Pat Shurmur on lost challenge: “Replay doesn’t overturn much”

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Giants coach Pat Shurmur challenged what appeared to be a clear uncalled pass interference late in Thursday’s loss to the Patriots, but he discovered that in the NFL, what appears to be clear isn’t always what’s called on instant replay.

Shurmur said after the game that he thought he needed to challenge even though Al Riveron and the league’s officiating office have been clear that they’re just not going to change the call on the field on pass interference.

“I thought I had a solid chance to get it,’’ Shurmur said, via the New York Post, “but we see that replay doesn’t overturn much. So, I am not surprised.’’

Giants receiver Golden Tate, who was grabbed by Patriots defensive back Jonathan Jones before the ball arrived, was baffled.

“I’m really unclear what the rule is so I’m hoping we send it into the NFL and they explain to us what they see and what they think and why it wasn’t called,” Tate said.

As former NFL head of officiating Mike Pereira explained on the FOX broadcast, Riveron is only overturning the most flagrantly missed calls.

“We all would agree that that’s pass interference,” Pereira said. “But in replay it’s a different standard.”

It’s such a different standard that there might as well not be replay for interference. Coaches need to know they’re not going to win a challenge.

63 responses to “Pat Shurmur on lost challenge: “Replay doesn’t overturn much”

  1. Memo to coaches and just my opinion. It’s not about “a solid chance of getting it”. I see no need for confusion on this. When in doubt, just remember why PI replay was even installed in the first place.  The last NFC Championship game, an agregious PI missed, it was an obvious black & white miss – that’s it? So if any non called PI mirrors that one? Chances are any coach will win their PI challenge. If there is any shred of grey, even 1% in the video replay, then a PI call is doubtful.

  2. The league is making too much out of replay. Just simplify it (using a version of Belichick’s proposed model):

    1) You get two and only two challenges per game. No getting one back in case of a won challenge.

    2) You can challenge anything (yes anything).

    3) A reply official makes the decision on challenges (in the booth, at league HQ, wherever). No more wasting time with an on-field ref being involved in looking at a screen.

    4) No more automatic replays of turnovers and scores. No more automatic reviews within the two-minute warning. You want reviews then? Save your challenges!

    5) On-field calls are only reversed for something that was clearly and obviously incorrect. If the replay official can’t determine this within 60 seconds, then the on-field call stands.

    Right now, there are too many exceptions, too many “unwritten rules” for challenges. It’s just too complicated and wastes time.

  3. Then why have review at all if officials just get to pick and choose when the rule is broken and when it isn’t. If they are going to have review they need to set a standard and make sure everyone knows what that is.

  4. Al Riverin is a petulant little baby. One of his guys absolutely blew the call in New Orleans in the NFC Championship games do now he is refusing to overturn many calls that should be overturned to protect his guys. Calls are being missed and not overturned. He’s a joke

  5. Giants deserve to lose this challenge, simply for trying it done by 21 points during mop up. time. The implementation so far has shown that most of these calls are bang bang and the refs completely miss it a really small percentage of the time.
    When these coaches have asked for the replay on pass interference it makes them appear petty and bitter. It was a scrappy effort by the Giants tonight. I wish that the Patriots had this defense in SNs 42 and 46.

  6. Leave it to the NFL to find a way to muddy the waters on something that should be black amd white. All other replays are used to adhere to the letter of the law. Now PI replys are focusing on the “intent” of the original call.

  7. Pats fan. This call should have been overridden. Seemed obvious. I understand not changing call if incidental but this was not. Why have this option if this is the standard being applied? What what I’ve seem however, the standard is generally applied consistently.

  8. Jones committed holding and pass interference on the same play. There could have been two flags. I thought it was kind of weird they let that go. Replay is a dark abyss from which there is no return. Abolish it.

