Tom Brady says being called “the G.O.A.T.” makes him cringe

AP

It wasn’t hard to find people referring to Tom Brady as the greatest quarterback of all time before Super Bowl LIII and becoming the first player to win a sixth Super Bowl isn’t likely to stop people from putting goat emojis next to his name on social media.

During an appearance on Good Morning America, host and one-time Brady Super Bowl antagonist Michael Strahan said that he is in the camp that sees Brady as the “G.O.A.T.,” but Brady said it’s not a moniker he’ll be embracing anytime soon.

“I don’t even like it. It makes me cringe,” Brady said. “I guess I take compliments worse than I … I wish you would say, ‘You’re trash, you’re too old, you’re too slow, you can’t get it done no more,'” And I’ll say, ‘Thank you very much, I’ll prove you wrong.'”

No one who heard Brady after the AFC Championship Game or at several other points leading up to the Super Bowl will be surprised to hear he embraces real, perceived or even manufactured criticism as a motivational tool. That will likely continue to be the case even as the number of people who think he’s the best to ever do his job continues to rise and it’s hard to argue with the approach given the results.

547 responses to “Tom Brady says being called “the G.O.A.T.” makes him cringe

  1. Spoken like a player who is truly great, unlike LeBron James who self promotes himself as the GOAT even though he isn’t and never will be.

  2. It’s cringe worthy also because people use that GD word too much. For everybody. Young people and their underdeveloped brains calling Zion Williamson the goat on IG and he hasn’t even played an NBA game yet.

  3. Cant even see an argument for anyone but Brady at this point. Marino didnt have the postseason success. Montana was 4-0 in tjr SB but there was so many years he didnt make it that far. Losing in the SB is better than not making it. Brady has 6 titles anyways, 9 afccg wins to Montana’s 4 nfcccg games. Elway? No. Peyton or Favre? Uh no. Again.

  4. I am not a Pats fan, not even close. But it is a shame he cannot just play football, and enjoy the spoils when he wins. Being asked the same inane questions over and over and over has to be trying. He is one of the greatest, simply because he has played so long at such a high level and of course, the championships. He aint done yet, its a shame the media plays this silly game and the public eats it up with double spoons.

  5. This is the great irony of the haters and naysayers. They fuel Brady’s continued passion for destroying their teams’ hopes of winning and improving his weaknesses year after year. If they just admitted what they know to be true, he might finally say “I have accomplished all I wanted to accomplish and I have nothing left to prove.” Instead they keep calling him a system QB, saying he’s too old, he’s not a good athlete, he can’t throw the ball more than five yards, someone else could do just as well with Belichick etc. All they do is perpetuate their misery.

    Brady has the stats, the consistency, the longevity, the individual accolades and awards, and unparalleled team achievements. He is likely to be the first-team QB on the all-decade team for two straight decades. We will never see someone do what he has done again, and we might as well accept that.

  6. This reminds me of Andrew Luck (not the GOAT part) playing mind games too. Even after a hard sack, Luck would get up and congratulate the rusher with a “great job”…

  7. If Brady ever feels the need for the extra motivation doubters give him all he has to do is peruse the troll comments here at PFT. Of course that could backfire, he might end up in in such paroxysms of laughter at the ridiculous knots they twist themselves into in order to defame him that he busts a gut.

  8. What about “ cell phone smasher”?? Seriously?? The phone Wells said he didn’t need?? That phone??? The phone with personal information on it, that no one was entitled to!
    You can focus on that, we will watch our 12th championship parade instead!!

  9. Brady is not done yet. He still has a few more records to break. Next season, he could break the record for most pro-bowl selections in the league’s history with 15. Not to mention, all-time regular season passing yards and touchdown passes. We’re never again going to see another Tom Brady in NFL history.

  10. No one even visible in his rear view mirror. facts are stubborn things. won as many playoffs as montana and pedon COMBINED and win percentage pismires everyone. predecessors also were propped up by surrounding them with superior talent without free agency, brady has to get it done with a new cast of spare parts every year.

  11. I hope it never happens but the football fan in me would genuinely be curious to see how he does away from Bill. And how Bill would devise a plan to attack him.

    Hard to say what that would mean though – it probably would have meant more a decade ago.

  12. Well he obviously doesn’t listen to PAT FAN. Some of these pathetic dudes love him so much they want him to father their children.

  13. He is not the greatest. Anyone who has been caught cheating once, and plays for an organization that has been caught cheating 3 times will never be the greatest to me. Period.

  14. Not a pats fan, but you cannot possibly argue that Brady isn’t the best ever. The game is about winning championships, and he has more than anyone. Can’t stand when people claim Aaron Rodgers is the GOAT. It makes no sense to me.

  15. There you have it New England fanboys: your hero hates when you call him the G.O.A.T.

    So knock it off and insult him like he prefers. Unless you’re not true fans and callously disregard his wishes…

  16. Brady’s 6 rings is more impressive than Jordan’s imo, for two common sense reasons. 🙂

    It’s much harder to win a Super Bowl than an NBA championship. Especially these days.

    And a Super Bowl is a one shot deal not a best of 7 series.

  17. If the criterion for inclusion into greatest QB of all time is dragging your team to the championship game, why is Otto Graham seldom mentioned?

  18. dal1as says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:33 am
    He is not the greatest. Anyone who has been caught cheating once, and plays for an organization that has been caught cheating 3 times will never be the greatest to me. Period.

    —-
    Totally fabricated and made up cheating scandals doesn’t count as cheating silly! 🙂

  19. I refuse to believe that Rodgers would win even 1 ring with Belichick. Same with Manning. The relationship between coach and QB would not work because of their egos.

    Only Brady could win 6 here. Period.

  20. TruthfulDolphinsFanNotWearingBlinders says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:29 am
    Greatest system QB, not even a close 2nd!
    ——
    Sadly, I think one QB was probably exposed as a system guy on Sunday. I liked Goff but the guy was in way over his head.

  21. Wouldn’t you want to be in HIS shoes ?!!! Being called the GOAT and he’s still playing ? Knowing that you are a clinch to be in the HOF if he never throws another pass again ? Must be nice..

  22. So it’s not good enough that we have our legend that we are lucky enough to witness in our lifetime. Not good enough that this legend QB’s our favorite team to more Super Bowls than we could have possibly ever imagined.

    That’s not good enough for us Patriots fans? We have to also tear down every other historical legend that has ever played any sport during any era? Can’t we be happy with the dream come true that we have?

  23. leroysbutler says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:13 am
    It used to be Montana, not any more.

    ———————

    Brady’s still winning championships well past the age at which Montana was toast.

  24. Tom Terrific….. that works for me
    Don’t need to refer to him as the Goat….. EVERYONE with at least half a brain stem already knows it to be true…..
    What an honor it’s been watching him play…… I sure hope he plays till he’s 45, but if he wins another SUPER BOWL before that age, my guess is he’ll finally hang up his cleats & live a life that many of us can’t even dream of……
    Good for him…. The FOOTBALL WORLD will be less interesting when he’s gone!!!!
    GO PATS!!!!!

  25. I feel like if you are a Pats fan, you’ve been trained to utter the word GOAT anytime the word Tom is spoken. It’s like a Pavlov’s Dog experiment.
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

  26. crush22 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:17 am
    Because he knows it’s tainted.

    15 107 Rate This

    ———————

    The Easter Bunny says hello. He’ll be coming soon and enjoy believing Goodell’s lies.

    It’s comical to me how badly you people want to hang onto someone getting caught framing people to cheat, and act like it never happened. One of these outings happened in a federal court, and you people still act like it never happened.

    LMAO

    Seek the help you need, little guy.

  27. nfliferfan22 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:40 am
    That is because he isn’t. It’s a made up phrase by bias Pats fans who are losers and are arrogant who have nothing better to do with there sad lonely lives

    ———————-

    LOL…clearly, Pats fans are the ones who are sad and lonely! Especially all those Pats fans downtown today celebrating the 12th Boston Championship in the last 17 years! I’m sure those folks are super sad and lonely.

  28. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    I feel like if you are a Pats fan, you’ve been trained to utter the word GOAT anytime the word Tom is spoken. It’s like a Pavlov’s Dog experiment.
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

    ————–

    The reason you hate is because you’re jealous and small.

  29. Everyone that DOESN’T MAKE THE SUPER BOWL should be seen as having lost it. By that standard, Brady’s success percentage is also higher than any other QB that has played. Sorry, Joe.

  30. He isn’t even close to being great at all. What has he done? Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches? He did nothing Sunday. He loses Super Bowls all the time. He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating. They get 6 free wins each year. He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched. He is a crybaby on the field. He has zero personality. He loves his cheating coach. Throw in he got a better QB traded. Aaron Hernandez. The crappy refs who love him. He is a media creation.

  31. I think Elway is the GOAT to be honest. If Shanahan(the Shanahan after the 49ers developed him) and Elway had 20 years together they would probable have at least 8 Lombardi’s.

    If Walsh and Montana had 20 years together they would have about 8 Lombardi’s.

  32. Brady isn’t the GOAT, Joe Montana remains the true GOAT. Joe did it without any speculation of cheating and played in a much tougher league without all the pink tutu QB and Receiver protection rules of today’s league.

  33. They is no way anyone can be the “goat” when they play a team sport. There are too many variables. The truest thing that can be said is “one of the all time greats’

  34. mrznyc says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:41 am
    If the criterion for inclusion into greatest QB of all time is dragging your team to the championship game, why is Otto Graham seldom mentioned?

    14 games schedule in the AAFL, 12 game schedule in the NFL, 9 teams, 20-25 passes a game, goal posts in a different place, players who mostly had off season jobs in lumberyards & loading docks. Need more reasons? 18 years of excellence vs 10 in a longer, more grueling season than existed in the 40’s & 50’s.

    Seriously you guys sound like the barber in Coming to America complaining about bringing up Rocky Marciano.

  35. badchannels1 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:18 am
    Brady isn’t the GOAT, Joe Montana remains the true GOAT. Joe did it without any speculation of cheating

    You know that’s not true, right? Stickum?

  36. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    I feel like if you are a Pats fan, you’ve been trained to utter the word GOAT anytime the word Tom is spoken. It’s like a Pavlov’s Dog experiment.
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

    Trust us, it’s mutual.

  37. nfliferfan22 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:40 am
    That is because he isn’t. It’s a made up phrase by bias Pats fans who are losers and are arrogant who have nothing better to do with there sad lonely lives

    You do realize it’s NOT just “pats fans” that call him the GOAT

    It’s pretty much EVERY current and former PLAYER and current and former COACHES

    They People like you who don’t agree (and that’s fine if you don’t)
    But know you are so much in the minority it’s crazy

  38. steelerfanjo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:10 am
    He isn’t even close to being great at all. What has he done? Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches? He did nothing Sunday. He loses Super Bowls all the time. He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating. They get 6 free wins each year. He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched. He is a crybaby on the field. He has zero personality. He loves his cheating coach. Throw in he got a better QB traded. Aaron Hernandez. The crappy refs who love him. He is a media creation.

    And this entire comment shows are dumb people are and not everyone should have internet access

  39. He is too humble to call himself “the GOAT,” but he called himself the “baddest m-Fer on the planet” a few weeks ago and called himself “the best decision this organization has ever made” when he was drafted… He is commonly known to be one of the most arrogant players in the NFL. I guess he puts on his humble disguise after he wins.

  40. To me Joe Montana is the all time great. However, like his predecessors before him, there were great QBs and he surpassed them. No one will ever have the clutch performance of Joe Cool. That said, I have no problem acknowledging Brady as the new GOAT. What Brady and Belichick have done is truly remarkable in the age of tight salary caps.

  41. Joe Montana had Jerry Rice and Jerry Rice had stickum. Oh and the 49er OLineman admitted to spraying their jerseys so they were ungrabbable.

    Yep, no hint of cheating THERE. Plus when you get to play the Bengals twice in Super Bowls and a Miami team that everyone says is part of the cringeworthy AFC East and a Denver squad who under Reeves were blown out in 3 Super Bowls (with no wins) … yep … quite a feat.

  42. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.
    ———————–
    That’s probably true for most fans of teams. Before social media you never really heard the endless remarks, comments and criticisms of the fans.

  43. I hate the Pats like anything BUT what they’ve done in this salary cap era of NFL football is stunning. Cant believe that’ll be done again.

    Team loses lots of stars over the years but slots in decent FA players. Shows what consistency can do for a team with the same HC/QB for years on end.

  44. The problem I have with Brady being called the GOAT is his playoff and moreso his Super Bowl play. Both in the playoffs and Super Bowl Brady’s stats go down from his regular season stats. On the biggest stage (Super Bowl), Brady has been pretty average overall.

    In Brady’s first Super Bowl vs the Rams his offense could only muster 13 points despite 3 turnovers by the Pats defense. Against the Eagles (Brady’s 3rd SB) the Pats defense had 4 turnovers and Brady’s offense only scored 24 points. 14 and 17 points in two tries vs the Giants in Super Bowls. Just 13 points for Brady’s offense in this one. That’s a 16.2 points per game average for Brady offenses in 5 Super Bowl games.

    We all saw last years Super Bowl where Brady fumbles with the game on the line. And putting up 34 points on the 27th ranked scoring defense (Falcons) is nothing to chest thump about when virtually every team in the league was doing that to the Falcons D – 10 teams put up 28-34 points on the Falcons that year.

    So there are 7 Super Bowls of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls where he had average to less than average games or blew the game at the end (last year vs Philly). That’s not a GOAT like quality. To under perform in the biggest game. Belichick is the real GOAT with respects to New England’s unmatched playoff/Super Bowl run.

    And Joe Montana is by far the GOAT of NFL quarterbacks.

  45. Brady isn’t the GOAT, Joe Montana remains the true GOAT.
    ————————————————

    Brady now has as many playoff wins and super bowl rings as Joe Montana and Peyton Manning combined. You can blame the era and rule changes all you want, but that doesn’t explain why Brady has triple the number of rings as any other QB in the same era.

  46. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

    Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans

  47. endtimesparty says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:33 am

    Joe Montana had Jerry Rice and Jerry Rice had stickum.

    ——————————-

    No, Joe Montana didn’t use stickum. So leave Joe out of the discussion, Joe can only control what Joe does. Joe also won two Super Bowls before Jerry Rice got there. And today’s NFL players use gloves that are the equivalent of stickum.

  48. TruthfulDolphinsFanNotWearingBlinders says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:29 am
    Greatest system QB, not even a close 2nd!

    ————-

    If that system is hard work, team first attitude, humility, leadership and attention to detail then you are absolutely correct. I wish someone on my team embrace such a system.

  49. Brady is, without question, one of the greatest to play the game. He has a great competitive fire. It is hard to say, if there is really anyone that could be called the GOAT. The rules, the game in general, and the equipment has changed so much over the history of the NFL it’s hard to compare player to player in different eras. I think the best that can be done is select a group of players tied for 1st.

  50. Three most ridiculous terms used in these posts:
    GOAT – If Montana, Marino,Brady,Manning, Brees, Rodgers or anyone you have at the top had to play on a beaten down grass field wearing nothing but a piece of leather on their head and 5 pound cleats on their feet, no trainers, no dieticians, no chiropractors, no sports psychologists, no rules against head shots, lower body shots, spearing, and had to work a full time job to boot, then I doubt they would be the GOAT. We’ll never know
    System Quarterback (as if it’s a negative) – Every QB is in a system. The challenge for any head coach is determine the best system that aligns to the QB’s skill set. Too many QB’s and their coaches try to make them something they are not.
    Dinker/Dunker – (as if it’s a negative) – Post snap read, identify receiver, deliver perfect ball in under 2.5 seconds. This is a skill. If it were easy everyone would do it. See above.

  51. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:37 am
    The problem I have with Brady being called the GOAT is his playoff and moreso his Super Bowl play. Both in the playoffs and Super Bowl Brady’s stats go down from his regular season stats. On the biggest stage (Super Bowl), Brady has been pretty average overall.

    ———

    I guess you missed the SBs against Atlanta and Philadelphia. Brady set and broke his own records for passing in both games. 505 yards passing in a SB? Yeah….the guy stinks.

  52. mullman76 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:21 am

    Kelly Slater is the G.O.A.T.

    11x World Champion.

    Look it up.

    He is untouchable.
    ——————–

    I found a surf bum named Kelly Slater. Are you saying a surfer is the GOAT? Lol.

  53. 49ersfury says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:15 am
    I think Elway is the GOAT to be honest. If Shanahan(the Shanahan after the 49ers developed him) and Elway had 20 years together they would probable have at least 8 Lombardi’s.
    ———————-

    Maybe, but the fines for cheating would have likely bankrupted the organization. Besides, Terrell Davis is the one responsible for their Super Bowl wins.

  54. SWFLPC.INC says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:46 am

    I guess you missed the SBs against Atlanta and Philadelphia. Brady set and broke his own records for passing in both games. 505 yards passing in a SB? Yeah….the guy stinks.

    —————————

    I guess you missed copying my comments about those two games in your response. About how Brady blew the Eagles game at the end with a fumble. And how scoring 34 points on the 27th ranked scoring defense (Falcons) isn’t much of an accomplishment considering 10 NFL teams put up 28-34 points on the Falcons that year.

  55. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:42 am

    Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans
    ——————————————————————–

    This is what I have been saying on this site for a long time. No one listens, or cares. When the Steelers were making negative headlines, and the whole fan choking incident went down, there were plenty of fans of other teams (many of which were Pats’ “fans”) saying what a classless FANBASE the Steelers have, as if negative stuff doesn’t happen week after week in NFL cities across America. Unfortunately, this is the world we live in today. Too many people are internet warriors, hiding behind their computer screen.

  56. “The reason you hate is because you’re jealous and small.”

    No. I told you exactly why. I think Brady is an arrogant jerk on the field, but most guys as successful as he has been will be. I don’t even really hold it against him, it’s just what you expect. Belicheck has tainted his own legacy with his cheating early in his coaching, however, he’s proven since then that he is the best HC the NFL has seen, in terms of success. Just a genius. I would love to sit down with him and watch game film just to hear him break everything he sees down.

    But more to the point. I enjoy the NFL as entertainment. I have friends, family, etc that root for all different teams. It’s fun to watch, give each other heck and have a good time. Above any and all other fanbases, Pats fans are the most obnoxious. They are absolutely miserable to be around. As I said, like Pavlov’s Dog they are trained to mutter GOAT anytime the work Tom is said. They believe because Belichick is a genius, they are, by association, as smart and know how exactly to run every team in the NFL to make them successful. So yeah, I loathe the Pats. Football is much more enjoyable without any Pats fans around. Give me a room of Cowboys fans, during a Steelers/Cowboys game for 3 hours over a 2-minute conversation with a Patriots fan.
    Jealousy – Doubtful. In fact, the Pats were just able to catch up to the Steelers a couple days ago, in terms of SBs. Only about a decade behind them. I’ve been lucky to have watched my team in 4 SBs in my lifetime, which is more than quite a few NFL teams. It’s all entertainment. At the end of the day, my life isn’t tied to my team.

  57. Folks, quit fighting it. I’m a Packers fan and there’s no doubt Brady is the most successful all time QB. I wonder though how much this win truly helps his legacy. It reminded me more of Manning’s last Super Bowl, where the QB’s role was not difference maker but rather, stay out of the way and don’t screw it up.

  58. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:37 am
    The problem I have with Brady being called the GOAT is his playoff and moreso his Super Bowl play. Both in the playoffs and Super Bowl Brady’s stats go down from his regular season stats. On the biggest stage (Super Bowl), Brady has been pretty average overall.

    ———

    I guess you missed the SBs against Atlanta and Philadelphia. Brady set and broke his own records for passing in both games. 505 yards passing in a SB? Yeah….the guy stinks

    He also left out his second SB vs the panthers

  59. steelerfanjo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:10 am
    He isn’t even close to being great at all. What has he done? Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches? He did nothing Sunday. He loses Super Bowls all the time. He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating. They get 6 free wins each year. He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched. He is a crybaby on the field. He has zero personality. He loves his cheating coach. Throw in he got a better QB traded. Aaron Hernandez. The crappy refs who love him. He is a media creation.

    —————————————–

    A single excuse is more convincing than many.

  60. Brady is the greatest of his generation, but he even agrees that you can’t say “of all time” because too many factors have changed. Glad to see him being humble — many more athletes (Lebron) could learn from his example.

  61. Brady is the GOAT of longevity. His Super Bowl and playoff numbers pale in comparison to Montana’s though.

  62. “Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans”

    I regularly travel to Maine and Boston because my wifes family is from there. For weeks at a time I am in the middle of Pats fans every year. I’ve gone to games in Gilette. Trust me, I’m fairly well traveled and am not basing my opinion on a “handful of people on the internet”.
    You’re a moron for assuming you know anything about me or my opinions. Back down, troll.

  63. granadafan says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:32 am
    To me Joe Montana is the all time great. However, like his predecessors before him, there were great QBs and he surpassed them. No one will ever have the clutch performance of Joe Cool.

    There never has been a more clutch performance than that we witnessed vs Atlanta 2 years ago. 3-28, the greatest comeback in SB history. Unless coming back in SB 14 counts. Or 2x vs Ravens down 14. Should I go on?

  64. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:02 pm
    “Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans”

    I regularly travel to Maine and Boston because my wifes family is from there. For weeks at a time I am in the middle of Pats fans every year. I’ve gone to games in Gilette. Trust me, I’m fairly well traveled and am not basing my opinion on a “handful of people on the internet”.
    You’re a moron for assuming you know anything about me or my opinions. Back down, troll.

    So again, you’re saying in your “travels “ EVERY Patriots fan you have met is somehow rude or negative to you in some way that made you form this opinion of all Patriots fans?

    If yes, then you are a moron and are not being honest

  65. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:58 am

    He also left out his second SB vs the panthers

    —————————–

    I also left out his game vs Seattle, which was his best Super Bowl performance.

    The problem is a couple of great performances don’t outweigh the fact that in 5 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls (that’s over half), Brady’s offense has averaged a pathetic 16.2 points a game.

  66. He’s right. He’s not the GOAT. He’s just been fortunate to play on teams coached by Belichick his entire career.

    It’s weird that he’s getting so much credit after putting up 13 points Sunday against a bad pass defense.

    This idea of QBs getting all the credit for wins is moronic. They’re not pitchers… football is a team game.

    Dan Marino is as good as anybody who ever played football, including Tom Brady, and he didn’t get a ring.

  67. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:02 pm
    “Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans”

    I regularly travel to Maine and Boston because my wifes family is from there. For weeks at a time I am in the middle of Pats fans every year. I’ve gone to games in Gilette. Trust me, I’m fairly well traveled and am not basing my opinion on a “handful of people on the internet”.
    You’re a moron for assuming you know anything about me or my opinions. Back down, troll.

    Gee, Pats fans don’t like you? can’t imagine why.

  68. steelerfanjo says:

    February 5, 2019 at 11:10 am

    He isn’t even close to being great at all. What has he done? Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches? He did nothing Sunday. He loses Super Bowls all the time. He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating. They get 6 free wins each year. He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched. He is a crybaby on the field. He has zero personality. He loves his cheating coach. Throw in he got a better QB traded. Aaron Hernandez. The crappy refs who love him. He is a media creation.

    ___________________________________
    Wow. I’m glad that you’re not jealous or bitter…You’re right. I’d much rather be a Steeler fan, whose team fights like little kids, and the HC lets it happen. How far did they get?

  69. I really try not to find amusement in the misfortune of others but when it comes to Patriots and Brady haters it is just too comical.

    Let’s just deconstruct one post from a self-described Steelers Fan above.

    “What has he done?” Won more than anyone in the Super Bowl era.

    “Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches?” This is pro football, not college. Winning margins don’t matter unless you bet on the game.

    “He did nothing Sunday.” He had a 100 QB rating in the fourth quarter and went 4 for 4 on the winning drive.

    “He loses Super Bowls all the time.” He’s won six and lost three.

    “He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating.” No. The NFL admitted as much in federal court.

    “They get 6 free wins each year.” Their winning percentage outside the division is as good as inside the division.

    “He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched.” I believe you are mistaking him for Bill Polian and Peyton Manning.

    “He is a crybaby on the field.” Opposing players say he is one of the toughest QB’s they ever played against and he congratulate’s them on good hits.

    “He has zero personality.” He married a super model and is universally loved by his teammates and his extended family.

    “He loves his cheating coach.” Try changing “cheating” to “winning”; it is more respect than love but so what?

    “Throw in he got a better QB traded.” Bledsoe wasn’t better and neither was Garoppolo.

    “Aaron Hernandez.” Bizarre guilt by association.

    “The crappy refs who love him.” This borders on deranged.

    “He is a media creation.” The media lives off Brady, not vice versa.

  70. I tend to believe it’s more Belichick than Brady, but it’s close. Like 60/40 Belichick. But both are top 1-2 all time & when you pair them together you get 9 SB appearances with 6 SB wins. If they were separated I think Brady may get 1-2 with an above average head coach & Belicheck may get 2-3 with an above average QB.

    The only other player you could make an argument for is Montana.

  71. No, sorry he’s not the goat, great qb yes. I’d still take Montana considering he never lost a superbowl and did it cleanly. The patriots were under investigation for spygate, deflategate which hurt Bradys legacy in my opinion. Brady could easily literally been a GOAT if it weren’t Russell Wilson, the Atlanta Falcons crumble and Goff having the worst showing qb ever.

  72. Kelly Slater is the G.O.A.T.

    11x World Champion.

    Look it up.

    He is untouchable.

    Jordan, Nicklaus, Gretzky, Ruth, Slater.

    Kelly Slater is NOT a professional football player. When talking about Brady and GOAT status, people are referring to football players. Not athletes in other sports.

  73. No, Joe Montana didn’t use stickum. So leave Joe out of the discussion, Joe can only control what Joe does. Joe also won two Super Bowls before Jerry Rice got there. And today’s NFL players use gloves that are the equivalent of stickum.

    ____

    Yeah, Joe didn’t know what Jerry was doing!!! Jerry and Joe never talked, weren’t in the same locker room, never practiced together – how would Joe know?….leave Joe alone!
    You’re not this naive are you?

    Also:
    Gloves = legal
    Stickum = not legal
    See the difference?

  74. “Gee, Pats fans don’t like you? can’t imagine why.”

    Of course they don’t. If you don’t utter GOAT every other sentence, they hate you.

  75. The problem is a couple of great performances don’t outweigh the fact that in 5 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls (that’s over half), Brady’s offense has averaged a pathetic 16.2 points a game

    He’s also faced BETTER teams in the SB than Montana EVER did
    There was a reason the NFC won 11 or 12 SB in a row.

  76. “So again, you’re saying in your “travels “ EVERY Patriots fan you have met is somehow rude or negative to you in some way that made you form this opinion of all Patriots fans?

    If yes, then you are a moron and are not being honest”

    Point out where I said that every Patriot’s fan I have met is rude and negative?
    I talked about the fanbase as a whole, not every single fan. The fact that you can’t differentiate those two, shows you are subjectively blinded. But again, that’s not shocking. You are a Pats fan and seem to fall inside that normal Bell curve for the fanbase.
    Now I’ll wait until you post when I said that, otherwise move on Troll.

  77. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:08 pm
    Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:58 am

    He also left out his second SB vs the panthers

    —————————–

    I also left out his game vs Seattle, which was his best Super Bowl performance.

    The problem is a couple of great performances don’t outweigh the fact that in 5 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls (that’s over half), Brady’s offense has averaged a pathetic 16.2 points a game.

    ——
    And you said I wasn’t being objective? 😀

  78. psj3809 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:36 am
    I hate the Pats like anything BUT what they’ve done in this salary cap era of NFL football is stunning. Cant believe that’ll be done again.

    Team loses lots of stars over the years but slots in decent FA players. Shows what consistency can do for a team with the same HC/QB for years on end.

    ———-

    To me, this is exactly why Belicheck is more responsible for their success. The roster churn on this team & turning nobodies into heroes is crazy. He pays & keeps the right guys & lets everyone else move on. In addition to his GM geniuses he gameplans better than any coach ever. He changes his system & scheme for every game.

    It’s close, but I’d give Belicheck 60% of the credit for this teams run & Brady 40%.

  79. And Joe Montana is by far the GOAT of NFL quarterbacks.

    Again you are entitled to your opinion, but just know that opinion is now in the minority. And it’s not close.

  80. It’s funny that fans of fading teams like the Steelers try to denigrate the impossible accomplishment of this franchise during it’s unprecedented 20 year run in a time of free agency, salary caps and forced parity by the league. It’s as if Steeler fans are impressed with their nice little 4 SB run during a time when dynasty’s were relatively commonplace (Packers, Phins, Steelers, Cowboys then 49ers) but faded into mediocrity once faced with the league’s imposed obstacles. Although most Steeler fans I’ve met are mouth breathers, so this whole post is probably going right over their heads.

  81. joker65 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:21 pm

    Jerry and Joe never talked, weren’t in the same locker room, never practiced together – how would Joe know?….leave Joe alone!
    You’re not this naive are you?

    Also:
    Gloves = legal
    Stickum = not legal
    See the difference?

    ——————————-

    Again Joe won two Super Bowls without Jerry. And Joe isn’t Jerry’s mom and doesn’t tell him how to dress or what to wear on game days. That would be on Coach Walsh.

  82. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:23 pm
    The problem is a couple of great performances don’t outweigh the fact that in 5 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls (that’s over half), Brady’s offense has averaged a pathetic 16.2 points a game

    He’s also faced BETTER teams in the SB than Montana EVER did
    There was a reason the NFC won 11 or 12 SB in a row.

    —–

    This has to be a joke. This Rams team, the Eagles with Foles, the weak sauce Falcons, Eli Manning TWICE, Carolina Panthers with Delhomme, Donovan McNabb lol, etc.

    Meanwhile, the 49ers in that era had to go against the Elway Broncos, the 90s Cowboys juggernaut, the Giants with Lawrence Taylor (& Belicheck), the Redskins (who alway won SBs). No wonder the NFC went 11 times in a row. Look at those teams! The salary cap era has weakened the top teams & brought the some bottom tier teams up to the middle of the pack. Back then, 5-6 teams every year would be effing stacked & they stayed stack. It was hard to dig out of the basement back then.

  83. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

    “What pats fans don’t understand is we hate most anything Patriots is them”

    “Them” refers to “Patriots fans” not “some” not a “few” “them” refers to “all”

  84. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:42 am
    endtimesparty says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:33 am

    Joe Montana had Jerry Rice and Jerry Rice had stickum.

    ——————————-

    No, Joe Montana didn’t use stickum. So leave Joe out of the discussion, Joe can only control what Joe does. Joe also won two Super Bowls before Jerry Rice got there. And today’s NFL players use gloves that are the equivalent of stickum.
    —-
    I don’t hold the stickum thing against Joe in this debate.

    I do hold the fact he never won his conference without a top 8 defense against him though. Brady did that. Also he has had more one and dones than Brady and 3 of those in a row where he was terrible in all of them. 🙂

    I’d be careful about dismissing Brsdy’s 500 yard game and his performance against the Falcons. What great team did Montana beat in the Super Bowl?

    Cmon man be objective! 😉

  85. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:21 pm
    “Gee, Pats fans don’t like you? can’t imagine why.”

    Of course they don’t. If you don’t utter GOAT every other sentence, they hate you.

    Here I was thinking that it was your winning personality.

  86. “That’s probably true for most fans of teams. Before social media you never really heard the endless remarks, comments and criticisms of the fans.”

    I am completely inactive on social media. It’s just an echo chamber of the worse of society fighter over who is worse. There is little to no intrinsic value left with social media.

  87. I think the best you can do is be on the list of considerations.

    Basketball: Bill Russell (11 Titles), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6 titles), Michael Jordan (6 Titles)

    NFL Quarterbacks: Montana, Brady

    We can certainly call Brady the Most Accomplished QB (MAQB)….I’m sure he would (reluctantly) accept that.

