so I watched every other team/game that was on. Enough with the old “they were tougher then” meme. Just look at player stats, height, weight, 40 times, vertical leap, bench press. Today’s players are lethal weapons.

  189. That’s been the point all along. It’s more about the team than any one player, even the QB. Montana and Brady were both late draft picks. They could have been drafted by Detroit or Cleveland and neither would have any rings and no one would argue either one is the GOAT.

    “345snarkavenue says:
    Dec 7, 2016 1:01 PM
    blessedunliketherest says:
    Dec 7, 2016 11:05 AM

    Plus, the fact that Montana was 14-5 with SF then 2-2 with KC, doesn’t that more suggest there were other variables to SF winning those playoff games since once Montana left he was more pedestrian in the playoffs?

    ————
    c’mon now, we’re not supposed to apply logic to internet debates.”

  190. excusemewhileiwhipthisoutagain says:
    Dec 7, 2016 12:42 PM

    That makes this GOAT conversation a pointless exercise, if you actually think and try to be objective and not just look at his current stats and think they translate. Because they don’t and never will.

    ======

    Stats don’t translate, but wins do. And its harder to win now with the salary cap, more effective drug testing, more player injury advocacy (esp for concussions) and a much more diluted talent pool.

  191. The Giants, Redskins and Bears of the 1980s were better than any team Brady’s faced. Just because the current Steelers won 2 Super Bowls and the 1980s Bears won 1 doesn’t make Pittsburgh better. Belichik’s Giants would have beaten Coughlin’s Giants despite them both winning 2 Super Bowls.

    ———

    Montana faced MUCH better competetion.

    The Bears, Giants and Redskins combined for 6 Titles over the course of Montana’s career.

    So there were only 4 good teams back then is what you’re telling us. Da Bears won one SB Giants 2 and Skins 3.

    Steelers went to 3 and won 2, Giants won 2, Ravens won 1 over the course of Brady’s career. Indy won one and went to 2 and was a perennial powerhouse. NE regularly played both Indy, Ravens & Steelers during this time frame.

    And Montana had NO & Atl in their division both of whom had quite a few under 500 years.

    How do you quantify that Montana’s competition as MUCH better?

  192. Let’s not forget one very important item, instant replay challenges. Those of us old enough to remember know that many a game was won/lost on bad calls. What didn’t change was reputation calls, i.e. “favored” teams Like Dallas & SF got calls, others, not so much.

  193. How do you quantify that Montana’s competition as MUCH better?

    You quoted the very reasons I feel that way.

    The 1985 Bears were a historically great team, some say the best ever.

    The ’86 Giants were a historically great defense.

    Joe Gibbs won 3 Titles with the Redskins during Montanas run with the 9ers. He LOST a 4th Super Bowl.

    From 1981-1991 those 3 teams won 6 Titles. The 9ers won 4, the Raiders were the only AFC team to win in that span. Each and every year the NFC was a brawl at the top of the Conference.

    Name a great team the Pats had to contend with? There are none! Belichick owned the Colts, and the Steelers great teams never went toe to toe with teh Patriots.

  194. Belichik’s Giants would have beaten Coughlin’s Giants despite them both winning 2 Super Bowls.

    That’s not saying much. The ’07 & ’11 Giants were 2 of the worst Super Bowl teams ever.

    Brady lost to a 17th and 25th ranked defense in the Super Bowl. That’s quite a feat.

  195. NE regularly played both Indy, Ravens & Steelers during this time frame.

    The Patriots OWNED the Colts.. it’s pointless to say otherwise.

    The Steelers and Patriots have only met twice in the Playoffs the Brady era.. only once with Big Ben as QB, his ROOKIE year at that. Their great teams don’t align.

    Brady is 2-2 against Baltimore, with 2 pretty lopsided defeats.

    .. The Patriots have simply had their way in the AFC with little memorable competition.

  196. veddermn8 says:
    ======
    So for any QB to be the GOAT, including the NFL all time leader in playoff 4th quarter comebacks, they have to win every game? According to that logic, there can be no GOAT, or would it have to be Bob Griese and Earl Morall? I’m just providing a little context as Brady was pretty good in that second half when he was running for his life. And if Gostowski doesn’t miss the PAT that game is completely different. But Pats lost, it hurt, kudos to that fantastic Denver D.
    ===================================
    Not at all. But the OP that I responded to said that Brady played great in every big game, which is not the case. If you’re following along, I’ve never ever said that Brady isn’t the greatest. I don’t pretend to know who is, but it’s pretty difficult to compare players across different eras, especially with so many variables such as coaching, offensive systems, supporting cast, and the nature of the game. For example, the league is pass-happy now compared to the 80’s.

  197. if Montana is so great how come he only made it to 4 super bowls ? Why not more?? Tom did make it to 6, losing 2 due to one miracle catch and one key drop.

  198. Montana only played 9 years on a good team and had to face some all time great teams like the Bears, Belichik Giants and Redskins.

    =========================================

    jmdanieli says:
    Dec 7, 2016 4:01 PM
    if Montana is so great how come he only made it to 4 super bowls ? Why not more?? Tom did make it to 6, losing 2 due to one miracle catch and one key drop.

  199. if Montana is so great how come he only made it to 4 super bowls ? Why not more??

    Beacuse he had other great teams to contend with and against.

    Brady did not.

  200. aarons444 says:
    Dec 7, 2016 4:34 PM

    if Montana is so great how come he only made it to 4 super bowls ? Why not more??

    Beacuse he had other great teams to contend with and against.

    Brady did not.
    ======

    Not true, and Montana played with several other HOFers, no salary cap, and had fewer teams to compete against or to share the talent pool with.

    It is indisputably harder for an NFL team to win a Super Bowl and to be a contender year after year in this era than any other. Brady is the only continuity between the lines for the Pats in this era, he must be doing something right.

  201. The best QB that I have seen play is Joe Montana. Not to take anything away from Brady but Montana was in a class all by himself. The Patsies have proven that they can still win with other QB’s ala Matt Cassel and now Jimmy Garappolo. Montana was it until the 49ers acquired Steve Young. Montana also had some great Cowboys, Bears aand Giants teams to contend with. Brady not so much. The game is also now completely different w than it was during Montana’s career. Very hard to compare the two by statistics alone.

  202. aarons444 says:
    Dec 7, 2016 2:59 PM

    That’s not saying much. The ’07 & ’11 Giants were 2 of the worst Super Bowl teams ever.