  9. Too bad for the Giants that the play in question wasn’t sent to the CFL for review. They seem to know how to review pass interference and would have thrown a flag on that play.
    The NFL’s stance on not calling these type of plays PI will back fire huge once the playoffs start. A coach challenges a play, you have video evidence that PI existed and the officials claim nothing occurred. Sure, what could go wrong there? Hilarious.

  10. Yeah that was bad.

    Had his arms long before the ball got to him.

    So I guess the standard is gonna be just like the missed nfccg call.

    The sad thing about that is the worst non call in the history of sports.

    They are not that bad often. I have only seen one that bad once.

  11. “We all would agree that that’s pass interference,” Pereira said. “But in replay it’s a different standard.”

    Is there no one within the NFL that sees a big problem with this statement? It’s one of the main reasons this form of entertainment is becoming less and less entertaining and long term fans are looking at the NFL in their rear-view mirror.

  12. It clearly looks like this rule was put in to appease the Saints and Sean Peyton, who is on a committee for rule changes.Yes you were robbed, but everyone has been one time or another.

  13. So there is pass interference standard.
    And there is replay pass interference standard.
    They have a ternm for that….. it’s called ‘double standard’.
    In other words unfair.
    And when salaries, coaching, and player positions are on the line having an official double standard isn’t going to be met lying down when the time comes to speak about it.
    The competition committee is going to see some heads explode at the off season meetings.

  14. It’s unfortunate the review process doesn’t allow for a holding penalty to be called. The hold on that play was egregious the PI was of the run of the mill seen it called seen it not variety

  15. To put one arm one the player and stick the other one in to knock the ball down is not PI. It was not enough to over-turn.

    The Giants gor bizarre spot calls all night and that phantom hold on Edelman was a jokw.

  16. This stuff is about as wild and wacky as it gets. It’s not whether or not there was a foul. It’s whether or not a particular ref at a particular time decides whether or not he feels like enforcing the rules, or if he just feels like deciding the outcome of the game by himself. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to find out there’s some dirty money being passed around. Maybe there isn’t, Maybe the league just decided they’re better off having us talk about NFL football all week long, rather than the baseball playoffs or anything else. Here we are, talking NFL. Maybe these guys aren’t as dumb as we think they are.

  17. I’m happy they are discouraging coaches from challenging PI. It was put in there so that something could be done in a situation like the Rams-Saints game. Not to allow for coaches to slow the game down and second-guess every call/non-call on the field. We already have to expect that TDs and turnovers get automatically reviewed, who wants to wait to celebrate a big completion or pass breakup until the coach’s challenge is complete?

  18. It appears the coaches don’t know the rules about replay when it comes to PI. The replay is only there to correct the most egregious missed PI calls like the on in the NFC Championship game last year. It’s not there to challenge and overturn every missed called because there is going to be missed calls in every game. If you go down that rabbit whole than games will take forever because you can call holding and PI almost every play.

  19. They’re clearly not overturning stuff because they want to claim the new rule doesn’t work.

  20. I get the league’s rationale – because like holding on the offensive line, you could call DPI on way too many plays if you strictly followed the letter of the rulebook. Still, allowing a review but rarely granting the call seems wrong. They’re looking at a call, that if made on the field would stand, but since it’s in replay they’re not going to make it. Not a good look.

    Why they didn’t even consider the SkyJudge style official that the AAF used is beyond reason. Today’s NFL.

  21. I guess you can’t expect the sane turnover percentage as your quarterback when talking about replay that much I’ll give you coach

  22. Ha! Good one… Getting the refs to give you a square deal when the Pats are involved? So naive.

  23. Not a fan of either of these teams, but NFL officiating has turned into a clown show. Numerous blown calls or non calls last night. Kind of looking forward to the old school XFL product.

  24. It seems (as many feared) this new rule has created a quagmire.
    That was a classic instance of PI (and holding BEFORE the PI) that SHOULD have (and always was in the past) called.

    But if the “standard” on replay is different and/or the enforcement is entirely subjective then the rule is faulty.