    I love the way he’s carried himself through the era of Manufactured Outrage – that’s better than anything he could do on the field for me. Love him – favorite athlete of all time for me.

  88. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:26 pm

    And Joe Montana is by far the GOAT of NFL quarterbacks.

    Again you are entitled to your opinion, but just know that opinion is now in the minority.

    ——————————-

    It may be in the minority of those who weren’t privy to witness Joe Montana’s playing career. Which is really a worthless opinion.

    For those of us who watched Montana play from the start to the end of his career as well as Brady. I suspect that the percentage sways to Montana or is at least closer to even. As you’ve seen by the many Montana posts here today.

  89. “savethebs says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:16 pm
    I tend to believe it’s more Belichick than Brady, but it’s close. Like 60/40 Belichick. But both are top 1-2 all time & when you pair them together you get 9 SB appearances with 6 SB wins. If they were separated I think Brady may get 1-2 with an above average head coach & Belicheck may get 2-3 with an above average QB.

    The only other player you could make an argument for is Montana.”

    I think you’re about spot on. Neither would be as successful without the other. Bill is the ultimate HC in developing a gameplan, Brady is accurate, terribly smart and does not hold onto the ball. He makes few mistakes and Bill puts the team in the best position to win more often than not.

  90. Montana’s passer rating for his 3 one and dones in a row: 65.6, 34.2, 42.0. Not even Tebow did that badly.

    Cherry picking stats out of context is fun! 🙂

  91. I like Brady’s answer, and one has to have perspective on this question. Among other issues, how much of Brady’s success can be attributed to Belichick and vice versa? What would the result have been if Aaron Rodgers or Peyton Manning had Belichick or Bill Walsh as their coaches? What if Belichick never had a superstar QB at all? I am certainly willing to acknowledge Brady is a superstar QB and Belichick is a great coach. But regarding GOAT, you have to reflect on how the stars aligned.

  92. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:26 pm

    And you said I wasn’t being objective?

    —————————-

    You were trying to take out passes to Chris Hogan to pad Brady’s passer rating (even when Brady’s first pass to Hogan, an interception, was on Brady). While I was simply pointing out Brady’s average to less than average performances in his Super Bowl games. There’s no comparison.

  93. steelerfanjo says:

    February 5, 2019 at 11:10 am

    He isn’t even close to being great at all. What has he done? Barely win games with help of kickers or idiot opposing coaches? He did nothing Sunday. He loses Super Bowls all the time. He has been caught cheating. His team has been caught cheating. They get 6 free wins each year. He gets every call. He has whined so the league has changed the rules so he can’t be touched. He is a crybaby on the field. He has zero personality. He loves his cheating coach. Throw in he got a better QB traded. Aaron Hernandez. The crappy refs who love him. He is a media creation.

    Patriot Derangement Syndrome

  94. Most accomplished? No question.
    GOAT system QB? No question.
    GOAT? Plenty of questions still left unanswered.

    Montana had success without Bill Walsh, Manning had success without Tony Dungy,
    Elway had success without Mike Shanahan,
    Brady never had success without Belichick.

  95. Meanwhile, the 49ers in that era had to go against the Elway Broncos, the 90s Cowboys juggernaut, the Giants with Lawrence Taylor (& Belicheck), the Redskins (who alway won SBs). No wonder the NFC went 11 times in a row. Look at those teams! The salary cap era has weakened the top teams & brought the some bottom tier teams up to the middle of the pack. Back then, 5-6 teams every year would be effing stacked & they stayed stack. It was hard to dig out of the basement back then.


    The Broncos, really? They beat the Broncos 55-10 yeah The was a tough one.

    All the “tough “ teams you mentioned are in the NFC

    WHEN he did get to the SB he played JV teams

    He never faced a D in the SB like Seattle had or the D line of those Giants teams.

  96. To me if you’re not breaking new ground in your sport in a way people will still be talking about you 40 years from now, then you cannot possibly be GOAT.

    Brady is doing that and people will. The man won 3 Super Bowls in 4 tries when he was older than the age Montana retired…and played well enough to great in all of them.

  97. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:33 pm

    What great team did Montana beat in the Super Bowl?

    ——————————

    Montana’s offense (5 touchdown passes) put up 55 points on the #1 ranked defense (Denver) in the NFL who were only giving up 14 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 38 points on the #7 ranked defense (Miami) who were only giving up 18 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 26 points on the Bengals defense who were only giving up 19 points a game.

  98. This has to be a joke. This Rams team, the Eagles with Foles, the weak sauce Falcons, Eli Manning TWICE, Carolina Panthers with Delhomme, Donovan McNabb lol, etc.

    —-
    Why is that a joke? And I didn’t know Brady played directly against McNabb on defense 🙂

    The Foles Eagles would have rolled the 80’s Bengals. Both times. No question about it. I think you get where I’m going with this. 🙂

  99. “Here I was thinking that it was your winning personality.”

    Don’t be so facetious. It’s evident you are incapable of actual thought.

  100. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:58 am
    What Pats fans don’t understand that the reason we hate most anything Patriots is them, not the team or players.

    ——-

    don’t fool yourself; we are well aware.

    I can only imagine how much it gets under the skin of Steelers fans that the Patriots also have 6 SB wins.

  101. I am completely inactive on social media. It’s just an echo chamber of the worse of society fighter over who is worse. There is little to no intrinsic value left with social media.

    —–

    what on earth do you think this is? PFT is a media outlet….the comments section is the social part of it. take a look in the mirror dude.

  102. I have been a rabid Pro Football fan even before I threw tomatoes at Dandy Don while wearing a brown sack with eye holes, but if in what little of my lifetime is left I see that Tom Brady is playing in a Super Bowl I will never attend or watch another Pro Football game, or allow my offspring to do so. WWE does a much better scripting.

  103. Deric Gregory says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:02 pm
    Brady is the GOAT of longevity. His Super Bowl and playoff numbers pale in comparison to Montana’s though.
    —————————————

    Let’s take a look at some of those ‘playoff numbers’ as starters shall we?
    Career One n Dones:
    Joe Cool: 4
    TB12: 2
    Team did not make playoffs:
    Joe Cool: 2
    TB12: 1
    Number of times failed to get to SB
    Joe Cool: 9
    TB12: 8
    Failed to get to Championship Game:
    Joe Cool: 6
    TB12: 4
    Number of times benched in playoffs:
    Joe Cool: 1
    TB12: 0

    You’re right, Montana leads in every one of those categories.

  104. patsfan4lifesbchamps says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:50 pm
    Most accomplished? No question.
    GOAT system QB? No question.
    GOAT? Plenty of questions still left unanswered.

    Montana had success without Bill Walsh, Manning had success without Tony Dungy,
    Elway had success without Mike Shanahan,
    Brady never had success without Belichick.

    As a Jets fan masquerading as a Patriots fan with that fake screen name, I really can’t take anything you say seriously.

  105. savethebs says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:26 pm
    psj3809 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 11:36 am
    I hate the Pats like anything BUT what they’ve done in this salary cap era of NFL football is stunning. Cant believe that’ll be done again.

    Team loses lots of stars over the years but slots in decent FA players. Shows what consistency can do for a team with the same HC/QB for years on end.

    ———-

    To me, this is exactly why Belicheck is more responsible for their success. The roster churn on this team & turning nobodies into heroes is crazy. He pays & keeps the right guys & lets everyone else move on. In addition to his GM geniuses he gameplans better than any coach ever. He changes his system & scheme for every game.

    It’s close, but I’d give Belicheck 60% of the credit for this teams run & Brady 40%.

    ————————-
    Brady has no track record away from Belichick at least since college so how would he do? We don’t know for sure. I happen to think he has the work ethic and the drive to be extremely successful no matter what team he was on.

    Belichick has somewhat of a track record away from Brady. Turned the sad Browns into the verge of a Super Bowl contender that got put over the top as the Ravens. One of the great defensive minds the sport has ever seen (and he proved it again on Sunday he’s still got it). Prevented what would have been a disaster of a season in 2008 and in 2016. However he has zero Super Bowl rings without Brady and zero playoff appearances.

    I think Belichick the GM is criminally underrated. He turned a team on the cutting edge of great offense in this league to a running powerhouse to exploit defenses around the league who are being built to stop this offensive explosion

    I doubt many QBs in this league could work and be successful with Belichick. I will never believe that an Aaron Rodgers could come in here and win titles. His ego wouldn’t allow him to be coached by a guy like Bill. It wouldn’t work out. All the RoDGErs wOulD WIn TeN RiNGs talk is meaningless noise to me.

    Translation: Both Brady and Belichick together made this team what it is today. I’m not going to tear down one at the expense of the other 🙂

  106. Yeah, I’m a pats fan and I post all the negative stuff I can about him so he will win more Superbowls. I’m thinking four more Superbowl wins is reachable by the time he hits 45. I like it win he makes people’s heads explodes. Reminds me of that movie Scanners.

  107. ““What pats fans don’t understand is we hate most anything Patriots is them”

    “Them” refers to “Patriots fans” not “some” not a “few” “them” refers to “all”

    Them refers to the fanbase. Not individual people. Just like, Deer are brown in the winter and reddish in the summer. That is by and large what they are. However there are variations that exist in individual animals, pigmentation differences or lack of. However, the general statement covers what you expect when you encounter a deer. By saying the Pats fanbase is the reason we find the Patriots intolerable does not equate to every Pats fan being a jerk.
    You quoted me as saying that I’ve never met a Pats fan that wasn’t rude or negative. I asked you to point out where I said exactly that, you go back and try to construe what I said to mean that.
    Case in point.
    I’ve met enough Pats fans in different areas, arenas, geographical; some I’ve known for a long time, some I just met in passing, to know that by and large, when I meet a Pats fan, there is a greater likelihood it’s going to be a miserable time as compared to any other fanbase I interact with. It’s not an internet sample, it’s not 5 people. You don’t like it, get over it or try and change. Otherwise just accept it and move on. In the end, I could care less what you think. You are proving yourself to be more the rule, than the exception to it Troll.

  108. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:57 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:33 pm

    What great team did Montana beat in the Super Bowl?

    ——————————

    Montana’s offense (5 touchdown passes) put up 55 points on the #1 ranked defense (Denver) in the NFL who were only giving up 14 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 38 points on the #7 ranked defense (Miami) who were only giving up 18 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 26 points on the Bengals defense who were only giving up 19 points a game.

    Yeah , all those teams. Sucked

    SIX will always be more than 4
    Deal with it.

    GOAT x 6

    Steve young “Tom Brady is the greatest Qab ever”
    Dion Sanders “Tom Brady is the GOAT “

    I can go on.

    Like I said , you are entitled to your opinion but know that opinion is the minority now.

  109. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:57 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:33 pm

    What great team did Montana beat in the Super Bowl?

    ——————————

    Montana’s offense (5 touchdown passes) put up 55 points on the #1 ranked defense (Denver) in the NFL who were only giving up 14 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 38 points on the #7 ranked defense (Miami) who were only giving up 18 points a game.

    Montana’s offense put up 26 points on the Bengals defense who were only giving up 19 points a game.


    Only the Broncos back then I’d consider a good team. Not great. They would have been destroyed by the 14 Seahawks, the 01 Rams and even the 04 Eagles.

    The others were the best of an inferior conference and nothing more. 18-19 points a game was nothing special back then. I looked at the defensive rankings of those teams and there’s nothing I was all that impressed with.

  110. “what on earth do you think this is? PFT is a media outlet….the comments section is the social part of it. take a look in the mirror dude.”

    Social media is generally defined as Twitte, Facebook, Instagram and the like. I don’t consider a comment section of a webpage to be social media. But if you do, then my only social media interaction is PFT and a couple other team related blogs.
    By the way, a media outlet doesn’t equate to social media. Social media is a platform used for people to interact solely based on connection. A media outlet uses print, web, visual or other media to post news and opinion. I hope you understand the difference, dude.

  111. excitablegusjohnson says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:30 pm
    It’s funny that fans of fading teams like the Steelers try to denigrate the impossible accomplishment of this franchise during it’s unprecedented 20 year run in a time of free agency, salary caps and forced parity by the league. It’s as if Steeler fans are impressed with their nice little 4 SB run during a time when dynasty’s were relatively commonplace (Packers, Phins, Steelers, Cowboys then 49ers) but faded into mediocrity once faced with the league’s imposed obstacles. Although most Steeler fans I’ve met are mouth breathers, so this whole post is probably going right over their heads.

    ————————————————–

    See what I mean?

  112. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:45 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:26 pm

    And you said I wasn’t being objective?

    —————————-

    You were trying to take out passes to Chris Hogan to pad Brady’s passer rating (even when Brady’s first pass to Hogan, an interception, was on Brady). While I was simply pointing out Brady’s average to less than average performances in his Super Bowl games. There’s no comparison.
    ————————
    I said it because it was important to know for for context. He was 0-6 to one target and it shows how you can’t judge by stats alone. Hogan could not get open. The INT was a coverage misread by Brady and nothing more.

    The “He WaS So Baad!1!1” talk…is simply not true. And I am being objective.

  113. “I can only imagine how much it gets under the skin of Steelers fans that the Patriots also have 6 SB wins.”

    It doesn’t bother me at all. As I said, I don’t tie my happiness to my team. It’s all entertainment. I actually enjoyed the SB, despite the low score.
    But I guess it gets under your skin when your team’s success doesn’t make others froth at the mouth. Usually, that’s a good indicator that you don’t have much else in your life.

  114. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:58 pm

    The Foles Eagles would have rolled the 80’s Bengals

    —————————-

    The Foles Eagles would have never gotten by the Legendary 49ers, Giants, Bears or Redskins NFC teams of the 80s. Much less gotten by the Reggie White/Buddy Ryan lead Eagles of the late 80s. Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner, Andre Waters, Eric Allen etc would have destroyed Foles.

  115. And throwing out stats is stupid, they didn’t play the same teams

    If that’s the case why do they never call Dan Marino the GOAT his stats blow Montana’s away and they played in the same time.

    They always called Montana the GOAT (up until a few years ago) because he won 4.

    Brady has 6 thats all people will remember (the ONLY Pplayer with 6)

  116. His goat-ness should be undisputed. Even Bradys regular season numbers alone reflect an all time great qb.
    517 TDs (behind Brees and Manning)
    171 Ints (2nd best ratio behind Rodgers)
    70k pass yards (behind brees and manning)

    And since he’ll continue to play he’ll surpass Manning. This is the regular season alone people.

    Now add the complete Avalanche of postseason success and youve got the goat

  117. gysot says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:20 am
    What about “the cell phone smasher”
    ———————————————–

    Regardless of what you think about Deflategate, only an idiot would hand his phone over to the NFL and Roger Goodell.

  118. For those of us who watched Montana play from the start to the end of his career

    I saw it. He played with an all-star team. Montana’s back up is now in the Hall.

  119. erinrodgersreachednirvana says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:45 am
    He’s the greatest ever. The conversation is over.
    __________________________________________________

    The conversation obviously isn’t over as we are having it here. I laugh at people who are convinced their opinion is an actual fact. They obviously don’t understand the definition of the word ‘opinion’ – but I digress…

  120. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:45 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:26 pm

    And you said I wasn’t being objective?

    —————————-

    You were trying to take out passes to Chris Hogan to pad Brady’s passer rating (even when Brady’s first pass to Hogan, an interception, was on Brady). While I was simply pointing out Brady’s average to less than average performances in his Super Bowl games. There’s no comparison.

    —-
    I think it’s interesting that I was accused of not being objective by the same poster that took a record breaking Super Bowl performance and zeroed in on a strip sack (which btw 90% of the time is not on the QB) as “evidence” that Brady isn’t great in Super Bowls. 🙂

  121. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:43 pm

    Montana’s passer rating for his 3 one and dones in a row: 65.6, 34.2, 42.0

    —————————

    The last two Montana was knocked out before halftime of both games.

    Remember those were the days of head hunting quarterbacks, below the knees shots on quarterbacks and back when the quarterbacks didn’t wear military grade kevlar (you ever looked at all the kevlar poking out from Brady’s backside under his uniform?).

  122. Greatest of his era – unfair to compare otherwise. If Brady played in Montana’s era his career would be over years ago with a 3-2 record in Super Bowls. If Montana was able to play for the 49ers until 40 he’d easily have 6 Super Bowls.

  123. excitablegusjohnson says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:30 pm
    It’s funny that fans of fading teams like the Steelers try to denigrate the impossible accomplishment of this franchise during it’s unprecedented 20 year run in a time of free agency, salary caps and forced parity by the league. It’s as if Steeler fans are impressed with their nice little 4 SB run during a time when dynasty’s were relatively commonplace (Packers, Phins, Steelers, Cowboys then 49ers) but faded into mediocrity once faced with the league’s imposed obstacles. Although most Steeler fans I’ve met are mouth breathers, so this whole post is probably going right over their heads.
    ————————————————————–

    Prime example what I was talking about earlier.

    I would like to know though, since it was sooooo easy back in the day, where was the Patriots Dynasty of the 1960s/70s?

  124. If Montana was able to play for the 49ers until 40 he’d easily have 6 Super Bowls.


    No way.

  125. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:17 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:58 pm

    The Foles Eagles would have rolled the 80’s Bengals

    —————————-

    The Foles Eagles would have never gotten by the Legendary 49ers, Giants, Bears or Redskins NFC teams of the 80s. Much less gotten by the Reggie White/Buddy Ryan lead Eagles of the late 80s. Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner, Andre Waters, Eric Allen etc would have destroyed Foles.

    —-
    They would have steamrolled the inferior AFC competition of the day. And those defenses would have had a lot of problems against the RPO offense.

  126. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:28 pm
    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:43 pm

    Montana’s passer rating for his 3 one and dones in a row: 65.6, 34.2, 42.0

    —————————

    The last two Montana was knocked out before halftime of both games.

    Remember those were the days of head hunting quarterbacks, below the knees shots on quarterbacks and back when the quarterbacks didn’t wear military grade kevlar (you ever looked at all the kevlar poking out from Brady’s backside under his uniform?).


    A 34 passer rating is Tebow-like. Even if it was only for a half. 🙂

    Point is – he had his stinkers. Funny what happens with that top 8 defense!

  127. afwhigs says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:23 pm
    gysot says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:20 am
    What about “the cell phone smasher”
    ———————————————–

    Regardless of what you think about Deflategate, only an idiot would hand his phone over to the NFL and Roger Goodell.

    ————–
    I love how the narrative turned he got rid of his phone into “He SMAsHED HiZ FonE!!!” 😀

    The leaked emails prove without a doubt that he was 100% right to do so. I would have done the same thing.

  128. Brady earned his place in the GOAT conversation.

    Honestly look at Montana. 4 Lombardis in 9 years. Imagine if he played in today’s era where you can’t Tee off on the QB and he had a 20 year career with Bill Walsh or A coach like Holmgren and Shanahan for all 20. He’d easily have 8 Lombardi’s. He’d have about 7 in his era of it weren’t for a phantom pass interference call in the 83 championship game and Belichick didn’t have his d Linemen knock Montana out of a couple of playoff games.

    Montana is the GOAT and Brady is in the GOAT conversation. I’d personally pick Elway over any QB though.

  129. thewizardsrevenge says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:24 pm

    For those of us who watched Montana play from the start to the end of his career

    I saw it. He played with an all-star team.

    —————————–

    Then you should be able to name the all stars from Montana’s first Super Bowl team (’81) out of these skill position players. Paul Hofer? Ricky Patton? Bill Ring? Johnny Davis? Earl Cooper? Freddie Solomon? Mike Wilson? Charley Young?

  130. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:02 pm
    “Then you’re a MORON
    You don’t know all Patriots fans. So if you are basing your opinion on a handful you may have interacted with on the internet then you can say that about EVERY teams fans”

    I regularly travel to Maine and Boston because my wifes family is from there. For weeks at a time I am in the middle of Pats fans every year. I’ve gone to games in Gilette. Trust me, I’m fairly well traveled and am not basing my opinion on a “handful of people on the internet”.
    You’re a moron for assuming you know anything about me or my opinions. Back down, troll
    ——————————————————————————–
    That’s only half of the equation. There’s 31 other bases that you’ve compared us to. I spend quite a bit of time in the South Jersey area. Philly fans – equally as obnoxious. I spend quite a bit of time in Brooklyn – Jets/Giants fans – equally as obnoxious. I was ignored in a bar ther because I was wearing a Pats pullover not mention all the comments as I walked around. There’s no scale, no criteria for you to make such outlandish remarks.

  131. canedaddy says:
    February 5, 2019 at 12:09 pm
    He’s right. He’s not the GOAT. He’s just been fortunate to play on teams coached by Belichick his entire career.

    It’s weird that he’s getting so much credit after putting up 13 points Sunday against a bad pass defense.

    This idea of QBs getting all the credit for wins is moronic. They’re not pitchers… football is a team game.

    Dan Marino is as good as anybody who ever played football, including Tom Brady, and he didn’t get a ring.

    ———————————————

    You know, I agree with the idea that QBs get too much credit – but they also get too much blame. I’m not a Pats fan, but the thing is, what they’ve done in the Belichick/Brady era is awesome.

    Brady has had the benefit of running the same offensive system his whole career as a starter. Belichick has had the benefit of having a QB who knows his system and can execute it.

    Regardless, the bottom line is that getting to the SB is really difficult. Marino wasn’t able to get back (and yes, he was one of the greatest of all time) – there are so many moving pieces in the FA and salary cap era. Belichick has managed his personnel and gotten more out of his teams over and over without overspending on free agents.

    Aaron Rogers & Drew Brees are often cited as the best QBs currently playing. They each have one SB win. Obviously it takes more than just a great QB to get there and win.

    How many repeat opponents have the Patriots faced in this era? Even getting to the Championship Game each year is ridiculous. Brady is much more than a game manager, and the Pats put up 13 points on Sunday…and won. Both defenses played well and both offenses were sloppy, at best. It’s a team game, and Brady helped his team get enough points to win. What else matters?

  132. It’s so hard to narrow down GOAT. There’s so many factors. The game has changed so much, more so than any other team sport. And there’s so much that goes into football. All 11 players have to be on point. You can’t take over a game all by yourself. In basketball, hockey, baseball, soccer, you can take over a game. It’s you and the hoop, or you and the net. Or you and the bat against the ball and the pitcher. In football, the QB can’t win by himself. He has to hand the ball off and throw to his receivers. You NEED the other players to help you advance the ball down the field and score points.

    That’s why the QB position is arguably the toughest, most challenging position in all of sports. Football is the most team’d sport of all team sports, I think. It’s difficult to separate the individual achievement and skills from the other players on the field and the coaches. Everyone is working together like a fine-tuned machine. There’s just so so much that goes into offense, defense, special teams. Football is like rocket science compared to other team sports. So much planning and preparation and strategy and critical thinking. It’s the chess of sports.

    So I myself have a hard time calling any of the all-time great QBs the GOAT QB or the GOAT player.

    You have to think like this: One day, Tom will retire. So will Bill. And to a new generation of people, they’ll have never seen Tom play or Bill coach. To them, Tom and Bill will be part of a history they never lived. They will be stats. They can watch film, sure, but you can’t replicate watching 20 years of video and pop culture in real-time, being in that moment. It’s impossible.

    I thought MJ was the GOAT when I was younger. Never did I think someone would surpass him. Yet, there is an argument today with LeBron. It always changes. Because you hold more value in what you’ve seen with your own eyes.

    The people who’ve seen Tom play may say he is the GOAT now. In the far future, there will be another all-time great QB. A few, actually. And to them, those QBs will be competing for GOAT because that new generation never saw Tom play. They didn’t live through it.

    Think about it. Every decade in the NFL there have been all-time great QBs and dynasties. Sid Luckman vs Sammy Baugh. Then Otto Graham and his 7 out of 10 championships (equivalent to AFC/NFC championship game). Then Lombardi and Bart Starr and their dominance. And Johnny U, who was described as the GOAT at that time by many accounts. Now we get into in the 70s with the Steelers and Cowboys. Terry Bradshaw and his 4 SB rings and Rodger Dodger and his 2 rings. Then we have the 80s where the passing game really opened up (well, ’78) and the dominance of Montana and the 49ers with their 4 rings. Throw in Marino, Elway, Kelly, Moon, Young, guys like that. Then later in the 90s with Brett Favre and Troy Aikman and the Dallas dynasty with 3 SB wins. And then we arrive in the 2000s with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben, and so it goes on and on on. And looks like Patrick Mahomes might one day join the all-time great QB list, as will Russel Wilson and others.

    You see. Every decade, we have all-time great teams, all-time great players. And how much this game has changed and continues to change, it’s impossible to truly separate all and rank them and pick an inarguable GOAT, not to mention a GOAT that will stand the test of time.

  133. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:38 pm

    Point is

    ————————-

    Point is the comparison is Montana to Brady. And when it comes to the playoffs and Super Bowls, it’s not even a contest. In the most important of games. Montana outperforms his own regular season stats in both the playoffs and especially so in Super Bowls. Brady doesn’t. Brady regresses in both the playoffs and Super Bowl. End of discussion.

  134. Brady has had the benefit of running the same offensive system his whole career as a starter.


    Same coach yes. Same offensive system… not true at all.

  135. I love Pats and Brady threads it brings out the petty jealousness of most that do not live in NE.

    12 championships in 17 years with all of them winning at least one within a decade

    Boston is the true GOAT

  136. It’s weird that he’s getting so much credit after putting up 13 points Sunday against a bad pass defense.


    I love how all the hype about the Rams line with Suh, Fowler and Donald has turned into “oh it was a bad pass defense”.

    🙂

  137. 49ersfury says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:41 pm
    Brady earned his place in the GOAT conversation.

    Honestly look at Montana. 4 Lombardis in 9 years. Imagine if he played in today’s era where you can’t Tee off on the QB and he had a 20 year career with Bill Walsh or A coach like Holmgren and Shanahan for all 20. He’d easily have 8 Lombardi’s. He’d have about 7 in his era of it weren’t for a phantom pass interference call in the 83 championship game and Belichick didn’t have his d Linemen knock Montana out of a couple of playoff games.

    Montana is the GOAT and Brady is in the GOAT conversation. I’d personally pick Elway over any QB though.

    ———-

    Elway is not even top 5…..maybe not even top 10

  138. Sorry guys, this whole argument about who’s fanbase is this or that is just, in a word, ridiculous. There are jerks in every group. Team A’s drunk and disorderlies are no better or no worse than teams B’s. I always look at it like this, no one likes a braggart, and if someone constantly has to run other people down to make themselves seem superior….they aren’t, much to their surprise, “classy.”

  139. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:41 pm

    Then you should be able to name the all stars from Montana’s first Super Bowl team (’81) out of these skill position players. Paul Hofer? Ricky Patton? Bill Ring? Johnny Davis? Earl Cooper? Freddie Solomon? Mike Wilson? Charley Young?
    —————————————————-
    Don’t forget the great Lenvil Elliot. He gave the 49ers everything he had in the 1981 NFC championship game winning drive.

  140. Does anybody (save Pats fans) believe they suspended Brady and actually upheld the appeal when they knew for a fact he did nothing wrong? Does anyone really believe this? Cheaters always lie about what they do. Over and over and over. Until there is indisputable concrete evidence and they are finally caught once and for all. Tom could have admitted what he did, apologize and then do all he could to make amends to league and fans. But instead of doing the right thing, he stuck to his lies, let others take the blame, tried to convince people he was railroaded and this upstanding guy who would never do such a thing. He has no remorse which is why any respect is difficult for so many to hold for the talent he does have. It’s why he’s never going to live it down, ever. Playing stupid would have also been a better choice. He has no idea how many people would have been upset but still respected him for being honest and trying to somehow fix what he did. He continued to attempt to beat the system and fight a battle he had no business in fighting because of what he did. There ended up being more damage permanent to him because of the continued lies and lack of any remorse. He may have been the greatest guy in the world but the second he committed a wrong he had to own it when caught. He didn’t, still hasn’t and never will. He blew his own reputation and lost a lot because of it. He doesn’t really have to care so he doesn’t. That’s the ultimate arrogance. I get standing by your team but not when they have been clearly caught doing cheating the game, this is wrong on so many levels

  141. In 2014, the team drafted an heir apparent to the 37 year old veteran QB so even their coaching staff don’t believe in his advancing years and longevity. And since then he went on to make it to 4 Super Bowls and win 3…

    Mic drop.

  142. nflhofcounts says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:04 pm
    Does anybody (save Pats fans) believe they suspended Brady and actually upheld the appeal when they knew for a fact he did nothing wrong? Does anyone really believe this?

    —-
    Honestly I’d love to read all that but right now my team has 6 shiny, radiant, luminous rings and it’s hard not to just think of that. And there’s a parade right now! I sure am getting used to this!

    Maybe one day you clowns will actually put a REAL MAN’s team instead of a puny little weakling team out there to face the GOAT Tom Brady. He will appreciate some legit competition as will we all. Toodles! 🙂

  143. 49ersfury says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:01 pm

    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 1:41 pm

    Then you should be able to name the all stars from Montana’s first Super Bowl team (’81) out of these skill position players. Paul Hofer? Ricky Patton? Bill Ring? Johnny Davis? Earl Cooper? Freddie Solomon? Mike Wilson? Charley Young?
    —————————————————-
    Don’t forget the great Lenvil Elliot. He gave the 49ers everything he had in the 1981 NFC championship game winning drive.

    ——————————

    The ex Bengal. I think that was only like the 4th-5th game he got in that year.

  144. ‘Clearly caught cheating and lying’ = that has been PROVEN, in a Court of Law, to be Rodger Goodell.

    Haters keep drinking from that poisoned fountain called Goodell/NFL/Integrity

  145. And it makes everyone outside of Beantown cringe too. What people don’t seem to understand is that there can be no GOAT as time continues. There will always be better players in the future… and ones that aren’t so tainted.

  146. Social media is generally defined as Twitte, Facebook, Instagram and the like. I don’t consider a comment section of a webpage to be social media. But if you do, then my only social media interaction is PFT and a couple other team related blogs.
    By the way, a media outlet doesn’t equate to social media. Social media is a platform used for people to interact solely based on connection. A media outlet uses print, web, visual or other media to post news and opinion. I hope you understand the difference, dude.

    ——

    The bottom line is you are interacting with others on a media platform in a social way that was never done 20 years ago. A lot of the same people come back here daily and comment, troll, argue, whatever you want to call it, because they have a soapbox. In fact, the same debates break out pretty much on a daily basis, often involving the same people.

    I don’t do facebook, twitter, instagram or any of those platforms….but I do understand the nature of comments sections. It just happens to be a little more civilized here than on other platforms because it is moderated to a higher degree. Imagine if it wasn’t.

    Now I get that we’re not all here posting pictures of what we’re eating for dinner, but the fact is that comment sections provide a soapbox to share your thoughts with others. I mean….why else would one write a comment? Do don’t think Florio is going to read your comment and change his point of view, do you?

  147. nflhofcounts says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:04 pm
    Does anybody (save Pats fans) believe they suspended Brady and actually upheld the appeal when they knew for a fact he did nothing wrong

    Um.. for the record the guy (wells) after a 3 month investigation couldn’t say if Brady did anything wrong

    The NFL was asked directly in court “do you have any proof Brady or the Patriots did anything wrong “

    Answer from the NFL, “no we don’t “

    NFL does a PSI study during the season, NEVER released the results

    In the entire deflategate investigation only one person was proven to lie… Roger Goodell, fact.

    Wells talked to both equipment guys for 3 hrs yet left ALL of what was said by them out of his report

    The Steelers TWICE since this happened have been “caught “ with balls below the proper range. Nothing was done.

    Wells had the equipment guys phones the ONLY thing on them from Brady was a text telling them to make sure the refs have the rules for the proper psi levels.
    Why would he want to make sure the refs New the proper levels ?

    But the BEST argument against deflategate is Brady himself
    Look at his numbers since they started “closely monitoring the psi”

    He’s better.