    Brady lost to a 17th and 25th ranked defense in the Super Bowl. That’s quite a feat.

    ======

    Not nearly the full picture. ’07 Giants D-line was absolutely monstrous. They led the NFL in sacks (by SIX!!) and were 7th in yds/gm. And it took a fringe player making a freak catch and who never played again to beat them. It was a great, close game and the Giants deserved to be there.

    In ’11 the Giants were second in sacks and again had a great line. Not as good as ’07’s D, but still terrorized QB’s. And again, it came down to one play that didn’t go the Pats way. That one hurt.

    But Brady did beat the #1 defense in ’14, #2 defense in ’04, and the #7 defense in ’03 and ’01. So he has beat some really tough defenses.

  203. Shame on the nerd who decided that QBs should get “wins” like starting pitchers. If Tom Brady were on a team with a terrible OL, brick-handed receivers and a bad defense, he would have a losing record. STOP IT.

  204. I think Brady is in the conversation but then again I don’t like that type of conversation to begin with. So many eras with so many different factors. ..
    But I will say this; every QB has a list of bad games, mediocre games, good games and great statistical games and then there are the few that also have the “magical” ones. For me the definition of a great QB isn’t about how many great statistical games a QB has in his career but how FEW bad and mediocre games he has combined with how many career defining magical games he has; consistency plus charisma.
    You can count on one hand how many bad games Brady has had and as far as his mediocre games it is less than twenty. No other QB has that kind of low “negative” percentage. Now magical games are something that can’t be defined by numbers; they can only be defined by the eyes and the chill up your spine. Brady has had as many of them as anyone you want to match him up with.
    So Brady may not be the GOAT but he is always in the conversation.

  205. canedaddy says:
    Dec 7, 2016 5:47 PM
    Shame on the nerd who decided that QBs should get “wins” like starting pitchers. If Tom Brady were on a team with a terrible OL, brick-handed receivers and a bad defense, he would have a losing record. STOP IT.

    —–

    That’s absolutely ridiculous. He has been on teams with horrible O-lines, no-name receivers, and on teams that couldn’t stop your grandma from scoring–and he’s won with all of them.

    The one constant in his corner has been the coach, who game plans with the best of them, and has always had guys who bought into the way to play in NE–disciplined technique/low penalties, low/no turnovers, better depth than you with guys who can play multiple positions well, and Brady’s skill.

    In most NFL games, you can usually count on your opponent to mess up by not adhering to the principles stated above–and then the Patriots led by Brady and Belichick have got you. They wait for you to predictably implode, for the most part, and then they capitalize on it.

  206. So Arron’s 44 you think the Ravens, Colts, Broncos & Steelers weren’t any good???? That’s an insult!!! That’s why TB12 made it to 6 Super Bowls per your logic, because other teams weren’t good????
    SMH, crazy!!

  207. The credit goes to Belichik for maintaining a great team year after year regardless of the players. Moss was gone, but they got Gronk, etc… Brady’s always had a great team and coaching staff around him for 16 years. No other QB can make that claim.

    ========================================

    veddermn8 says:
    Dec 7, 2016 4:49 PM

    ======

    Not true, and Montana played with several other HOFers, no salary cap, and had fewer teams to compete against or to share the talent pool with.

    It is indisputably harder for an NFL team to win a Super Bowl and to be a contender year after year in this era than any other. Brady is the only continuity between the lines for the Pats in this era, he must be doing something right.

  208. They were good, but they weren’t in the same class as the 1980s Bears, Redskins and Giants.

    =========================================

    So Arron’s 44 you think the Ravens, Colts, Broncos & Steelers weren’t any good???? That’s an insult!!! That’s why TB12 made it to 6 Super Bowls per your logic, because other teams weren’t good????

  209. ikeclanton says:
    Dec 7, 2016 6:37 PM
    canedaddy says:
    Dec 7, 2016 5:47 PM
    Shame on the nerd who decided that QBs should get “wins” like starting pitchers. If Tom Brady were on a team with a terrible OL, brick-handed receivers and a bad defense, he would have a losing record. STOP IT.
    —–
    That’s absolutely ridiculous. He has been on teams with horrible O-lines, no-name receivers, and on teams that couldn’t stop your grandma from scoring–and he’s won with all of them.
    ==================================Since Brady’s been starting, Pats defense has averaged 8th in points. He won Super Bowls when his defense was in the Top 10, like other SB winning QB’s. He’s had plenty of good receivers, as well as one of the most prolific tight ends ever, and he runs a system as efficiently as any QB has.

    He’s certainly one of the great ones, but no more special than guys like Montana and some others.

  210. The credit goes to Belichik for maintaining a great team year after year regardless of the players. Moss was gone, but they got Gronk, etc… Brady’s always had a great team and coaching staff around him for 16 years. No other QB can make that claim.
    __________________________________________

    The lengths some people go to in order to discredit Brady are pathetic. It doesn’t matter how good the coach is. Without a QB who able to execute, the best coach on earth won’t make a difference. Name me one of the top tier QBs that never had a great team and players around him? Honestly, you can’t because there are none. Montana had Jerry Rice. Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. And on and on. Jerry Rice is the best WR of all time. Harrison and Wayne are/will be HOFs. Brady had Moss for a year and has had multiple seasons where Gronk has missed a majority of games due to injury. Brady has dealt with more of a revolving door on offense then any other QB and continues to dominate. You look foolish with comments like that.

    Montana left the 49ers and they continued to win with Steve Young. Are you comfortable saying all the credit should go to the 49ers organization? How about the Colts? They continue to win with Andrew Luck. I guess we need to take credit away from Manning for all those years.

  211. Since Brady’s been starting, Pats defense has averaged 8th in points. He won Super Bowls when his defense was in the Top 10, like other SB winning QB’s. He’s had plenty of good receivers, as well as one of the most prolific tight ends ever, and he runs a system as efficiently as any QB has.

    He’s certainly one of the great ones, but no more special than guys like Montana and some others.”

    Good receivers in Super Bowl Seasons? 2001 – Troy Brown and David Patten, 2003 – Deion Branch, David Givens, Bethel Johnson, 2004- Branch, Givens, Johnson… I can go on.

    He had a very limited window with Moss.

    Welker and Edelman are the 2 best receivers he played with.

