NFL TV ratings continue upward trend

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After two straight years of declines, the NFL’s television ratings are bouncing back.

Through five weeks of the season, NFL games are averaging 3 percent more viewers than last year. That’s not enough to offset the declines of the last two years, which were in the 8-10 percent range each year, but it is enough to end any talk that NFL ratings were in free fall.

And ratings seem to be getting stronger as the season wears on. In each of the last two weeks, four of the six broadcast windows were up compared to last year. In Week One and Week Two, most of the broadcast windows were down.

The NFL’s slight ratings increase is particularly impressive given the overall downward trend of TV ratings. Many of the longtime mainstays on TV — from The Big Bang Theory to Dancing With the Stars to The Walking Dead — have endured serious audience erosion.

“Everything in television is threatened in ratings because people have so many other choices, and that includes the NFL,” Robert Thompson, a professor of television and pop culture at Syracuse University, told NBC News. “But in the end, I think the NFL is actually surprisingly stable given all of those other changes.”

Even programming that is doing well still isn’t doing as well as the NFL. The Boston Red Sox-New York Yankees playoff series that wrapped up Tuesday night got strong ratings for TBS, but it was no match for the NFL: When Red Sox-Yankees went head-to-head with the NFL on Monday night, ESPN drew more than twice as many viewers for football as TBS drew for baseball.

Not all the news is great for the NFL. The audience for NFL games appears to be getting older, which isn’t a good sign for the long-term health of the league. But after two consecutive years of bad ratings news, the league is glad to have some good news for a change.

105 responses to “NFL TV ratings continue upward trend

  1. That’s because America’s real team is on TV more. Anytime the GOAT Brady is on, it drives up ratings!

  2. The audience is getting older because the younger generation can’t afford the tickets on top of their crippling student debt.

  3. I honesly thought the ratings decline was the officiating not the protests. But clearly (all too painfully) they do not have the officiating straightened out. The one change they made that has appeared to produce the difference was they stopped showing the protests on tv. Cant deny the cause and effect. That was apparently it. Every other problem it was being blamed on still exists.

  4. Shocking…. less drama and politics…more views… who would have thunk it! Imagine how high the ratings will go if you stop with the crazy new rule changes next!! It will almost be like back in the heyday before all this crap!

  5. Has anyone informed the “I’m never going to watch another NFL game” bozos that they’re irrelevant?

  6. .
    There’s a few compelling storylines this season that have driven viewership. The emergence of the Rams, Chiefs, Bears and even the Browns are attention getting. On the other hand, the apparent vulnerability of usual suspects, New England, Green Bay and Pittsburgh are of equal interest.
    .

  7. The Nike commercial was a turning point in showing that standing up for human decency is a good and honorable thing. Thank you, Nike, for bringing some common sense and level-headedness to the debate.

  8. Less kneeling, The networks helped out not putting the camera on the kneelers.
    Young people love basketball. If the NFL doesn’t slow down their greed they will turn into baseball.

  9. “The audience is getting older because the younger generation can’t afford the tickets.”

    ==========

    Don’t think you need “tickets” to watch football on TV which is what the article is referring to.

    I guess all of you boycotting the NFL and no longer watching is helping the ratings. The NFL thanks you for your fake boycott.

  10. And after cutting the cord and being on the outside looking in, I got Hulu Live for a reasonable 40.00 per month and I’m back inside the loop.

    I’m not going to lie I was missing football GAMES like crazy. Highlights just are not enough.

  11. Probably because all those who claimed they “would never watch the NFL again” finally realized that nobody cared about their holier than thou attitudes and gave in to the logical side of their brains.

  12. So much for the people who keep saying they aren’t going to watch anymore because the game has become too watered down by Goodell.

  13. According to Nielsen last year: ABC dropped 15%, CBS dropped 19%, Fox dropped 8%, NBC dropped 19%, Univision dropped 18%, CW dropped 15%, AMC dropped 20%, Comedy Central dropped 18%.

    Cable cutting has been going on for a couple of years and yet certain media groups completely ignore that FACT just to push their agenda. Better to generate clickbait false narratives like bad officiating, kneeling, etc. than the boring real reason.

  14. “Has anyone informed the “I’m never going to watch another NFL game” bozos that they’re irrelevant?”