  148. “That’s only half of the equation. There’s 31 other bases that you’ve compared us to. I spend quite a bit of time in the South Jersey area. Philly fans – equally as obnoxious. I spend quite a bit of time in Brooklyn – Jets/Giants fans – equally as obnoxious. I was ignored in a bar ther because I was wearing a Pats pullover not mention all the comments as I walked around. There’s no scale, no criteria for you to make such outlandish remarks.”

    I travel to Florida, Arizona, California, Philly and the Northeast regularly. I never said there was a scale, criteria or official ruling. I’ve seen all fanbases act like jerks – and I expect that given the circumstances at times. But again, by and large, I’ve been able to have good conversations, fun interactions, etc. with pretty much every fanbase on a consistent basis except for the Patriots. It doesn’t matter where they are, how many, any variable. More often than not it’s going to boil down to them talking about Brady/Beli being the GOAT or telling me how my team needs to be run. Again, if you don’t like it, change it or move on. You think my comments are outlandish, great you can think it all you want. It does not change the reality of the situation.

  149. What do you want to bet he doesn’t crush his cellphone after getting all these congratulatory messages?

  150. Only Brady haters even try to deny it anymore. So now Brady is a Brady hater? Oh I am so confused! (Remember Vinnie Barbarino)

    Being the goat is good. Saying you’re the goat not so much. And refusing to believe you are the goat and still have a ways to go is to be driven.

  151. I don’t understand some NFL fans. Brady threw 8 touchdowns to 0 interceptions in last season’s post-season and the Patriots lost the super bowl because his defense allowed 41 points. They had the 30th ranked pass defense in the league in the 2017 season. It’s quite comical how so many people turn the other cheek when Bill Belichick makes a boo boo. When the Patriots win the super bowl, and Brady doesn’t throw a five yard touchdown pass, and the game plan is more focused on running the ball, they harp on him for throwing 2 touchdowns to 3 interceptions in the post-season at the age of 41. He had a super bowl win stollen from him last season after Belichick chose to bench his best cornerback in the most important game of the season in all four quarters. If you guys watched the games this season, half of Brady’s picks were tipped passes from his own receivers, much like Hogan’s in Super Bowl LIII.

    If he won a few super bowls because of his defense, he also LOST a few because of his defense. When he walked off the field in Super Bowl XLII late in the 4th quarter, the score was 14-10 Patriots. How do you lose a super bowl throwing 3 touchdowns, 0 interceptions, passing for over 500 yards, and putting up a passer-rating of 115? Brady has played in 13 AFC championship games, 9 super bowl games, has won 6 championships so far, has thrown for over 500 touchdown passes, has won 30 playoff games, three AP MVP awards, four super bowl MVP awards, leads all other quarterbacks in playoff game-winning drives, 4th quarter comebacks, and super bowl game-winning drives. Yet, some people here don’t think he’s the greatest quarterback?

    It’s interesting that a few fans can only rely on useless hypothetical scenarios at this point that don’t tell us anything because it’s not the reality. Belichick did not win a single championship with Drew Bledsoe or Vinny Testaverde. They were 5-11 back in 2000. He also had a losing record in Cleveland. He saved the Browns in a sense, but his quarterbacks didn’t perform as great as Brady. After the Patriots’ 1-2 start in the 2001 season, Belichick was actually on the verge of losing his job in New England. So, Belichick is still the greatest, but so is Tom Brady. They’re two peas in a pod. It’s not one or the other. Brady won a national championship at Michigan without Belichick, and brought the Wolverines back from a 14 point deficit against the Alabama Crimson Tide to win the game in OT in the 2000 Orange Bowl. That sounds like modern-day Tom Brady to me.

  152. A lot of comments about Goodell. He was a mess handing the trophy to the Pats after the game and at the MVP session in the morning. Heck, Belichick looked like a GQ cover page next to Goodell.

  153. While he is the GOAT, the better way to describe him is as a winner. The guy is the ultimate competitor.

  154. February 5, 2019 at 2:25 pm
    nflhofcounts says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:04 pm
    Does anybody (save Pats fans) believe they suspended Brady and actually upheld the appeal when they knew for a fact he did nothing wrong

    Um.. for the record the guy (wells) after a 3 month investigation couldn’t say if Brady did anything wrong

    The NFL was asked directly in court “do you have any proof Brady or the Patriots did anything wrong “

    Answer from the NFL, “no we don’t “

    NFL does a PSI study during the season, NEVER released the results

    In the entire deflategate investigation only one person was proven to lie… Roger Goodell, fact.

    Wells talked to both equipment guys for 3 hrs yet left ALL of what was said by them out of his report

    The Steelers TWICE since this happened have been “caught “ with balls below the proper range. Nothing was done.

    Wells had the equipment guys phones the ONLY thing on them from Brady was a text telling them to make sure the refs have the rules for the proper psi levels.
    Why would he want to make sure the refs New the proper levels ?

    But the BEST argument against deflategate is Brady himself
    Look at his numbers since they started “closely monitoring the psi”

    He’s better.

    ————————-
    The final court case got to the crux of the matter. After the court had determined Brady didnt do anything wrong (ignore this fact if it doesnt work for you) the NFL the filed that the CBA said the commissioner had the power to suspend a player without needing a reason. The fact is the CBA really does say that so Brady would have been wasting his time trying to appeal. His lawyers must have had fun having to explain to him why his trump card, being innocent, no longer mattered.

    Next CBA barging session the NFLPA will need to negotiate those powers away from Goodell, which will mean giving up concessions, which benefits the league and owners. As disgusted as I might be with what Goodell managed to pull off there I have to grudgingly admit it was well played as far as fulfilling his job duties.

  155. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:36 pm

    Yet, some people here don’t think he’s the greatest quarterback?

    It’s interesting that a few fans can only rely on useless hypothetical scenarios

    ———————————

    Fact: In over half of Tom Brady’s Super Bowls his offense averages a pathetic 16.2 points per game.

    Fact: Tom Brady’s passer rating goes down in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s passer rating goes up in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s offenses average 35 points a game in his 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has 13 touchdowns in 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has never had a turnover in a Super Bowl game. Joe Montana has a perfect 4-0 record in Super Bowls.

    In the biggest game of all the Super Bowl. Who do you want as your quarterback? The answer is Joe Montana. The GOAT.

  156. In the biggest game of all the Super Bowl. Who do you want as your quarterback? The answer is Joe Montana. The GOAT.

    To quote Kirt Warner “ I’ll take the guy that’s been to 9”

    Like I said. Brady is now considered the GOAT by almost all current and former players and coaches
    But what would they know?

  157. Wait a minute – you mean to say there still people out there pretending to argue that Joe Montana is the GOAT? The same Joe who was benched in a divisional round blowout loss to a crappy Vikings team? The same Joe who had 3 one and dones in a row? The same Joe who only made it to 4 SBs in 14 years?

    In Brady’s 9th best season he made it to the SB. In Montana’s 9th best season he didn’t even make the playoffs.

    This debate ended in 2016, but like the guys who used to feebly argue for Peyton Manning, they too will eventually realize how ridiculous they sound.

  158. directdriver says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:12 pm
    In 2014, the team drafted an heir apparent to the 37 year old veteran QB so even their coaching staff don’t believe in his advancing years and longevity. And since then he went on to make it to 4 Super Bowls and win 3…

    Mic drop.
    ————————————

    Brady tried the mic drop, but Scott Zolak dropped it, so Brady is just going to have to stick around for another Super Bowl win, or two, or three.

  159. Goats don’t lose too a backup in Nick Foles, score 0tds and 13 points in the superbowl and rely on Russell Wilsons mistake help you win a sb. Cmon, people. Great system qb though.

  160. Brady won a national championship at Michigan as a backup to Brian Griese. Jimmy G. played a bigger role in Patriots SB win by starting in 2 games than Brady played in Michigan national championship win. Brady did have a signature win against Bama but his overall college stats are average at best.

  161. “put a REAL MAN’s team instead of a puny little weakling team out there to face the GOAT Tom Brady.”

    The GOAT Brady was 21 for 35 with 262 yards, 1 INT, 1 Fumble and 1 sack for a 71.4 passer rating. If a puny little weakling team did that to him, he’s lucky he didn’t face a real mans team.

  162. carloswlassiter says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:11 pm

    The same Joe who only made it to 4 SBs in 14 years?

    ————————-

    Yes Joe did win 4 Super Bowls in 14 years.

    Tom Brady only won 3 Super Bowls in 14 years. That’s 1 less ring in case you’re as bad at math as it appears.

  163. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:02 pm

    In the biggest game of all the Super Bowl. Who do you want as your quarterback? The answer is Joe Montana. The GOAT.

    Like I said. Brady is now considered the GOAT by almost all current and former players and coaches

    —————

    This is a massive fabrication. As we just saw last week on PFT in the morning when both Dan Marino and Tony Dungy did not have Brady as their GOAT.

    And again, why do you wanna ask a player today who never saw Montana’s full career? What’s the point in that?

    When you need your car fixed do you take it to the the car wash and ask the attendent to fix it?

  164. is this the same guy who needed an overturned interception vs the chiefs and the ball in OT first without the Chiefs even receiving the football because of the NFL’s broken overtime rules….. Just checking….. Without that there is no superbowl this year. Great qb, but no Goat Sorry.

  165. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:54 pm

    footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:36 pm

    Yet, some people here don’t think he’s the greatest quarterback?

    It’s interesting that a few fans can only rely on useless hypothetical scenarios

    ———————————

    Fact: In over half of Tom Brady’s Super Bowls his offense averages a pathetic 16.2 points per game.

    Fact: Tom Brady’s passer rating goes down in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s passer rating goes up in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s offenses average 35 points a game in his 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has 13 touchdowns in 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has never had a turnover in a Super Bowl game. Joe Montana has a perfect 4-0 record in Super Bowls.

    In the biggest game of all the Super Bowl. Who do you want as your quarterback? The answer is Joe Montana. The GOAT.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Fact: Joe Montana never passed for 469 yards or 505 yards in a single super bowl.

    Fact: Joe Montana never threw 6 touchdown passes in a playoff game.

    Fact: Joe Montana never won three AP MVP awards.

    Fact: Tom Brady never needed Ray Wersching to make four field goals in a single super bowl to win the game.

    Fact: Joe Montana never led the league in touchdown passes four times.

    Fact: Joe Montana never threw 5 touchdown passes in a single quarter.

    Fact: Joe Montana never won 18 consecutive games in a single season.

    Fact: Joe Montana never won 30 playoff games, 6 super bowl rings, or 4 super bowl MVP awards.

    Fact: Joe Montana won championships in the salary cap era of a 28 team league. The Baltimore Ravens, Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, and Carolina Panthers didn’t exist in his era.

    Fact: Tom Brady has never been benched in a playoff game. Look up the 1987 divisional round against the Minnesota Vikings.

  166. This is a massive fabrication. As we just saw last week on PFT in the morning when both Dan Marino and Tony Dungy did not have Brady as their GOAT.

    Sorry not a fabrication, it’s fact.
    For every Tony Dungy and Dan Marino you throw out I can give 4

    Steve young. Tom Brady is the GOAT
    Dion Sanders Tom Brady is the Goat
    Jimmy Johnson. Tom Brady is the goat
    Howie Long Tom Brady is the goat

    I can go on and on.

  167. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:32 pm

    Yes Joe did win 4 Super Bowls in 14 years.

    Tom Brady only won 3 Super Bowls in 14 years. That’s 1 less ring in case you’re as bad at math as it appears.
    —————————————————————————————
    That’s an odd way to parse the math. A more accurate comparison of their careers would include their entire careers (so far). Montana needed 14 years to win 4 SBs, Brady needed 17 years to win 6. And he isn’t done yet.

  168. sigbouncer says:

    February 5, 2019 at 2:54 pm

    “Fact: Tom Brady’s passer rating goes down in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.”

    __________________________________________________

    I don’t think you realize how many playoff games Brady has played in. He’s appeared in 40 games. You know how many Joe Montana played in? He played in only 23 games. That is almost half of Brady’s career. Montana has thrown 3 pick-sixes in his post-season career, while Tom Brady has only thrown one in 40 playoff games. That means Montana automatically gave the defense six free points against the Giants and Vikings in three different playoff games. Brady’s one pick-6 was in Super Bowl LI, but we all know how that one ended. If you want to continue on comparing playoff stats, Tom Brady has never had a passer-rating as terrible as 34.2. That was Montana’s awful performance in the 1986 playoffs against the Giants. Perhaps, the Niners had no competition playing against the AFC in the super bowl? They blew out the Broncos and Dolphins.

    Brady has had to overcome a lot more adversity in his super bowl games. Beating the Greatest Show on Turf and LOB defenses was no easy task. Defenses win championships, and the Dolphins and Broncos had no top ranked defenses. Bradshaw was also 4-0 in super bowls. With your logic, that should be all that matters. Being the better “super bowl quarterback” doesn’t make one the greatest. Eli Manning was better than Peyton Manning in the super bowl and yet, Peyton had the much better NFL career. I’d say winning 6 rings, 3 AP MVP awards, 30 playoff games, and 4 super bowl MVPs triumphs everything that Montana accomplished.

  169. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:54 pm
    footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 2:36 pm

    Yet, some people here don’t think he’s the greatest quarterback?

    It’s interesting that a few fans can only rely on useless hypothetical scenarios

    ———————————

    Fact: In over half of Tom Brady’s Super Bowls his offense averages a pathetic 16.2 points per game.

    Fact: Tom Brady’s passer rating goes down in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s passer rating goes up in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats.

    Fact: Joe Montana’s offenses average 35 points a game in his 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has 13 touchdowns in 4 Super Bowl games. Joe Montana has never had a turnover in a Super Bowl game. Joe Montana has a perfect 4-0 record in Super Bowls.

    In the biggest game of all the Super Bowl. Who do you want as your quarterback? The answer is Joe Montana. The GOAT.

    ——————————-
    Well if we are cherry picking….

    Fact: Joe Montana could not win enough in the regular season to get to the superbowl enough to match Brady’s numbers

    Fact: In career stats Brady is ahead of Montana in almost every category.

    Fact: Brady has more post season wins than Montana has Postseason games

    Fact: Joe Montana never got that fifth ring.

    Fact: Brady has his sixth

    Fact: Montana never even got to that fifth game where he could try for that fifth ring

    Fact: Brady just got to his 9th.

    Fact: Joe Montana is .266 for getting to the SB in years he played. Thats actually pretty good.

    Fact: Brady is .500. Thats insane.

    Fact: Brady is the goat.

    Fact: not even close.

  170. steelcurtainn says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:48 pm
    is this the same guy who needed an overturned interception vs the chiefs and the ball in OT first without the Chiefs even receiving the football because of the NFL’s broken overtime rules….. Just checking….. Without that there is no superbowl this year. Great qb, but no Goat Sorry.

    Sorry if that’s your argument then you need to get something else

    Christ you’re a Steelers fan. Does the immaculate reception mean anything to you??

    When a team goes on a SB run at some point their is always a play or some luck involved

  171. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:56 pm

    Fact: Joe Montana never passed for 469 yards or 505 yards in a single super bowl.

    (Montana never had the need to)

    Fact: Joe Montana never threw 6 touchdown passes in a playoff game.

    (Montana threw 5 touchdowns in a Super Bowl just 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter before moving to the run game with a 39-3 lead. Pretty safe to say he could have thrown at least 2-3 more if they wanted to run the score up.)

    Fact: Joe Montana never won three AP MVP awards.

    (Montana has 2 AP MVP Awards and 1 Bert Bell MVP Award – That = 3 MVPs)

    Fact: Tom Brady never needed Ray Wersching to make four field goals in a single super bowl to win the game.

    (Montana never needed a Butler last second interception, 4 turnovers by his D, 3 turnovers by his D and a touchdown scored or for his D to hold the opposing team to just 3 points in Super Bowls to win 4 Super Bowl games)

    Fact: Joe Montana never led the league in touchdown passes four times.

    (Montana led the league twice)

    Fact: Joe Montana never threw 5 touchdown passes in a single quarter.

    (Brady has never directed his team to a touchdown in the first quarter of any of his 9 Super Bowls)

    Fact: Joe Montana never won 18 consecutive games in a single season.

    (Montana won 18 consecutive games over 2 seasons 1989-90)

    Fact: Joe Montana won championships in the salary cap era of a 28 team league. The Baltimore Ravens, Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, and Carolina Panthers didn’t exist in his era.

    (Montana didn’t play in this era so irrelevant)

    Fact: Tom Brady has never been benched in a playoff game. Look up the 1987 divisional round against the Minnesota Viking

    (Montana showed that to be a poor coaching decision by destroying Minnesota the following 2 years in the playoffs 34-9 and 41-13 in route to back to back Super Bowl wins – Which is something Brady never accomplished. And Brady was benched for Garrafalo once too.)

  172. crush22 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 10:17 am

    Because he knows it’s tainted.
    ————————————-
    Tom Brady sice Deflategate game:
    Scored more points in second half.
    Won 3 Superbowls, appeared in 4
    5 Straight AFC Championship appearances.
    2 Superbowl MVP’s
    1 regular season MVP
    Set SB comeback record, then smashed that in subsequent SB.
    Set SB yardage record, then smashed that too
    Set TD to INT record
    Most reg. season wins
    Publicly Humiliated Rodger Goodell at least 4 times!

    I would like to personally thank John (sour grapes) Harbaugh, Ryan Grigson, and the entire Colts franchise for being so concerned to be sure Tom Brady’s football’s are now properly inflated and optimized so he can do his best. Tom was clearly being held back by those underinflated balls- thanks again for helping Tom to be his very best!

  173. It makes most knowlgeable fans cringe too. It completely disrespects players like Otto Graham, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Dan Marino, Aaron Rodgers, etc. Just because a great QB gets lucky by landing on a great team doesn’t suddenly make them any better than those who were on worse teams.

  174. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:31 pm
    “put a REAL MAN’s team instead of a puny little weakling team out there to face the GOAT Tom Brady.”

    The GOAT Brady was 21 for 35 with 262 yards, 1 INT, 1 Fumble and 1 sack for a 71.4 passer rating. If a puny little weakling team did that to him, he’s lucky he didn’t face a real mans team.
    ——-
    6 rings. Count em if you’d like 🙂

    And unlike the Steelers Brady won them all this century! WOW!

  175. And I’ll end it with this.

    At the beginning of the year the ultimate goal for every player and team is to win the SB.

    Tom Brady has won more than ANYONE,, FACT.

    TOM Brady has as many SB wins as the Steelers do in their franchise history.

    Not to mention he also Owns the Steelers ( thought I’d get that in)

  176. steelcurtainn says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:48 pm
    is this the same guy who needed an overturned interception vs the chiefs and the ball in OT first without the Chiefs even receiving the football because of the NFL’s broken overtime rules….. Just checking….. Without that there is no superbowl this year. Great qb, but no Goat Sorry.

    ——
    I can understand why Steeler fan talks about broken overtime rules. That’s how they lost to Tebow. That is kind of embarrassing. 🙂

  177. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 4:13 pm

    I don’t think you realize how many playoff games Brady has played in. He’s appeared in 40 games. You know how many Joe Montana played in? He played in only 23 games.

    Brady has had to overcome a lot more adversity in his super bowl games. Beating the Greatest Show on Turf and LOB defenses was no easy task. Defenses win championships, and the Dolphins and Broncos had no top ranked defenses.

    Being the better “super bowl quarterback” doesn’t make one the greatest

    —————————————–

    Some of your post has already been addressed previously here such as Montana getting knocked out of his 2 lowest qb rated playoff games in the first half.

    In Brady’s first 23 playoff games he still regresses from his regular season stats.

    The Broncos did in fact have the #1 rated defense when Montana put up 55 points on them. This has already been posted previously here as well.

    Montana is a better money quarterback. Clutch quarterback. Playoff and Super Bowl quarterback. Period.

  178. “The bottom line is you are interacting with others on a media platform in a social way that was never done 20 years ago.”

    The bottom line is that you tried to debate technicalities about social media versus actual media and got hammered. So then you take 3 paragraphs to try and dig your way out. You want to nitpick my post, go ahead. You’ll get it thrown right back in your face again.
    This is not social media.

  179. This G.O.A.T argument is silly beyond words. Do you realize how different the NFL is in the 21st century, as compared to the previous century (take the 70’s for example)? The game is completely different. The problem with these GOAT argument types is the fact that they are barely old to have sufficient talking points to speak across the generations.

    In chronicling Brady’s greatness, this is what you’d say: 1) he is AN all time great; 2) he is the greatest quarterback of the 21st century; and probably be for a long, long time; 3) he is the “winningest” QB of all time. But how can talk of GOAT when you never saw Starr & Unitas play, not to mention Otto Graham, for example? Are you considering the fact that the game is completely today? And besides, from a performing in the Super Bowl perspective, Montana performed at much higher than Brady; the numbers bear that out.

    Tom Brady on Joe Montana: “Well, I don’t ever see myself like him. He was so spectacular and I think he’s in a league of his own.”

    That’s what one all time great says about another …. Maybe we should pay attention? Having the most wins don’t automatically make you the best….

  180. sigbouncer says:

    Fact: Joe Montana never passed for 469 yards or 505 yards in a single super bowl.

    (Montana never had the need to)

    (Montana showed that to be a poor coaching decision by destroying Minnesota the following 2 years in the playoffs 34-9 and 41-13 in route to back to back Super Bowl wins – Which is something Brady never accomplished. And Brady was benched for Garrafalo once too.)

    _____________________________________________________

    You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Brady certainly did win back to back championships. Look up 2003 and 2004. And no, Montana never won 18 consecutive games in a single season. He happened to win a super bowl with an 18-1 record, but it’s not the same. Brady had an undefeated regular season. That is something Montana never accomplished. The Patriots between 2003 and 2004 set the record for most consecutive games won with like 23. Brady even set the record for most pass completions and consecutive pass completions in the super bowl. Furthermore, free agency and the salary cap wasn’t a thing when he played with those Niners.

    Montana definitely could have passed for more yards and thrown more touchdowns against the Bengals in Super Bowl XVI. If you’re going to apply that “no first quarter touchdowns in the super bowl for Brady” towards Brady, anyone can do the same for Montana. Look at how many takeaways Montana’s defense had in those super bowl games. They had like two interceptions against the Broncos and two interceptions against the Dolphins. This doesn’t include fumbles. The games were blowouts with both the Broncos and Dolphins. He had a top 3 defense in all four of his super bowl appearances. Joe Montana threw 3 pick-sixes in 23 playoff games, while Brady threw only one in 40 playoff games. Why wasn’t Montana good enough to take the Niners to a 5th super bowl?

  181. Christ you’re a Steelers fan. Does the immaculate reception mean anything to you??

    When a team goes on a SB run at some point their is always a play or some luck involved
    _______________________________________________________________________________________
    You bring up some valid points, there is lots of luck involved in winning a superbowl including the refs making bad calls. I will say though the Steelers didn’t win the superbowl during 1972 the immaculate reception year.

  182. irileydev says:
    February 5, 2019 at 4:47 pm

    The problem with these GOAT argument types is the fact that they are barely old to have sufficient talking points to speak across the generations.

    ———————————-

    That’s more of a problem with the Brady fanboys. Many will argue their point despite never having seen Montana’s career.

    If an old buck responded to me that Otto Graham was better than Montana. I would respectfully reply that I did not have the privilege to see Otto Graham’s career outside of a handful of highlights.

  183. Joe’s margin of dominance during a time when QBs/WRs were far less protected was 162-68 in 4 SB’s = 23+ point variance per game. Huge! To say he did it pre-free agency etc. is moot, as all teams were in the same boat….for that reason, he’s the GOAT of his ERA, by far.

  184. jman967 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:31 pm’

    “put a REAL MAN’s team instead of a puny little weakling team out there to face the GOAT Tom Brady.”

    The GOAT Brady was 21 for 35 with 262 yards, 1 INT, 1 Fumble and 1 sack for a 71.4 passer rating. If a puny little weakling team did that to him, he’s lucky he didn’t face a real mans team.

    __________________________________________________________

    Can you show me Joe Montana’s super bowl stats at the age of 41? Oh wait, he wasn’t playing. He was too busy getting injured like Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith. Why wasn’t Montana good enough to bring the Niners to a 5th super bowl? How come he never won a third AP MVP award? Why does Dan Marino have better stats than him in every single regular season game besides the super bowl and a handful of playoff games, if Montana is the greatest? Even Tom Brady edges Peyton Manning in TD-INT. ratio playing in the same era from the early 2000s to mid/late 2010s.

  185. The Real Goat Joe Montana: I dare you to put up Brady’s stats for 4 Superbowls…Plus, they changed the rules for Brady, not to hit a quarterback! See Montana hits on Youtube, I dare you…you cant even touch brady like that, thats y he’s lasted so long!!! Montana Goat 4ever!

    In case anyone needs reminding, here are Joe Montana’s statistics in his four Super Bowl starts for the 49ers in the 1980s:

    Attempts: 122
    Completions: 83
    Yards passing: 1,142
    Touchdowns: 11
    Interceptions: 0
    Passer rating: 127.8

  186. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 4:51 pm

    Look at how many takeaways Montana’s defense had in those super bowl games. They had like two interceptions against the Broncos and two interceptions against the Dolphins. This doesn’t include fumbles. The games were blowouts with both the Broncos and Dolphins.

    He had a top 3 defense in all four of his super bowl appearances

    —————————-

    Marino’s first interception didn’t come until over 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter when Montana already had the 49ers up 38-16. Marino’s second came on their next to last series with the ball. Elway’s first interception came with the score 33-3. Meanwhile the Pats had 3 defensive turnovers vs the Rams including a Ty Law score and Brady’s offense could only put up 13 points. Against the Eagles the Pats defense had 4 turnovers and Brady’s offense could only put up 24 points.

    Not true (“top 3 D”). Montana’s 3rd Super Bowl team was 8th in points allowed.

    And again cherry picking a bad pass/play or two by Montana in the playoffs doesn’t change the fact that Montana is proven to be a far more clutch performer in the playoffs and Super Bowls. So we’re done here.

  187. Montana failed to throw a TD pass in 3 straight one and done losses. Fact.
    Think that his apologists would accept that from Brady or any other QB today? 🙂

    I will not elevate Montana to GOAT because he beat up on inferior competition in the Super Bowl. I look at the bigger picture. If he really was GOAT then 3 straight miserable one and dones would not have happened. The end. 🙂

  188. nflhofcounts says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:09 pm

    Joe’s margin of dominance during a time when QBs/WRs were far less protected was 162-68 in 4 SB’s = 23+ point variance per game. Huge! To say he did it pre-free agency etc. is moot, as all teams were in the same boat….for that reason, he’s the GOAT of his ERA, by far.

    ———————————————

    I’d even argue that it’s more advantageous to play in today’s free agency/cap. Due to having another outlet to acquire star players in mass and being able to set up contracts to easily move on from older players. While also being able to get extra draft picks for players you want to release in the free agent pool. Many more options today to pick up quality and star players outside of basically using just the draft.

  189. Meanwhile the Pats had 3 defensive turnovers vs the Rams including a Ty Law score and Brady’s offense could only put up 13 points. Against the Eagles the Pats defense had 4 turnovers and Brady’s offense could only put up 24 points.

    ——
    That’s because the Rams had one of the best defenses in the league which didn’t get a lot of hype because of the GSOT… and that Eagles defense was stacked with talent.

    Funny how that works. Great defenses do well against great QBs. Average at best defenses like Montana faced in SBs- not so much. Go figure. 🙂

  190. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:26 pm

    Montana failed to throw a TD pass in 3 straight one and done losses. Fact.

    —————————

    Again not a fact. Montana didn’t even play the equivalent of 2 full games in those 3 playoff games.

    No matter how hard you cherry pick. You still can’t change what everyone already knows. That Joe Montana improves in both the playoffs and the Super Bowl. Having his best performances in the Super Bowl. Whil Tom Brady regresses in both the playoffs and Super Bowls.

  191. Tom Brady has less one and dones in his career (2) than Montana had in a row.

    Why should I put Montana above Brady as GOAT if he was shut down more often than not in his own conference? GOATs should consistently beat anyone. 🤔

  192. Love the excuses from Montana apologists. “But he played great defenses in his conference!”

    Yeah, so? We ARE talking about the greatest QB of all time aren’t we?

    🤔

  193. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:37 pm

    Meanwhile the Pats had 3 defensive turnovers vs the Rams including a Ty Law score and Brady’s offense could only put up 13 points. Against the Eagles the Pats defense had 4 turnovers and Brady’s offense could only put up 24 points.

    ——
    That’s because the Rams had one of the best defenses in the league which didn’t get a lot of hype because of the GSOT… and that Eagles defense was stacked with talent.

    Funny how that works. Great defenses do well against great QBs. Average at best defenses like Montana faced in SBs- not so much

    ———–

    Funny how that didn’t work on Montana.

    That Rams D was 7th ranked. That Eagles D was 2nd ranked.
    Montana faced the 7th ranked Dolphins D and put up 38. Montana faced the #1 ranked Denver D and put up 55.

  194. Ralph Espinosa says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:21 pm
    The Real Goat Joe Montana: I dare you to put up Brady’s stats for 4 Superbowls…Plus, they changed the rules for Brady, not to hit a quarterback! See Montana hits on Youtube, I dare you…you cant even touch brady like that, thats y he’s lasted so long!!! Montana Goat 4ever!

    In case anyone needs reminding, here are Joe Montana’s statistics in his four Super Bowl starts for the 49ers in the 1980s:

    Attempts: 122
    Completions: 83
    Yards passing: 1,142
    Touchdowns: 11
    Interceptions: 0
    Passer rating: 127.8

    First they didn’t change the rules for Brady. They were actually changed after the low hit on Carson Palmer. So try and get your facts straight

    And the hit in the BACK that the giants Lb put on Montana is still a LEGALLY hit today. Brady took the exact same hit from Greg Hardey a few years ago in Dallas , but he got up from it.

    And to the Montana is the GOAT few. IF he’s the goat why did he only win 4? Why didn’t he take his team to more?

    Again to quote Kurt Warner, “I’ll take the guy that’s been to 9”

  195. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:40 pm

    Why should I put Montana above Brady as GOAT if he was shut down more often than not in his own conference? GOATs should consistently beat anyone.

    ————————————

    You certainly use what you view as ‘competition played against’ very selectively here. Montana had to get by 3 Legendary teams during his run in the Giants, Bears and Redskins with 6 Super Bowls between them. Brady only played 1 Legendary team in his career in the Ravens who had 2 Super Bowl wins.

    Why would anyone call a guy the GOAT who could only muster up a pathetic average of 16 points scored offensively for over half his Super Bowl appearances? Talk about needing help to win…

    Why would anyone call a guy the GOAT who under performs in the biggest games (Playoffs) and on the biggest stage (Super Bowls)?

    When there is a true GOAT who is over performs in the biggest games and is perfection on the biggest stage (SB). 4-0 Record / 13 touchdowns / 0 turnovers / 35 points per game average.

  196. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:50 pm

    First they didn’t change the rules for Brady. They were actually changed after the low hit on Carson Palmer. So try and get your facts straight

    And to the Montana is the GOAT few. IF he’s the goat why did he only win 4?

    ——————–

    Fact is they did change the rule for Brady. In fact it’s searchable under ‘Brady Rule’.

    “Because of the season-ending left knee injury that Brady suffered in the Patriots’ 2008 season opener against the Chiefs, the league’s Competition Committee adopted a clarification of the current rule on hits to a quarterback in the knee area or below. The clarification specifically prohibits a defender on the ground who hasn’t been blocked or fouled directly into the quarterback from lunging or diving at the quarterback’s lower legs. Pollard was not flagged or fined for the hit. Under the revised rule, a play like his would be penalized, according to Titans coach Jeff Fisher and Falcons president Rich McKay, co-chairmen of the committe.”

    Charles Haley won 5 Super Bowls. Does that make Haley better than Lawrence Taylor?