    Brady only had his ‘Jerry Rice’ for 2 full seasons

    There is no Marvin Harrison into Reggie Wayne (both sure Hall of Famers).

    You can argue coaching or defense, but you can never say Brady competed with these other QB’s in a WR Arms Race. The fact that he has the wins, the winning percentage, the rings, and is within reasonable striking distance of these other QB’s (Favre, Manning, Marino) career stats shows he is the total package.

  212. What he’s done better than any QB I’ve ever seen is get more out of the players around him.

  213. There’s a lot of self defeating and circular arguments being made in favor of Montana over Brady. The Belichick argument is preposterous. Montana had Walsh, a QB is obviously going to be benefited more by having the best offensive coach of the SB era vs the best defensive coach. Being undefeated in SB’s ignores all the times he didn’t get there as well as his having double the number of one and dones. Of course his Chiefs teams were contenders, not only did they have him under center but they went to the AFCCG his first year there for crying out loud. The quality of competition argument is even weaker, Montana faced that competition every year with an infinitely superior roster to any of Brady’s and of the 4 AFC opponents he defeated in the SB none were serious threats. In the 80’s as long as the opponent wasn’t the Raiders the NFC owned the SB. If you don’t see the inherent advantage Montana had by being on a loaded team with a free spending owner with no cap or FA you do not understand the dynamics of Pro Football. Not only has Brady done more for longer, he did it with less, defeating the parity objective of the cap combined with FA. The only two fair measures of comparison between eras that stands the test of time is winning percentage as compared to peers and playoff wins/winning % because that’s where a QB was playing against the best competition his era had to offer. In other words how much did he dominate his era in comparison to his peers and what did he do against the best of his era? The real argument for best ever isn’t Brady vs Montana, it’s Brady vs Starr. I have watched all 3 in their primes. I loved me some Joe Cool and preferred watching him play over watching Starr or Brady but he finishes no higher than 3rd in the best of the modern era conversation.

  214. The Patriots have simply had their way in the AFC with little memorable competition.
    ——————————————
    Wow talk about rose colored glasses.
    Yes, Brady and the Pats owned the Colts, but that doesn’t mean they were not good competition. Did I miss the year that Brady defeated 2 MVP’s in back to back games in the playoffs?

    I guess SEA wasn’t a good defense either.

  215. hlna55 says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:37 PM
    Montana never LOST a super bowl. And he played in an era that allowed defenders to actually HIT the quarterback. Brady has lost the big game twice and I won’t even mention the rest of his long sorted story.

    If I had to win tomoworr or lose everything, no way I take anyone other than Joe Montana under centre.

    ———–
    So you are saying that it is better to fail to even get your team to the SB than to get there and lose? Sorry, this makes no sense.

  216. las0023 says:
    Dec 7, 2016 6:55 PM

    The credit goes to Belichik for maintaining a great team year after year regardless of the players. Moss was gone, but they got Gronk, etc… Brady’s always had a great team and coaching staff around him for 16 years. No other QB can make that claim.
    ==================

    Montana had it for 10 and had continuity which makes it much easier. Brady has constantly had to break in new guys. In ’06, when the Colts beat them in the AFC title game, Brady’s best WR was Reche Caldwell. And he dropped an easy pass that would have iced the Colts in that game and sent the Pats to the SB. I think Rice makes that play.

    If it was just Belichick’s genius that created the Pats, why is Brady the only constant? Why didn’t Belichick sell him off for draft picks to the save cap space like he has for countless other players over the years? Because Brady is one of the greatest ever, possibly the greatest. Certainly has had the greatest career ever.

  217. Bradshaw faced hall of fame QB’s and legendary defenses in 3 of his Superbowls including the Dallas doomsday defense. That puts Bradshaw above Brady as a big game QB.

  218. Not true, and Montana played with several other HOFers, no salary cap, and had fewer teams to compete against or to share the talent pool with.

    Jerry Rice, and who else?

    Ronnie Lott and Charles Haley on D, but that was it, beacuse Roger Craig won’t be elected at this point.

    That’s only 1 more than Brady (Moss, Gronk)

  219. So Arron’s 44 you think the Ravens, Colts, Broncos & Steelers weren’t any good????

    No.

    I said Montana’s 49ers played against competition that was historically great, especially in the mid-1980s.

  220. Flacco is a better QB all time.

    1 Legitimate Superbowl to Zero Legit Superbowls.

    Brady is a fraud that should have been banned for life. He’s going to wish on Monday that he just retired during his punishment when he’s held under 100 yards passing and sacked 8 times. He’s going to beg his daddy Suggs to stop.

  221. aarons444 says:
    Dec 8, 2016 10:26 AM

    Jerry Rice, and who else?

    Ronnie Lott and Charles Haley on D, but that was it, beacuse Roger Craig won’t be elected at this point.

    That’s only 1 more than Brady (Moss, Gronk)

    =====

    Add up the years. Brady and Moss had 2 full years together, that’s it . Gronk for 6 seasons if you’re really generous (if you add the half seasons for ’13 and ’16 as 1, but ’16 Gronk played sparingly in a couple of games and Brady was out 4). So you have 8 there. And you might be able to add Ty Law and Revis someday, which is 5 more. So 13 seasons.

    Add up Rice (7yrs), Haley(6yrs) , Lott (10yrs) and you get… quite a few more. And you also have Fred Dean (5yrs). That gives you 4 HOFers playing 28 seasons total and many of them overlapping. 80’s 49ers were stacked and had no cap.

  222. flaccojumpball says:
    Dec 8, 2016 10:54 AM

    Flacco is a better QB all time.

    1 Legitimate Superbowl to Zero Legit Superbowls.

    Brady is a fraud that should have been banned for life. He’s going to wish on Monday that he just retired during his punishment when he’s held under 100 yards passing and sacked 8 times. He’s going to beg his daddy Suggs to stop.
    ======

    cough, deer antler spray, cough, cough.

    Flacco is the most overpaid athlete in American sports. He is still cashing checks for one playoff run and has been Jay Cutler before and since.

    Brady can’t wait to unleash Malcolm Mitchell on your pigeons. (but seriously, this should be a great game)

  223. Absolutely, it takes a great QB and I’m not disputing that Brady is among the best. But to call someone the GOAT, we have to look at the variables. Montana, Rodgers and Manning may have had more receiving talent (except Tight End) but I would rather have Brady’s receivers running routes from Belichik and McDaniels.