    I would argue it actually has maybe INCREASED DBs getting away with PI. In that game and in others it seems DBs seem to be MORE aggressive with the awareness of “If I don’t get caught and it goes to replay, they won’t overturn it unless it’s “egregious”

    It’s just plain stupid. Either use the SAME standard as you would if you SAW it and properly called it on the replay or don’t have replay at all.

    I think the rule will end up being killed after this season. Just wait until some REALLY important/pivotal play in a game that decides possible playoff fate hinges on a non-call like last night.

    That will result in another Saints-Fans like “uprising” over the injustice of the stupid poor enforcement of the rule.

  25. This Pats fan agrees it was interference albeit minor, but Pats suffered from two worse calls:
    1) Early key Pats’ 4th down got spot over a yard shy. BB smart not challenging as runner’s legs couldn’t be seen but the angle of the guy’s hips (and defender wrapped under him) show knees prob not down before he reaches forward to down the ball’s nose on the line-to-gain.
    2) Pats’ Goal-line TD overturned despite no clear evidence (at all) that front of the ball hadn’t crossed the plane before the runner’s elbow was down. Luckily, Pats punched it in next play.

  26. dfwhawkguy says:
    October 11, 2019 at 8:30 am
    Ha! Good one… Getting the refs to give you a square deal when the Pats are involved? So naive.

    Do people who make these type of comments NOT realize how dumb they are?

    If you’re an adult you should be embarrassed

  27. Flash1287 says:
    October 11, 2019 at 8:48 am

    Do people who make these type of comments NOT realize how dumb they are?

    If you’re an adult you should be embarrassed
    —————————–
    We have see you whine about the refs before. If there is any fanbase that should NOT complain about the refs, it’s the New England Patriots fanbase.

  28. Compare the contact in that one to the OPI call against the Colts last week.
    The league is making it up as they go. Starting to look like they’re manipulating games with this stuff.

  29. A bad spot took away a Patriot 4th down conversion early in the game but we won’t talk about that. 🤫🤫🤫

  30. greymares says:
    October 11, 2019 at 6:30 am
    Didn’t get the call because they were playing the wrong team.
    ===============
    Clearly. Which is why only 7 out of 39 PI reviews have been overturned …..

  31. purplepride11 says:
    October 11, 2019 at 6:32 am
    Then why have review at all if officials just get to pick and choose when the rule is broken and when it isn’t. If they are going to have review they need to set a standard and make sure everyone knows what that is.
    =======================
    IMO it was pretty clear in preseason that the NFL standard was only going to overturn egregious PI calls. If coaches don’t understand that by now that seems like it’s on them. To be fair though I don’t think that standard is being legislated consistently (shocker). Looking at the 7 PI calls that have been overturned so far more than half only flirt with the egregious standard.

  32. “We all would agree that that’s pass interference,” Pereira said. “But in replay it’s a different standard.”

    Pereira need to look up the definition of “standard”. If “everyone agrees” that’s PI, there’s zero reason not to call it.

  33. My prediction is that Riveron will use it in a game to favor the team the league office wants. When it’s overturned it will likely be on a play that is far less obvious than other plays.

    It’s what Goodell wants. Control of outcomes.
    It’s the 100 year season.

  34. What a crock, if it’s a penalty then penalize, the NFL does not care at all, if they get it wrong full speed I get that, but if they review something-get it right or whats the point. The NFL picks a chooses based solely on bias towards certain teams and the are arrogant and its obvious who they favor, it’s time to stop supporting this junk, the owners should band together and refuse to play for a week or two to force the issue and clean this mess up.

  35. The NFL wants PI replay review to be a one year experiment that is deemed to such a failure that nobody wants extended beyond this season. Period. End of Story. I believe that Riveron is operating under orders to discourage coaches from challenging PI calls/non-calls. John Harbaugh, for one, appears to have gotten the message. When asked a few weeks ago why he didn’t challenge what looked like a clear DPI that wasn’t flagged, Harbaugh replied that based on what he’d seen to that point (not just his own challenges but including challenges around the league) that it wasn’t going to be overturned and that it was a waste of a challenge. And that is the point. Time to move on. It’s not going to change.