    Trent Dilfer won 1 Super Bowl so I guess that makes Dilfer better than Dan Marino…

  197. When I look at Joe Montana’s super bowl stats, I see:

    XVI 14 22 63.6 157 1 0 100.0 W 26–21
    XIX 24 35 68.6 331 3 0 127.2 W 38–16
    XXIII 23 36 63.9 357 2 0 115.2 W 20–16
    XXIV 22 29 75.9 297 5 0 147.6 W 55–10

    Career 83 122 68.0 1,142 11 0 127.8

    When I look at these scores, I don’t see adversity. I see two blowouts in Super Bowls XIX and XXIV. Joe Montana’s performance in Super Bowl XVI rivals that of Brady’s performance in Super Bowl XXXVI. Yet, people want to harp on Brady for throwing 1 touchdown to 0 interceptions against the 2001 Rams. What the average Joe doesn’t see when they look at Brady’s super bowl stats is his competition. He took on the Greatest Show on Turf against Kurt Warner, the Atlanta Falcons and their highest scoring offense in NFL history, the ‘Legion of Boom’ Seattle Seahawks, Donavan McNabb’s Eagles, and other great teams. He wasn’t taking on AFC teams with mediocre defenses on the grandest stage.

    Additionally, Montana never passed for 469 yards or 505 yards in a super bowl. Brady holds the record for most passes completed in the super bowl and post-season as a whole. Up to Super Bowl LIII, Tom Brady’s name appeared in the super bowl record book 17 times. That is a lot more than Joe Montana. Not to mention, when did Montana set the record for best TD-INT. ratio in a single season? Here are just some of Brady’s records in the super bowl:

    Most passes completed in first half of a single Super Bowl: 20 (XLIX)
    Most passes completed in a single Super Bowl: 43 (LI)
    Most passes attempted in a single Super Bowl: 62 (LI)
    Most passing yards in a single Super Bowl: 505 (LII)
    Most Super Bowl appearances: 9
    Most passing attempts without an interception in a single Super Bowl: 48 (XLII & LII)
    Oldest QB to start a Super Bowl: 41 yrs 6 months 0 days
    Oldest QB to win a Super Bowl: 41 yrs 6 months 0 days
    Most consecutive completions in a single Super Bowl: 16 (XLVI)
    Most super bowl wins as a player: 6

  198. When there is a true GOAT who is over performs in the biggest games and is perfection on the biggest stage (SB). 4-0 Record / 13 touchdowns / 0 turnovers / 35 points per game average.

    Again your stats argument is LAME.

    If YOU could ask Montana what he played for he would tell you it’s to win Championships. I guarantee you he would sacrifice some stats to have won more SB.

    Tom Brady has won more SB than ANYONE and played in more than ANYONE.

    They no longer comparing him to Montana they are comparing him to Jordan and Ruth.

  199. Joe Montana played 15 seasons, and so his record of winning championships is 4-11, 4 times he did it, 11 times he did not.
    His record in making it to the championship is 4-11.
    His record in making to the semifinals (i.e., the conference championships) is 7-8.

    Tom Brady has played 17 seasons, and so his record of winning championships is 6-11.
    His record in making it to the championship is 9-8.
    His record in making to the semifinals (i.e., the conference championships) is 13-4.

    Clearly 6-3 (Brady) is better than 4-0 (Montana) in the Super Bowl.

    Why? Because losing earlier in the playoffs is not a sign of superiority. It is in fact the opposite.

    For example… A year ago, Brady lost SB 52 to Philadelphia. Are you really going to argue that, as an example, Kurt Cousins had a better season than Tom Brady, because “he did not lose a Super Bowl”???

    Of course not.

  200. I tend to differ, First superbowl-spygate, atlanta was up 28-3- luck and defense won that. Seattle one yard line – beast mode would have finishe patriots off! Luck has been a very goo friend of Tome Brady and the Patriots, plus their good cheaters, did i 4get to mention deflate gate…lmao!!! Montana is the GOAT!!!

  201. The Montana fans had a case when they were equal in titles but it gets to a point where the number of titles outweighs the zero losses in SB games.

    Brady is the most accomplished qb and will end his career in the top 2 of every major qb stat category. He’s basically Montana and Marino combined. Marino always had the numbers while Montana had the playoff success. That’s how Brady and Manning were compared for the first 5-6 years of their career but Brady has or will overtake Manning in all the major stats as well. However you measure greatness Brady is part of the conversation. Add it all up and you got G.O.A.T.

    Durability and longevity should not be considered a negative. QBs got hurt when Montana played and they still get hurt in today’s game. Brady is playing against the greatest athletes in the 100 year history of the NFL and he’s excelling at it longer than anyone has before.

  202. Carson Palmer Rule” which resulted requires that defenders take every opportunity to avoid hitting a quarterback at or below the knees when the quarterback is in a defenseless position looking to throw with both feet on the ground, unless they are blocked into him.

    The hit on Brady only forced them to “tighten up” on the rule.

    6 is more than 4

  203. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    Brady’s super bowl stats is his competition. He took on the Atlanta Falcons and their highest scoring offense in NFL history

    ————————–

    Top 6 highest scoring teams in NFL history

    1 2013 Broncos 37.9
    2 2007 Patriots 36.8
    3 2011 Packers 35.0
    4 2012 Patriots 34.8
    5 1998 Vikings 34.8
    6 2011 Saints 34.2

  204. Whats all this talk about Aaron Rodgers being the GOAT, or winning more SBs with Bill Belichick. Rodgers takes up all the cap he can get and tanked a season to get rid of McCarthy. Rodgers didnt even be bother to check on his family, when they were running from a fire.

    People really think that Rodgers could get along with BB as his coach?

  205. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    When I look at Joe Montana’s super bowl stats, I see:

    XVI 14 22 63.6 157 1 0 100.0 W 26–21
    XIX 24 35 68.6 331 3 0 127.2 W 38–16
    XXIII 23 36 63.9 357 2 0 115.2 W 20–16
    XXIV 22 29 75.9 297 5 0 147.6 W 55–10

    Career 83 122 68.0 1,142 11 0 127.8

    ————————————-

    Montana had 2 touchdowns in SB XVI.

    Montana had 4 touchdowns in SB XIX.

    That’s 13 total touchdowns for Montana in 4 Super Bowls.

  206. They no longer comparing him to Montana they are comparing him to Jordan and Ruth.
    ______________________________________________________________________________
    Of course, they aren’t comparing him to Montana, Montana never was a part of any scandoulous spygate and deflategate allegations. In many peoples eyes, brady is part of a cheating organization,if not, a cheater himself. Montana is not.

  207. As more and more of Brady’s teammates and coaches get into the Hall of Fame, the clearer it will become of how much better a supporting cast he had compared to his peers. It’s not even close.

  208. steelcurtainn says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Montana never was a part of any scandoulous spygate and deflategate allegations. In many peoples eyes, brady is part of a cheating organization,if not, a cheater himself. Montana is not.

    ———————————————–

    Nobody ever questioned Joe’s balls.

  209. steelcurtainn

    Remember you said they were going to lose to the chargers
    Then you said they would lose to the chiefs
    Then you said they would lose to the rams.

    Tom Brady has as many SB wins as your Steelers do in there franchise HISTORY

    Not to mention you OWNS the Steelers. And you thought it was the Rooney’s

  210. Montana had 2 touchdowns in SB XVI.

    Montana had 4 touchdowns in SB XIX.

    That’s 13 total touchdowns for Montana in 4 Super Bowls

    No he has 11 tds not 13

    1
    3
    2
    5

  211. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:29 pm

    footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    Brady’s super bowl stats is his competition. He took on the Atlanta Falcons and their highest scoring offense in NFL history

    ————————–

    Top 6 highest scoring teams in NFL history

    1 2013 Broncos 37.9
    2 2007 Patriots 36.8
    3 2011 Packers 35.0
    4 2012 Patriots 34.8
    5 1998 Vikings 34.8
    6 2011 Saints 34.2

    _________________________________________________

    You’re wrong, again. Read the article titled, “Atlanta Falcons 2016 offense ranked No. 5 all-time in NFL history.” Atlanta scored 152 points over four games (one of the highest scoring starts in NFL history and an Atlanta Falcons record) and they did it against top notch defenses. If you want to split hairs, that’s fine by me. But, that was the team the Patriots beat in Super Bowl LI. On the stat sheet, Montana didn’t throw two touchdown passes against the Bengals in Super Bowl XVI. So, that’s incorrect. You must be including rushing touchdowns. Brady has also had rushing touchdowns in his NFL career, but no one ever wants to talk about that. I remember him doing it against the Raiders in the 2001 divisional round and against the Ravens in the 2014 divisional round.

  212. I’ve been watching the NFL since 1976. For most of my adult life, Montana was clearly the GOAT. Joe definitively lost that title after Brady’s performance in Houston in SB 51. If the Brady goes to the SB again next year, he will have DOUBLED Montana’s playoff win total. Those who continue to carry the Montana torch ignore his failures, and do not fairly look at the entire body of work by both of these magnificent players. Brady’s total body of work has now far surpassed Montana’s. It’s over.

  213. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:29 pm

    And again cherry picking a bad pass/play or two by Montana in the playoffs doesn’t change the fact that Montana is proven to be a far more clutch performer in the playoffs and Super Bowls. So we’re done here.

    ___________________________________________________

    73 touchdowns to 33 interceptions beats 45 touchdowns to 21 interceptions. Brady’s playoffs completion percentage is also better than Montana’s. Oh, and he didn’t go one-and-done multiple times either. He also didn’t put up a passer-rating as bad as 34.2 like what Montana did against the 1986 Giants. How about a passer-rating of 42 the following season against the Vikings in the 1987 divisional round, the same game he was benched. When did Brady ever put up only 3 points in a playoff loss? When did he ever get blown out of a playoff game 3-49? How about have a completion percentage as low as 39 percent in a playoff game? As what I stated before, Tom Brady has never been benched in a playoff game. You can dance around those facts but the mic has been dropped.

  214. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:59 pm
    steelcurtainn says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Montana never was a part of any scandoulous spygate and deflategate allegations. In many peoples eyes, brady is part of a cheating organization,if not, a cheater himself. Montana is not.

    ———————————————–

    Nobody ever questioned Joe’s balls.
    ————
    But they question his greased up offensive lineman and his star receiver admitted stickum use so…….

    Joes a system QB anyway. Anyone would succeed with such an all time
    Great coach like Walsh. Look what happened when he left….ho hum, Steve Young just comes in and Zoink….another HOF career. Just plug em in right? No talent system Joe. Perhaps you and I would do just as well 🤔

  215. The same tiresome cherry picked foolishness from the Montana rump swabs, their argument is tiresome. At the end of the day the ring is the thing. They play to win championships. Not only has Brady put his teams in position to win more of them, they actually did win more of them. And all in an era designed to keep it from happening.

  216. hankster1019 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 7:16 pm

    Those who continue to carry the Montana torch ignore his failures, and do not fairly look at the entire body of work by both of these magnificent players.

    ——————————

    Let’s look at it realistically.

    Montana only had 8 seasons in San Francisco where he started 10 or more games. His first two years Montana started a total of 8 games. Then there is the strike year of 1982. In 1986 Montana had a severe back injury/back surgery and it was recommended by doctors that he retire. We could take this even a little further and point to Bill Walsh going a bit nutty in 1988 and putting Steve Young in 11 games. Creating a team divide. But for the sake of debate here. We will say Joe had 8 seasons in SF as a full time starter.

    So in 8 seasons as a full time starter in San Francisco Joe Montana won 4 Super Bowls.

  217. carloswlassiter says:
    February 5, 2019 at 7:16 pm

    How many people think the Steelers are going to win their 7th SB before NE?
    ______
    Hard to see it… It looks like Tomlin has lost the team, and Roethlisberger probably only has a couple of years left. Since Pittsburgh lost to GB in the SB in 2010, NE has been to 5 more SBs. And during that time, Pittsburgh has won as many playoff games (3) as NE has won SBs.

  218. I’ll start this off by saying I do hate the Patriots, simply because they kick my teams tail every single time.
    Belichek, I believe, has been more important to the Pats than Brady.
    Before the 2017 season I would’ve said Brady was the 3rd best QB ever behind Montana and Manning. I can’t put Manning over Brady anymore. The Pats owned the Colts but the Pats had FAR superior defenses than the Colts also. But Brady has convinced me that he is better than Manning with the last 2 seasons.
    Montana on the other hand, is still the greatest in my opinion. Montana had a superior supporting cast than Brady, but I believe that playing in this era has helped Brady quite a bit. When you look at the raw individual stats this era has blown up QBs #’s, and nobody can dispute that. Montana also had to deal with opposing defenses pretty much being able to do whatever they wanted as far as hits on the QB. Brady is tough and would’ve been great in Joe’s era, but I’m not sure he would’ve led a team to 5 titles and 9 Super Bowls then. The same could be said about Joe and this era.
    That’s why it’s hard to say anybody is the greatest. Different rules and different eras. The game now is completely different than it was in the 80s which is different than it was in the 60s and so on. I can only go off who I think would’ve done better in the other era and I think that’s Joe. Marino would’ve destroyed this era but he didn’t win any titles so he is out. It’s Brady and Joe and in my opinion it’s Joe then Tom.

  219. TB is a great QB. But comparing him to Montana or any other QB who played previously under different rules for their offense’s is short sided. Jack Lambert, Art Tatum defensive players would have annihilated his receivers and put them out of the game. Anyone whose seen football for 50 years knows what real football was. Today’s football is trumped up to give advantages to offense’s. Comparing offenses who did not have these advantages to todays offensive advantages is an apples and oranges comparison. And if TB is so great where is his statement QB game in the SB? 3 wins by 3 points relying on a kicker to win the game isn’t impressive. What it says about those wins is NE is a great TEAM, and the team puts its players in a position to win those games. Still, no SB win in 10 years for a goat QB speaks for itself. If TB was the goat he’d have 10 SB wins by now, imho.

  220. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 7:29 pm

    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:29 pm

    And again cherry picking a bad pass/play or two by Montana in the playoffs doesn’t change the fact that Montana is proven to be a far more clutch performer in the playoffs and Super Bowls. So we’re done here.

    ___________________________________________________

    He also didn’t put up a passer-rating as bad…

    ———————–

    Again, there is a reason that Brady’s passer rating and passer stats go down in playoff games and Super Bowls from his regular season stats (While Joe’s stats go up in both). Note these are full playoff games Brady played in and not 2 cherry picked games of a half or less that Montana played in as you like to use.

    Tom Brady Playoff Passer Rating Games:

    2007 – 57.6
    2008 – 66.4
    2009 – 49.1
    2011 – 57.5
    2012 – 62.3
    2016 – 56.4
    2017 – 68.6

    And this doesn’t even include the 8 more playoff games Brady has with passer ratings in the 70s including this years Super Bowl with a 71.

  221. Again, there is a reason that Brady’s passer rating and passer stats go down in playoff games and Super Bowls from his regular season stats (While Joe’s stats go up in both). Note these are full playoff games Brady played in and not 2 cherry picked games of a half or less that Montana played in as you like to use.

    Tom Brady Playoff Passer Rating Games:

    2007 – 57.6
    2008 – 66.4
    2009 – 49.1
    2011 – 57.5
    2012 – 62.3
    2016 – 56.4
    2017 – 68.6

    And this doesn’t even include the 8 more playoff games Brady has with passer ratings in the 70s including this years Super Bowl with a 71.

    Oh my god !!! Stop with the stats. If the stats are your argument then you have NOTHING

    you are like the colts fans that would point to Manning’s stats.

    WINNING is all that matters ..

    And Brady has won MORE than anyone.

    The goal is to win the SB. He’s more MORE than anyone
    NOBODY has 6.

    And don’t give me the Dilfer has more than Marino crap. No iOS saying that.

    But when you do something that no one else has done and you are the most important position on the field you have separated yourself

    Again I promise Montana would trade some of those stats for another SB win.

  222. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:32 pm
    carloswlassiter says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:11 pm

    The same Joe who only made it to 4 SBs in 14 years?

    ————————-

    Yes Joe did win 4 Super Bowls in 14 years.

    Tom Brady only won 3 Super Bowls in 14 years. That’s 1 less ring in case you’re as bad at math as it appears.
    —————————————————–
    Actually, you’re the one with the problem. 2001, 2003, 2004, 2014, 2016 & 2018 counting league years. Only way you can say 3 is to include Brady’s rookie year when he didn’t play and 2008 when he was on IR. Fine, be that way, but 6 wins in 19 years is better than 4 in 14. Do you need assistance with that math? Do you realize that Brady has played in half of the Super Bowls played since he became the starter in 2001?

  223. Trent Dilfer won 1 Super Bowl so I guess that makes Dilfer better than Dan Marino…

    —-
    You’re not really bringing an analogy of a guy with 1 ring into a discussion about a guy with 6 are you? 🙂

  224. Espi says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:27 pm
    I tend to differ, First superbowl-spygate, atlanta was up 28-3- luck and defense won that. Seattle one yard line – beast mode would have finishe patriots off! Luck has been a very goo friend of Tome Brady and the Patriots, plus their good cheaters, did i 4get to mention deflate gate…lmao!!! Montana is the GOAT!!!
    —-
    So many excuses. Hilarious!

  225. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 7:58 pm

    Tom Brady Playoff Passer Rating Games:

    2007 – 57.6
    2008 – 66.4
    2009 – 49.1
    2011 – 57.5
    2012 – 62.3
    2016 – 56.4
    2017 – 68.6

    And this doesn’t even include the 8 more playoff games Brady has with passer ratings in the 70s including this years Super Bowl with a 71.

    ______________________________________________

    Joe Montana also never played in the NFL at the ages of 39, 40, or 41. Nice strawman, though. Brady’s worst playoff games are still better than Montana’s worst games.

    1983: 1 TD-1 INT 74.8 passer-rating against the Lions
    1984: 1 TD-2 INTs 60 passer-rating against Chicago Bears
    1985: 0 TDs-1 INT 65.6 passer-rating
    1986: 0 TDs-2 INTs 34.2 passer-rating
    1987: 0 TDs-2 INTs 42 passer-rating in a 3-49 blowout
    1993: 0 TDs-1 INT 39.2 passer-rating

    Sorry, there’s not more games for Montana because he only played in 23 post-season games. That is child’s play next to Brady’s 40 playoff game appearances, with 9 of those games being super bowl games and 13 of them being conference championship games. Montana and Bradshaw never lost a super bowl because they didn’t play in enough games to lose any. Not to mention, as stated before, let’s not pretend and act like the AFC had powerhouse defensive teams representing that conference in the super bowl. Steve Young even won a championship with the Niners. Let me know when another Patriots’ quarterback steps up and does the same after Brady retires. And, I mean, play the entire regular season and win it all.

  226. switchwitch59 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm
    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:32 pm
    carloswlassiter says:
    February 5, 2019 at 3:11 pm

    The same Joe who only made it to 4 SBs in 14 years?

    ————————-

    Yes Joe did win 4 Super Bowls in 14 years.

    Tom Brady only won 3 Super Bowls in 14 years. That’s 1 less ring in case you’re as bad at math as it appears.
    —————————————————–

    Only way you can say 3 is to include Brady’s rookie year when he didn’t play and 2008 when he was on IR.

    ————————————–

    That’s what the poster did with Joe that I was responding to. Joe didn’t start full time til his 3rd year. So you want special treatment for Brady and have his rookie year eliminated, but not Joe’s first 2 years?

    Since you only wanna count years where each was the full time quarterback. Do you realize Montana has 4 Super Bowl wins in his 8 years in San Francisco as the full time starter?

  227. And to the Montana is the GOAT few. IF he’s the goat why did he only win 4? Why didn’t he take his team to more?

    ——
    Exactly.

    Because he isn’t.

    GOATs don’t flame out of the playoff 3 straight times with Tebow like passer ratings.

    #OverratedIMO

  228. skawh says:
    February 5, 2019 at 7:51 pm
    TB is a great QB. But comparing him to Montana or any other QB who played previously under different rules for their offense’s is short sided. Jack Lambert, Art Tatum defensive players would have annihilated his receivers and put them out of the game. Anyone whose seen football for 50 years knows what real football was. Today’s football is trumped up to give advantages to offense’s. Comparing offenses who did not have these advantages to todays offensive advantages is an apples and oranges comparison. And if TB is so great where is his statement QB game in the SB? 3 wins by 3 points relying on a kicker to win the game isn’t impressive. What it says about those wins is NE is a great TEAM, and the team puts its players in a position to win those games. Still, no SB win in 10 years for a goat QB speaks for itself. If TB was the goat he’d have 10 SB wins by now, imho
    ———-
    Being a Hawk fan I’d say your statement game was when Russell Wilson and the LOB completely dominated the high flying Broncos team in the SB right, what a game. Wasn’t even close, utter domination start to finish.

    Now back to Brady, who went to the SB the very next season against that same stout LOB Hawks team and……the rest is history. Can that be a statement game? Coming back from 28-3 vs ATL, is that not a statement game?

    Are we now faulting Brady that his defense let’s up points in a loss/win? He threw for 500+ yds last year. Did they lose because of his performance? So if the Pats defense held Eagles to 10 points and Brady led offense 500+ yds and 33 points then we have a statement game at 33-10 right? But instead his defense lets up 41 points. See how silly that sounds? What if the Broncos beat the 49ers 56-55 back the , would we be taking away from Joe Montana’s performance….of course not.

    Years from now it will sink in that TB is the greatest QB of all time and the stats are overwhelmingly in his favor.

  229. Funny how that didn’t work on Montana.

    That Rams D was 7th ranked. That Eagles D was 2nd ranked.
    Montana faced the 7th ranked Dolphins D and put up 38. Montana faced the #1 ranked Denver D and put up 55.

    —-
    Rams D and Eagles D would curb stomp anyone Montana played in the Super Bowl. Including those Broncos.

    That’s how inferior the AFC was. I refuse to acknowledge a guy as GOAT for putting up stats against weak competition in Super Bowls. Great QB and clutch QB of course. But greatest of all time in history of this game? Doesn’t work that way. 🙂

    #Overrated

  230. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:26 pm

    Trent Dilfer won 1 Super Bowl so I guess that makes Dilfer better than Dan Marino…

    —-
    You’re not really bringing an analogy of a guy with 1 ring into a discussion about a guy with 6 are you?

    ———————–

    No this is his analogy that is: More rings always = better.

    I also brought up Charles Haley with 5 rings and asked him if Haley is better than Lawrence Taylor who has 2 rings.

  231. Why do Montana apologists excuse his one and done flame outs against legendary defenses?

    1 I can understand. Not 3 in a row. Brady never did that.

  232. switchwitch59 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    Only way you can say 3 is to include Brady’s rookie year when he didn’t play and 2008 when he was on IR.

    ————————————–

    That’s what the poster did with Joe that I was responding to. Joe didn’t start full time til his 3rd year. So you want special treatment for Brady and have his rookie year eliminated, but not Joe’s first 2 years?

    Since you only wanna count years where each was the full time quarterback. Do you realize Montana has 4 Super Bowl wins in his 8 years in San Francisco as the full time starter?

  233. Peyton Manning was so much better against the same Belichick defenses than Montana ever was.

    Very odd for someone who people insist is GOAT. 🙂

  234. No this is his analogy that is: More rings always = better.

    —-
    Fair enough. But notice how guys like Dilfer, Rypien never seem to win more than one. And guys like Brady win 6. There’s a reason for that

  235. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Let me know when another Patriots’ quarterback steps up and does the same after Brady retires. And, I mean, play the entire regular season and win it all.

    —————————-

    Belichick (who is the REAL GOAT of the Patriots) already went 10-5 with Matt freaking Cassel as his starting quarterback. The same Cassel with a lifetime starting record of 26-40 without Belichick. So I don’t see this as much of a problem.

    BTW Cassel has a better record (10-5) in NE as a first year full time starter than Brady did (9-7).

  236. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:40 pm
    switchwitch59 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    Only way you can say 3 is to include Brady’s rookie year when he didn’t play and 2008 when he was on IR.

    ————————————–

    That’s what the poster did with Joe that I was responding to. Joe didn’t start full time til his 3rd year. So you want special treatment for Brady and have his rookie year eliminated, but not Joe’s first 2 years?

    Since you only wanna count years where each was the full time quarterback. Do you realize Montana has 4 Super Bowl wins in his 8 years in San Francisco as the full time starter?
    ———————————————————-
    1. I allowed for Joe not starting, you just ignored that.
    2. I guess, according to you, Joe was only a starter in SF, not in KC. Talk about special treatment.

  237. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    Peyton Manning was so much better against the same Belichick defenses than Montana ever was.

    ——————

    Yet Montana has a better passer rating vs Belichick than Brady does in the playoffs.

  238. Joes a system QB anyway. Anyone would succeed with such an all time
    Great coach like Walsh. Look what happened when he left….ho hum, Steve Young just comes in and Zoink….another HOF career. Just plug em in right? No talent system Joe. Perhaps you and I would do just as well
    ==========================
    Walsh was gone and George Seifert was the coach when Young got rolling.

  239. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 9:00 pm

    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:43 pm

    Peyton Manning was so much better against the same Belichick defenses than Montana ever was.

    ——————

    Yet Montana has a better passer rating vs Belichick than Brady does in the playoffs. And Peyton never had to play against Lawrence Taylor whom Belichick called the best defensive player he ever coached.

  240. Montana never won a conference championship game without a top 8 scoring defense.

    Never really carried his team honestly. Brady has.

  241. Yet Montana has a better passer rating vs Belichick than Brady does in the playoffs. And Peyton never had to play against Lawrence Taylor whom Belichick called the best defensive player he ever coached.

    ——
    Montana was 0-3 against the Giants in the playoffs with a very pedestrian passer rating of 69. Couldn’t even finish 2 of this games which tells me he’s not tough enough to be GOAT either.

    So…you sure about that? 🙂

    Manning was a lot better than that against the same Belichick coached defense that Montana was lousy against. 🤔

  242. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:46 pm
    footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Let me know when another Patriots’ quarterback steps up and does the same after Brady retires. And, I mean, play the entire regular season and win it all.

    —————————-

    Belichick (who is the REAL GOAT of the Patriots) already went 10-5 with Matt freaking Cassel as his starting quarterback. The same Cassel with a lifetime starting record of 26-40 without Belichick. So I don’t see this as much of a problem.

    BTW Cassel has a better record (10-5) in NE as a first year full time starter than Brady did (9-7).

    —-
    Sure, and Jacoby Brissett had a better record (4-12) as a first year full time starter than Peyton Manning did (3-13).

    Both are completely pointless comparisons but I think you knew that already 🙂

  243. sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:07 pm
    Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 5:50 pm

    First they didn’t change the rules for Brady. They were actually changed after the low hit on Carson Palmer. So try and get your facts straight

    ——————–

    Fact is they did change the rule for Brady. In fact it’s searchable under ‘Brady Rule’.

    Nope,

    2006: The “Carson Palmer rule”

    Some call the rule designed to protect quarterbacks’ knees the “Tom Brady rule,” but it was the “Carson Palmer rule” first.

    In the AFC Wild Card matchup between the Bengals and Steelers in January, the Steelers’ Kimo von Oelhoffen hit Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer on the second play from scrimmage in the knee on a long pass play, tearing Palmer’s ACL.

    During the offseason, the NFL’s competition committee proposed a rule change in the interest of quarterbacks’ safety.

  244. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:05 am

    Montana never won a conference championship game without a top 8 scoring defense.

    Never really carried his team honestly. Brady has.

    —————————————–

    I just figured something out. You’ve never seen Montana play.

    Montana 4 Super Bowl wins in 8 full seasons as the 49ers starter.
    Brady 4 Super Bowl wins in 14 full seasons as Patriots starter.

    Montana offenses avg 35 points per game in 4 Super Bowls.
    Brady offenses avg a pathetic 16 points per game in over half (5) of his Super Bowls.

    Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.

  245. Why is it no one ever mentions that there’s another QB who went to and won 4 SB’s? You’d think Steeler fans would be higher on Bradshaw then Montana. But they needed to go searching for a player closer to Brady. Not close enough but closer. Name droppers are lame.

  246. elichick (who is the REAL GOAT of the Patriots) already went 10-5 with Matt freaking Cassel as his starting quarterback. The same Cassel with a lifetime starting record of 26-40 without Belichick. So I don’t see this as much of a problem.

    Bill is the GOAT coach but they go together

    BB record WITHOUT Tom Brady 51-56 1-1 in the playoffs 0 Super Bowls
    BB record in NE WITHOUT Tom Brady 18-19. 0 playoff appearances
    BB record WITH Tom Brady 136 – 39. 40-10 in the playoffs 9 SB 6 SB WINS.

    6 is more than 4

  247. Guam will capsize! says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:40 am

    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:07 pm

    Fact is they did change the rule for Brady. In fact it’s searchable under ‘Brady Rule’.

    Nope,

    2006: The “Carson Palmer rule”

    ————————–

    The Palmer rule didn’t cover Pollard’s hit on Brady.

    “Pollard was not flagged or fined for the hit. Under the revised rule, a play like his would be penalized, according to Titans coach Jeff Fisher and Falcons president Rich McKay, co-chairmen of the committee.”

    The fifth provision of Rule 12, Section 2, Article 12 (roughing the passer) says that: “A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him.

  248. I just figured something out. You’ve never seen Montana play.

    Montana 4 Super Bowl wins in 8 full seasons as the 49ers starter.
    Brady 4 Super Bowl wins in 14 full seasons as Patriots starter.

    Montana offenses avg 35 points per game in 4 Super Bowls.
    Brady offenses avg a pathetic 16 points per game in over half (5) of his Super Bowls.

    Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.

    —-
    Yes I have. Wouldn’t say a word about him if I didn’t.

    How would Montana do if he had a subpar defense? Not too well apparently. Not GOAT. Brady is.

  249. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:10 am

    Yet Montana has a better passer rating vs Belichick than Brady does in the playoffs. And Peyton never had to play against Lawrence Taylor whom Belichick called the best defensive player he ever coached.

    ——
    Montana was 0-3 against the Giants in the playoffs with a very pedestrian passer rating of 69. Couldn’t even finish 2 of this games which tells me he’s not tough enough to be GOAT either.

    So…you sure about that? 🙂

    Manning was a lot better than that against the same Belichick coached defense that Montana was lousy against

    ———————

    Montana was 2-3 vs the Giants in the playoffs. And even that is a misleading stat. As when Joe left the last game (when his 49ers were going for a SB 3-Peat) late in the 4th quarter (with a 103 passer rating) the 49ers were ahead by 1. Then Steve Young came in and Roger Craig fumbled the game away.

    And really how dare you question Montana’s toughness. When Montana came back from two career ending injuries where doctors said he would never play again. Try showing some class with respects to a man who put his well being on the line not once but twice for his love of the game

    Montana has close to a 100 passer rating vs Belichick overall. Try again.

  250. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 6, 2019 at 9:17 am

    I just figured something out. You’ve never seen Montana play.

    Montana 4 Super Bowl wins in 8 full seasons as the 49ers starter.
    Brady 4 Super Bowl wins in 14 full seasons as Patriots starter.

    Montana offenses avg 35 points per game in 4 Super Bowls.
    Brady offenses avg a pathetic 16 points per game in over half (5) of his Super Bowls.

    Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.

    —-
    Yes I have. Wouldn’t say a word about him if I didn’t.

    How would Montana do if he had a subpar defense? Not too well apparently.

    —————–

    Not buying that you ever saw Montana play based on your comments.

    Montana took KC to the AFC Championship with the 14th ranked defense. And you’re also ignoring the effect a top ranked explosive offense (49ers) has on defensive statistics when the defense only has to play pass. Makes it much easier for the D when they only have to play one aspect of an offense.

  251. GoodellMustGo says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:10 am

    Montana was 0-3 against the Giants in the playoffs with a very pedestrian passer rating of 69. Couldn’t even finish 2 of this games which tells me he’s not tough enough to be GOAT either.

    ————–

    Montana came back from two career ending injuries where doctors said he would never play again. Try showing some class with respects to a man who put his health on the line not once but twice for his love of the game.