    Steve Young was one of the most talented QBs of all time, and would have won multiple Super Bowls if he was on the 80s 49ers or Belichik Patriots. The Colts winning percentage has declined markably since Manning left.

    ========================================

    The lengths some people go to in order to discredit Brady are pathetic. It doesn’t matter how good the coach is. Without a QB who able to execute, the best coach on earth won’t make a difference. Name me one of the top tier QBs that never had a great team and players around him? Honestly, you can’t because there are none. Montana had Jerry Rice. Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. And on and on. Jerry Rice is the best WR of all time. Harrison and Wayne are/will be HOFs. Brady had Moss for a year and has had multiple seasons where Gronk has missed a majority of games due to injury. Brady has dealt with more of a revolving door on offense then any other QB and continues to dominate. You look foolish with comments like that.

    Montana left the 49ers and they continued to win with Steve Young. Are you comfortable saying all the credit should go to the 49ers organization? How about the Colts? They continue to win with Andrew Luck. I guess we need to take credit away from Manning for all those years.

    ________________________________________

    The credit goes to Belichik for maintaining a great team year after year regardless of the players. Moss was gone, but they got Gronk, etc… Brady’s always had a great team and coaching staff around him for 16 years. No other QB can make that claim.

  224. las0023 says:
    Dec 8, 2016 11:52 AM

    The credit goes to Belichik for maintaining a great team year after year regardless of the players. Moss was gone, but they got Gronk, etc… Brady’s always had a great team and coaching staff around him for 16 years. No other QB can make that claim.

    ====

    Belichick has had one of the greatest QBs of all time on his roster for 16 years. No other coach can make that claim. If Brady was interchangeable with another QB, he would have been traded for picks to save cap space looooooooong ago. Brady deserves just as much credit. He is the only one BB kept around.

    And Brady won quite a few games before Moss came along. He even came within a Reche Caldwell dropped pass (who was his #1 receiver that year) to getting back to the SB in ’06. Reche Caldwell. Not exactly Jerry Rice or John Taylor

  225. Absolutely, it takes a great QB and I’m not disputing that Brady is among the best. But to call someone the GOAT, we have to look at the variables. Montana, Rodgers and Manning may have had more receiving talent (except Tight End) but I would rather have Brady’s receivers running routes from Belichik and McDaniels.

    Steve Young was one of the most talented QBs of all time, and would have won multiple Super Bowls if he was on the 80s 49ers or Belichik Patriots. The Colts winning percentage has declined markably since Manning left.
    ________________________________________

    What is your point? Brady has the advantage with less talented guys because McDaniels calls the routes? That gives him the advantage over having guys like Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc? That is absurd.

  226. Montana never LOST a super bowl. And he played in an era that allowed defenders to actually HIT the quarterback. Brady has lost the big game twice and I won’t even mention the rest of his long sorted story.

    If I had to win tomoworr or lose everything, no way I take anyone other than Joe Montana under centre.

    ———————

    No he didn’t lose a Super Bowl. He just lost a bunch of playoff games before getting there. Montana 16-7 in the playoffs (.696). Brady 22-9 (.710).

    Montana, Marino, etc. also played in an era where defenses weren’t geared almost exclusively towards defending the pass, with all the money spent on shutdown corners and pass rushers.

    When there’s a market inefficiency, people exploit it, and then that inefficiency goes away it becomes just as tough for everyone as it used to be, until the next inefficiency opens up.

  227. Montana had it for 10 and had continuity which makes it much easier. Brady has constantly had to break in new guys.

    Wrong.

    Montanas 1981 offense had been completely turned over by the end of his career.

    Roger Craig – drafted in 1983
    Jerry Rice – 1985
    Rathman, Taylor – 1986
    Brent Jones – free agent, 1986
    None of the 5 OL on the ’89 team won 4 Titles

    The Pats and 9ers are eerily similar. Walsh-Montnana, Brady-Belichick being the stallwarts.

  228. Bradshaw faced hall of fame QB’s and legendary defenses in 3 of his Superbowls including the Dallas doomsday defense. That puts Bradshaw above Brady as a big game QB.

    I’m glad Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson couldn’t co-exist. Those Cowboy teams may have won 6 Titles in the 1990s if they had and everybody would be licking Troy Aikmans boots.

  229. Disagree. In the playoffs it’s more important to have a great defensive coach than an offensive one.

    The Chiefs were a good team in the regular season but never as good as Brady’s Patriots. The only time they even made it to the NFCCG was with Montana

    The Broncos weren’t much of a threat but the 80s Bengals and 14-2 Dolphins that Montana faced were every bit as good as the Panther and Eagles team that Brady faced. But the point is Montana had to face historically great teams like the Bears, Giants and Redskins in his own conference. Name me any team Brady’s beaten that good…

    Success in the salary cap era is owed to management for continuously restocking players to maintain a great team. Whether it’s the Packers getting Rodgers when they knew Favre was nearing the end or the Patriots getting Gronk after trading Moss, it’s not the QB drafting wisely and making smart trades.

    Wins are one of many ways to appraise a QB but unless you think Jim Plunkett was better than Dan Marino it’s not even close to being the only one.

    ————————————————-

    There’s a lot of self defeating and circular arguments being made in favor of Montana over Brady. The Belichick argument is preposterous. Montana had Walsh, a QB is obviously going to be benefited more by having the best offensive coach of the SB era vs the best defensive coach. Being undefeated in SB’s ignores all the times he didn’t get there as well as his having double the number of one and dones. Of course his Chiefs teams were contenders, not only did they have him under center but they went to the AFCCG his first year there for crying out loud. The quality of competition argument is even weaker, Montana faced that competition every year with an infinitely superior roster to any of Brady’s and of the 4 AFC opponents he defeated in the SB none were serious threats. In the 80’s as long as the opponent wasn’t the Raiders the NFC owned the SB. If you don’t see the inherent advantage Montana had by being on a loaded team with a free spending owner with no cap or FA you do not understand the dynamics of Pro Football. Not only has Brady done more for longer, he did it with less, defeating the parity objective of the cap combined with FA. The only two fair measures of comparison between eras that stands the test of time is winning percentage as compared to peers and playoff wins/winning % because that’s where a QB was playing against the best competition his era had to offer.