    Those people are too dumb to understand their irrelevance.

  15. truthinesshurts says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:09 am
    Do the ratings correlate to the rate of players kneeling ? Less kneeling this season = higher ratings ?
    —–
    😂😂😂 First it was I’m never watching the NFL again those players are disrespecting the flag! Now it’s well there may be some players still kneeling but I don’t think as much…I’ll watch the NFL now.

    The NFL boycotts I kept hearing about went about as well as the Nike boycotts. But I guess if you want to spin it to make yourself feel better about watching you can do that.

  16. I find brining any type of politics or off field distraction into the game annoying. But the idea that a few guys kneeling during the national anthem is significantly affecting NFL ratings is….I guess its just really funny.

    The nfl is, but a huge margin, the most popular sport in the US. The nfl will continue to be, by a huge margin, the most popular sport in the US.

    The nfl ratings will fluctuate from year to year for a variety of reasons….none of which has anything to do social protests. The nfl has simply reached a point it is so popular that they can’t realistically grow significantly anymore.

  17. I wonder if more people are watching because the games are higher scoring and there is more back and fourth and upsets this year. Besides LA, and KC no one is really doing that great. One team will beat 2 teams, than lose to one they shouldn’t, than a good team will lose to someone they shouldn’t…and so one. I mean heck…the Patriots loss to the Lions, so did the Packers. There are also just tons of high scoring games this year, like the Rams – Vikings game, Atlanta vs the Saints…..Kansas City vs Pitts.

  18. “The audience is getting older because the younger generation can’t afford the tickets on top of their crippling student debt”.

    Perhaps the younger generations parents should have been more responsible in saving for their children’s education, instead of investing in their nightly twelve pack of beer.

  19. LOL you do realize Trump said he has no problem with the NFL and enjoys watching it. If you watched his last speech he just helped the NFL out with their Canadian TV contracts. Heck PFT had an article about it

    codylaws says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:45 am
    Noooooooo.Trump and his supporters must not be happy. lol

  20. The same person who took credit for the stock market rising nonstop since Mar 2009 will take credit for the rise in NFL viewership, but he will blame his predecessor for yesterday’s stock market drop of over 800 points.

  21. I don’t think it’s surprising at all that the NFL, right now, is stable. And, I think fantasy football helps that. To me, it would be surprising if ratings kept dropping. Even with the anthem protests, I don’t see that realistically stopping complainers from watching football.

  22. “Don’t believe it”

    ============

    When the “news” here supports your agenda you applaud it and quote it.

    When the “news” here makes you look foolish then it becomes “fake news”

    Got it👌

  23. Haha, people thanking Nike and Reid are hilarious. At this point, you can draw a line between viewership and protests. They went away(at least off screen) and ratings went up. Leave it to Demanto claim a win when it is quite obviously a loss. If Reid keeps up with his, and it begins to find headlines again, you can most certainly kiss these increases goodbye.

  24. bannedfromchoirpractice says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:12 am
    Has anyone informed the “I’m never going to watch another NFL game” bozos that they’re irrelevant?

    ———————-
    I think they know. Because after removing the factor they said they objected to it looks like they started watching again. Sort of like their boycott got them what they wanted so they ended the boycott.

  25. Wow the racists narratives are being destroyed left and right. Lots of news about players doing work in their communities, ratings up and Reid has a job. Their heads will actually explode if Kaep gets a job

  26. Perhaps the younger generations parents should have been more responsible in saving for their children’s education, instead of investing in their nightly twelve pack of beer.
    ———-
    You blaze your own trail like our generation did. My folks taught me I’m going to have to earn everything I get because nobody is handing out any favors. “So don’t expect any help from anyone. You are on your own in life.” And I was. And I did/doing OK. And I’m nothing special. Just your average dude that worked during the day to take some classes at night.

  27. bannedfromchoirpractice says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:18 am
    The Nike commercial was a turning point in showing that standing up for human decency is a good and honorable thing. Thank you, Nike, for bringing some common sense and level-headedness to the debate.

    —————-
    The Nike ad sold tennis shoes. Nothing more. But fair enough thats all it was intended to do so it was a good shrewd play by Nike.