    And Montana was 2-3 vs the Giants in the playoffs. Even that is a misleading stat. As when Joe left the last game (when his 49ers were going for a SB 3-Peat) late in the 4th quarter (with a 103 passer rating) the 49ers were ahead by 1. Then Steve Young came in and Roger Craig fumbled the game away.

    Now we’re done here since you feel the need to disrespect an NFL legend in Montana and the health risks the man took in coming back to play the game. Despite the recommendations by the most qualified physicians in the world telling him not to.

  252. Now we’re done here since you feel the need to disrespect an NFL legend in Montana and the health risks the man took in coming back to play the game. Despite the recommendations by the most qualified physicians in the world telling him not to.

    I have more respect for this game than to have discussions with someone who has no respect for it or the players who play it.

  253. Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    This is where you lose all credibility. Being 6-3 in SBs is not mediocre. Its incredible. There’s a reason the next closest QB has 2 fewer wins than Brady since its extremely difficult to get to, let alone win, SBs…..especially in the modern era of free agency. Mediocre is Peyton Manning at 2-2. Using your logic, it would have been better for the Pats to lose in the AFCC game (or earlier) those years they lost the SB than to have made it. That’s ludicrous.

  254. blessedunliketherest says:
    February 6, 2019 at 9:48 am

    Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Being 6-3 in SBs is not mediocre. Its incredible.

    ————————————–

    That winning percentage won’t even get a team into the NFL playoffs in some years.

  255. footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:08 pm

    On the stat sheet, Montana didn’t throw two touchdown passes against the Bengals in Super Bowl XVI. So, that’s incorrect. You must be including rushing touchdowns

    ————————————–

    There is a reason why I posted “Montana 13 total touchdowns in 4 Super Bowl games”. Last time I checked they count rushing touchdowns on the scoreboard.

  256. Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    WINNING is all that matters ..

    And Brady has won MORE than anyone.

    The goal is to win the SB. He’s more MORE than anyone
    NOBODY has 6.

    ———————————-

    Charles Haley has 5 rings more than any defensive player. Does that make him better than Lawrence Taylor who has 2 rings? If so you better tell Belichick how wrong he is to say Lawrence Taylor is the best to ever play the game.

  257. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:57 am
    Guam will capsize! says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:40 am

    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:07 pm

    Fact is they did change the rule for Brady. In fact it’s searchable under ‘Brady Rule’.

    Nope,

    2006: The “Carson Palmer rule”

    ————————–

    The Palmer rule didn’t cover Pollard’s hit on Brady.

    Not sure what you mean but here’s another historical document for you to refuse to acknowledge.

    Carson Palmer was a rising star in the NFL during the 2005 NFL season and just secured a first-round bye for the Cincinatti Bengals. During the divisional playoff series against the Pittsburgh Steelers, Palmer threw a touchdown pass to Chad Johnson on the first possession.

    Unfortunately, Steelers defensive tackle Kimo Von Oelhoffen tackled Palmer below the knee after he threw it and fractured his ACL and MCL, ending his season and the Bengals playoff hopes.

    In addition, Tampa Bay quarterback Brian Griese endured an injury that season in a similar fashion.

    Therefore, the NFL decided to implement a rule after the season that prevented defensive players from hitting the quarterback at or below the knee.

    In fact, the rules became even more stringent after the 2008 NFL season when Tom Brady suffered a season-ending ACL and MCL injury because of a similar incident.

    So no, they didn’t “change” the rule for Brady. They saw that QB’s were still getting damaged since clever defenders took any contact with an offensive player as an opportunity to take a shot at knees. The fact that there was no flag on Pollard should surprise no one. Brady routinely gets hit as much as any other QB yet his RTP flag count is far lower. Searchable stat as you say.

  258. That winning percentage won’t even get a team into the NFL playoffs in some years.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    No matter what way you slice it winning six will always be better than winning four. Playing in nine is always better than playing in four. Six gold medals and three silver medals is better than four gold medals. In no universe it is better to get knocked out without reaching the SB than it is to lose in the SB. You lose in the SB you still did better than 30 other teams. You lose earlier, that number drops. I mean its pretty elementary.

    Brady has the rings, is top 5 is almost every QB statistic there is, and has the longevity.

  259. 0 2 Rate This
    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 10:17 am
    Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    WINNING is all that matters ..

    And Brady has won MORE than anyone.

    The goal is to win the SB. He’s more MORE than anyone
    NOBODY has 6.

    ———————————-

    Charles Haley has 5 rings more than any defensive player. Does that make him better than Lawrence Taylor who has 2 rings? If so you better tell Belichick how wrong he is to say Lawrence Taylor is the best to ever play the game.

    That’s a STUPID argument

    The QB is the most important position on the field
    It’s not just the rings it’s all the records
    Brady has WON more than ANY QB
    He is with out a doubt the most successful QB in the SB era
    Holds almost every post season and SB record
    Including the most important one. WINS

    again I promise if you could ask Montana if he could WIN one more but his QB rating (the most overrated stat there is) would only be 50 he would take the WIN.

    When these PLAYERS and COACHES call Brady the GOAT it’s because of all he’s accomplished regular season and post season.

    Only one player has won 6 SB and his name isn’t Joe Montana

  260. 10:07 am

    That winning percentage won’t even get a team into the NFL playoffs in some years.
    ————————————-

    And yet that.666 is within spitting distance of Montana’s .695 playoff win %.
    From 1980 when Joe stopped carrying a clipboard to 1994 when he retired the AFC won a single Super Bowl, the 1980 Raiders. Montana faced inferior competition in the Super Bowl, the NFCCG was the real Super Bowl in the ’80’s and by that farmore realistic yardstick Joe’s results just don’t quite measure up to what Brady has accomplished. I always accepted Joe Cool as the GOAT, that changed based on what has happened in the past few seasons.

  261. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:10 am

    From 1980 when Joe stopped carrying a clipboard to 1994 when he retired the AFC won a single Super Bowl, the 1980 Raiders. Montana faced inferior competition in the Super Bowl

    ————————————————————-

    The 1984 Raiders also won a Super Bowl.

    Montana faced two reigning NFL MVP’s and two Hall of Fame quarterbacks in his 4 Super Bowls. Montana also faced a #1 ranked defense and put up 55 points on them. Throwing 5 touchdowns and leading 39-3 just 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl. And Brady never put up 55 points on a #1 ranked defense.

  262. Flash1287 says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:03 am

    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 10:17 am

    Flash1287 says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    WINNING is all that matters ..

    And Brady has won MORE than anyone.

    The goal is to win the SB. He’s more MORE than anyone
    NOBODY has 6.

    ———————————-

    Charles Haley has 5 rings more than any defensive player. Does that make him better than Lawrence Taylor who has 2 rings? If so you better tell Belichick how wrong he is to say Lawrence Taylor is the best to ever play the game.

    That’s a STUPID argument

    ——-

    Yet it’s the exact same argument you are using for Brady.
    While you completely ignore the fact that in over half of Brady’s Super Bowls his offense has averaged a pathetic 16 points a game.

    2002 vs Rams – 13 points (despite 3 Rams turnovers)
    2005 vs Eagles – 24 points (despite 4 Eagles turnovers)
    2008 vs Giants – 14 points vs Giants 17th ranked defense
    2012 vs Giants – 17 points vs Giants 25th ranked defense
    2018 vs Rams – 13 points vs the Rams 20th ranked defense

  263. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    The 1984 Raiders also won a Super Bowl.

    Montana faced two reigning NFL MVP’s and two Hall of Fame quarterbacks in his 4 Super Bowls. Montana also faced a #1 ranked defense and put up 55 points on them. Throwing 5 touchdowns and leading 39-3 just 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl. And Brady never put up 55 points on a #1 ranked defense.
    ——————————————————–

    My mistake going off memory for the ’80’s. The core point remains, and once again you conveniently ignore it. In choosing to look only at Super Bowls you invalidate your argument. The discussion is the Greatest Of All Time but you simply choose to ignore overall playoff performance and lock in on the 4 game sample size that suits you. Every playoff game is an elimination game. Again, if a .666 win percentage drew your derision how am I to accept that you are giddy over a QB whose playoff win percentage is only .029 higher? If you are presenting the cans of corn that represented AFC teams in the 80’s as formidable I suspect you may be the one that wasn’t watching. The AFC was incredibly weak overall throughout the decade and NFL fans as a whole knew it and accepted the NFCCG as the defacto Super Bowl. If you lived through it presenting it as anything less is disingenuous.

  264. TruthfulDolphinsFanNotWearingBlinders says:

    February 5, 2019 at 10:29 am

    Greatest system QB, not even a close 2nd

    ================

    Belichick is 18-19 as Pats coach without Brady starting. 33 of those 37 games were started by a QB who’s gone to at least one Pro Bowl. Some system.

    And Brady STILL being on the roster is further evidence that the Pats magical QB “system” couldn’t be run by just any average QB. Belichick always gets rid of talent when it gets expensive (Milloy, Law, Vinatieri, Branch, Vrabel, Mankins, Revis, Samuel etc.) …except for one glaring exception. Some system.

  265. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.
    ——————————————-

    Kurt Warner says hello.

    ——————–

    My bad on Warner.

    Still that makes just 1 in 9 games for Brady.
    While Montana played against 1 in all 4 of his Super Bowls.

  266. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.

    ===================

    Kurt Warner (HOF, MVP) and Marshall Faulk (HOF, MVP) say hello. Also Matt Ryan (MVP).

    And Brady led Pats beat this years MVP…. TWICE!

  267. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 10:07 am

    blessedunliketherest says:
    February 6, 2019 at 9:48 am

    Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Being 6-3 in SBs is not mediocre. Its incredible.

    ————————————–

    That winning percentage won’t even get a team into the NFL playoffs in some years.

    ============================

    How many times has Brady led the Pats to a 4th qtr/OT lead in a Super Bowl???

    give up?

    ALL NINE TIMES

  268. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:04 pm

    The core point remains, and once again you conveniently ignore it. In choosing to look only at Super Bowls you invalidate your argument. The discussion is the Greatest Of All Time but you simply choose to ignore overall playoff performance and lock in on the 4 game sample size that suits you.

    ——————————–

    Actually if you read thru my posts you will see where multiple times I have pointed out the fact that Brady under performs in both the playoffs and Super Bowl from his regular season stats. While Montana exceeds his regular season stats in both the playoffs and in Super Bowls.

    And understand that ones performance in the Super Bowl is the biggest stage of all. Brady is simply overrated as a clutch quarterback and is nowhere near Joe’s performance level in either the playoffs or Super Bowls.

    The other area Joe trumps Brady substantially is winning percentage. Joe is perfection at 4-0 in Super Bowls. Joe won his 4 Super Bowls in his first 8 years (or 12th year overall) as a full time starter in the league. While it took Brady 14 years to win 4 Super Bowls. Joe has 10 total years in the NFL where he started 10 or more games in a regular season and 4 Super Bowls in those 10 years.

    Then there is the fact that Joe has won Super Bowls with two different coaches. And Joe went to the AFC Championship game with a third different coach. Brady has won nothing without Belichick (the TRUE GOAT of the Pats).

  269. sigbouncer says:

    February 5, 2019 at 8:46 pm

    footballseasonrules says:
    February 5, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Let me know when another Patriots’ quarterback steps up and does the same after Brady retires. And, I mean, play the entire regular season and win it all.

    —————————-

    Belichick (who is the REAL GOAT of the Patriots) already went 10-5 with Matt freaking Cassel as his starting quarterback. The same Cassel with a lifetime starting record of 26-40 without Belichick. So I don’t see this as much of a problem.

    BTW Cassel has a better record (10-5) in NE as a first year full time starter than Brady did (9-7).

    ==========================================

    2008 Pats with Cassel’s 11-5 was a nice showing, but that is a FIVE GAME drop off. Its like dropping from 12-4 to 7-9. Its a big drop.

    Also Cassel/Pats had one of the easiest strength of schedules in 2008 (28th hardest schedule). That was a significant drop from the 2007 team (8th hardest schedule).

  270. Belichick (who is the REAL GOAT of the Patriots) already went 10-5 with Matt freaking Cassel as his starting quarterback. The same Cassel with a lifetime starting record of 26-40 without Belichick. So I don’t see this as much of a problem.
    ———
    Cassel was a pro bowler away from the Patriots. Just sayin’.

  271. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 12:28 pm

    Brady is simply overrated as a clutch quarterback…

    ===================================

    Brady is literally the NFL’s all time leader in playoff 4th quarter comebacks. He has 9, Montana is second with 5. He won a Super Bowl down by 25 points in the 3rd quarter. He has led the Pats to a 4th qtr/OT lead in ALL NINE SBs he’s been in.

    He is not “overrated as a clutch quarterback”

  272. 2008 Pats with Cassel’s 11-5 was a nice showing, but that is a FIVE GAME drop off. Its like dropping from 12-4 to 7-9. Its a big drop.
    Also Cassel/Pats had one of the easiest strength of schedules in 2008 (28th hardest schedule). That was a significant drop from the 2007 team (8th hardest schedule).

    —-
    2007 – 6-0 against playoff teams that year. 16-0 regular season.
    2008 – 1-4 against the AFC playoff field and blown out 3 times. And they missed the playoffs.

    The team was significantly worse without Brady. Period.

    With that said, without Belichick they’d be 2-14 that year.

  273. My bad on Warner.

    Still that makes just 1 in 9 games for Brady.
    While Montana played against 1 in all 4 of his Super Bowls.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Matt Ryan was the NFL MVP the year the Pats played the Falcons. Plus, like it or not, Eli Manning is probably a future hall of famer. Not to mention the following future hall of famers/MVPs who Brady has faced in AFCGC: P. Manning, Big Ben, Rivers, Mahomes

  274. Brady has won nothing without Belichick
    —–
    Don’t be disingenuous. Brady hasn’t played one NFL snap without Belichick is the correct statement.

  275. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.
    ———————————-

    In addition to defeating Warner in XXXVI he also defeated the previous year’s MVP in Faulk as well as Matt Ryan in LI.
    The fallacy of going only by Super Bowls and ignoring playoffs overall is further compounded by Brady’s elimination of not one but two reigning MVP’s enroute to his victory in XXXVII. How many times did Montana beat 2 reigning MVP’s in the same playoffs?
    Brady also beat the reigning MVP to get to and win XXXVIII and LIII.
    As far as HoF QB playoff opponents faced that’s a preposterous argument, we have no idea how many of them will end up in the HoF since the bulk of them aren’t even eligible yet.

  276. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:27 pm

    How many times has Brady led the Pats to a 4th qtr/OT lead in a Super Bowl???
    give up?
    ALL NINE TIMES
    ——————————–

    How many Super Bowls has Brady thrown an interception in?
    In 6 of his 9 Super Bowls Brady has thrown at least one pick.

    How many Super Bowls has Brady fumbled in?
    In 4 of his 9 Super Bowls Brady has had a fumble.

    How many times has Brady’s coach/defense bailed him out of Super Bowls to get the win?
    4 times.
    Once vs the Rams (Held Rams to 13 points with 3 turnovers and one pick six)
    Once vs the Eagles (Held Eagles to 21 points with 4 turnovers)
    Once vs the Seahawks (Had Butler jump Wilson’s route at the goal line to seal win)
    Once vs the Rams (Held Rams to 3 points)
    That’s 4 of Brady’s 6 Super Bowl wins that were won by either his coach or the defense or a combination of both.

    How many times has Brady thrown an interception for a returned touchdown in a Super Bowl?
    Once vs Atlanta.

    How many times has Brady turned the ball over with the game on the line in a Super Bowl?
    Once vs the Eagles costing his team the Super Bowl.

  277. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 12:28 pm

    While it took Brady 14 years to win 4 Super Bowls. Joe has 10 total years in the NFL where he started 10 or more games in a regular season and 4 Super Bowls in those 10 years.

    ================

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Brady and Belichick are CONSTANTLY breaking in new players. Their most talented receiver this year wasn’t on the roster opening day and was off the team by the end of the year. Yet they still evolved and adapted and won. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

  278. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:28 pm
    Brady is simply overrated as a clutch quarterback…


    Montana is overrated, period.

  279. Brady is simply overrated as a clutch quarterback and is nowhere near Joe’s performance level in either the playoffs or Super Bowls.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    That’s true, unless we aren’t using facts. If you include ALL playoff games played for the two (40 for TB and 23 for JM), Brady has a higher winning %, a higher completion %, a higher TD:INT ratio. JM has a higher QB rating. Now, all these metrics are very close for both and the leader is only leading by a small amount, so its quite disingenuous to say Joe’s performance level is better than Brady for the playoffs.

    Oh, and TB has the same number of SB MVPs that Joe has SB wins.

  280. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:28 pm

    The other area Joe trumps Brady substantially is winning percentage.
    ———————————————-

    .750 > .695
    Stats are for losers, the scoreboard is for winners. Any argument that doesn’t include playoff wins/losses is cherry picking and you know it. The only numbers that matter in the Brady/Montana GOAT conversation and that’s playoff wins, every playoff game is an elimination game. You can pick and choose all you like but when it comes time to show up and put up or go home your boy isn’t in the conversation with Brady. It’s also amusing to see you massage the seasons that you choose to include. Among the greatest of abilities is availability, Brady wins that one too.

    BTW the reason Montana won playoff games with another team was a hot younger QB took his job and he was traded. Brady kept his job, it was the hot younger QB was the one traded.

  281. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:59 pm

    BTW the reason Montana won playoff games with another team was a hot younger QB took his job and he was traded.

    ——————————————

    In Bizarro world maybe.

    In the real world Joe Montana was locked in as the 49ers starting quarterback (despite missing the previous year to the injury that retired Terry Bradshaw). And it was Joe who requested the trade to Kansas City despite pleas and guarantees from owner Eddie Debartolo and team president Carmen Policy to stay in SF as their starting quarterback.

  282. At this point, why does anyone even bother responding to trolls like sigbouncer. He’s just another one of those keyboard warriors who can’t acknowledge the greatness in front of him.

    In the vein of Max Kellerman and Rob Parker. Rather than admit they’re wrong, they’ll get off on using selective data to back up their own meaningless points.

    Best to be ignored.

  283. Brady has 10 wins (1/3 of his playoff wins) in the playoffs with a quarterback rating in the 70’s or below. Including 4 wins with a qb rating in 50’s-60’s.
    This tells you Brady’s team still wins despite his poor performances.

    71.4 77.1 68.6 78.4 57.5 66.4 57.6 76.1 73.3 70.4

    While Montana has just 2 wins with qb ratings in the 70’s or below.
    This tells you as Joe goes so do the 49ers.

    74.3 60.0

  284. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 6:03 pm

    In 8 of Tom Brady’s 30 playoff wins Brady has more turnovers than he does touchdowns.
    —————-

    Your numbers are wrong. Not gonna fact check all your claims but the first one I do it is wrong.

    And the number you should be focused on is 30…..30 playoff wins. He is going to end his career with more than double the wins of any other qb.

  285. tb12gronk87 says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:02 pm

    Your numbers are wrong.

    —————

    2019 – vs Rams 0-1 / vs Chiefs 1-2
    2014 vs Ind (fumble)
    2013 vs Balt 1-2
    2012 vs Balt 0-2
    2008 vs San Diego 2-3
    2002 vs Oak 0-1

    Off by 1. I miscounted 2017 Houston where Brady had a 47% completion, a 68.6 qb rating and 2 tds 2 ints. Nothing for Brady to be proud of in that game. 3 interceptions and 3 sacks by Pats defense including a Logan Ryan pick returned to the Houston 6 yard line where Dion Lewis chewed up the 6 yards (5+1) for a td.

  286. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 12:17 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.
    ——————————————-

    Kurt Warner says hello.

    ——————–

    My bad on Warner.

    Still that makes just 1 in 9 games for Brady.
    While Montana played against 1 in all 4 of his Super Bowls.
    ——————-

    Not sure when Boomer Esiason and Ken Anderson became Hall Of Famers so once again your facts are incorrect.

    Brady has only played one Hall Of Famer so far in the SB cause the majority of his opponents are still playing. Good chance guys like Eli, Wilson, and Ryan end up in the HOF.

  287. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 6:03 pm
    In 8 of Tom Brady’s 30 playoff wins Brady has more turnovers than he does touchdowns.

    =======

    Fun how you have yet to address how much easier it was to maintain prolonged winning in the 80s (less teams, no salary cap, no modern free agency, lack of modern drug testing)…and yet, Pats, Brady and BB won a ton more than the 49ers. It’s not close. Thus massively more impressive careers. Facts.

  288. sigbouncer says:

    February 6, 2019 at 9:07 pm

    tb12gronk87 says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:02 pm

    Your numbers are wrong.

    —————

    2019 – vs Rams 0-1 / vs Chiefs 1-2
    2014 vs Ind (fumble)
    2013 vs Balt 1-2
    2012 vs Balt 0-2
    2008 vs San Diego 2-3
    2002 vs Oak 0-1

    Off by 1. I miscounted 2017 Houston where Brady had a 47% completion, a 68.6 qb rating and 2 tds 2 ints. Nothing for Brady to be proud of in that game. 3 interceptions and 3 sacks by Pats defense including a Logan Ryan pick returned to the Houston 6 yard line where Dion Lewis chewed up the 6 yards (5+1) for a td.
    —————-

    So we aren’t counting rushing touchdowns for Brady but you have been for Montana’s SB totals? He had a rushing td against raiders and while he fumbled he never lost the fumble so that isn’t a turnover. Same thing against the Colts, he fumbled but never lost it which means no turnover.

    And does it really make that much of a difference that Brady threw the Pats all the way to the 5 yard line against the Chiefs in overtime and passed them all the way to the 2 yard line on the game winning score against the Rams then the running back took it in? It’s still 6 points and it’s still an offense led by Brady. A win is a win.

    When that’s what you’re nitpicking about you are really digging to support your argument cause the traditional stats are not in your favour. Why don’t you do some digging about the way Montana lost in the playoffs. Brady has never been blown out in the playoffs. Brady has taken a bad defense to the SB. Brady has almost as many 4th quarter/ot game winning drives as Montana has wins. You should focus on those.

  289. Joe Montana record by playoff round:

    WC: 1-2
    DIV: 7-2
    CONF: 4-3
    SB: 4-0
    Win %: .695

    Tom Brady record by playoff round:

    WC: 2-1
    DIV: 13-2
    CONF: 9-4
    SB: 6-3
    Win %: .750

  290. tb12gronk87 says:
    February 6, 2019 at 9:27 pm

    Not sure when Boomer Esiason and Ken Anderson became Hall Of Famers so once again your facts are incorrect.

    ————————

    Read it again and you will see where I wrote MVP ‘or’ HOF.
    Anderson and Esiason were the MVPs that SB year and Marino and Elway are the HOFers.
    So Montana faced either a league MVP or HOF quarterback in all 4 of his Super Bowls.

    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.

  291. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 5:33 am

    Joe Montana record by playoff round:

    WC: 1-2
    DIV: 7-2
    CONF: 4-3
    SB: 4-0
    Win %: .695

    Tom Brady record by playoff round:

    WC: 2-1
    DIV: 13-2
    CONF: 9-4
    SB: 6-3
    Win %: .750

    —————–

    All this says is Brady played on the better teams with better coaching.
    It’s already been shown that Brady won 1/3 of his playoff games with a very poor passer rating in the 50’s-70’s.

  292. Montana v Brady SB comparisons:

    83 1142 10 0
    89 909 4 1 <- Brady's 4 worst games

    83 1142 10 0
    140 1653 12 3 <- Brady's 4 best games

    Sprinkle in a few of Brady's mediocre SB performances and you close the gap with Montana.
    You can spin it anyway you want, Brady deserves to be mentioned in the GOAT conversation. And it's not even a debate.

    1-3 vs 0 Ints isn't consequential. If you want to insist on driving that home you deserve all the criticism that comes along with trying to do so.

  293. And it’s hilarious we’re entertaining the notion that Brady played on better teams than the 49ers. I’m fine with suggesting the league today might be more watered down but in no way has Brady had better teams than the 49ers. Give me a break already.

  294. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.
    ======================
    The same can’t be said about AFCCGs.

  295. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 6:03 pm
    In 8 of Tom Brady’s 30 playoff wins Brady has more turnovers than he does touchdowns.
    ======================
    Which means in 22 of his 30 playoff wins Brady has more touchdowns than he does turnovers. 🙂

  296. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 5:27 pm
    Brady has 10 wins (1/3 of his playoff wins) in the playoffs with a quarterback rating in the 70’s or below. Including 4 wins with a qb rating in 50’s-60’s.
    This tells you Brady’s team still wins despite his poor performances.

    71.4 77.1 68.6 78.4 57.5 66.4 57.6 76.1 73.3 70.4

    While Montana has just 2 wins with qb ratings in the 70’s or below.
    This tells you as Joe goes so do the 49ers.

    74.3 60.0
    =======================
    Or it could just mean Montana was a much more accurate passer in the playoffs.

  297. fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 8:09 am

    And it’s hilarious we’re entertaining the notion that Brady played on better teams than the 49ers. I’m fine with suggesting the league today might be more watered down but in no way has Brady had better teams than the 49ers. Give me a break already.

    —————————-

    That’s a pretty bold comment considering the Patriots had the only team in NFL history to go undefeated in 18 games in a single season. Besides the slight on outstanding Pats players such as McGinest (HOF), Law (HOF), Moss (HOF), Gronkowski, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Bruschi, Welker, Edelman and on and on. And then there is the coaching (Belichick) factor that I combined with the Pats teams in my comment.

  298. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 9:10 am

    fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 8:09 am

    And it’s hilarious we’re entertaining the notion that Brady played on better teams than the 49ers. I’m fine with suggesting the league today might be more watered down but in no way has Brady had better teams than the 49ers. Give me a break already.

    —————————-

    That’s a pretty bold comment considering the Patriots had the only team in NFL history to go undefeated in 18 games in a single season. Besides the slight on outstanding Pats players such as McGinest (HOF), Law (HOF), Moss (HOF), Gronkowski, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Bruschi, Welker, Edelman and on and on. And then there is the coaching (Belichick) factor that I combined with the Pats teams in my comment.

    Left out Seau (HOF), Revis, Harrison, Vrabel, Hernandez, Watson, Samuel, Dillon, Mankins, Gilmore, McCourty, Mason, Talib, Vinatieri, Gostkowski…

  299. fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 7:22 am

    You can spin it anyway you want, Brady deserves to be mentioned in the GOAT conversation.

    —————————————-

    In the conversation, yes. I don’t recall anyone here saying he doesn’t belong in the discussion (except for maybe a few posters who d/q’d him based on his suspension or team spygate). There is more than a handful of quarterbacks who belong in the discussion of the greatest quarterback of all time for my money.

  300. McGinest is not in the Hall of Fame. And Moss and Seau weren’t with the Pats that long and didn’t win a title. And Seau was more of a veteran leader at that point in his career, not the All Pro from years past.

    There’s been lots of Patriots team Hall of Famers (either inducted or will be inducted) of course. But the only offensive player Brady had for an extended period of time that will be a Hall of Famer is Gronk. Even then , Brady didn’t have Gronk during the greatest comeback in SB history, nor during the first 3 SBs or the 2007 season. Montana played with the greatest WR of all time along with 3 other Pro Football Hall of Famers (Fred Dean, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley).

    And with no salary cap, free agency, modern drug testing and fewer teams, the 80’s 49ers played in a much easier era to maintain prolonged dominance. No question about it.

  301. Gronk (4 Super Bowls) has been with Brady longer than Rice (2 Super Bowls) was with Montana. Lott is the only player you listed to play in all 4 Super Bowls. Haley and Dean played in 2 each with Joe. So double standard on your end.

    My comments on the advantages of today’s free agency, compensatory picks – ability to trade them etc have already been discussed here.

  302. Where the two played is also a factor in playoff stats. How many games has Brady played in Foxboro in the winter time. Unless we are now going to argue weather has no impact on performance playing in cold snowy games will impact your numbers.

  303. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 9:10 am

    That’s a pretty bold comment considering the Patriots had the only team in NFL history to go undefeated in 18 games in a single season. Besides the slight on outstanding Pats players such as McGinest (HOF), Law (HOF), Moss (HOF), Gronkowski, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Bruschi, Welker, Edelman and on and on. And then there is the coaching (Belichick) factor that I combined with the Pats teams in my comment.
    —————————————————–

    Willie McGinest is not in the HoF, Brady and Moss had all of 2 playoff trips together.
    You tell someone they are slighting Pats players but dismiss the stacked Niners teams and HoF coach Montana had. Walsh was to offense what Belichick is to defense. You like to trot out HoF & MVP criteria when you think it supports your argument, ie who Montana played against, but ignore it when people factually point out it really doesn’t. Only three of the nine teams Brady faced in the SB were led by players that are now HoF eligible, and one of them has been elected. Warner & Ryan were reigning MVP’s the year Brady defeated them and overall Brady has either ended a reigning MVP’s season or couldn’t because he was the MVP an incredible 10 times. Save us all the ridiculous exercise of listing the players Brady and Montana have played with. It’s just another red herring. Montana’s Niners were infinitely more talented than Brady’s teams due to cap restrictions. If Kraft had leave to write the checks Eddie D did this conversation would be more of a joke than it is.

    Of course none of that really matters. In the end it’s playoff wins and rings that count. None of your cherry picking and mental gymnastics changes Brady’s superior playoff record that has (so far) resulted in six rings or that supplied with the GOAT WR your boy managed 3 straight one n dones. Chip away, lie and distort as you will but at the end of the day 9 > 4 and so is 6.

  304. My last comment on this.

    The points made backed statistically that Brady regresses in the playoffs.
    While Montana thrives in them with few exceptions.

    That Brady’s team wins in the playoffs despite Brady’s average to poor games at a 33% rate.
    While the 49ers shown to be far more reliant on Montana having good-great games to get them playoff/Super Bowl wins.

    Montana is far superior on the biggest stage in the biggest game of them all the Super Bowl.
    13 total touchdowns 0 interceptions. 35 points per game average in 4 Super Bowls.

    Montana has faced tougher playoff competition overall in facing 3 legendary teams (Giants, Bears, Redskins) with 6 Super Bowls between them.

    Montana faced 2 reigning MVPs and 2 HOF quarterbacks in his Super Bowls. Along with putting up 55 points (5 td passes just 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter) on the #1 ranked defense in the NFL.

    The last thing I will say is those of you here who cannot even identify the fact that Rice only played in 2 Super Bowls with Montana have obviously not seen Montana’s career.

    To those who haven’t seen Montana’s career it’s okay to be honest and say Brady is your GOAT but that you haven’t seen Montana’s career.

    To all the other posters, good debates no matter who your GOAT is.

  305. sigbouncer says:

    February 7, 2019 at 10:38 am

    sigbouncer says:

    My comments on the advantages of today’s free agency, compensatory picks – ability to trade them etc have already been discussed here.

    Gronk (4 Super Bowls) has been with Brady longer than Rice (2 Super Bowls) was with Montana. Lott is the only player you listed to play in all 4 Super Bowls. Haley and Dean played in 2 each with Joe. So double standard on your end.

    My comments on the advantages of today’s free agency, compensatory picks – ability to trade them etc have already been discussed here.

    =========================

    Gronk has only played in 3 Super Bowls, aka 33% of them. 49ers NFL HOFers played in at least 50% as you stated. Double standard argument dismissed.

    And your free agency argument doesn’t make sense. And it doesn’t address the fact that drafting a good player and not worrying about how much of the cap you need to give up to keep him later on is a HUGE advantage over today’s GMs. If you’re a good drafting team in the pre salary cap, pre free agency era, you are set. After those came into effect, it got A LOT HARDER. Which is why very few teams stay on top for very long.

    Its harder to find good players, fit them under the cap, and teach them your offense/defense than it is to just draft them, coach them and sit back.

    And fewer teams, man, fewer teams.