  230. As a die hard Packer fan who grew up rooting for Favre and being schooled by my elders in Bart Starr (5 NFL titles BTW), pains me to say Brady is ahead of those guys. I’d probably still take Joe Montana in a time machine fantasy draft, but Brady has as good a case as anybody. He didn’t have anyone comparable to Jerry Rice out wide other than a brief window with Randy Moss. He’s made due with rosters flipping over ~3 times and made all kinds of crappy wideouts look respectable.

    Tough to compare across eras with different rule changes. Modern QBs are subjected to about 20% of the abuse of guys in the 60s and 60% of the abust of guys in the 80s.

  231. True, but Montana never had a tight end as good as Gronk and while slot receivers weren’t widely used in the 80s Wes Welker is a 5 time pro bowler.

    “Montana didn’t have anyone comparable to Jerry Rice out wide other than a brief window with Randy Moss.”

  232. trollaikman8 says:
    Dec 8, 2016 2:55 PM
    He’s definitely top 3.
    Montana
    Brady
    Romo
    Well, in any order really.
    ===================================
    Montana and Brady in any order, actually.

    Romo might be in the Top 30. Might.

  233. There are too many variables to definitely decide who’s the best at any position in any sport. He’s one of the greatest QBs ever. So is Brees, Rogers, Roethlisberger etc…

  234. Again I ask, Bradshaw faced and beat hall of famer Staubach And the Dallas doomsday defense twice, and hall of famer Fran Tarkenton and the purple people eater defense. Who has Brady faced?

    Bradshaw/Montana, best big game QB’s.

  235. Yes and no.

    Yes for obvious reasons; it’s why we are discussing it.

    No because I’m not at all sure where Brady’s greatness ends and Belichick’s begins. They’re both great in every sense, but I think Belichick is more great.

  236. aarons444 says:
    Dec 8, 2016 12:43 PM

    Wrong.

    Montanas 1981 offense had been completely turned over by the end of his career.

    Roger Craig – drafted in 1983
    Jerry Rice – 1985
    Rathman, Taylor – 1986
    Brent Jones – free agent, 1986
    None of the 5 OL on the ’89 team won 4 Titles

    The Pats and 9ers are eerily similar. Walsh-Montnana, Brady-Belichick being the stallwarts.

    ==============

    Montana’s 49ers didn’t have the burden of the salary cap or modern free agency, thus more continuity.

  237. I love to read arguments like this, all of you are comical, like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over who’s daddy is best. You’ll never convince each other who’s right because no one is. You ALL cherry pick stats and facts that fit your argument and ignore others that don’t. Who cares which is better, they’re both great. Just enjoy watching the one who’s still playing and watch replays of the other when you can. And try to do something a little more interesting and impressive with your own life than try to win meaningless arguments with total strangers on the internet.

    Florio loves all of you.

  238. I am not a fan of the Patriots in any sense of the word… in fact, I am overjoyed any time they lose.

    Nonetheless, Brady is the greatest QB of all time in my eyes. It’s subjective, I know, but there seems to be a consensus based on the results of the poll in this article. Legitimate arguments can be made more many others, but if the majority of people think he is the best then that will be his legacy.

  239. switchwitch59 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 9:34 AM

    I love to read arguments like this, all of you are comical, like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over who’s daddy is best. You’ll never convince each other who’s right because no one is. You ALL cherry pick stats and facts that fit your argument and ignore others that don’t. Who cares which is better, they’re both great. Just enjoy watching the one who’s still playing and watch replays of the other when you can. And try to do something a little more interesting and impressive with your own life than try to win meaningless arguments with total strangers on the internet.

    Florio loves all of you.
    =========

    Saying “sports arguments are pointless, just enjoy the games” sure sounds like a sports argument.

  240. The biggest cheater ever with the most spoiled fanbase ever.
    __________________________________________

    How did he cheat? If you throw accusations, you should be able to support them. So again I ask, how did he cheat? Anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense now knows there was no manual deflation of those footballs. I will not hold my breath given there is no rationale support to back up your claim.

    Playing devil’s advocate, even if Brady were 100% guilty as charged, you honestly think that’s equivalent of the biggest cheating scandal? Your blind hatred for the Pats is too obvious. I imagine you give Peyton a pass for PEDs? And Rodgers a pass for admitting to intentionally overinflating? And Montana a pass for claiming “if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying”

  241. Remember that we all live in the moment. People thought Marino was the best of all time, then Montana, then Rodgers, then Manning, now Brady. Montana always should have been rated higher than Manning and Rodgers but in 2011-2014 many people thought otherwise when they had their record years. Obviously Brady will go down as one of the GOATs but unless he wins another Super Bowl the results will eventually even out between him and Montana.

    ========================================

    Lisa_the_Greek says:
    Dec 9, 2016 11:27 AM
    I am not a fan of the Patriots in any sense of the word… in fact, I am overjoyed any time they lose.

    Nonetheless, Brady is the greatest QB of all time in my eyes. It’s subjective, I know, but there seems to be a consensus based on the results of the poll in this article. Legitimate arguments can be made more many others, but if the majority of people think he is the best then that will be his legacy.

  242. darkneptune73 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 11:20 AM
    …the most spoiled fanbase ever.

    We Pats fans are spoiled. 10 AFC Championship games and 6 Super Bowl appearances in a 15 year period would spoil any fan base.

    Watching the Greatest NFL Player of All-Time, Tom Brady, play and be coached by the Greatest Head Coach of All-
    Time, Bill Belichick, during that period is also spoiling.

    I don’t know if we are the most spoiled fan base of all time, but we can live happily with being spoiled.

  243. Brady’s Super Bowl victories were over teams that were of the flashes-in-the-pan variety. Not only that, they required a placekicker to make the difference. If Vinatieri melts down, the Brady legend regresses by extension.

    By contrast, Montana’s victories involved a number of blowout victories – and it wouldn’t have mattered if his placekicker was a bowl of creamed corn.

    Brady is WAYYYYY up there – but I give a slight edge to Montana.

    -Steeler Fan (who realizes Bradshaw is not in this discussion)

  244. Montana’s 49ers didn’t have the burden of the salary cap or modern free agency, thus more continuity.

    And there was more continuty for every other team as well.

    Which is why the Broncos went to 3 Super Bowls in the 1980s.. The Redskins, 4. The Giants, 2, and how many NFCC Games?