    It did not help the NFL, the NFL had nothing to do with it. And the uptick in ratings started at the beginning of the year as people noticed the broadcasts were back to being about sports and the politics was absent. That was before the Nike commercial and Reid’s signing (which was nothing more than a football decision anyhow) so they do not have any bearing on the topic of this aricle.

  28. spartanlegend says:
    October 11, 2018 at 9:15 am
    Wow the racists narratives are being destroyed left and right. Lots of news about players doing work in their communities, ratings up and Reid has a job. Their heads will actually explode if Kaep gets a job

    ——————-
    Kudos to the players for that work. But that type of work was never what the objection to the acts of disrespect (that you refer to as “racist barratives”) were about. In fact, those objections tended to ask that the players, instead of just fixating on this one way of protesting by disrespecting the flag at work, that they do go out and find more constructive ways. And some players have. Those players are indeed using their own time, not somone else’s, to make their points, and putting in real effort to do some good. But really thats exactly what the “racist narratives” as you incorrectly call them, were asking for. Glad to see it happening.

  29. wfekk says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:15 am

    By looking at the half full stadiums you could have fooled me with ratings
    —————
    really? help me out here and let us know the stadiums you are referring to , I watch a lot of NFL games and have yet to see a single half full stadium.

  30. rabidbillsfan says:
    October 11, 2018 at 9:10 am

    Haha, people thanking Nike and Reid are hilarious. At this point, you can draw a line between viewership and protests. They went away(at least off screen) and ratings went up. Leave it to Demanto claim a win when it is quite obviously a loss. If Reid keeps up with his, and it begins to find headlines again, you can most certainly kiss these increases goodbye.

    ————————————————————————–

    Or maybe offense is up a tremendous amount this year compared to the last few years, which makes more people want to watch. Defensive football is fun for the hardcore people, but casual fans want to see offense.

    Oh wait, that may be too logical of a thought for your mind to comprehend. Let me try it a different way –

    Protests go away – watch more football people do!

  31. spartanlegend says:
    October 11, 2018 at 9:15 am
    Wow the racists narratives are being destroyed left and right. Lots of news about players doing work in their communities, ratings up and Reid has a job. Their heads will actually explode if Kaep gets a job

    ——————-
    Why would my head explode if Kaep gets a job? I dont think its a good football decision but as long as its not my team hurting themselves why should I care? I might even like it if I think I see a rival hurting themselves. And if Kaep proved me wrong and did show effectiveness on the field, sure I would be surprised, but not angry. If he plays well thats football not politics. I think some of you who have totally confused the two think that a good football performance would be a political victory but it would not. It would simply be a good football performance. So power to him if he could pull that off. I just dont think he can is all. And neither do the talent evaluators, thats why he is out.

  32. OMG…but I thought the illiterate flag bearers (who likely never served in defense of it, or its rights) were winning?

    I served. I fought. And I respect the rights I fought for. Including the right to disagree. Anything else is fascism.

  33. dejc421 says:
    October 11, 2018 at 9:32 am
    wfekk says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:15 am

    By looking at the half full stadiums you could have fooled me with ratings
    —————
    really? help me out here and let us know the stadiums you are referring to , I watch a lot of NFL games and have yet to see a single half full stadium.

    ——————
    Thats because they have folks move down and the networks watch their camera angles to keep the empty seats from being evident. But the cases where they have to do that have been more about bad teams struggling with their local support than anything else. Its not a new practice, its not something that suddenly rose up when the protests started. So probably not a factor in this conversation.

  34. really? help me out here and let us know the stadiums you are referring to , I watch a lot of NFL games and have yet to see a single half full stadium.

    ======================================================

    Most games I’ve watched have had visibly less people in seats.

  35. If Kaepernick was back in the league, I’m pretty sure the number of young people would increase. This generation is more about human decency than the old-school politics that most of the league’s viewers believe in.

  36. The difference is that the quality of play with the recent influx (finally) of quality young QB’s. I don’t care about the protests (although a small number does). I watched less because the games sucked.