  306. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 7, 2019 at 11:23 am
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 10:38 am

    My comments on the advantages of today’s free agency, compensatory picks – ability to trade them etc have already been discussed here.
    ———————————————————

    Referencing your own erroneous takes are a poor basis for declaring victory. I’ve had the good fortune to have watched the greats going back to Starr and the evolution of the NFL that has happened during all of their careers. No amount of stat finagling replaces very simple math
    9 > 4
    6 > 4

  307. revelation123 says:
    It makes most knowlgeable fans cringe too. It completely disrespects players like Otto Graham, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Dan Marino, Aaron Rodgers, etc. Just because a great QB gets lucky by landing on a great team doesn’t suddenly make them any better than those who were on worse teams.
    —-
    Your list is horrible. Manning, Brees Rodgers, Marino?… thats your list of QBs vying to be the Greatest of All Time?

  308. The points made backed statistically that Brady regresses in the playoffs.
    While Montana thrives in them with few exceptions.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    And statistically, I showed that in all playoff games they have played Brady and Montana have similar stats (Brady leads in completion %, TD:INT %, and winning %; Montana leads in QB rating). So essentially Montana has to elevate his play in the playoffs just to match Brady’s supposed “regression”.

  309. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 7, 2019 at 11:23 am

    No amount of stat finagling replaces very simple math
    9 > 4
    6 > 4

    ———————-

    Then go argue with Belichick about how much better Charles Haley is than Lawrence Taylor.

    5 > 2

    _________________________________________________________________

    blessedunliketherest says:
    February 7, 2019 at 12:45 pm

    So essentially Montana has to elevate his play in the playoffs just to match Brady’s supposed “regression”.

    ———————–

    Anyone can look up Brady’s regular season stats and see Brady’s QB rating goes down close to 10 points in the playoffs.
    You fabricating that it doesn’t (“supposed regression”) by moving the goal post only shows your Brady bias.

    All quarterback stats are up today due to today’s rules. Records are broken left and right today. Just look at perennial backup Ryan Fitzpatrick this year.

    Good afternoon gentlemen

  310. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 9:10 am

    That’s a pretty bold comment considering the Patriots had the only team in NFL history to go undefeated in 18 games in a single season. Besides the slight on outstanding Pats players such as McGinest (HOF), Law (HOF), Moss (HOF), Gronkowski, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Bruschi, Welker, Edelman and on and on. And then there is the coaching (Belichick) factor that I combined with the Pats teams in my comment.
    ——-
    It’s not only bold but also correct. You seriously want to compare HOFers between the 2 teams? Really? The 49ers rented HOfers at the end of their dynasty. Heck the 49ers rented HOFers towards the end of their dynasty. Are we forgetting about them by any chance? BTW, TBrown, WWelker, JEdelman and RMoss is awesome but it still kind of pales to 15 years of JRice. Just sayin’.

    You might literally be the ONLY non-Pats fan that feels the majority of those teams were filled with HOFers. Heck you might even beat a bunch of Pats fans on that.

  311. sigbouncer says:
    All quarterback stats are up today due to today’s rules. Records are broken left and right today. Just look at perennial backup Ryan Fitzpatrick this year.

    The Rules are soft today…. but Brady has been going to various Superbowls over the last 18 years.

  312. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 11:37 am
    My last comment on this.

    The points made backed statistically that Brady regresses in the playoffs.
    While Montana thrives in them with few exceptions.

    That Brady’s team wins in the playoffs despite Brady’s average to poor games at a 33% rate.
    While the 49ers shown to be far more reliant on Montana having good-great games to get them playoff/Super Bowl wins.
    ============================
    Based on QBR ?!?!?!??!?!

    How about Montana benefiting from top 10 defense all 4 years he won his SBs. Three of which were top 5 !!!!!!! His offense was also top 5 in 3 of those 4 as well (one being top 15).

    In Brady’s NINE SB years his defenses were ranked in the top 20 exactly THREE times. Twice in the top 5 and once in the top 15. The remaining years were top 25 and top 30. I just don’t see the building of an argument here (sorry). It just reeks of cherry picking to defend a position. I’m honestly having a difficult time believing you actually believe it. And that’s coming from a Pats fan who actually agrees with the premise that Montana performed better in the SBs. That said it’s still only a subset of the information where the superset appears to be largely ignored. On what appears to be to serve a flawed argument. Just doesn’t make sense.

  313. sigbouncer says:

    February 7, 2019 at 1:32 pm

    All quarterback stats are up today due to today’s rules. Records are broken left and right today.
    =================

    You do realize Brady played quite a few seasons (and won 3 SBs) prior to the current rules that heavily favor offense and protect QBs, right? And he has the most (by far) 4th qtr playoff comebacks of all time? And that in the last 4 SBs, Brady has averaged 390 yd/gm 65% completion pct?

    Matt Flynn is tied for the most TDs and passing yards in a game for the Packers. Does that mean he’s equal to Rodgers? Would you trust Matt Flynn in a final drive of a playoff game? The ultimate goal is winning and the best QBs can make adjustments and overcome bad quarters/halfs be it their fault or not, and still come out on top.

  314. I guess when you cut through all the stats and all the cherry picking, the bottom line is they pretty much performed evenly in playoff games. But Brady has 6 rings and Montana only has 4. You don’t get points for not making it to the SB. When overall playoff performance is pretty even, look at the wins. 6 will always be more than 4. 4 SB MVPs will always be more than 3. Unless Joe decides to lace them up for a few more years, he will unfortunately have to take second place in this debate.

  315. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:26 pm

    You do realize Brady played quite a few seasons (and won 3 SBs) prior to the current rules that heavily favor offense and protect QBs, right?

    —————————

    This is not correct. The major rules changes and enforcements of previous rules occurred in 1994.

    At the annual owners meeting in March 1994, the NFL’s competition committee passed a bundle of new rules. The committee, chaired by legendary Miami Dolphins coach Don Shula and New York Giants general manager George Young, endeavored to make life easier for offensive players, to discourage the kicking game, and to guide the league into a new technological realm. The changes they pushed through included a renewed emphasis on prohibiting “downfield chucking,” to ensure that defensive backs could not jam receivers more than five yards down the field; giving offensive lineman the option of lining up with one foot behind the line of scrimmage; adding two point conversions; emphasizing the roughing the passer rule, to deter defenders from hitting the quarterback after he released the ball; changing the spot of the ball after missed field goals from the line of scrimmage to the point of the kick; and adding radio transmitters to quarterbacks’ helmets so coaches could talk directly to their field generals.

    The NFL had never before approved such a comprehensive package of rules with an eye toward achieving one particular goal. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, Tagliabue said the new rules would “have a significant effect in boosting [offensive] production.” Taken as a whole, they painted a clear picture of how Tagliabue and his cohorts wanted the game to evolve. They wanted more offense, specifically more passing, and so they prohibited certain kinds of physical contact on receivers and quarterbacks, thus curtailing defensive players’ ability to disrupt offensive timing. They gave offensive lineman more flexibility to counteract the talents of outside pass rushers such as Bruce Smith and Derrick Thomas, who were wreaking havoc with their unfathomable combinations of size and speed. The implementation of radio transmitters allowed coaches to communicate with quarterbacks in real time. And the addition of the two-point conversion, as well as the field position penalty after missed field goals, made the league’s preference for touchdowns rather than field goals quite clear.

  316. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 7, 2019 at 3:31 pm

    Good afternoon. How are things at the cherry orchard? Still picking?

    ————————————

    Pointing out that over 1/3 of Brady’s playoff wins occurred with Brady sporting a very weak 50’s to 70’s passer rating is not cherry picking. Neither is pointing out that 20-25% of Brady’s playoff wins occurred with Brady having more turnovers than touchdowns. The same goes for Brady offenses scoring a pathetic 16 points per game average in over half of his Super Bowls.

    Sometimes the truth hurts and you simply have to accept it.

  317. sigbouncer says:

    February 8, 2019 at 6:34 am

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:26 pm

    You do realize Brady played quite a few seasons (and won 3 SBs) prior to the current rules that heavily favor offense and protect QBs, right?

    —————————

    This is not correct. The major rules changes and enforcements of previous rules occurred in 1994.

    =============================================

    So I guess the better/stricter drug testing, player concussion protocols, helmet to helmet hit penalties, stricter WR jamming limits, stricter late hit/defenseless player penalties, kickoff changes, the Palmer and Brady QB protection rules etc. had zero effect on today’s game. Except that 6 of the top 10 highest scoring seasons per team per game have been in the last 7 years. Prior to ’07, no one had thrown for 50TDs, since then there have been 3. Those sound like major changes to me and the stats back it up.

  318. Pointing out that over 1/3 of Brady’s playoff wins occurred with Brady sporting a very weak 50’s to 70’s passer rating is not cherry picking.

    =================

    It is actually. And that percentage drops precipitously when you consider all of the first round “wins” he earned by getting the bye. And he’s often had lesser receiver talent to work with than the best of his QB peers of the same era. Truly great players still find a way to win even when things aren’t going according to plan. Brady finds a way better than anyone in history.

  319. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 11:37 am
    My last comment on this.

    sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 6:40 am

    Sometimes the truth hurts and you simply have to accept it.
    —————————————————–

    Surrounded by the best team money could buy Joe couldn’t get it done in the playoffs at anywhere near the clip Brady has. If Brady led his team to 3 straight one n dones you’d be howling it from the roof tops. If he were benched during a playoff game that would be front and center in the salty argument. Understanding you have trouble with the truth, note the 1st of the comments quoted above, here are the simplest of irrefutable truths for you to accept.
    9 > 4
    6 > 4
    .750 > .695

    “Stats are for losers, the scoreboard is for winners”

  320. Patriot’s defense was elite in those early years and was mostly responsible for the first 3 Super Bowl wins.

    ————————

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:26 pm

    You do realize Brady played quite a few seasons (and won 3 SBs) prior to the current rules that heavily favor offense and protect QBs, right?

  321. fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 1:40 pm

    You seriously want to compare HOFers between the 2 teams?

    —————

    Did I write that? No, I didn’t. I wrote “outstanding players”.
    Why on earth would anyone want to compare HOF players when Montana’s teams have had over 25 years since their last SB win with him? While many of Brady’s teammates are still playing or just recently became eligible and would need 25 years from Brady’s last SB to do a honest/fair comparison.

  322. I think comparisons across eras are incredibly difficult. How are we defining GOAT? Most wins? Most talent? Wins is awfully hard to attribute solely to a quarterback. Brady is easily the most accomplished qb in history based on the combination of winning percentage, total wins, playoff wins and raw stats. Do I think he was the most talented to ever play the position? No. Montana played in a totally different era. It would be incredible to see Marino, Montana, Elway and Fouts play with the offensive rules we have today. I think the numbers would be ridiculous. Please don’t respond if you’ve have only seen you tube videos of those players or look up stats online. You have no idea what they played like because the game was incredibly different in the 80s.

  323. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 9:52 am

    Joe couldn’t get it done in the playoffs at anywhere near the clip Brady has.

    ————————————-

    Joe won his first 4 Super Bowls 12 years in (It only took Joe 8 years as the full time starter to win his first 4).
    It took Brady 14 years to win his first 4 Super Bowls.

  324. fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:00 pm

    In Brady’s NINE SB years his defenses were ranked in the top 20 exactly THREE times. Twice in the top 5 and once in the top 15.

    ——————————————————-

    In 8 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 10 ranked defense.
    In 6 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 6 ranked defense.
    Brady Super Bowl defenses have twice ranked #1 overall.

  325. fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:00 pm

    And that’s coming from a Pats fan who actually agrees with the premise that Montana performed better in the SBs.

    ———————————

    Do you actually believe there is anyone out there who will dispute that Montana didn’t perform better in SBs?

    In his four Super Bowls, Montana completed 83 of 122 passes for 1,142 yards and 11 touchdowns with no interceptions, earning him a passer rating of 127.8. Montana added 2 more rushing touchdowns giving him a total of 13 touchdowns and 0 interceptions/turnovers in 4 Super Bowls. Montana led his team to victory in each game, and was the first player ever to win three Super Bowl MVP awards.

  326. Pats overall defensive prowess is WILDLY overstated. Points against avg gives an incomplete picture of how good a defense actually is as it doesn’t take into account strength of opponent. Defense DVOA does take that into account and is a much better indicator. Shutting down Buffalo to 7 points but giving up 30 to the Texans doesn’t mean your a “top ten” defense. Truly good defenses stop good teams. 2017 Pats were “top ten” in scoring average but were truly awful against good teams last year, case in point, the Eagles SB.

    Pats defense DVOA in SB appearance years:
    2018 – 16th
    2017 – 31st
    2016 – 16th
    2014 – 12th
    2011 – 30th
    2007 – 11th
    2004 – 7th
    2003 – 2nd
    2001 – 13th

    Some good defenses, some really bad ones, a lot in between. Nothing special. Pats defense of this era were hardly the early ’00 Ravens or Buccaneers.

  327. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 9:52 am

    Surrounded by the best team money could buy

    ———————————

    The best team money could buy? Really? Here are the top 15 team salaries from 1989.

    49ers $26,815,500

    Jets $22,458,350

    Raiders $21,507,000

    Redskins $21,463,000

    Browns $20,845,750

    Giants $20,523,000

    Bills $20,459,500

    Vikings $20,285,000

    Packers $19,885,500

    Bears $19,965,000

    Eagles $19,862,026

    Patriots $19,459,500

    Colts $19,210,250

    Oilers $19,125,000

    Dolphins $19,032,500

  328. sigbouncer says:

    February 8, 2019 at 11:30 am

    fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 2:00 pm

    In Brady’s NINE SB years his defenses were ranked in the top 20 exactly THREE times. Twice in the top 5 and once in the top 15.

    ——————————————————-

    In 8 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 10 ranked defense.
    In 6 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 6 ranked defense.
    Brady Super Bowl defenses have twice ranked #1 overall.

    ==================================

    The Pats playoff defense points allowed average for last 4 SB playoff runs is 21.7/gm. That’s only slightly better than average for this year. It would rank 11th overall points allowed avg this year.

  329. sigbouncer says:

    February 8, 2019 at 12:10 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 9:52 am

    Surrounded by the best team money could buy

    ———————————

    The best team money could buy? Really? Here are the top 15 team salaries from 1989.

    =============================

    That doesn’t help you. 49ers are head and shoulders the most expensive team on that list. They enjoyed the pre-salary cap era perks thoroughly.

  330. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 12:10 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 9:52 am

    Surrounded by the best team money could buy

    ———————————

    The best team money could buy? Really? Here are the top 15 team salaries from 1989.

    49ers $26,815,500

    Jets $22,458,350

    ——————–

    Just for comparison purposes the Patriots spent $153,784,704 this year. While the Giants spent $123,626,987 this year.

  331. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 8, 2019 at 12:24 pm

    The Pats playoff defense points allowed average for last 4 SB playoff runs is 21.7/gm.

    ————————-

    Incorrect (again).

    You’re adding Brady’s pick 6 vs Atlanta to the defense total. You also ignore Brady’s 5 turnovers, but who’s counting, right?

  332. “Just for comparison purposes the Patriots spent $153,784,704 this year. While the Giants spent $123,626,987 this year.”

    ====

    2018 cap hits (most important number)

    Giants cap hit = $170.9mil
    Pats cap hit = $175.9mil

    NFL cap = 177mil

    Sigh…

  333. “Incorrect (again).

    You’re adding Brady’s pick 6 vs Atlanta to the defense total”

    ———-

    Tom Brady has 12 career tackles… how did that happen?
    sigh

  334. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 10:00 am

    the only offensive player Brady had for an extended period of time that will be a Hall of Famer is Gronk. Montana played with the greatest WR of all time

    ——————————

    Why does someone who obviously never saw Montana play (or at best only saw him with Rice) continue to debate this?

  335. San Francisco won a Super Bowl 2 years after Montana went to KC, let’s see if New England wins 2 years after Brady leaves. I doubt it. What New England has done over the last twenty years is unprecedented. Most wins over two decades in NFL History and there is still a year left. I believe if Jerry Jones hadn’t been an idiot Johnson/Aikman could have broken Montana’s record years ago. If Johnson stays that team wins at least 4 Super Bowls. Sigbouncer, where do you rank Brady all-time? Curious to hear who you would have ahead of him.

  336. reluctantsadist says:
    February 8, 2019 at 2:22 pm

    Sigbouncer, where do you rank Brady all-time? Curious to hear who you would have ahead of him.

    ——————————————————–

    70s on up for me. Couldn’t debate the Graham, Unitas, Starr proponents.

    Overall including regular season numbers. When comparing overall production to era played in. Would rank my top 3 as:

    1 Montana
    2 Staubach
    3 Brady

    For a single game I would rank them:

    1 Montana
    2 Staubach
    3 Stabler

    On talent alone:

    1 Elway
    2 Bert Jones
    3 Marino

  337. 70s on up for me. Couldn’t debate the Graham, Unitas, Starr proponents.

    Overall including regular season numbers. When comparing overall production to era played in. Would rank my top 3 as:

    1 Montana
    2 Staubach
    3 Brady

    For a single game I would rank them:

    1 Montana
    2 Staubach
    3 Stabler

    On talent alone:

    1 Elway
    2 Bert Jones
    3 Marino
    ——-

    I can’t argue with that list at all. Not as big a fan of Bert Jones as you but the guy had talent. Staubach was crazy because he really didn’t get a shot until he was almost 30. I grew up a huge Stabler fan. I would’ve love to see some of those guys play with today’s rules.

  338. Montana a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls.
    Brady a mediocre 6-3 record in Super Bowls.
    ________________________________________________________________
    6-3 is WORLDS better than 4-0.
    Montana lost the Super Bowl plenty of times – EVERY TIME HE FAILED TO MAKE IT THERE.
    Failing early is not a good thing.
    Also during Montana’s run the NFC won something ridiculous like 11 in a row. The conferences were not compatible, and making it from the NFC was as good as winning. NO NFC teams lost a Super Bowl in that stretch, not just Montana.

  339. reluctantsadist says:
    February 8, 2019 at 3:45 pm

    Not as big a fan of Bert Jones as you but the guy had talent. Staubach was crazy because he really didn’t get a shot until he was almost 30. I grew up a huge Stabler fan. I would’ve love to see some of those guys play with today’s rules.

    ——————————————————-

    Can you imagine Marino’s numbers today with the Marks Brothers and Nat Moore getting free releases? Same here on Stabler and the Raiders. Didn’t know who to root for in that 1980 wildcard game vs Houston after they traded Snake to the Oilers.
    The 1976 Raiders named The Greatest Team of All-Time. Doesn’t get any better than that.

  340. If a quarterback went 4-6 in Super Bowls, that is still much better than 4-0. Four gold medals and 6 silvers. In Montana’s 5th best year he failed to make it to the big game. In Brady’s 9th best year, he made it.
    There is no more argument. Wax nostalgic all you want for Broadway Joe, SanFran Joe, or Cotton Eyed Joe. This argument has been over for a few years already and the gap just grows no matter what else happens.

  341. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 8, 2019 at 12:28 pm

    That doesn’t help you. 49ers are head and shoulders the most expensive team on that list. They enjoyed the pre-salary cap era perks thoroughly.
    —————————————————————

    Obviously math is not sig’s long suit. We are talking about someone who thinks 4 > 6, 4 > 9, 7 > 13, .695 > .750 and .571 > .692.
    We have entered the theater of the absurd. 2018 spending limited by a cap is somehow being equated with 1989 spending limited only by an owner’s willingness to spend. Where Eddie D spending 20% more than the next closest team is inconsequential but the Pats cap spending being 2% closer to the ceiling THEY ARE BOTH LIMITED TO than the Giants is worthy of mentioning. It’s like some football Twilight Zone where simple math, winning in the playoffs and honesty don’t matter.

    Of course given the rate at which factual rejoinders get deleted they apparently don’t matter much either

  342. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 5:09 pm

    Where Eddie D spending 20% more than the next closest team is inconsequential but the Pats cap spending being 2% closer to the ceiling THEY ARE BOTH LIMITED TO than the Giants is worthy of mentioning.

    —————————————–

    2018 Total Cap Money for all allocations including:
    Active Players
    Dead Cap
    Reserve

    Patriots $175,468,029

    NY Jets $106,123,393

    There, feel better now?

    While the 49ers spent about 16% more than the Jets in 1989.
    The Patriots spent about 60% more than the Jets this past year (2018).

    ————–

    Team salaries from 1989.

    49ers $26,815,500

    Jets $22,458,350

  343. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 6:35 pm

    Team salaries from 1989.
    ——————————————–

    How obtuse. The relevant point was Eddie D could (and did) spend whatever he wanted. He did in fact assemble the very best team his UNCAPPED money could buy. The Niners never had to let go of someone they didn’t want to because of $. EVERY team has a hard cap in 2018, the Pats have had to watch players leave that by rule they could not pay.

  344. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 6:50 pm

    EVERY team has a hard cap in 2018, the Pats have had to watch players leave that by rule they could not pay.

    ——————————————————-

    And they were compensated draft picks for those players as previously pointed out. There are plenty of benefits to today’s cap.
    You and others have failed to acknowledge the multitude of ways to acquire star players and quality starters unavailable to teams of Montan’s era. Teams pretty much lived or died by the draft back then.

  345. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:02 pm

    You and others have failed to acknowledge…
    ————————————-

    Because it is silly. I’m not indulging the flights of fancy required to say that it isn’t far more difficult to keep a good team together now than it was when players existed in a form of indentured servitude. You can’t find one reputable source that would agree with that foolishness. You can take all the trips through the looking glass you like but out here in the real world it just doesn’t fly. Just like out here:
    4 > 6
    4 > 9
    7 > 13
    .695 > .750
    .571 > .692

    Your chiding of folks that didn’t see Montana play is amusing to someone that did.
    Until 2014 I was on the Montana side of the argument. Just as at one time I had a hard time putting Montana ahead of Starr and Unitas I had to see that 4th ring before I could put Brady in the discussion with Joe Cool. What he has done since has put him head and shoulders above them all. Brady doesn’t have the physical skills of Montana, the leadership of Unitas, the will to win of Starr or the release of Marino but he has the best combination of all those traits of anyone I’ve ever seen play the position AND he far and away has the highest football IQ. What Tom Brady does best is win, and at the end of the day that’s why they play.

  346. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    I’m not indulging the flights of fancy required to say that it isn’t far more difficult to keep a good team together now than it was when players existed in a form of indentured servitude. You can’t find one reputable source that would agree with that foolishness.

    —————————-

    I prefer examples of as proof over “opinions” of any individual deemed a “reputable source”.
    Here are mine.

    Colts 12 year run with Peyton Manning (end 2010) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 1 losing season

    Steelers 15 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 0 losing seasons

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

    Ravens 19 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (2-0) – 3 losing seasons

    These 4 teams plus the Patriots makes 5 teams in the cap era provided as examples.

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from Montana’s era to use in comparison.

  347. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    I’m not indulging the flights of fancy required to say that it isn’t far more difficult to keep a good team together now than it was when players existed in a form of indentured servitude. You can’t find one reputable source that would agree with that foolishness.

    —————————-

    These 4 teams plus the Patriots makes 5 teams in the cap era provided as examples of long term sustained success.

    Colts 12 year run with Peyton Manning (end 2010) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 1 losing season

    Steelers 15 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 0 losing seasons

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

    Ravens 19 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (2-0) – 3 losing seasons

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from the 49ers era to use in comparison.

  348. All of those “prolonged successes” dont touch the Pats. Not. Even. Close. . Gap between them is greater than any 80s team and the 49ers.

    Still no response about fewer teams, no modern free agency, no salary cap, no modern drug testing annnnd yet 49ers still indisputably were less successful. 49ers should have won more. It was an easier era to dominate back then. Fact.

  349. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 2:17 pm
    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 10:00 am

    the only offensive player Brady had for an extended period of time that will be a Hall of Famer is Gronk. Montana played with the greatest WR of all time

    ——————————

    Why does someone who obviously never saw Montana play (or at best only saw him with Rice) continue to debate this?

    ======================

    So Rice isn’t the best WR ever? If your going to start a different debate altogether, at least offer a segueue…. this is a new topic.

  350. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:44 pm

    It was an easier era to dominate back then. Fact.

    ————————-

    Then you should have no trouble providing 5 teams from back then so we can compare.

    Waiting…

  351. “And they were compensated draft picks for those players as previously pointed out. There are plenty of benefits to today’s cap.“

    Yea Pats lost their starting CB, starting left tackle and starting RB from last year and got a few mid to late rd picks… that’s not equal compensation, it’s not designed to be. I think they’d rather have the actual NFL players instead. It’s harder to coach up new guys than to enjoy continuity with good players. It’s common sense.

  352. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 2:17 pm
    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 7, 2019 at 10:00 am

    the only offensive player Brady had for an extended period of time that will be a Hall of Famer is Gronk. Montana played with the greatest WR of all time

    ——————————

    Why does someone who obviously never saw Montana play (or at best only saw him with Rice) continue to debate this?

    ======================

    So Rice isn’t the best WR ever?

    ————————–

    You were crying about Brady not having a HOF weapon (Gronk) for as many SBs/years as Montana had Rice. When it fact Brady has had Gronk for more.

  353. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    AND he far and away has the highest football IQ.

    —————————–

    That would be Ken Stabler for my money.

  354. Better runs? Pre 1994 (advent of free agency and cap). The Packers, Bears, Steelers, Cowboy, Baltimore Colts all had historic runs, some much better than the 49ers.

  355. “You were crying about Brady not having a HOF weapon (Gronk) for as many SBs/years as Montana had Rice. When it fact Brady has had Gronk for more.”
    =========. =========

    Nah, just pointed out cold facts. And Rices receiving numbers beat Gronks even just in Montana years. And they have played about equal amounts with each respective QBs, Rice 109 games with JM, Gronk 111 games with TB.

  356. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 9:22 am

    Better runs? Pre 1994 (advent of free agency and cap). The Packers, Bears, Steelers, Cowboy, Baltimore Colts all had historic runs, some much better than the 49ers.

    ————————

    Thanks for proving my point.

    You had to go all the way back to the 1950s-1960s-1970s to come up with the Packers, Steelers, Cowboys and Colts.
    And the 80s Bears don’t compare to any team I listed with just an 8 year run – 1 Super Bowl – 1 losing season.
    You couldn’t even come up with one team who had a comparable run (that coincided with the 49ers) to any of the 5 teams I provided with runs in the same era.

    So much for your “It’s easier to dominate back then” theory with respects to the cap era.
    Since you or the commentdelete guy couldn’t come up with the examples to match mine we are now done with this discussion.

  357. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 9:24 am

    Nah, just pointed out cold facts. And Rices receiving numbers beat Gronks even just in Montana years. And they have played about equal amounts with each respective QBs, Rice 109 games with JM, Gronk 111 games with TB.

    ——————————

    You know full well the discussion was playoffs and Super Bowls. You continue moving the goal posts in the majority of your responses.

  358. You misrepresented what I said. I never said equal amounts of SBs, I used a pct, 50% Rice is more than 33% Gronk. Rices stats are better over essentially the same amount of games. Fact. And in 7 years with Montana Rice played 11playoff games with him, Gronk played in 10 first 7 years with Brady (2016 out with injury). So again, siimilar amount of games and Rice had better stats. Yet Gronk, who had less production than Rice won lots more.

  359. sigbouncer says:
    February 9, 2019 at 11:26 am
    Gronk with Brady:

    16 Playoff Games
    4 Super Bowls

    Rice with Montana:

    11 Playoff Games
    2 Super Bowls

    Wrong. Gronk with Brady: 3 Super Bowls

  360. You couldn’t even come up with one team who had a comparable run (that coincided with the 49ers) to any of the 5 teams I provided with runs in the same era.

    ========/////

    You provided zero comparable teams “of the era” to the Pats. There aren’t any…att alll. I provided many who enjoyed the perks I pointed out that you have yet to address.

    Appreciate you proving my point.

  361. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 11:42 am

    Wrong. Gronk with Brady: 3 Super Bowls

    ——————————-

    4 Super Bowls:

    2012 vs Giants
    2015 vs Seahawks
    2018 vs Philly
    2019 vs Rams

    Goodbye…

  362. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 11:42 am
    Gronk with Brady:

    16 Playoff Games
    4 Super Bowls

    Rice with Montana:

    11 Playoff Games
    2 Super Bowls
    Wrong. Gronk with Brady: 3 Super Bowls
    ———————————————–

    You’re missing the real point. Once again Montana is being given ‘credit’ for failing earlier in the playoffs. The reason Montana & Rice only have 11 playoff games together is with a healthy GOAT WR at his disposal Montana produced 3 straight one n dones. In 2 of those games they only managed 3 points. If Brady had 3 straight one n dones, never mind doing it with the GOAT or only putting up 3 points, you can bet we’d be hearing all about it. The further this discussion goes the more the case gets made for Montana being over rated.

  363. Your right, but I was working with the Rice time frame (7yrs). I should have been clearer.

    Still doesn’t help you, as Rice’s pct is still higher.

    And you left a barge load of unanswered points on table. Still no answer for drug testing, salary cap, free agency or fewer teams. Or Montana’s higher penchant for one and dones in playoffs. Not the GOAT. And this despite playing in an easier era for prolonged success as I proved.

  364. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    I’m not indulging the flights of fancy required to say that it isn’t far more difficult to keep a good team together now than it was when players existed in a form of indentured servitude. You can’t find one reputable source that would agree with that foolishness.

    —————————-

    These 4 teams plus the Patriots makes 5 teams in the cap era provided as examples of long term sustained success in the same playing era.

    Colts 12 year run with Peyton Manning (end 2010) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 1 losing season

    Steelers 15 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 0 losing seasons

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

    Ravens 19 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (2-0) – 3 losing seasons

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from the 49ers era to use in comparison

    —————————-

    Still waiting comment…

    Looks like this cap era free agency where star players and starters can be acquired via free agency and replace outgoing players (who also can get teams compensatory picks besides providing the cap relief to sign free agents) isn’t such a bad deal as you made it out to be, huh?

  365. Current era is harder to dominate because of : salary cap, free agency, players being more specialized, film technology and study vastly expanded, added physicians, nutritionists and trainers to the staff, better medical care, better training methods, more specialized coaches, better equipment, increase complexity of playbooks, more player movement, higher pct of top athletes being drawn to the NFL, more money in the NFL overall, more teams, tougher drug testing, tougher head injury protocols, more media scrutiny, shorter tenures for head coaches, more nights per week of games, better and more consistent turf conditions and on and on …….

  366. Still waiting for any team comparison salary cap, free agency era comparable to the Pats……

    I gave you a bunch of examples of great runs ( more than just two or three SB appearances) prior.

    And love how you consider a 9-7 season something a dynasty would care about. Yikes. That’s worse than an AFC finalist flag. If your straining that hard then the early 90s Bills should count as a pre cap, pre free agency juggernaut too.

  367. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 9, 2019 at 12:09 pm

    You’re missing the real point. Once again Montana is being given ‘credit’ for failing earlier in the playoffs. The reason Montana & Rice only have 11 playoff games together is with a healthy GOAT WR at his disposal Montana produced 3 straight one n dones.

    ————————————–

    So what? Montana lost two games to the legendary Giants teams. He didn’t even finish in one of the games, knocked out around or just after the half.
    Brady’s never even faced a defensive player like Lawrence Taylor (whom his coach calls the best player he ever coached, hmmmm).

    And Brady (4 ints and 2 fumbles) went one and done in back to back years vs Baltimore and the Jets with Mark Butt Fumbler Sanchez as the quarterback.
    I’d say there is much more honor in taking a beating from Lawrence Taylor and his crew than this.

  368. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:24 pm

    Still waiting comment…
    ———————————————–

    As am I, on several points. I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of how:
    4 > 6
    4 > 9
    7 > 13
    .695 > .750
    .571 > .692

    The difference being I am not getting into any silly discussion that subjectively equates what far less accomplished teams have done to what New England has with you as some kind of self appointed arbiter of the absurd only to see you either move the goalposts or backpedal like a clown on a unicycle.