  36. Thank you Saints and the NFL waisting our time. Can we move on now from this PI fiasco? They upheld that decision before the play was even challenged! For a multi-billion dollar operation, the NFL constantly makes the most awful and dumbest decisions, on and off the field. I mean this witn all sincerity…I honestly think the average 13 year old could do better.

  37. Thank you Saints and the NFL waisting our time. Can we move on now from this PI fiasco? They upheld that decision before the play was even challenged! For a multi-billion dollar operation, the NFL constantly makes the most awful and dumbest decisions, on and off the field.

  38. Is the problem the review process itself or the reviewer? I think it’s obvious that it’s the latter. In addition, I think there should be 3 officials, in NY, reviewing these challenges-2/3 is the consensus. It is too much for 1 person given the ramifications in, for example, the SB.

  39. They were down by 21 with 2 minutes left. Or maybe 4 minutes, same difference. It was pointless. That’s what cost them the game?

    Most calls challenged are factual, ie was the guy in bounds, where was the spot. PI is always a judgement call. You’re asking them to overturn judgement. I thought it was PI but not flagrantly and probably wouldn’t have gotten called 30% of the time. I’ve seen much worse not get called. The guy was trying to go for the ball and I think had a hand on it.

    So find some other excuse. And stop calling challenges with 2 minutes left down 21 points.

  40. rogergoodellmyhero says:
    October 11, 2019 at 8:55 am

    We have see you whine about the refs before.
    ————————————————–

    And we have seen you whining about most everything on just about every Pats thread. Sorry for your Phins because good competition makes for a better season for everyone but not sorry for you

  41. ““We all would agree that that’s pass interference,” Pereira said. “But in replay it’s a different standard.”
    ______________

    That sums it up nicely. And this is the NFL’s problem with a LOT of rules. Same could be said for the catch rule. Or holding. Or roughing the passer. The NFL is full of poorly defined rules that could be penalized on nearly every play but only get flagged occasionally, seemingly at random. It’s so bad guys routinely get fined for actions that weren’t even called as penalties during the game.

  42. I don’t care about either of these teams but if “We all would agree that that’s pass interference” it should probably be pass interference.

  43. I’m a Pats fan. That review showed without a doubt that it was PI. I think what the referees and league administrators are telling coaches is “don’t bother.” Why implement a replay for PI if the officials are just going to ignore what the tape shows? That is a rhetorical question as I believe anyone with a brain knows the answer.

  44. It’s WWE plain and simple. On what Earth was that not PI? We got this rule because of whiny Saints fans and coaches. Thank them for this!

  45. This new replay rule is one of the dumbest things the league has ever done, and that’s saying a lot. What other challenge doesn’t go by the letter of the law but rather whether or not it’s “egregious”? Do they say, “well yes the player was out of bounds when he caught it, but he wasn’t out of bounds enough to overturn it”? Either enforce the damn rule or get rid of it. Preferably the latter. Subjective calls should NEVER be up for replay. Please stop changing rules in a knee jerk and emotion fashion.

  46. After further review it is clear we have no idea what the heck we’re doing…. FIRSSST Dowwwwn!!!

  47. In order for these challenge replays to work fairly the very first thing that has to happen is the head refs in NYC have to be willing to say “hey our refs on the field were wrong” and its become crystal clear they aren’t willing to do that!

  48. I believe the officials are doing a pretty good job under these circumstances. Riverton, not so much!

  49. jimmylikesthat says:
    October 11, 2019 at 7:54 am

    so it would have meant the final score was within 17 and not 21?
    ————————————
    How? The challenged play wasn’t a potential TD or even in field goal range, it would have given the Giants a 1st down somewhere around the Pats 40.

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