  37. If the ratings are higher now, just wait until sports betting is legal in more than the 5 states that have it now.

  38. buttfumbles says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:14 am
    Guess the armchair patriots didn’t make good on their promises to stop watching.
    ———–

    This “armchair patriot” signed his life over and picked up a rifle for his country. Can you say the same? I stopped watching back in 2016, before it snowballed. Back when it was just Kaepernick and his misguided views. They’ll have to do more to fully earn me back (I do watch my Bengals, but they’ve never participated in the protest), but I can see why others are coming back now. The protesting (and coverage) has stopped. So if people promised not to watch due to the Anthem protest, how is it “breaking a promise” if they’re watching again when the protests stop?

  39. I call Fake News!! Unless info only taken from California and New York, I can say with great certainty the less people in middle America are watching the NFL. Just isn’t happening….Eric Reid reminded a lot of people of one reason not to watch, Goodell and the rules committee with roughing the passer changes have created yet another…..ya know, there’s a lot of wisdom in the old adage, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Too late. The last straw will be an 18 game season.

  40. There’s many that stopped watching or are watching less. There’s also some that were marginal fans that watched occasionally that are watching more often.

  41. Nothing to do with kneeling or showing it. Better games overall, better games in prime time, and legalized gambling. I’d bet the last one is why the viewership is skewing older.

  42. Red Zone is the way to go.
    1. Free with streaming
    2. No commercials
    3. Minimal experience with Buck, Aikman and other overpaid frauds.
    4. Better to keep track of fantasy results.
    FIRE GOODELL.

  43. The NFL is lying. The numbers are not upward because a couple of early season matchips did well.

    They’re still down from 2014 and earlier numbers.

    It’s a fact.

    This is a PR move by Goodell and the owners like GM telling us all is well in 2006.

    lmao

  44. electricboogalo says:
    October 11, 2018 at 10:27 am
    Anyone who thinks this has to do with kneeling might be as dimwitted as our president.

    ——————-

    Exactly. It’s an ecuse on the heels fo Ray Rice and those lies and Framegate II. It has to do with the trust of the fans/customer with Goodell and the obvious cheating owners who need parity to see MORE Money come in from MORE eyeballs on tv screens.

    We don’t even see the kneeling happening because they don’t even broadcast the national anthem!

    We hear about it later and see still phoots, but that’s it.

  45. Driven mostly by the networks wisely switching away from Dolphins games to more competitive matchups early in the 3rd quarter.

  46. Cut the cord 3 years ago. Sling tv with red zone channel is $50 a month and I can cancel it at anytime. Directv Sunday package is a waste. You cant watch all the games at once anyways.

  47. bengalsfan20 says:
    October 11, 2018 at 12:24 pm
    Funny how Trump has nothing to say now. He’ll bring it up again when he needs something to incite his base since he can’t use anything else.

    —————-
    Trump won this one when they gave him what he wanted. We are no longer looking at flag protests on TV, that was the ask. For you to think players doing good in their communities is some sort of ‘resist Trump’ victory just shows a total lack of understanding of Trump or the issues.

  48. factschecker says:

    “You blaze your own trail like our generation did. My folks taught me I’m going to have to earn everything I get because nobody is handing out any favors. And I’m…just your average dude that worked during the day to take some classes at night”.
    ____________

    Respectfully, why would parents not want to save for their children’s college education? Things are now radically different than they were for our generation. 35 years ago you could attend an excellent state land grant university for approximately $300 tuition a semester. With room, board, and books it was approximately $750 per semester. Now that per semester cost is at least $18,000.

    Supporting their children is the most important thing that parents can do with their money. Providing an education is so much more important than having a mortgage payment beyond your means, leasing a new car every two years, or obtaining any other material possessions. How does forcing a child to leave college with $80,000+ in debt build character?

    Paying for your children’s college education is not “handing out favors”. Rather, it is fulfilling a moral obligation.

  49. Not all the news is great for the NFL. The audience for NFL games appears to be getting older, which isn’t a good sign for the long-term health of the league. But after two consecutive years of bad ratings news, the league is glad to have some good news for a change.

    ——————-

    There is so much on-demand content between social media, online games, youtumbe and Netflix that young people have no time or desire to tune into live events at a certain time every week. My kids only follow because they have grown up on it, but I am not sure they would tune into games if I wasn’t home. They would probably just check the score.

    It’s going to be hard to build a following in that age group.

  50. Say thanks to the Dallas Cowboys, thanks to the Cowboys owner who said he would fire any player that kneeled during the anthem. If players continue to refrain from dragging our them through political garbage, then ratings will continue to improve.