  369. sigbouncer says:
    January 29, 2019 at 7:28 pm

    tedmurph says:
    January 29, 2019 at 7:09 pm

    Ok, so we take a gm where Belichick wasn’t the DC

    ————————————-

    You either know your Giants history or you don’t. I can only lead you to the water.

    —————

    For tedmurph. Have you seen the new ‘Bill and Bill’ special on NFL Network yet?

    What I told you about it being Belichick’s scheme/defense that Montana and the 49ers defeated 21-10 in the 1984 playoffs…despite Parcells not having a defensive coordinator in name on that team. Well listen to Lawrence Taylors comments on that show about when Parcells told him that Belichick was doing all the Giants game planning/scheme/running the defensive calls since back in 1983.

  370. One and dones:

    Brady- 2 in 19 years

    Montana – 4 in13 years

    And calling the NY Giants “ legendary” kind of hurts your there were no other contenders against the Montana 49ers stance (2 Super Bowl wins)

    It’s a losing hand your playing.

  371. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 9, 2019 at 1:27 pm

    like a clown on a unicycle.

    ——————

    When the name calling starts the discussion is over.

    Stay classy.

  372. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 1:34 pm

    And calling the NY Giants “ legendary” kind of hurts your there were no other contenders against the Montana 49ers stance (2 Super Bowl wins)

    ————————————————–

    I didn’t write that.

  373. sigbouncer says:
    February 7, 2019 at 1:32 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 7, 2019 at 11:23 am

    No amount of stat finagling replaces very simple math
    9 > 4
    6 > 4

    ———————-

    Then go argue with Belichick about how much better Charles Haley is than Lawrence Taylor – The greatest player Belichick coached in his own words. But what does Belichick know, right?

    5 > 2
    5 > 2

    See you need to understand that in a team sport there are other players who matter.

    So when you cite things like Brady’s playoff wins and ignore that in 1/3 (10) of Brady’s playoff wins he underperformed (qb rating in 50s-70s) and was carried by his team to the wins.

    In 20-25% of Brady’s playoff wins he had more turnovers than touchdowns.
    By comparison Montana only had 1 playoff win where he had more turnovers than touchdowns.

    In over half (5) of Brady’s Super Bowls his offenses only averaged 16 points a game.
    By comparison in Montana’s 4-0 Super Bowl wins his offenses averaged 35 points a game. And even scored 55 points on the #1 ranked defense.

    ———————-

  374. sigbouncer says:
    February 9, 2019 at 7:27 pm

    5 > 2

    See you need to understand that in a team sport there are other players who matter.
    ———————————————

    See, you need to understand that only one position is charged with wins and losses and the discussion originated with the fallacy that Montana was the greater QB based on rewarding him for losing sooner in the playoffs.

  375. sigbouncer says:
    February 9, 2019 at 12:46 pm
    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 9, 2019 at 12:09 pm

    You’re missing the real point. Once again Montana is being given ‘credit’ for failing earlier in the playoffs. The reason Montana & Rice only have 11 playoff games together is with a healthy GOAT WR at his disposal Montana produced 3 straight one n dones.

    ————————————–

    So what? Montana lost two games to the legendary Giants teams.

    ============//////////////

    Uh, ok… so you didn’t write that?

  376. Can you read?

    Show me where I wrote: “there were no other contenders against the Montana 49ers stance”

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 1:34 pm

    And calling the NY Giants “ legendary” “kind of hurts your there were no other contenders against the Montana 49ers stance” (2 Super Bowl wins)

    ————————–

    I didn’t write that.

  377. I only quoted legendary, you added the other quote marks. And you’ve stated multiple times the 49ers had no peers like the Pats have had. Which is false, as none of your Pats “peers” are even remotely close to their success. Whereas the Giants and Bills, along with the many others I listed are comparable with the 49ers as they played under different rules than the Pats.

  378. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:16 pm

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 8, 2019 at 7:39 pm

    I’m not indulging the flights of fancy required to say that it isn’t far more difficult to keep a good team together now than it was when players existed in a form of indentured servitude. You can’t find one reputable source that would agree with that foolishness.

    —————————-

    I prefer examples of as proof over “opinions” of any individual deemed a “reputable source”.
    Here are examples of cap era teams with sustained success.

    Colts 12 year run with Peyton Manning (end 2010) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 1 losing season

    Steelers 15 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 0 losing seasons

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

    Ravens 19 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (2-0) – 3 losing seasons

    These 4 teams plus the Patriots makes 5 teams in the cap era provided as examples.

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from Montana’s era to use in comparison.

  379. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 10:09 pm

    I only quoted legendary, you added the other quote marks. And you’ve stated multiple times the 49ers had no peers

    ——————-

    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:00 pm

    You certainly use what you view as ‘competition played against’ very selectively here. Montana had to get by 3 Legendary teams during his run in the Giants, Bears and Redskins with 6 Super Bowls between them.

  380. So, the 49ers did have peers? Guess you changed your mind.

    And your Pats era examples, no matter how many times you post them, fall faaaaar short of examples of a peer to the Pats.

    No team has even half their conference titles and only one has half their Super Bowl titles (Denver) since the cap and free agency The Pats are the only team since 01 with a winning record against playoff teams. There’s no one close. You’re again straining hard by counting 8-8 and 9-7 seasons as accomplishments. It’s been about 17 years since the Pats posted one of those (2002)

    And your clearly going outside Brady’s playing days, so it’s disingenuous to limit counter examples to just 49ers era Montana.

    I provided many teams with prolonged success already that enjoyed the pre salary cap, pre free agency era. And they were much, much stronger examples than yours. It’s irrefutable. The records and amount of titles don’t lie.

  381. sigbouncer says:
    February 10, 2019 at 9:02 am

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from Montana’s era to use in comparison.
    ——————————————————————————

    Again, I am not here to indulge your flights of fancy when you can’t adequately answer the simplest of math questions. The modern era is held by the NFL HoF to have begun in 1960, the cap was initiated in ’94 meaning it did not impact contracts until ’95. From ’60 to 95 there were indeed teams, including but not limited to the Packers, Steelers and Boys (x2), that were able to sustain excellence similar to the Niners. From ’95 to ’18 no team has come even remotely close to what New England has done, anyone with even a modicum of sense would laugh at your list. None of which has any bearing on the subject at hand here. The discussion, which you seem to have lost track of, involves the GOAT QB. I entered it when you brought up winning %’s because that is where the bullet hits the bone. Once we get to the point of winnowing the great QB’s of the modern era down, whether we are talking a Staubach, Montana or Brady, down to discern a GOAT we need a realistic benchmark. In that regard winning, specifically playoff winning, isn’t just everything it is the only thing. The unfortunate part of this exercise for me is as a result I have had to put my previous opinion of Montana under a microscope, I found it was somewhat lacking. It is too bad you lack the objectivity to view the subject through anything but a distorted lens.

  382. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 10:37 am

    So, the 49ers did have peers? Guess you changed your mind.

    And your clearly going outside Brady’s playing days, so it’s disingenuous to limit counter examples to just 49ers era Montana.

    ————————–

    That’s because you are merging two entirely different discussions.

    One discussion is a post cap era (1994 on up) point being made about “sustained success” in the cap era.

    The other is a comparison of legendary teams played and has nothing to do with sustained success pre cap.

    My opinion hasn’t wavered.

  383. The only reason why Brady is playing now is due to rules.

    Brees and Peyton (Won SB at 39 – Rivers-Ben both approaching 40 now) have shown the 40 year age mark for quarterbacks today is very attainable. The same thing goes for quarterback statistics today. Much better due to rules. To penalize quarterbacks who played in the days of actually taking hits for not having same career longevity is ridiculous.

    You wanna do an actual fair comparison of quarterbacks in their prime? Then take Montana’s first 10 years as the 49ers starter and compare it to Brady’s first 10 years as the Patriots starter.

    In this 10 year time period we have Montana going to 4 Super Bowls (4-0) and Brady going to 3 Super Bowls (3-0).
    You wanna add Montana’s 2 year stint in KC then it’s 4-0 in 12 years to 3-1 for Brady in 12 years.

  384. “Here are examples of cap era teams with sustained success.

    Colts 12 year run with Peyton Manning (end 2010) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 1 losing season

    Steelers 15 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (1-1 record) – 0 losing seasons

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

    Ravens 19 year run (current) – 2 Super Bowls (2-0) – 3 losing seasons

    These 4 teams plus the Patriots makes 5 teams in the cap era provided as examples.

    I will be waiting for your 5 teams from Montana’s era to use in comparison.”

    ===. ======/////.

    Gives examples of cap era teams with some but not nearly equal success as Pats….combined.

    Includes teams not in the Brady era

    Only asks for counter examples limited to the “Montana era”

    …… I see what you did there.

  385. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 2:07 pm

    Also Packers have had 4 losing seasons since Reggie White signed, not 2

    —————

    sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 8:16 pm

    Packers 22 year run (end 2016) – 3 Super Bowls (2-1) – 2 losing seasons (Started with Reggie White free agent signing)

  386. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 4:13 pm

    Gives examples of cap era teams with some but not nearly equal success as Pats….combined.

    Includes teams not in the Brady era

    Only asks for counter examples limited to the “Montana era”

    …… I see what you did there.
    —————————————————

    Strawman, deflection, avoidance, misrepresentation… It’s what’s been done here right along. Not one of those teams comes close to what New England has accomplished while some modern era pre-cap teams were comparable to SF. But AGAIN, none of that has anything to do with the actual GOAT QB discussion. It’s just more smoke and mirrors. Careers exist in their totality, not increments. It’s just ridiculous, we are now to hold Brady’s durability and longevity against him.

  387. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 4:13 pm

    Only asks for counter examples limited to the “Montana era”

    …… I see what you did there.

    ———————————-

    Cap era is limited to 1994 up.
    I’d expect a similar time period (20ish years or so) as a fair example since the cap era doesn’t go 30-40 years deep.

    Understand if you have to go all the way back to the 1950s-60s (casting a wider net) just to find 5 comparable teams within the same time period (20ish years or so) it weakens your assertion that:

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

  388. Exactly, some freshly picked cherries.

    A per your parameters if legendary Giants played in Brady era, they’d be on your sustained success list too. You merged it, not me.

  389. Your sustained success examples hardly compare to the Pats never mind the lesser 49ers run. Your bending the rules all over the place. Now the Montana era extends over a 20 year period, yet we can’t give Brady bonus points for longevity. It’s not “the Montana” era, it’s the pre cap era.

  390. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

    ———-

    ^^^^ This is what I initially responded to. You made the assertion that it is harder to sustain success today. I gave you 5 examples of teams with sustained success in the cap era from 1994 up. And asked you/comment to back your assertions of the cap era = harder sustain success.

    This has nothing to do with saying these teams having to be equal to a NE or SF.
    There is a reason there is only 1 “Team of the Decade” in each decade.

  391. Explain again how keeping the same well drafted and well coached players over a long period of time is somehow harder than scrambling to fill holes every year (and mid year) due to free agency because as we know lots of players cash in after getting a ring, then coaching them into your system, all while juggling the cap number? No one else has come close to doing what BB and TB has done under that degree of difficulty, for that duration of time, in league history.

  392. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 5:19 pm

    A per your parameters if legendary Giants played in Brady era, they’d be on your sustained success list too.

    ———————

    sigbouncer says:
    February 10, 2019 at 11:35 am

    One discussion is a post cap era (1994 on up) point being made about “sustained success” in the cap era.

    The other is a comparison of legendary teams played and has nothing to do with sustained success pre cap.

    ———————————

    I’d consider a team with sustained success at least a decade or more.

    There are plenty of NFL teams throughout history with a nice run of 4-8 years.

  393. “This has nothing to do with saying these teams having to be equal to a NE or SF.”

    Except that you took the entirety of the post cap era and pointed to some ok runs yet narrowed my selection to on the 80’s even thoughI pointed out qualifying teams. And you didn’t answer any of the new league developments that Montana’s 49ers didn’t have to deal with.

    And Giants qualify for your 10 year run parameter still.

  394. Giants ‘84-93 10 years, 2 Super Bowls (2-0) , 9-4 playoff record , (only 2 losing seasons)

    Redskins ‘82-‘92 11years, 4 Super Bowls (3-1)., 16-5 playoff record, (only 1 losing season)

    Add these to the large pile we’ve offered you for precautionary, pre free agency sustained success stories

  395. Raiders ‘72-85 14 years, 3 Super Bowls (3-0), 15-8 playoff record, ( only one missed playoff). (Could actually even go back further with this one)

    Cowboys 70-‘85, 5 Super Bowls, (2-3), 19-12 playoff record, ( no losing records)

    70’s to early 80s Steelers of course, no intro needed

    And 49ers.

    There, you have 6 teams within 20 years of your arbitrary limit.

  396. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 7:27 pm

    There, you have 6 teams within 24 years.

    ———————-

    Good. Now explain to me how having just 1 more team in basically the same time frame proves your assertion below.

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

  397. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 7:11 pm

    Add these to the large pile we’ve offered you for precautionary, pre free agency sustained success stories

    ————————-

    Large pile? I only count 2 other teams Colts and Packers both starting in the late 1950s.

    How about getting at least 3 more teams from 1955-’69?

  398. There were other teams that you arbitrarily said didn’t count but applied under the rule changes I was talking about. And the teams I listed went to and won quite a few more SBs than the post cap teams you listed.

  399. There is no comparison in terms of how difficult it is to establish a consistent championship caliber winner in today’s environment than before FA and the cap. To suggest otherwise is beyond understanding. Pre cap once a good team was assembled it was only ownership’s willing to spend that decided whether it would stay together and if needed get the pieces that would make a good team great. I know this from having watched Joe Robbie, Dan Rooney, Jack Kent Cooke, Eddie DeBartolo, Pat Bowlen and Jerry Jones each do it in turn. Few people now recall it but even Al Davis wasn’t beyond big spending, he just hated doing it. As a Phins fan of a certain age I remember Shula coming here from Baltimore largely because Robbie was willing to spend and Rosenbloom was not.

    As much as it irritates me to say it, since the advent of the cap no team has been comparable to New England. The teams mentioned (Colts, Ravens, Packers and Steelers) along with the Broncos (left out from bias perhaps?) have had some nice runs but from a comparative standpoint they shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence with the Patriots. Only one team in the league has entered each of the past 17 seasons as a serious threat to win it all. The dominance has been nothing short of spectacular and only one player and one coach have been the reason for that continuing assessment. As a coach Belichick is right there with Paul Brown, Lombardi, Shula and Walsh (Lambeau was before my time) and maybe even better.

    The Walsh/Montana 49ers had a heck of a decade in the 80’s but just off the top of my head the pre cap Green Bay Packers, Dolphins, Steelers, Cowboys, Redskins and Raiders were either superior, equal, close to or not all that far off of them. In particular the Raiders get short shrift in these types of comparisons but from the mid 70’s to mid 80’s they were a force.

    As for the heart of the matter, there is no longer a reasonable case to be made that the greatest QB of the Super Bowl era is not Brady. And that is coming from a Dolphins fan. While I do not hold with counting Brady’s era induced longevity against him even if all you look at is the first 15 years of his career, the length of Montana’s, Brady did more. Both won 4 Super Bowls but Brady also went to 2 others and consistently went further in the playoffs. Wins, especially playoff wins, are what matter. In comparison to their in era peers, ie QB’s playing under the same player movement and game rules, Brady has dominated his era far more completely than Montana dominated his. When looking at QB’s with 75 regular season starts or more from each of their eras Montana’s .711 ranks behind Lamonica’s .753 and Staubach’s .733 and not far ahead of Bradshaw’s .684. Brady’s .775 dwarfs Manning’s .685, Wilson’s .674 and Roethlisberger’s .670. The playoff margins in comparison to their peers with 15 or more playoff games are even more extreme. Montana’s .696 ranks behind Bradshaw’s .737 and Aikman’s .733. Brady’s .750 dwarfs Roethlisberger’s .619 and Manning’s .519. Whatever the metric of success, whether it’s individual playoff success or in era peer comparison Brady is the greater QB. Equally important having watched all the players in the above comparisons if I had to choose one to build my team around I would choose Brady, Staubach and then Montana.

  400. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 8:33 pm

    There were other teams that you arbitrarily said didn’t count.

    —————-

    I gave you the reason for your Bears pick. Only 8 years with 1 losing season (1 SB) for the Bears. Cowboys of the 90s have the same issue, only 8 years with 1 losing season.

  401. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 8:33 pm

    And the teams I listed went to and won quite a few more SBs than the post cap teams you listed

    ————————-

    Giants went to the same as the Colts-Ravens-Steelers post cap teams (2 SBs) and sustained less years of success. And the Ravens or Steelers could surpass the Giants in the coming years as their streak is current.
    Redskins went to the same as the Packers post cap team (3 SBs) and sustained less years of success as well.

  402. finnymcphin says:
    February 10, 2019 at 8:51 pm

    The playoff margins in comparison to their peers with 15 or more playoff games are even more extreme. Montana’s .696 ranks behind Bradshaw’s .737 and Aikman’s .733. Brady’s .750 dwarfs Roethlisberger’s .619 and Manning’s .519.

    —————————

    Sometimes things aren’t so simple as to just look up the numbers. Often times we need to look deeper, especially in Montana’s case.

    Can you honestly attribute the Jan ’91 playoff loss to the Giants to Joe, when Joe was knocked out by a Marshall late in the 4th quarter leading by 1 point?

    The same with the Jan ’88 playoff loss to the Vikings when Joe went out at halftime down 20-3 when Walsh replaced him with Steve Young?
    We’ve all seen Joe’s comebacks and the two following years in the playoffs Joe put up 75 points on the Vikings (34 + 41) with 7 td passes.

    The Jan ’94 playoff loss to the Bills when Joe was in KC. In the 3rd quarter down by 7 and driving down the field Joe gets taken out by a Bruce Smith hit.

    I’m not willing to give Joe losses in these playoff games. Those games are what I call incompletes. And if you take away these 3 games Joe’s playoff winning percentage (16-4) goes up to .800. By far the best of any QB.

    And don’t even get me started on the regular season…

  403. Uh, going to the same amount of SBs over a longer period is not a help to your argument here. And 8-8 and 9-7 seasons aren’t all that impressive, lots of owners would be bummed out by that kind of season.

    And the Giants were the only team I listed not to go at least 3, only one on your non Pats list did that. And we already listed many other precap teams as well. And you still haven’t answered how being free of the cap or modern free agency ( or any of the other reasons I pointed out) somehow made it harder for those teams.

  404. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 8:01 am

    And 8-8 and 9-7 seasons aren’t all that impressive, lots of owners would be bummed out by that kind of season.

    ——————–

    Yet you willingly used those 8-8’s and 9-7’s multiple times each just to get the Steelers and Giants to the 10 year (decade) threshold of sustained success.

  405. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 8:01 am

    And we already listed many other precap teams as well. And you still haven’t answered how being free of the cap or modern free agency ( or any of the other reasons I pointed out) somehow made it harder for those teams.

    ————————-

    You keep repeating the fabrication of “we listed many other precap teams”. Yet the only other two teams you listed date back all the way to the 1950s in Green Bay and the Colts. I’m still waiting for those 3 more teams from ’45-’69 to go with GB and the Colts.

    And I’ve written plenty on the pre cap post cap subject here. Go back and read my posts again. And understand I’m not the one who made the assertion that you did (below) and failed to back it up with proof.

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

  406. In the post cap era, I’d also point to teams currently like Seattle with 7 consecutive winning season (2 SBs). Seattle needing just one more non losing season in the next 3 years to qualify. Then there is Kansas City with 6 consecutive winning seasons and the best young quarterback in the game. The Colts have just 1 losing season in the last 7. And might be a candidate as well for sustained success if they can work their way into a couple Super Bowls and get a win in the near future with Captain Andrew Luck.

  407. Some people never get tired of making excuses, cherry picking stats and still losing the argument. Right sig?

  408. tedmurph says:
    February 11, 2019 at 9:23 am

    Some people never get tired of making excuses, cherry picking stats and still losing the argument. Right sig?

    ————————–

    I wouldn’t know. Wanna give me some help?

    BTW, did you happen to see NFL Network’s Bill and Bill special over the weekend? Where Lawrence Taylor tells the world (by way of a 1-1 conversation with Parcells) that Belichick was game planning and running his defensive scheme for those Giants teams dating back to 1983. Proving what I told you about the ’84 Playoff game between SF and NYG being a Belichick run defense. Despite the fact that Parcells had that DC position unfilled in name that year. Both Bill’s sitting right there together in agreement on this.

  409. tedmurph says:
    February 11, 2019 at 9:23 am

    Some people never get tired of making excuses, cherry picking stats and still losing the argument. Right sig?

    ————————–

    Did you happen to see NFL Network’s Bill and Bill special over the weekend? Where Lawrence Taylor tells the world (by way of a 1-1 conversation with Parcells) that Belichick was game planning and running his defensive scheme for those Giants teams dating back to 1983. Proving what I told you (in the ‘Belichick calls Lawrence Taylor his GOAT’ here) about the ’84 Playoff game between SF and NYG being a Belichick run defense. Despite the fact that Parcells had that DC position unfilled in name that year. Both Bill’s sitting right there together in agreement on this.

  410. tedmurph says:
    February 11, 2019 at 9:23 am

    Some people…

    ——-

    I almost forgot. On that Bill and Bill special they also discussed together how Parcells instructed him to come up with a defense vs the Bill that slowed down the game/ate the clock. While Parcells worked on the same with Erhardt for the offense.

    Remember that discussion we had as well in the ‘Belichick/LT is the GOAT’? 😉

  411. “And I’ve written plenty on the pre cap post cap subject here. Go back and read my posts again”

    I did and still haven’t found an explanation for it that really adds up and there’s also the other pre TB and/or pre cap era issues I’ve pointed out.

    And you keep adding year ranges arbitrarily. I listed the Bears (’32-46 was particularly good, 6 titles), Packers ( ’29-’44 was great, and the obvious Starr, VL ’60 -’72, 5 titles) and Baltimore Colts ( ’58- ’71, 3 titles, 5 title appearances) and you can add the Browns too, (crazy run between ’46 – ’72, surprised how long that one was) .

  412. “Yet you willingly used those 8-8’s and 9-7’s multiple times each just to get the Steelers and Giants to the 10 year (decade) threshold of sustained success.”

    Uh, don’t hate on your own rules, man. I didn’t make or like the rules but I played by them. And the teams I listed were obviously more successful than the ones on your list. And its kind of a bizarre stance to say the 70s Steelers weren’t an example of sustained success, and it was more than 10 years (72-84). And I’m no Steelers fan.

  413. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 10:42 am

    And you keep adding year ranges arbitrarily.

    —————————-

    sigbouncer says:
    February 10, 2019 at 5:13 pm

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 10, 2019 at 4:13 pm

    Only asks for counter examples limited to the “Montana era”

    …… I see what you did there.

    ———————————-

    Cap era is limited to 1994 up.
    I’d expect a similar time period (20ish years or so) as a fair example since the cap era doesn’t go 30-40 years deep.

    Understand if you have to go all the way back to the 1950s-60s (casting a wider net) just to find 5 comparable teams within the same time period (20ish years or so) it weakens your assertion

  414. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 10:50 am

    “Yet you willingly used those 8-8’s and 9-7’s multiple times each just to get the Steelers and Giants to the 10 year (decade) threshold of sustained success.”

    And its kind of a bizarre stance to say the 70s Steelers weren’t an example of sustained success

    —————————-

    It would be a bizarre stance if someone wrote that. You have me quoted very clearly above it, so we know I didn’t write that. So I can only assume that this is your stance?

    The Steelers finished b2b years in ’80-’81 at 9-7 and 8-8 in getting them to the decade threshold. Then the strike year of ’82 followed that up where teams only played 9 regular season games. The Steelers went 6-3 that year.

  415. “I’d expect a similar time period (20ish years or so) as a fair example since the cap era doesn’t go 30-40 years deep.”

    I gave you a bunch within your arbitrary 20 years. And the non 49ers went to a lot more SBs than your non Pats list. We’ve covered this.

    You were thirsty and I gave you a glass of water…. I guess you don’t like water.

  416. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 11:16 am

    “I’d expect a similar time period (20ish years or so) as a fair example since the cap era doesn’t go 30-40 years deep.”

    I gave you a bunch within your arbitrary 20 years.

    —————————-

    It’s not “arbitrary” to ask to produce examples within the same time frame of the cap era (’94 on up). How do you not understand this even with quoting me above your response?

    Something arbitrary would be for example. If you wrote “prolonged sustained success” (see your quote below) means to you an odd number of say 7 years or 8 years. As opposed to using the standard decade as your example – Since every decade there are the “Who is the team of the decade” discussions.

    In your showing 6 teams in one 24 year period (’70-’94) and just 3 teams in another 24 year period (’44-’69). This is no way proves your assertion below. When I have given 5 teams in the cap era with possibly 3 more on the way (Seattle 7 consecutive winning years – 2 SBs, KC 6 consecutive winning years with the best young QB in the NFL – Colts 7 years/Luck)… given time.

    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 6, 2019 at 12:51 pm

    Montana’s 49ers also enjoyed no modern free agency, no salary cap and fewer franchises. All making it easier to keep a great team together and have prolonged success. Its harder to sustain success nowadays.

  417. It is arbitrary. You went outside of the Brady era and then asked for “Montana” era only counter examples when obviously the rules in question didn’t exist/did exist in much longer spans of time. And the teams you picked weren’t all that dominant. That is a text book example of arbitrary.

  418. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 11, 2019 at 1:00 pm

    And the teams you picked weren’t all that dominant. That is a text book example of arbitrary.

    ———————————

    A text book example of arbitrary would be changing ones previous requirement of “prolonged sustained success” now to “dominant”. Because it’s much easier for some to do that than to admit ones error.

  419. sigbouncer says:
    February 11, 2019 at 6:55 am

    (yadda…yadda)
    I’m not willing to give Joe losses in these playoff games. Those games are what I call incompletes

    sigbouncer says:
    February 11, 2019 at 2:02 pm

    A text book example of arbitrary would be…
    _____________________________

    …inventing your own standard for W/L and creating a whole new game type. I have yet to find ‘incompletes’ listed anywhere as an NFL game type. When a team starts a QB in the playoffs it is with the hope he will produce a win and the understanding he may lose. No where in there is ‘incomplete.’ The NFL standard has always been the modern equivalent of come home with your shield or on it, you can not simultaneously discount Brady’s longevity because it’s “safer” now but excuse Montana’s lack of durability (for want of a better word), that is the height of hypocrisy.

    This is my 10th attempt to respond to the nonsense of you creating your own standard, your double speak and goal post moving. The moderation team seems intent on giving you free rein while even my original post was edited by them. Until my earlier post on this thread I had stopped posting here about a year ago and seldom read the comments anymore, in fact I seldom visit PFT at all anymore thanks to the moderation. Your (cough) debate style is akin to my 4 year old granddaughter’s, you simply change the parameters when it goes against you or pretend your disingenuous statements don’t exist and yet your posts sail right through. I doubt you will see this as it will no doubt be deleted just like the previous 10 but you can’t simply pick and choose what games and years count and which ones don’t. Not even Goodell gets to do that

  420. And Brady (4 ints and 2 fumbles) went one and done in back to back years vs Baltimore and the Jets with Mark Butt Fumbler Sanchez as the quarterback.
    I’d say there is much more honor in taking a beating from Lawrence Taylor and his crew than this.

    —-
    Peyton Manning also had a one and done against that very same Mark Sanchez the week before.

    No reason to think it couldn’t have happened to Montana.

  421. Montana had a lot of trouble against the Belichick defenses.

    The very same defensive schemes that Peyton Manning shredded more than once. And Mark Sanchez as has been mentioned above. And Nick Foles. And even Colin Kaepernick.

    Why couldn’t Montana do it?

    GOAT? Nah. 🙂

  422. sigbouncer says:
    February 10, 2019 at 9:09 am
    Chill_Donahue says:
    February 9, 2019 at 10:09 pm
    I only quoted legendary, you added the other quote marks. And you’ve stated multiple times the 49ers had no peers
    ——————-
    sigbouncer says:
    February 5, 2019 at 6:00 pm
    You certainly use what you view as ‘competition played against’ very selectively here. Montana had to get by 3 Legendary teams during his run in the Giants, Bears and Redskins with 6 Super Bowls between them.

    —-
    Why are we making excuses for Montana? You are arguing he is GOAT are you not? If he is GOAT then shouldn’t the bar be much higher than saying oh he was terrible because it was against 3 great teams? 🙂

  423. “I guess you missed copying my comments about those two games in your response. About how Brady blew the Eagles game at the end with a fumble. And how scoring 34 points on the 27th ranked scoring defense (Falcons) isn’t much of an accomplishment considering 10 NFL teams put up 28-34 points on the Falcons that year.”

    LOL, get some perspective and clean the sand out, junior. Your take on the Atlanta game is laughable at best and the sign of someone who is so blinding by jealousy that you minimize a 28-3 comeback starting late in the 3rd quarter.

  424. This tells you as Joe goes so do the 49ers.

    ——
    Nah, the 49ers won a Super Bowl with Montana’s backup. 🙂 And Young had over a 100 passer rating in every season since he took over for Montana.

    Looks like Joe didn’t mean quite as much to the success of the 49ers as you think. 😉

    Meanwhile, the Patriots missed the playoffs in 2008 with Brady’s backup after going 16-0 in the regular season the year before.

  425. “Greatest of his era – unfair to compare otherwise. If Brady played in Montana’s era his career would be over years ago with a 3-2 record in Super Bowls. If Montana was able to play for the 49ers until 40 he’d easily have 6 Super Bowls.”

    Here in reality, none of that happened and Brady is the GOAT.

  426. “I guess you missed copying my comments about those two games in your response. About how Brady blew the Eagles game at the end with a fumble. And how scoring 34 points on the 27th ranked scoring defense (Falcons) isn’t much of an accomplishment considering 10 NFL teams put up 28-34 points on the Falcons that year.”

    ——
    Brady in no way shape or form blew that game. I always put close zero blame for a strip sack on the blocking in front of the QB – just like the strip sack on Ryan the year before was on the blocking. I doubt Montana in his prime would have had a different result of that play. Given Montana’s sub par games against good defenses in the playoffs (which the Eagles were, despite Brady lighting them up) there’s reason to believe a Montana-led Patriots would have been blown right out of the Super Bowl.

    As for the Falcons defense, their playoff pass yardage given up went like this:
    208 yards and 75 passer rating to Russell Wilson. This includes giving up a garbage time TD drive.
    268 yards to Aaron Rodgers. 91 passer rating. This game was 37-7 Falcons with 4 minutes left in the 3rd quarter so once again…plenty of garbage time stats allowed.

    That defense and pass rush was phenomenal….and they carried it over to the first half of the Super Bowl. Brady was sacked 5 times. Until the Patriots figured it out and Brady ended up throwing for 442. Almost 100 yards more than the Falcons had given up in any game all season.

    So yes, it was very much so an accomplishment. 🙂

  427. I always put close zero blame for a strip sack on the blocking in front of the QB


    Whoops. I meant I put close to zero blame for a strip sack on anyone but the blocking in front of the QB….

  428. sigbouncer says:
    February 10, 2019 at 12:26 pm
    The only reason why Brady is playing now is due to rules.
    Brees and Peyton (Won SB at 39 – Rivers-Ben both approaching 40 now) have shown the 40 year age mark for quarterbacks today is very attainable. The same thing goes for quarterback statistics today. Much better due to rules. To penalize quarterbacks who played in the days of actually taking hits for not having same career longevity is ridiculous.
    You wanna do an actual fair comparison of quarterbacks in their prime? Then take Montana’s first 10 years as the 49ers starter and compare it to Brady’s first 10 years as the Patriots starter.
    In this 10 year time period we have Montana going to 4 Super Bowls (4-0) and Brady going to 3 Super Bowls (3-0).
    You wanna add Montana’s 2 year stint in KC then it’s 4-0 in 12 years to 3-1 for Brady in 12 years.