    I don’t see how the cap hurts teams these days. It sure hasn’t hurt the Pats, Steelers and Packers, who have been Playoff teams for how many years now?.. Mannings Colts, Reids Eagles.. the Seahawks and Broncos… even the BENGALS had been a Playoff team for how long???…

    The cream rises to the top, today the same as yesterday. Good organizations win. Period. The Patriots are clearly the best team in the League, as the 9ers were in the 1980s. As the Steelers were in the 1970s. As the Packers were in the 1960s.

  245. paulieorkid says:
    Dec 9, 2016 2:41 PM
    Brady’s Super Bowl victories were over teams that were of the flashes-in-the-pan variety.
    ________________

    In his SB victories Brady beat 2 SB winning teams and Montana beat none. The Greatest Show on Turf one year removed from winning the SB, the defending SB champion Seahawks and an Eagles team that had just gone 59-21 in 5 straight playoff seasons were hardly flashes in the pan. Only Carolina was a one hit wonder. Montana beat the Bungles twice. The margin of victory in his 26-21 win was 2 Wersching FG’s and in the second 2 Cofer FG’s gave SF a 20-16 win. Those two bowl of creamed corn kickers are what have Montana in this conversation. Montana’s SB blow outs came at the expense of a one hit wonder Miami team and a Denver team that made a habit of getting blown out in the big game and wouldn’t win a SB for another 10 years.

  246. aarons444 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 3:44 PM
    I don’t see how the cap hurts teams these days.
    ___________________

    Then there is no explaining it to you.
    ‘There is none so blind as the one that refuses to see’

  247. ‘There is none so blind as the one that refuses to see’

    Except I’m not missing anything.

    There is no question whatsoever Brady plays for the best organization in this League. The Patriots are so much better than everyone else it’s EMBARASSING.

    Montana’s 9ers didn’t deal with Free Agency… hmm… well did Brady deal with a Bears defense that was beastly from 1985-1988 beacuse they were able to keep their elite unit together, not being subject to free agency?.. or great Giant defenses from 1986-1990 that nearly ended Montanas career. That unit wasn’t subject to free agency either. Yes, the 9ers had continuity. So did every other great team of that era, and there were MORE of them.

    Football was better in the 1980s. Sorry you weren’t around to see it. The teams were better. The competition was better. So was Joe Montana.

  248. Montana beat the Bungles twice. The margin of victory in his 26-21 win was 2 Wersching FG’s and in the second 2 Cofer FG’s gave SF a 20-16 win.

    Obviously you’ve never seen Super Bowl XXIII.

  249. I wonder if we would be having this conversation if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns?

    I would imagine the Patriots would be so lousy without Tom Terrific that they’d be fighting with the Raiders for the right to move to Vegas………………………………………….

  250. Let’s face it, there a number of worthy candidates for “best ever” based on whatever criteria you want to use–strength of the team they played on, QB stats, the wins, the “eye” test, the era they played in, what helped more, the coach or the quarterback, etc. Maybe 5-10 QB’s in the discussion.

    In this era, I don’t think there’s a debate anymore that it’s Brady. Those that say it’s Manning point to stats and MVP’s, and they should. It’s the old Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain argument. If you can’t have both, do you want the ultimate winner, or the ultimate stat machine?

    I’ll agree that comparing Montana to Brady is difficult due to the many variables that cannot be filtered out of the discussion in order to pick one. I have no problem with anyone picking Montana–it’s really hard to poke holes in the guy’s resumé.

  251. aarons444 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 5:41 PM
    Montana beat the Bungles twice. The margin of victory in his 26-21 win was 2 Wersching FG’s and in the second 2 Cofer FG’s gave SF a 20-16 win.

    Obviously you’ve never seen Super Bowl XXIII.
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    Not only did I see it I won a substantial amount betting the under. It is however painfully apparent you obviously only watched the fourth quarter.

  252. It is however painfully apparent you obviously only watched the fourth quarter.

    I’m sorry.. you’re right.. surely Mike Cofers 2 field goals were more memorable than THE quintessential drive in Super Bowl History. I mean, every Super Bowl I’ve ever watched featured a drive where a QB completes 8 of 9 passes for 98 yards and the winning score with under a minute to go………….

    Tim Krumries broken leg was the only other noteworthy thing to happen in that game.

  253. aarons444 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 7:12 PM
    I’m sorry.. you’re right..
    +++++++++++++++

    Well I’m glad we got that out of the way.

    My post was responding to someone that stated Brady didn’t beat anyone worth a damn and even then relied on his kicker to do it whereas “By contrast, Montana’s victories involved a number of blowout victories – and it wouldn’t have mattered if his placekicker was a bowl of creamed corn.” I simply stated that in fact Brady faced better competition in his 4 SB victories than Montana and if the Niners kicker had in fact been a can of creamed corn then Montana wouldn’t be in this conversation either. Why you cherry picked one part of the discussion to argue out of context is something only you can answer.

    Montana didn’t need a kicker and beat the most horrifying opponents in the history of history single handed.

  254. Aaron44

    Its significantly harder today to keep a winning team together. Its indisputable. With more teams in the NFL now and more money being thrown at lesser talent, teams like the Pats are constantly shedding talent for cap space. Careers are short and with the now known head injury risk, it pushes players even more to cash in when they can. The 49ers had the advantage of more continuity, there is no other logical conclusion.

  255. Brady was the beneficiary of some great Pats defenses. How many of those was he dominate in? None. How many of those Super Bowls were won on game winning field goals or defensive plays?? All of them. Brady was not the reason they won four Super Bowls. Sorry but it’s the truth.

  256. Blindsquirrelsfindnuts says:
    Dec 5, 2016 8:51 PM
    guybushsghost says:
    Dec 5, 2016 7:09 PM
    Otto Graham. 114–20–4 overall record. Holds the records for career yards/attempt (8.98) and highest winning % as a starting QB (81.4%). Played 10 years, went to the championship game all 10 years, winning 7.