  51. See there! Ignoring the kneelers has resulted in higher ratings. Smart business decision on the parts of the networks and the league.

  52. What’s really funny is how the NBA is supposedly the most popular with the young generation and their regular season TV numbers are a pimple on the NFL’s butt. Even the Finals only generates something along the lines of a good regular season NFL game. The Millennial generation doesn’t watch a lot of TV period. That is why the NFL is offering games on streaming services which is the TV of the future.

  53. Art of the crowd says:
    October 11, 2018 at 1:04 pm

    Trump won this one when they gave him what he wanted. We are no longer looking at flag protests on TV, that was the ask. For you to think players doing good in their communities is some sort of ‘resist Trump’ victory just shows a total lack of understanding of Trump or the issues.
    —————————————-

    No. His ask was that any kneeling player be fired and possibly deported.

    His quote on Fox and Friends
    “You have to stand proudly for the national anthem or you shouldn’t be playing, you shouldn’t be there—maybe you shouldn’t be in the country”

  54. But but but hes kneeling!! And and and I’m never watching the NFL again!! And the ratings will go down!! Waaaahhhh. Morons.

  55. Anyone who thinks that Trump “won” has absolutely no clue whatsoever about politics. People are seriously deluded. You’re on the wrong side of history supporting the worst president in history. He is very fragile and easily triggered, such a snowflake.

  56. “This “armchair patriot” signed his life over and picked up a rifle for his country…They’ll have to do a lot more to fully earn me back”.
    ________

    Nobody cares about whatever you demand must happen to be “fully” earned back. If you are so upset about “signing your life over” maybe you shouldn’t have volunteered. It certainly doesn’t afford you the privilege to make special demands.

  57. Man, the HuffPo crowd is out in full force. They usually roll out of bed this time of the afternoon.

  58. Respectfully, why would parents not want to save for their children’s college education? Things are now radically different than they were for our generation. 35 years ago you could attend an excellent state land grant university for approximately $300 tuition a semester. With room, board, and books it was approximately $750 per semester. Now that per semester cost is at least $18,000.

    Supporting their children is the most important thing that parents can do with their money. Providing an education is so much more important than having a mortgage payment beyond your means, leasing a new car every two years, or obtaining any other material possessions. How does forcing a child to leave college with $80,000+ in debt build character?

    Paying for your children’s college education is not “handing out favors”. Rather, it is fulfilling a moral obligation.

    —————————

    Absolutely. If your parents care about what town they raise you in specifically for getting a good education and upbringing, not saving 100K for a 4 year degree. It doesn’t have to be 100K, just anything saved to alleviate the racket that is no known as a useless 4 year unddergraduate degree.

    The cost of a degree has gone into a stratosphere of 4 times what it was even 40 years ago.

  59. bullcharger says:
    October 11, 2018 at 1:22 pm
    Not all the news is great for the NFL. The audience for NFL games appears to be getting older, which isn’t a good sign for the long-term health of the league. But after two consecutive years of bad ratings news, the league is glad to have some good news for a change.

    ——————-

    There is so much on-demand content between social media, online games, youtumbe and Netflix that young people have no time or desire to tune into live events at a certain time every week. My kids only follow because they have grown up on it, but I am not sure they would tune into games if I wasn’t home. They would probably just check the score.

    It’s going to be hard to build a following in that age group.

    —————————

    True, except why aren’t pro sports like NBA ,NHL and MLN with WAY MORE GAMES played, losing ratings?

    See?

    Goodell is a liar.

    The truth is, many older fans are tired of Goodell’s cheating and drama. That’s it. They’re embarrassed about it and don’t want to admit it.

    It’s as simple as that.

    The Millennials of today have no idea how special the old school NFL used to be. Now it’s all about greed and abuse of the customer.

  60. Nofoolnodrool says:
    October 11, 2018 at 9:12 am
    bannedfromchoirpractice says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:12 am
    Has anyone informed the “I’m never going to watch another NFL game” bozos that they’re irrelevant?

    ———————-
    I think they know. Because after removing the factor they said they objected to it looks like they started watching again. Sort of like their boycott got them what they wanted so they ended the boycott.