    —-
    The rules are the same today for everyone. Let’s see how far Ben or Rodgers goes. And where Brees goes. I suspect none of them will be winning MVPs at age 40 like Brady, nor will they be at or near the top of their game at age 41.

    Brady’s longetivity at a high level IMO puts him well clear of the pack in this conversation.

  429. sigbouncer says:
    February 11, 2019 at 6:55 am
    (yadda…yadda)
    I’m not willing to give Joe losses in these playoff games. Those games are what I call incompletes
    sigbouncer says:
    February 11, 2019 at 2:02 pm
    A text book example of arbitrary would be…
    _____________________________

    …inventing your own standard for W/L and creating a whole new game type in order to discount facts that don’t suit you. I have yet to find ‘incompletes’ listed anywhere as an NFL game type. When a team starts a QB in the playoffs it is with the expectation he will produce a win and the understanding he may lose. Nowhere in there is ‘incomplete.’ The NFL standard has always been the modern equivalent of come home with your shield or on it, you can not simultaneously discount Brady’s longevity because it’s “safer” now but excuse Montana’s lack of durability (for want of a better word), that is the height of hypocrisy. Your (cough) debate style is akin to my 4 year old granddaughter’s, you simply change the parameters when it goes against you or pretend your disingenuous statements don’t exist. I doubt you will see this as it will no doubt be deleted but you should know you can’t simply pick and choose what games and years count and which ones don’t for the rest of the planet and expect to be taken seriously. Not even Goodell gets to do that

  430. finnymcphin says:
    February 12, 2019 at 9:38 am

    When a team starts a QB in the playoffs it is with the expectation he will produce a win and the understanding he may lose. Nowhere in there is ‘incomplete.’

    ———————————–

    You can bet that if the tables were turned and Brady was leading a playoff game or out by halftime that the Brady supporters would be saying the same thing.

  431. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 9:41 am

    GoodellMustGo says:
    February 6, 2019 at 8:10 am

    Montana was 0-3 against the Giants in the playoffs with a very pedestrian passer rating of 69. Couldn’t even finish 2 of this games which tells me he’s not tough enough to be GOAT either.

    ————–

    Montana came back from two career ending injuries where doctors said he would never play again. Try showing some class with respects to a man who put his health on the line not once but twice for his love of the game.

    And Montana was 2-3 vs the Giants in the playoffs. Even that is a misleading stat. As when Joe left the last game (when his 49ers were going for a SB 3-Peat) late in the 4th quarter (with a 103 passer rating) the 49ers were ahead by 1. Then Steve Young came in and Roger Craig fumbled the game away.

    Now we’re done here since you feel the need to disrespect an NFL legend in Montana and the health risks the man took in coming back to play the game. Despite the recommendations by the most qualified physicians in the world telling him not to.

    I have more respect for this game than to have discussions with someone who has no respect for it or the players who play it.

  432. I have more respect for this game than to have discussions with someone who has no respect for it or the players who play it.

    —-
    My response to this got deleted so trying again. Yes I’ve seen Montana play. Yes I respect the guy. Who doesn’t? It was a simple and accurate observation that he failed to finish those games and he was awful in them. We all know what the narrative would be if that happened to Brady. 🙂

    I just find it comical that (not saying you just in general) people make way too many excuses for the guy not because they genuinely think he is the greatest of all time but because they simply don’t want to call a spade a spade and give Tom Brady his due. They’re still stuck in 2002 when evaluating Brady and his game. Objectivity isn’t their friend I guess. 🙂

  433. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 10:01 am
    finnymcphin says:
    February 12, 2019 at 9:38 am
    When a team starts a QB in the playoffs it is with the expectation he will produce a win and the understanding he may lose. Nowhere in there is ‘incomplete.’
    ———————————–
    You can bet that if the tables were turned and Brady was leading a playoff game or out by halftime that the Brady supporters would be saying the same thing.

    —–
    The Brady critics certainly wouldn’t!

    🙂

  434. I just find it comical that (not saying you just in general) people make way too many excuses for the guy not because they genuinely think he is the greatest of all time but because they simply don’t want to call a spade a spade and give Tom Brady his due. They’re still stuck in 2002 when evaluating Brady and his game. Objectivity isn’t their friend I guess.

    —-
    Proof? Just look at those going back to the leather helmet era of football to try and make an argument that Brady isn’t the greatest. It really is hilarious how the straws are being grasped around here.

    Acceptance is always the first step 🙂

  435. popcherrycoke says:
    February 12, 2019 at 8:52 am

    “I guess you missed copying my comments about those two games in your response. About how Brady blew the Eagles game at the end with a fumble. And how scoring 34 points on the 27th ranked scoring defense (Falcons) isn’t much of an accomplishment considering 10 NFL teams put up 28-34 points on the Falcons that year.”

    ———————————————

    Your take on the Atlanta game is laughable at best and the sign of someone who is so blinding by jealousy that you minimize a 28-3 comeback starting late in the 3rd quarter.

    —————————————

    Brady threw an interception to Alford that was returned for a touchdown in the first half and took 5 sacks. Brady was largely responsible for their deficit to Atlanta. And was bailed out by his defense in the second half along with Atlanta’s reluctance to eat the clock and put the game away with the run game.

    Brady putting up 3 touchdowns in the second half (with one touchdown pass) with mostly dump offs to his rb (White 14 receptions 110 yards – 3 rushing touchdowns) vs the 27th ranked defense just doesn’t impress me. Add in his performance in the first half and it’s even less impressive. And it’s a crime Brady was awarded MVP of the game over James White.

    Btw, there’s no “blinded by jealousy” here. I don’t dislike the Patriots or Brady. I was asked earlier here to rank the all time qb’s and had Brady ranked 3rd behind Montana and Staubach.

  436. Just wanted to put the Montana vs Belichick in it’s proper perspective.

    Montana vs Belichick. As I told tedmurph the Giants have been running Belichick’s defense and scheme since the 1983 season. Just because Parcells didn’t name a defensive coordinator, didn’t mean that Belichick wasn’t running the defense. This was confirmed by Lawrence Taylor in a one on one conversation with Parcells on the NFL Network ‘Bill and Bill’ special this past weekend. Parcells and Belichick sitting together neither disputing the fact that Belichick ran the defense when Parcells was the coach. Parcells even mentioned it again with Belichick nodding in agreement. So this means Montana’s two 3 touchdown game wins vs the Giants in 1984 (including the 21-10 playoff win) was against Belichick defenses.

    All in all while with the 49ers Montana faced Belichick defenses 9 times (5 reg season – 4 playoffs) from 1984-’90. Montana has a 5-4 winning record vs Belichick.

    Including passer ratings of:
    103.0 – ’90
    133.8 – ’89
    101.2 – ’88
    129.7 – ’84

    Even in the playoffs where Montana played the equivalent of 3 and less than 1/2 games vs Belichick. Montana won 1 game. Montana was leading another game by 1 point late in the 4th before getting knocked out. Lost 2 games, including getting knocked out before halftime in one of them down 21-3.

    So all this about Joe being terrible vs Belichick defenses isn’t exactly accurate.

  437. sigbouncer says:

    February 11, 2019 at 2:02 pm

    “So much for your “It’s easier to dominate back then” theory with respects to the cap era.”

    ” A text book example of arbitrary would be changing ones previous requirement of “prolonged sustained success” now to “dominant”. ”

    =============================

    Uh, I made the point, but you were the on who set the “requirement” parameters using winning record streaks, losing seasons, 10 season minimum…etc. I just said its harder to stay on or near the top nowadays for a long period of time. And I proved it, irrefutably. This is shown by the numerous examples given and the numerous issues I pointed out that the 49ers didn’t have to deal with. Also check out the “super bowl loser curse” list, lots of 00’s teams on there who made the SB then missed the playoffs the next year. Hard to stay on top for long nowadays.

    You never seem to answer the simple question of do you think Belichick would have found easier or harder to win if there was no cap, no free agency, fewer teams, no modern drug testing…etc.?

    Its not a trick question.

  438. “Brady putting up 3 touchdowns in the second half (with one touchdown pass) with mostly dump offs to his rb (White 14 receptions 110 yards – 3 rushing touchdowns) vs the 27th ranked defense just doesn’t impress me”

    ======================================

    So, to recap, if Montana had a Super Bowl win where he was down 28-3 in the 3rd qtr and he did it without Jerry Rice (aka the Gronk injury spot) playing…that would not be impressive?

    I’ll take my answer off air. My head hurts and I need to lie down.

  439. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 10:01 am

    You can bet that if the tables were turned and Brady was leading a playoff game or out by halftime that the Brady supporters would be saying the same thing.
    ———————————————–

    And yet the only one in here making arbitrary exclusions of game records and minimizing length of career is you and you are getting closer to that arbitrary 4 year old’s standard with every post. Right down to “Sally would have done it so I did it first.” You are well past being able to credibly call out anyone else when it comes to being arbitrary. All the distortions and mistruths you have stooped to have accomplished to this point is to destroy your own credibility in the discussion and illuminate that maybe Staubach belongs in the discussion next to Montana as the 2nd best QB.

    I’m not some Pats honk Brady boy. Very much the opposite, my team is in the same division and has been relegated to 2nd world status by Brady’s accomplishments. If Dolphins fans can summon enough objectivity to acknowledge the obvious truth and give it up to Brady as the GOAT then I have to wonder what drives your distortions. With that level of bias I’d think most likely you are a Steelers, Raiders or Colts fan. We should all be appreciating what we are watching in Tom Brady, we will not see his like again.

  440. iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 11:55 am

    Yo, sigbouncer. Give it up already.
    6 > 4
    9 > 4
    13 > 8

    (mike drop)

    ————————–

    Bill Belichick is on line one for you awaiting your debate of Charles Haley being better than Belichick’s GOAT Lawrence Taylor because:

    5 > 2
    5 > 2
    16 > 10

  441. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 12, 2019 at 11:46 am

    You never seem to answer the simple question of do you think Belichick would have found easier or harder to win if there was no cap, no free agency, fewer teams, no modern drug testing…etc.?

    ——————–

    First time I’ve seen you ask this (Belichick).

    I believe Belichick would say it’s easier for him to sustain success today in having the benefit of free agency and compensatory picks awarded vs using basically just the draft. I think Belichick’s draft record would support this as well.

    I made a comment yesterday here in the ‘Patriots draft picks’ article. It referenced how compensatory picks are almost like double dipping. Belichick let Solder and Butler both walk atfer the ’17 season. Replaced them with Trent Brown and JC Jackson. Belichick not only saved 8.1 million dollars (the diff between Solder-Butler ’17 contracts vs Brown-Jack ’18 contracts). But the Pats are expected to get 2 additional compensatory picks in the 3rd round this year (two 3rd round picks).

    So Belichick picks up two extra 3rd round picks and gets 8.1 million to use in free agency etc just by getting rid of two overrated players. In the pre cap era he obviously wouldn’t be able to do this and if he released both Solder and Butler would be stuck with the draft as his only option to replace them.

    As for modern drug testing. It’s a joke. Pats starting right tackle Nick Kaczur cooperated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation in wearing a wire to get out of a rather large drug bust. Yet the NFL never suspended Kuczur, not even for one game. There are plenty more examples out there (Odell boat incident?) but no need to go any further with this.

  442. finnymcphin says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:05 pm

    minimizing length of career

    ————-

    If you honestly believe careers aren’t extended today then I have a couple bridges to sell you at rock bottom prices.
    And if you would like another response from me in the future. Then please leave out the ad hominem attacks.

    Stay classy.

  443. LOL You probably think Terry Bradshaw and Jim Plunkett are better than Dan Marino too.

    —————-

    iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 11:55 am
    Yo, sigbouncer. Give it up already.
    6 > 4
    9 > 4
    13 > 8

    (mike drop)

  444. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:15 pm

    Bill Belichick is on line one for you awaiting your debate of Charles Haley being better than Belichick’s GOAT Lawrence Taylor because:

    5 > 2
    5 > 2
    16 > 10

    —————

    Apples and oranges.
    LT (or Charles Haley) did not play the most important position in pro sports.
    i.e., Quarterback.

    QBs have always taken the majority of the credit for their team’s success.
    Conversely, they also take the majority of the blame as well.

  445. “I believe Belichick would say it’s easier for him to sustain success today in having the benefit of free agency and compensatory picks ”

    Posed the question several times, several ways already…. Pats lost their starting LT, CB and RB among others from their AFC title winning teams in 2017. They received what projects as a few mid to late round picks. That is not equal compensation, its not meant to be. I think BB would rather NFL players than lotto picks if salary was no object. BB’s draft record, especially in the top rounds, actually isn’t that great. He’s known for his trades and finding players no one wants. Its hard to do as no one has done it and nearly as successful. In a pre cap world BB would have enjoyed keeping the likes of Milloy, Law, McGinest, Vinatieri, Asante Samuel, Branch, Vrabel, Revis, Garrapolo et al. around a while longer. And he often doesn’t even enjoy the compensatory picks as he trades players BEFORE they are free agents.

    Trent Brown was acquired via trade. Jackson was an unsigned, undrafted college player. With no cap or salary cap, Pats could have kept all of those players. Now that would be “Double dipping”.

    “if he released both Solder and Butler would be stuck with the draft as his only option to replace them”

    Nope. He would, (as he has done many times before), would have picked up a player off the street and coached him up. That has always been a part of football. Or he would have just traded them before that season. He does that anyway.

    “As for modern drug testing. It’s a joke. ”

    uh, your proving the point, thanks. imagine what it was like in the 70s and 80s. Romanowski (49ers 2 time SB winner) literally wrote the book on it.

    And nothing on today’s more teams, more specialized players and coaches, more money in the NFL drawings better athletes, better training/nutrition, etc.

  446. las0023 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:39 pm
    LOL You probably think Terry Bradshaw and Jim Plunkett are better than Dan Marino too.

    —————-

    I saw Montana and Marino play. Never saw Bradshaw or Plunkett.
    Marino was a great regular season QB, no doubt, but other than a couple of years, he always seemed to come up small in the post-season.
    For that reason alone, I don’t rate him as high as some of the other QBs of his generation.
    The merits of the argument are for a separate debate.

    Brady said that he doesn’t play the game for Pro Bowls, he plays it for the rings.
    Can’t argue with that.

  447. iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:57 pm

    QBs have always taken the majority of the credit for their team’s success.
    Conversely, they also take the majority of the blame as well.

    ——————————-

    Doesn’t mean it’s true. That’s a media spin.

    I’ve already shown where in 1/3 of Brady’s playoff wins his QB rating was between the 50s-70s.
    And in close to 1/4 of his playoff wins Brady has more turnovers than touchdowns. Yet most here don’t want to even acknowledge this, but are quick to point out any poor playoff game performance by Montana.

  448. Chill_Donahue says:
    February 12, 2019 at 1:08 pm

    imagine what it was like in the 70s and 80s.

    ———————-

    Take a quick read of the book “Snake” by Berry Stainback and you will get a pretty clear picture. The old Raiders had a huge jar of (speed) pills that they called juju beads in the lockeroom before every game. If you look on the sidelines of some of those old Raiders games you can see guys like Marv Hubbard bleeding from his mouth from chewing thru his jaw while he waits to get into the game.

  449. iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 1:09 pm

    I saw Montana and Marino play. Never saw Bradshaw or Plunkett.

    —————————

    If you never saw Bradshaw or Plunkett then you likely missed close to half of Montana’s career as well.
    Bradshaw was starting games up to 1982-’83 and Plunkett was starting them up to 1986.

  450. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 1:41 pm
    iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:57 pm

    QBs have always taken the majority of the credit for their team’s success.
    Conversely, they also take the majority of the blame as well.

    ——————————-

    Doesn’t mean it’s true. That’s a media spin.

    I’ve already shown where in 1/3 of Brady’s playoff wins his QB rating was between the 50s-70s.
    And in close to 1/4 of his playoff wins Brady has more turnovers than touchdowns. Yet most here don’t want to even acknowledge this, but are quick to point out any poor playoff game performance by Montana.

    ————————-

    Perception is reality. You can’t dismiss it as media spin just because it doesn’t help your argument.

    Regarding Brady- he has played 40 playoff games.
    Think about it.
    40 playoff games.
    That’s more than a majority of NFL franchises.
    Of course you are going to be able to cherry pick and find some bad games in there.
    e.g., in SB 53, if he had passed the ball for a 2 yard TD instead of handing off to Sony Michel, his rating would have gone from 71 to 81.
    He passed for 67 of the 69 yards on that drive. But the QB rating formula penalizes him for not passing for the last 2 yards.
    In SB 36 he passed for only 145 yards. But when it was crunch time, he led a 53 yard drive leading to the winning FG.
    That’s what can’t be measured by slavishly looking at QB ratings.
    In every super bowl he’s played, Brady has given his team a 4th quarter (or overtime) lead. And that’s over a sample size of 9 super bowls.
    Much more impressive than 4 super bowls.

  451. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 2:08 pm
    iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 1:09 pm

    I saw Montana and Marino play. Never saw Bradshaw or Plunkett.

    —————————

    If you never saw Bradshaw or Plunkett then you likely missed close to half of Montana’s career as well.
    Bradshaw was starting games up to 1982-’83 and Plunkett was starting them up to 1986.

    ————————

    I came to this country in ’87 and it took me about a year to get into football.
    I watched Montana and Marino starting in ’88.
    So, yes, arguably I missed the best of Montana and possibly of Marino as well.
    Still, what I saw of Marino left me underwhelmed compared to his contemporaries.

    Montana, was the greatest in my mind until SB 51.
    After that performance, I gave the nod to Brady.

    The sheer weight of his accomplishments have tipped the scale for me.
    9 super bowls in 17 years as a starter? That’s just ridiculous.
    With a perennially rotating cast of wide receivers- almost none of whom is going to come within sniffing distance of the HOF.
    It is quite amazing that he has the numbers that he has.

    It’s clear that no one is changing any minds in this debate- so I am not going to try anymore.
    So rather than keep flogging this dead horse, I am going to withdraw from this discussion.
    Cheers.

  452. iceman9999 says:
    February 12, 2019 at 12:57 pm

    Of course you are going to be able to cherry pick and find some bad games in there.

    ————————–

    Cherry picking isn’t taking 1/3 or 1/4 of his career games played in a playoff setting. That’s called breaking down his entire playoff history in finding the bad games.

    Cherry picking is what those posters who take 2 of Montana’s playoff games to say he is terrible vs Belichick or 3 of Montana’s playoff games to use in response to an entire block of Brady playoff games such as what is shown in taking 1/3 of or 1/4 of Brady’s career playoff games.

    Btw, did you know that in over half of Brady’s Super Bowls his offenses averaged a meager 16 points a game. In a couple of those games his defense even had 4 turnovers and 3 turnovers.
    That’s in 5 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls his offense only averaged 16 points a game.

  453. “Btw, did you know that in over half of Brady’s Super Bowls…”

    Half of Brady’s Super Bowls would constitute more than double the number Montana got to with his all star team

  454. ^
    (LOL that came out wrong)
    “Btw, did you know that in over half of Brady’s Super Bowls…”

    Since Brady got to more than double the number of Super Bowls, only half of his Super Bowls would still constitute more than the total number Montana got to with his all star team

  455. finnymcphin says:
    February 12, 2019 at 5:47 pm

    Montana got to with his all star team

    ————————

    Montana played along side 4 other Hall of Famers. Ronnie Lott who was with him for all 4 Super Bowls. Jerry Rice who was with Montana for 2 Super Bowls. And Charles Haley and Fred Dean, who also played with Montana for 2 Super Bowls each. Pretty much any of the 49ers now would have to go thru the Senior’s Committee (1-2 elected in alternating years) to get elected. With currently no 49ers expected to be on the 2019 Senior Committee.

    Brady has already played along side 3 other Hall of Famers. With many of Brady’s teammates (Gronk etc) who would be under consideration not yet 5 years removed from the game. Under consideration this year was Richard Seymour whom Belichick wrote a recommendation letter for. Willie McGinest, Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi are other Patriots finalists for the HOF. Ty Law who was with Brady for 4 Super Bowls. Randy Moss who was with Brady for 1 Super Bowl. Junior Seau who was with Brady for 1 Super Bowl.

    Brady is currently one person away from equaling Montana in HOF teammates and currently has 4 guys knocking on the HOF door with other teammates as future HOF eligibles.

    So you might wanna consider this before labeling Montana as the one with the “all star teams” in a comparison with Brady.

  456. Reminder: Montana’s backup won a SB and led the league in passer rating in all but 2 of his seasons as a starter. Seems to me the system was already in place that allowed both him and Montana to succeed. Compare and contrast with the Patriots who failed to make the playoffs the year that Brady was out and didn’t exactly look like a Super Bowl contender in 16 either until Brady returned.

    Interesting huh? 🙂

  457. Btw, did you know that in over half of Brady’s Super Bowls his offenses averaged a meager 16 points a game. In a couple of those games his defense even had 4 turnovers and 3 turnovers.

    ——
    Too bad Brady couldn’t get the tomato cans that Montana got in the Super Bowl. 🙂

  458. Fun stats:
    Joe Montana played 7 seasons where he won at least 1 playoff game.
    Tom Brady to date has played 6 seasons where he won ALL his playoff games.

    Decent chance Tom ties Montana up a year from now in this comparison.

    🙂

  459. Montana vs Steve Young.

    Maybe we should remember that Steve Young had the benefit of playing with 2 Hall of Fame Wide Receivers for 4 years with the 49ers. Arguably 2 of the 3 greatest WRs (Randy Moss) of all time in Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens. Yet still Young could only get to 1 Super Bowl.

    Young also had the benefit of playing after the 1994 rules changes which were made to specifically enhance the passing game. Scoring went up nearly 10% in ’94 with numerous offensive records broken including receptions, qb rating and single game pass attempts & completions.

  460. Just stopped in to check…

    Yup, goal posts still moving, faster and sadder as it goes along. What’s Joe up to now, like 11 rings and no playoff losses? By the time this is over in here he’ll be undefeated and Brady will be a parking attendant. Meanwhile out in the real world, Brady is the GOAT and Joe is fading fast. Always entertaining to see the patsanoia sufferers twist themselves into knots to do online what their teams can’t do on the field.

  461. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:55 pm
    Yet still Young could only get to 1 Super Bowl.
    —————————————

    So when Montana gets to more Super Bowls than someone THEN number of appearances counts. Interesting that, the hypocrisy knows no bounds. Maybe some Young fan will chime in and tell us if Steve had as many years as a starter in SF as Montana did he’d have another 4 rings.

  462. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:55 pm
    Yet still Young could only get to 1 Super Bowl.
    —————————————

    So when Montana gets to more Super Bowls than someone THEN number of appearances counts.

    ————————-

    Has nothing to do with Joe. And everything to do with the fact that one would be lead to believe that a HOF quarterback (Young) playing with two HOF wide receivers (Rice/Owens ranked #1/#3 statistically all time) for multiple years under the ’94 rules favoring passing would show up in more than just 1 Super Bowl. There is no “appearances”. The fact that there is only 1 is the whole point.

  463. Young also had the benefit of playing after the 1994 rules changes which were made to specifically enhance the passing game.

    ——-
    Young still had passer ratings over 100 in each of the 3 seasons before 1994 after he was named SF starter…. so imo the “benefit” is a bit overstated.

  464. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 12, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Always entertaining to see the patsanoia sufferers twist themselves into knots to do online what their teams can’t do on the field.

    ——————————

    Lifetime Raiders fan. Stabler was my favorite quarterback. No dislike of the Pats here. Have called Belichick the GOAT of coaches numerous times and given Brady his due as my #3 ranked qb of all timne (behind Montana and Staubach).

  465. Fun stats:
    Joe Montana played 7 seasons where he won at least 1 playoff game.
    Tom Brady to date has played 6 seasons where he won ALL his playoff games.

    Decent chance Tom ties Montana up a year from now in this comparison.

    —————————–

    That’s no comparison. The real comparison would be:

    Montana played 4 seasons where he won all his playoff games. Brady played 6.

    Might as well just repeat Brady has 6 SB wins to Montana’s 4.

  466. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:28 pm

    Brady has already played along side 3 other Hall of Famers. With many of Brady’s teammates (Gronk etc) who would be under consideration not yet 5 years removed from the game
    ———————————————–

    So… ‘all star$’ is being interpreted as HoFers and Brady’s opponents who may well get into the HoF didn’t matter earlier in the discussion but teammates who might get considered matter now. Those goal posts don’t just move, they fly.

  467. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 13, 2019 at 8:56 am

    sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:28 pm

    Brady has already played along side 3 other Hall of Famers. With many of Brady’s teammates (Gronk etc) who would be under consideration not yet 5 years removed from the game
    ———————————————–

    So…

    —————–

    The inference was that Montana played with much better players. What don’t you understand about this?

    You wanna count guys who made a Pro Bowl or two or just cut to the chase and point out the HOFers?

  468. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 13, 2019 at 8:56 am

    sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:28 pm

    Brady has already played along side 3 other Hall of Famers. With many of Brady’s teammates (Gronk etc) who would be under consideration not yet 5 years removed from the game
    ———————————————–

    So…

    —————–

    The inference was that Montana played with much better players. What don’t you understand about this?

    You wanna count guys who made a Pro Bowl or two or just cut to the chase and point out the HOFers?

    finnymcphin says:
    February 12, 2019 at 5:47 pm

    Montana got to with his all star team

  469. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 13, 2019 at 8:56 am

    and Brady’s opponents who may well get into the HoF didn’t matter earlier in the discussion

    —————————

    This must be like the earlier discussion where you said Jim Everett and the Rams were better than Joe and the 49ers. And where you hated the 49ers and Montana because Jim Everett was your fav/how Everett should be in the HOF. And how tough Everett was for throwing Jim Rome around.

  470. sigbouncer says:
    February 13, 2019 at 10:20 am

    This must be like the earlier discussion where you said Jim Everett and the Rams were better than Joe and the 49ers. And where you hated the 49ers and Montana because Jim Everett was your fav/how Everett should be in the HOF. And how tough Everett was for throwing Jim Rome around.
    ———————————————————————-

    So now you are down to outright lies. Good luck coming up with that quote, I have never said anything of the sort. In fact I have not referenced the Rams or Jim Everett in connection to Montana at all. Whereas you specifically (and falsely) stated Brady had not faced a HoF or MVP while conveniently ignoring eligibility factors right here:

    sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.

  471. commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 13, 2019 at 11:56 am

    So now you are down to outright lies.

    ———————————-

    You mean like this outright lie you told?

    sigbouncer says:
    February 13, 2019 at 8:51 am

    commentawaitingdeletion says:
    February 12, 2019 at 8:28 pm

    Always entertaining to see the patsanoia sufferers twist themselves into knots to do online what their teams can’t do on the field.

    ——————————

    Lifetime Raiders fan. Stabler was my favorite quarterback. No dislike of the Pats here. Have called Belichick the GOAT of coaches numerous times and given Brady his due as my #3 ranked qb of all timne (behind Montana and Staubach).

  472. sigbouncer says:
    February 6, 2019 at 11:39 am

    Brady has never faced an NFL MVP or Hall of Fame quarterback in a Super Bowl.

    ————————-

    In response to your claim of Montana not having faced anyone in Super Bowls.

    I very clearly wrote Montana faced an NFL MVP or HOF QB in ALL of his Super Bowls (along with a #1 ranked defense).
    Anderson-Esiason reigning MVPs of that Super Bowl year. Elway-Marino HOF QBs.

    So that quote of mine should have read in ALL Super Bowls.

    When you’re responding to 3-4 Pats fans at once (as I was doing) there will occasionally be writing mistakes made. a = ALL

  473. I very clearly wrote Montana faced an NFL MVP or HOF QB in ALL of his Super Bowls (along with a #1 ranked defense).
    Anderson-Esiason reigning MVPs of that Super Bowl year. Elway-Marino HOF QBs.

    ——
    Not really. He played those teams defenses not their QB.

    The 2011 Giants, the worst SB team Brady has had to face to date, would still roll over at least 2 out of the 4 teams Montana beat in the SB. Actually maybe even all 4 teams.

  474. sigbouncer says:

    February 12, 2019 at 12:27 pm

    “I believe Belichick would say it’s easier for him to sustain success today in having the benefit of free agency and compensatory picks awarded vs using basically just the draft”

    =======================

    A version of compensatory picks was around prior to the current free agency structure with the Right of First Refusal And Compensation (’77-’88) rule. And Belichick is more adept at trades and picking up unsigned players than using the draft anyway.

  475. Still waiting on that nonexistent quote of mine about Everett there sig…

    As for my diagnosis of your patsanoia, anyone that fabricates, distorts and lies about Brady as you do certainly qualifies. A few bouquets tossed at Belichick not withstanding, since their obvious intent is to diminish Brady who you disrespect more than a little for someone you consider the 3rd best QB of all time.

  476. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 11:01 am
    fireroger says:
    February 7, 2019 at 1:40 pm

    You seriously want to compare HOFers between the 2 teams?

    —————

    Did I write that? No, I didn’t. I wrote “outstanding players”.
    Why on earth would anyone want to compare HOF players when Montana’s teams have had over 25 years since their last SB win with him? While many of Brady’s teammates are still playing or just recently became eligible and would need 25 years from Brady’s last SB to do a honest/fair comparison.
    ======================
    While we are nitpicking how about we continue to focus on the fact that Montana benefited from the same if not more “outstanding players” as Brady. Brady’s teams were not void of talent. But nobody will (I.e. should) confuse the talent Montana had available to him with that of Brady.

  477. sigbouncer says:
    February 8, 2019 at 11:30 am

    In 8 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 10 ranked defense.
    In 6 of Brady’s 9 Super Bowls they had a top 6 ranked defense.
    Brady Super Bowl defenses have twice ranked #1 overall.
    =======================
    Not sure what stats you are cherry picking here but it sure as heck isn’t regular season total defense.

  478. I very clearly wrote Montana faced an NFL MVP or HOF QB in ALL of his Super Bowls (along with a #1 ranked defense).
    Anderson-Esiason reigning MVPs of that Super Bowl year. Elway-Marino HOF QBs.
    =======================
    The problem with this reasoning is it very clearly (potentially purposefully) omits the fact that Brady faced and beat NFL MVPs and HOF QBs in the post season games leading up to the SB. In other words, penalizing Brady because Montana played in an era where NFL MVPs and HOF QBs were restricted to a handful of teams where the most likely meeting place would have been the SB.

  479. sigbouncer says:
    February 12, 2019 at 7:55 pm
    Montana vs Steve Young.

    Maybe we should remember that Steve Young had the benefit of playing with 2 Hall of Fame Wide Receivers for 4 years with the 49ers. Arguably 2 of the 3 greatest WRs (Randy Moss) of all time in Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens. Yet still Young could only get to 1 Super Bowl.

    Young also had the benefit of playing after the 1994 rules changes which were made to specifically enhance the passing game. Scoring went up nearly 10% in ’94 with numerous offensive records broken including receptions, qb rating and single game pass attempts & completions.
    =========================
    Montana also had Rice, Talyor, Dwight Clark and Roger Craig. The defense was the largest contributing factor to Young only wining one SB. Let’s not continue with unnecessary delusions otherwise. It’s mildly insulting.

  480. 49ersfury says:February 5, 2019 at 11:15 am
    “If Walsh and Montana had 20 years together they would have about 8 Lombardi’s.”

    ==================

    Do you know that Brady has started more regular season games (267) than Joe Montana and Steve Young started games (263) combined?

    In two decades from 1980-1999, the 49ers had two Hall of Fame quarterbacks as starters, one after another. Montana was drafted in 1979 (didn’t become starter until 1980) and Steve Young retired after 1999 season. Brady was drafted in 2000 became a starter in 2001 and up to end of 2018 season, he has played in more regular season games and had more success in the postseason with 6 Super Bowls than Montana and Young combined with 5 Super Bowls.

    I just don’t see how Montana can be better than Brady in shear accomplishment with statistics and wins. In fact Brady is better than those two combined in accomplishment!

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to leave a comment. Not a member? Register now!