    What is amazing is his career yards per attempt. This was back in the 40’s and 50’s, not exactly high-production QBing at the time…

    1 0
    Report comment

    —————————

    He also played against defensive ends who were 5’11”, 200 lbs and ran 5.3 40’s. 85% of the people from that era (60-70 years ago) wouldn’t get a tryout with today’s teams. Too small, too slow, too white.
    How can anyone say a guy who barely completed 50% of his passes and only twice had over 300 attempts is the best quarterback ever? He also threw only 16 fewer interceptions than Brady with about 4,300 fewer attempts. Let that one sink in for a second, 4,300 fewer attempts
    _____________________________________

    Your reply to his Otto Graham praise is completely wrong. Why? Because the size and speed of the players is completely irrelevant. That’s because the guys he had on offense were comparable in speed and size to the guys he played against on defense.
    And, dismissing the guys from way back because of their size and speed compared to the guys who play today is also completely wrong.
    Today’s players have a huge advantage in training methods, nutrition, and supplements (some illegal, by the way) to build their bodies to the levels they achieve as opposed to the players of bygone eras. And, because of the money they are paid, they can focus year round on training their bodies.
    It might surprise you to know that players from those bygone eras had to find jobs in the off season to make more money to live on. They worked just like anyone else.
    And they didn’t have the fame and recognition today’s players have because there was no tv and media coverage as there is today.
    I learned a long time ago that athletes who were great in any era would be great in any other era given the same conditions.
    Think about this. Babe Ruth was the most dominant athlete in his sport of any athlete in any other sport. He had God given talent that those who saw him play marveled at, even many decades later. He was the greatest baseball player ever, and he would be the greatest baseball player in this era as well.
    One year, when he had an off year, largely because he partied on beer and food too much, he was criticized and writers wrote that he was washed up. He was angry that he was being criticized and also angry at himself. So, he re-dedicated himself to getting in top condition for the upcoming season. He went to his home, cut out partying and chopped wood every day. Hour after hour, he chopped wood. It was a grueling way to train, but he came back better than ever and proved everyone wrong. Imagine if he’d have had the training methods that athletes have today?
    The bottom line is, don’t ever slight the athletes from bygone athletes. They were great athletes who would be great today.

  257. aarons444 says:
    Dec 9, 2016 5:39 PM
    Football was better in the 1980s. Sorry you weren’t around to see it. The teams were better. The competition was better. So was Joe Montana.
    _________________

    I didn’t miss any football in the 80’s and yes some of it was excellent although it was slightly better in the 70’s. Unfortunately I did miss some of that, in ’71 I was playing in the Southeast Asian War Games (our team came in 2nd btw). I am a Giants fan, I had plenty of opportunity to see Montana and his band of offensive all stars play against some of the best defenses I’ve ever seen. That doesn’t change the fact that when looking at the 2 eras the system made it so easy to keep a really good team together that it took FA and the implementation of the cap to give any meaning at all to the phrase ‘On any given Sunday.’ Staying at the top now is far more difficult, it involves doing it with an ever changing cast.

  258. and to think a strip sack and fumble caused by Charles Woodson started it all for him…..what the tuck

  259. Azwildcats

    Tom Brady is the all time leader in playoff 4th qtr comebacks. I think he had something to do with the Pats winning those SBs. If any QB could have done it, Belichick would have traded Brady for the cap space like so many others. Why did BB keep him around?

  260. azwildcats96 says:
    Dec 10, 2016 9:49 AM
    Brady was the beneficiary of some great Pats defenses. How many of those was he dominate in? None. How many of those Super Bowls were won on game winning field goals or defensive plays??
    +++++++++++++++++

    Yeah, who can forget:

    Vinatieri kicking that 110 yard game winner against the Rams from his own endzone.

    The stalwart Pats defense that overcame Brady’s 32/48 for 354 and 3 td’s to limit Carolina to 29 points.

    Vinatieri’s awe inspiring 22 yarder against Philly with the Pats already up by 7.

    The Pats defense shredding the Legion of Bust in the 4th quarter only to see Brady give up the fluke reception that set up that 2nd and goal play.

  261. We need to be honest about Brady’s Super Bowls. The first 3 he was mostly a game manager and the last was mostly because the LOB were hurt and Seattle made that terrible play call. The 2 losses to the Giants were heartbreaking but if Brady and that high powered offense could manage more than 1 TD in the first 55 minutes those miracle catches wouldn’t have mattered

  262. rriddlerr says:
    Dec 5, 2016 4:23 PM
    “He has an many Super Bowl wins as anyone, matching Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw with four” – Not true.

    As a QB, this is true, but Charles Haley has five and I still think he qualifies as an “Anyone”
    _________________________________________
    True, proof that an illiterate Troglodyte can win 5 superbowl rings. I’m pretty sure Charles Haley wasn’t the QB of the SB teams.

  263. azwildcats96 says:
    Dec 10, 2016 9:49 AM
    Brady was the beneficiary of some great Pats defenses.

    ——-
    As was Joe, in fact Joe had it much better. Joe had a top 3 D 7 times to Brady’s 3….And those 9ers gave up less than 9 PPG in the latter 3 SB runs, never giving up more than 16.

  264. In a word no, Joe never lost in the super bowl. He never threw a pick in the super bowl. And he didn’t leave a game up to a kicker in a super bowl. It’s not even close.

  265. The NFL Leader in playoff wins since Joe Flacco came into the league is Joe Flacco. Brady has nothing on him. Watching Steve Smith finally win his Lombardi in February is going to be glorious.

  266. I am a Cowboys fan. Do wins and Superbowls make him the greatest ever – no – but they are excellent indicators. There are other things to consider like clutch play, ability to win with different teammates over time etc.

    I discount deflategate because I believe the NFL made a big deal out of something that scientifically has been proven to be a non-issue.

    Spygate is on Belichik and I don’t believe it in anyway had enough of an effect to bring about unfair wins. You still have to play the game and adapt if things arent going well.

    My conclusion based on the totality is that Tom Brady is the greatest ever and it is not close. I think the same can be said for Belichik.

  267. fmc651 says:
    Dec 10, 2016 7:59 PM
    In a word no, Joe never lost in the super bowl. He never threw a pick in the super bowl. And he didn’t leave a game up to a kicker in a super bowl. It’s not even close.

    ———————-

    Because Joe got his butt handed to him in 7 of the 12 playoff games that were not Super Bowls. Keep it coming, losers. Montana is also a clown whose puny brain does not comprehend basic science.

    J*e M*nt*n* admits to cheating regularly as a player and an organization. Brady >>> Montana

  268. Flaccojumpball

    The NFL leader in playoff wins sinceRussel Wilson started in Russell Wilson. Whats your point?

    Brady accomplished more than both of them at their respective points in their careers.