    ———-

    Just like the Leftist Elitists (Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Whoopi Goldeberg, Rosie O’Donnell, George Lopez, Spike Lee, Chelsey Handler, Raven-Symone, Bryan Canston, Snoop Dog, Neve Campbell, Jennifer Lawrence, etc.) who vowed to move out of the country if Bush (then later Trump) was elected. I thing we should actually hold these people to their word. There very may well be people who voted for Bush or Trump just because the people promised to leave.

  61. by the way….regarding the Walking Dead. I was a big fan. My favorite parts of the run of this show have always been when they were on the move, trying to survive. The best, for me, was from right after the battle with the Governor at the prison until they all got to Terminus. There was some great character development during that time.

    Favorite episode was when Daryl and Beth found the moonshine and burned down the house.

    Last year I watched all the episodes up until the midseason finale….I just didn’t have the interest….and haven’t watched since. From time to time I think about catching up on all the episodes, but it seems other things get the priority instead.

    The characters interest me more than the wars between them.

  62. I don’t know why people are pointing to stadiums being less full as if that has any correlation to people viewing at home. There was a Fox survey last year that showed that 98% of NFL fans haven’t seen a game in person. Going to a game is an expensive ordeal for the casual fan, and the quality of games on TV are great.

  63. Respectfully, why would parents not want to save for their children’s college education?

    ——

    wanting to and being able to are 2 different things. there are a lot of variables. and, quite frankly, some kids do better, or maybe, appreciate it more, when they own it themselves.

    it’s not a one-size-fits-all situation.

  64. NHPats says:
    October 11, 2018 at 2:59 pm

    There very may well be people who voted for Bush or Trump just because the people promised to leave.

    ——–

    If that’s the case, then are people even less intelligent than I had imagined.

  65. Either the racists who don’t want others to have the same rights that they’ve had for centuries have been lying about not watching, or those of us who refuted their straw man claims about ratings dropping were right all along…

    Or both?

  66. I’m an old fashion TV guy, but lots of folks are watching the games through media other than TV. Stuff I’ve never heard of. But the NFL is a better product than ever before. It sounds like some of the angry people who were cutting off their noses to spite their faces returned to their senses. Football is awesome. You can still stand on a soap box on your local corner if you have strong political feelings, but people like watching NFL football. Plus maybe some of the wives liked it when their husbands sit in front of the TV every weekend and let them do their own thing. That’s probably why my wife encourages me to watch football, so she can go shopping every Sunday. That’s the secret to a good marriage. Wait a minute, my wife shops online. Lol.

  67. @snark- I’m not going to battle with you because you’re one the good guys when it comes to realizing how dangerous Trump is.

    Regarding tuition however, the idea that some children do better paying their own way may have been a workable solution before the skyrocketing college costs. These days there is simply no way that a student can work enough to cover $40,000 a year without seriously compromising their studies.

    For an even more extreme example, UPS here in Louisville has a program where part-time package handlers can graduate debt free. Sounds like a great deal, but UPS has to continually advertise for participants because the combination of working from 2-6am and going to class in the day is simply too difficult.

  68. akira1971 says:
    October 11, 2018 at 8:37 am
    According to Nielsen last year: ABC dropped 15%, CBS dropped 19%, Fox dropped 8%, NBC dropped 19%, Univision dropped 18%, CW dropped 15%, AMC dropped 20%, Comedy Central dropped 18%.

    Cable cutting has been going on for a couple of years and yet certain media groups completely ignore that FACT just to push their agenda. Better to generate clickbait false narratives like bad officiating, kneeling, etc. than the boring real reason.

    ——————————————————-
    This is it, exactly. TV ratings are down across the board – BUT…in general news stories don’t want to talk about that in order to drum up controversy where it doesn’t exist, and they don’t want to remind advertisers that buying ad time on TV networks isn’t a great investment anymore.

    Three years ago my DirectTV bill was about to increase to $120/month – my family doesn’t watch enough TV to justify that. My kids primarily watch Youtube and Netflix. The only reason I want any kind of TV service is for sports. So I switched to Playstation Vue and haven’t looked back. It’s not perfect by any means, but I’m paying $50/month with NFL Red Zone, so any minor headaches are worth it to me. And from what I’ve seen all of the cable/satellite alternatives are pretty much the same.

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