  269. las0023 says:
    Dec 10, 2016 4:45 PM
    We need to be honest about Brady’s Super Bowls. The first 3 he was mostly a game manager and the last was mostly because the LOB were hurt and Seattle made that terrible play call. The 2 losses to the Giants were heartbreaking but if Brady and that high powered offense could manage more than 1 TD in the first 55 minutes those miracle catches wouldn’t have mattered

    ———

    The most telling thing about Brady’s Super Bowls from your excuse-making post was that, well, he certainly was in a lot of them for you to be talking this much.

    Says a whole bunch right there.

  270. Montana has the same accomplishments as Brady…4 Super Bowls…even though he only played 9 years on a good team, he played against tougher competition, he has a much better QB rating in the Super Bowl and he actually won his games without needing the Tuck Rule or worst play call in history.

  271. Sure, what competition did he have? The AFC East hasn’t had another good team in decades, Manning was usually one and done and the AFC West was pathetic.

    ——————–

    The most telling thing about Brady’s Super Bowls from your excuse-making post was that, well, he certainly was in a lot of them for you to be talking this much.

    Says a whole bunch right there.

  272. Brady playing in the salary cap era with no elite receivers except for Gronk who is always hurt and Moss who was 30 years old when Brady got him. Moss still holds the most touchdowns per season. If Brady wins the fifth ring, that seals all arguments.

  273. Patriots won 3 Superbowls by cheating.
    Brady has 1 legit Superbowl.

    Terry Bradshaw won 4 with statistically average receivers.
    – Could Brady beat the 86 Bears defense? hell no.
    – Could he outscore the Greatest Show on Turf (Rams)…without the Patriots D cheating…no.

    Is he great? Yes. Best ever? No.

  274. tom987123 says:
    Dec 12, 2016 9:27 AM
    …Terry Bradshaw won 4 with statistically average receivers…

    Two of Bradshaw’s WRs are in the HOF.

    Granted, no one from the Steelers organization of the 70’s through today should be in the HOF as it is common knowledge that the Steelers have been cheating with PEDs and underinflated footballs for over 40 years, and all of their Super Bowl wins are therefore tainted, but it remains a fact that two of Bradshaw’s WRs are in the HOF.

  275. veddermn8,

    I don’t think playing in the salary cap era is a great feather in Brady’s cap.

    I DO think Brady is the best QB of his era, just not the greatest of all-time.

  276. aaron444

    So you find no advantage is gained by playing with the same pass catchers and linemen over the years (along with continuity on the defensive side of the ball)? Not saying Montana played with the same roster every year, but he did have his best teammates for extended periods of time.

    Brady’s era not only has more player movement because of the cap and free agency, but 4 more teams have been added as well (Cleveland, Houston, Carolina, Jacksonville).

    And the Pats are famous for shedding players still in their prime to save cap space.

    To use one example, Montana threw tds to 36 different receivers over his career, Brady has thrown to 63, for only one team. That is second all time only to Testaverde (70) who played for 7 teams in 21 yrs.

    Not pointing this out as a knock on Montana, but it certainly is impressive that Brady has been able to be successful no matter who he is throwing to.

    Brady has been on the Pats his whole career, but he has played for many different teams.

  277. So you find no advantage is gained by playing with the same pass catchers and linemen over the years?… Not saying Montana played with the same roster every year, **but he did have his best teammates for extended periods of time**

    The other great teams of the late 80’s early 90’s stayed together too.

    The Bears had the top rated defense 3 of 4 years from 1985-1988.

    The Giants won 2 Super Bowls on the back of a great defense in ’86 and ’90. The ’86 D is viewed as one of the greats of this era, but they weren’t even the #1 D that season! (the Bears were)

    Joe Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. His offense was no less potent or cohesive than Walsh’s.

    That is to say nothing of some good Rams teams, and Buddy Ball in Philly, or the Vikings, who pulled off one of the more stunning Playoff upsets in ’87.

    Winning in Montana’s era was tougher.

  278. flaccojumpball says:
    Dec 12, 2016 3:26 PM
    Brady and Little Ben two confirmed cheaters. Neither can beat the Ravens fair and square. Suggs will end Brady tonight

    ——

    When that doesn’t happen at all, what will you say tomorrow?

    Your name is accurate though, so you’ve got that.

  279. And 1 final thing veddermn8,

    How many Super Bowls does Brady get to WITHOUT free agency?

    Mike Vrabel
    Rodney Harrison
    Wes Welker
    Corey Dillon
    Junior Seau
    Revis Island

    Belichick has used free agency to his advantage to build his teams. He has spent top dollar on marquee free agents (Revis, Adalius Thomas, Rosevelt Colvin) so again, free agency certainly hasn’t HURT Brady, OR the Patriots.

  280. aarons444 says:
    Dec 13, 2016 10:07 AM

    And 1 final thing veddermn8,

    How many Super Bowls does Brady get to WITHOUT free agency?

    Mike Vrabel
    Rodney Harrison
    Wes Welker
    Corey Dillon
    Junior Seau
    Revis Island

    Belichick has used free agency to his advantage to build his teams. He has spent top dollar on marquee free agents (Revis, Adalius Thomas, Rosevelt Colvin) so again, free agency certainly hasn’t HURT Brady, OR the Patriots.
    ==============

    Dillon and Welker were trades.

    And if there is no cap or free agency, its likely the Pats would have had kept the likes of Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour, Logan Mankins, Lawyer Milloy, Asante Samuel, Mike Vrabel (cut by Pitt, not really a premier free agent), Deion Branch, Adam Vinatieri, Wes Welker, David Givens, Chandler Jones, Jaimie Collins. Add to that the numerous 1st round picks the Pats have dealt away for later rounders to avoid the 1st round price tags. If those players stuck around, I think that would have helped the Pats be even better than they were.

    And I would say Adalius Thomas did hurt the Pats, he was awful and ate up cap space.

    Its much harder to keep a good team together year after year in this era and it makes the QB’s job harder to prepare new teammates and to prepare for opponents than in the 80’s. Not necessarily saying Brady was outright “better” than Montana, but his job is certainly harder.

  281. To further the point, how many teams have been to multiple Super Bowls in Brady’s era (2000-2016)?

    Steelers – 3
    Seahawks – 3
    Giants – 3
    Panthers – 2
    Broncos -2
    Ravens – 2
    Colts – 2

    And the Patriots with 6 and with 10 conference title game appearances. Seems the entirety of the NFL has been affected by the parity rules except the Pats. If the cap and free agency weren’t a big deal, why aren’t more teams as successful as the Pats? Its almost like they have a certain X factor others don’t….

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